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JMU to the DumbBelt
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #61
JMU to the DumbBelt
(11-05-2021 05:40 AM)HyperDuke Wrote:  Two seasons without championship opportunities is a lot more than one season. But I also expected this, so I’m excited about a potential acceleration of joining Sun Belt in 2022 instead of 2023.


I can’t recall…did GMU, VCU, GA State, and ODU give one school year notice or did they give two, like JMU?


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(This post was last modified: 11-05-2021 06:33 AM by Tribal.)
11-05-2021 06:32 AM
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Post: #62
RE: JMU to the DumbBelt
This should be the last year for JMU in the CAA for football. They’ve been in a different league spending-wise for years because of its size and student fees and it has been evident in on field performance. Add a signing class of transfers and freshman expecting a full Sunbelt slate in 2023? They need to go now. The other sports aren’t as affected. The Sunbelt sits somewhere between marginally better and woefully worse in others. All that said, I think the actual bylaw is dumb and misplaced punishment at the feet of the athletes. But, as many have accurately stated, JMU only has issues with it now that it affects them.
11-05-2021 06:44 AM
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JMU2004 Offline
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Post: #63
RE: JMU to the DumbBelt
Pretty shocked to the see the majority of takes here, tbh.

I think if ANY team were to leave the CAA, they would fight for their athletes.

I agree with the last post. Just make a clean separation as soon as possible.
11-05-2021 07:20 AM
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Post: #64
JMU to the DumbBelt
If the plan is to leave in 2 years, why announce now? Why not make a backroom agreement and formally announce next year? I'm sure the Sunbelt's need to promote wouldn't have allowed for it to stay quiet. What's keeping JMU from not officially putting in the leave paperwork till next year and operating business as usual this year even though everyone knows they are leaving?
(This post was last modified: 11-05-2021 07:22 AM by mrjoolius.)
11-05-2021 07:22 AM
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Post: #65
RE: JMU to the DumbBelt
(11-05-2021 05:27 AM)bubbadog57 Wrote:  Just remember that JMU voted for the current rules...they knew this going in to their announced move.

We did know the rules, hence why we worked with the CAA for months instead of letting them know a week ago. We did everything in our power to do things the right way. Our admin gave the CAA extra time to plan their next move, and were told we would get the votes from various presidents, only to have that changed last minute.
11-05-2021 08:10 AM
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Zorch Online
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Post: #66
RE: JMU to the DumbBelt
(11-05-2021 07:22 AM)mrjoolius Wrote:  If the plan is to leave in 2 years, why announce now? Why not make a backroom agreement and formally announce next year? I'm sure the Sunbelt's need to promote wouldn't have allowed for it to stay quiet. What's keeping JMU from not officially putting in the leave paperwork till next year and operating business as usual this year even though everyone knows they are leaving?


Well, besides being sneaky and sleazy, there's this (from the JMU board):


(11-04-2021 02:38 PM)DoubleDogDare Wrote:  It isn't as simple as - logistically progress the conference move while delaying the "announcement." The "announcement" isn't a press conference, its executing contracts with serious legal and monetary impacts. We can't enter into agreements to play certain schools when we are legally bound to play other schools on the same date. I think the only hope is that although the media has said the CUSA to Sun Belt movement for Marshall/ODU/USM is no later than Jul-23, it logistically becomes Jul-22 and JMU only faces a year of penalties for non-football sports.
11-05-2021 08:17 AM
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Zorch Online
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Post: #67
RE: JMU to the DumbBelt
(11-05-2021 07:20 AM)JMU2004 Wrote:  Pretty shocked to the see the majority of takes here, tbh.

I think if ANY team were to leave the CAA, they would fight for their athletes.

I agree with the last post. Just make a clean separation as soon as possible.

Nobody disagrees about fighting for your athletes. That consists of exercising your right to appeal the bylaw to the Board of University Presidents. You did that and it was denied. The problem that I and most others have is that JMU didn't stop there. Instead of gracefully acknowledging the rights of the other members to vote the way they did, JMU took to the twitterverse to air their grievances and try to overturn the vote (hmm, sounds like another recent sore loser...).
11-05-2021 08:22 AM
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Zorch Online
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Post: #68
RE: JMU to the DumbBelt
(11-05-2021 08:10 AM)JMU08 Wrote:  
(11-05-2021 05:27 AM)bubbadog57 Wrote:  Just remember that JMU voted for the current rules...they knew this going in to their announced move.

We did know the rules, hence why we worked with the CAA for months instead of letting them know a week ago. We did everything in our power to do things the right way. Our admin gave the CAA extra time to plan their next move, and were told we would get the votes from various presidents, only to have that changed last minute.

See bold above. JMU people keep saying that. Who were these supposed scoundrels who reneged on their agreement? It's certainly not like JMU to withhold any information (leave any bullets in the chamber), so why haven't those names been announced?
11-05-2021 08:26 AM
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Post: #69
RE: JMU to the DumbBelt
I think that there is a middle ground that provides fairness to both sides. Moving to the Sun Belt does not give JMU any competitive advantage versus other CAA schools as it pertains to the current 2021-22 seasons. If it had been agreed to allow them to be eligible to win CAA championships during this current season, I would have had no problem with that. Perhaps my view on this is colored by the fact that if W&M suddenly announced that they were moving to another conference, I would be crushed that we would not be allowed to play in the 2022 CAA Men's basketball tournament.

The 2022-23 season, however, is an entirely different situation. If the Sun Belt wants JMU so badly, do what it takes to let them have full membership starting next year. It is not the CAA's responsibility to give JMU a soft resting spot during what would really be considered a lame duck season. Heck, it would not bother me if the CAA refused to let them play a conference schedule at all in 2022-23. JMU and the Sun Belt have plenty of time to make the marriage work for 2022-23.
11-05-2021 08:26 AM
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Post: #70
RE: JMU to the DumbBelt
(11-05-2021 08:26 AM)WMTRIBE75 Wrote:  I think that there is a middle ground that provides fairness to both sides. Moving to the Sun Belt does not give JMU any competitive advantage versus other CAA schools as it pertains to the current 2021-22 seasons. If it had been agreed to allow them to be eligible to win CAA championships during this current season, I would have had no problem with that. Perhaps my view on this is colored by the fact that if W&M suddenly announced that they were moving to another conference, I would be crushed that we would not be allowed to play in the 2022 CAA Men's basketball tournament.

The 2022-23 season, however, is an entirely different situation. If the Sun Belt wants JMU so badly, do what it takes to let them have full membership starting next year. It is not the CAA's responsibility to give JMU a soft resting spot during what would really be considered a lame duck season. Heck, it would not bother me if the CAA refused to let them play a conference schedule at all in 2022-23. JMU and the Sun Belt have plenty of time to make the marriage work for 2022-23.

Exactly. I have proposed the same thing. JMU will have to wait two years to play FBS football no matter what, that's the only real problem. According to the JMU faithful, the SunBelt owes them as much worship as the CAA. So shouldn't the SunBelt wlecome them to play all sports except football starting next fall?

Problem solved. But it feels soooo good to cry UNFAIR instead of embracing an actual, sensible solution that involves a simple move by your new conference.
11-05-2021 08:37 AM
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Zorch Online
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Post: #71
RE: JMU to the DumbBelt
(11-05-2021 08:26 AM)WMTRIBE75 Wrote:  I think that there is a middle ground that provides fairness to both sides. Moving to the Sun Belt does not give JMU any competitive advantage versus other CAA schools as it pertains to the current 2021-22 seasons. If it had been agreed to allow them to be eligible to win CAA championships during this current season, I would have had no problem with that. Perhaps my view on this is colored by the fact that if W&M suddenly announced that they were moving to another conference, I would be crushed that we would not be allowed to play in the 2022 CAA Men's basketball tournament.

The 2022-23 season, however, is an entirely different situation. If the Sun Belt wants JMU so badly, do what it takes to let them have full membership starting next year. It is not the CAA's responsibility to give JMU a soft resting spot during what would really be considered a lame duck season. Heck, it would not bother me if the CAA refused to let them play a conference schedule at all in 2022-23. JMU and the Sun Belt have plenty of time to make the marriage work for 2022-23.

I agree that if the CAA Presidents had voted to allow tournament participation this year, then fine. However, they denied it and that is their right.

One thing that many people are overlooking is that the original RTD article by Mike Barber (link re-posted below) says this (emphasis mine):

"The Dukes are expected to formally move to the Sun Belt Conference next year, a move that could be announced as soon as Friday."

So if that is accurate then the Dukes intended to play non-football sports in the Sun Belt in '22-'23 all along! (Which of course makes the present situation even more slimy because it makes the Dukes look like they are trying to have their cake and eat it too by not having any years without tournament participation).

Many JMU posters are telling the Dukes to go ahead and play in the Sun Belt next year -- but if Mike Barber has his facts straight, that was the plan all along.

https://richmond.com/sports/college/caa-...6ac6e.html
11-05-2021 08:43 AM
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Post: #72
RE: JMU to the DumbBelt
(11-05-2021 08:22 AM)Zorch Wrote:  
(11-05-2021 07:20 AM)JMU2004 Wrote:  Pretty shocked to the see the majority of takes here, tbh.

I think if ANY team were to leave the CAA, they would fight for their athletes.

I agree with the last post. Just make a clean separation as soon as possible.

try to overturn the vote (hmm, sounds like another recent sore loser...).

Actually, they served another indictment on that front yesterday so progress being made!
11-05-2021 08:59 AM
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JMU2004 Offline
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RE: JMU to the DumbBelt
(11-05-2021 08:43 AM)Zorch Wrote:  
(11-05-2021 08:26 AM)WMTRIBE75 Wrote:  I think that there is a middle ground that provides fairness to both sides. Moving to the Sun Belt does not give JMU any competitive advantage versus other CAA schools as it pertains to the current 2021-22 seasons. If it had been agreed to allow them to be eligible to win CAA championships during this current season, I would have had no problem with that. Perhaps my view on this is colored by the fact that if W&M suddenly announced that they were moving to another conference, I would be crushed that we would not be allowed to play in the 2022 CAA Men's basketball tournament.

The 2022-23 season, however, is an entirely different situation. If the Sun Belt wants JMU so badly, do what it takes to let them have full membership starting next year. It is not the CAA's responsibility to give JMU a soft resting spot during what would really be considered a lame duck season. Heck, it would not bother me if the CAA refused to let them play a conference schedule at all in 2022-23. JMU and the Sun Belt have plenty of time to make the marriage work for 2022-23.

I agree that if the CAA Presidents had voted to allow tournament participation this year, then fine. However, they denied it and that is their right.

One thing that many people are overlooking is that the original RTD article by Mike Barber (link re-posted below) says this (emphasis mine):

"The Dukes are expected to formally move to the Sun Belt Conference next year, a move that could be announced as soon as Friday."

So if that is accurate then the Dukes intended to play non-football sports in the Sun Belt in '22-'23 all along! (Which of course makes the present situation even more slimy because it makes the Dukes look like they are trying to have their cake and eat it too by not having any years without tournament participation).

Many JMU posters are telling the Dukes to go ahead and play in the Sun Belt next year -- but if Mike Barber has his facts straight, that was the plan all along.

https://richmond.com/sports/college/caa-...6ac6e.html

It may have not been the plan prior to the vote, but you can bet the plan was moved up after the vote. Heck, VCU managed to move in 90 days in 2012. It can be done.
11-05-2021 09:02 AM
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RE: JMU to the DumbBelt
(11-05-2021 08:43 AM)Zorch Wrote:  
(11-05-2021 08:26 AM)WMTRIBE75 Wrote:  I think that there is a middle ground that provides fairness to both sides. Moving to the Sun Belt does not give JMU any competitive advantage versus other CAA schools as it pertains to the current 2021-22 seasons. If it had been agreed to allow them to be eligible to win CAA championships during this current season, I would have had no problem with that. Perhaps my view on this is colored by the fact that if W&M suddenly announced that they were moving to another conference, I would be crushed that we would not be allowed to play in the 2022 CAA Men's basketball tournament.

The 2022-23 season, however, is an entirely different situation. If the Sun Belt wants JMU so badly, do what it takes to let them have full membership starting next year. It is not the CAA's responsibility to give JMU a soft resting spot during what would really be considered a lame duck season. Heck, it would not bother me if the CAA refused to let them play a conference schedule at all in 2022-23. JMU and the Sun Belt have plenty of time to make the marriage work for 2022-23.

I agree that if the CAA Presidents had voted to allow tournament participation this year, then fine. However, they denied it and that is their right.

One thing that many people are overlooking is that the original RTD article by Mike Barber (link re-posted below) says this (emphasis mine):

"The Dukes are expected to formally move to the Sun Belt Conference next year, a move that could be announced as soon as Friday."

So if that is accurate then the Dukes intended to play non-football sports in the Sun Belt in '22-'23 all along! (Which of course makes the present situation even more slimy because it makes the Dukes look like they are trying to have their cake and eat it too by not having any years without tournament participation).

Many JMU posters are telling the Dukes to go ahead and play in the Sun Belt next year -- but if Mike Barber has his facts straight, that was the plan all along.

https://richmond.com/sports/college/caa-...6ac6e.html

So this will open another OOC opportunity next year. Might be worthwhile getting an ACC payday game as our FBS game is at Charlotte.
11-05-2021 09:04 AM
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Post: #75
RE: JMU to the DumbBelt
(11-05-2021 08:26 AM)Zorch Wrote:  
(11-05-2021 08:10 AM)JMU08 Wrote:  
(11-05-2021 05:27 AM)bubbadog57 Wrote:  Just remember that JMU voted for the current rules...they knew this going in to their announced move.

We did know the rules, hence why we worked with the CAA for months instead of letting them know a week ago. We did everything in our power to do things the right way. Our admin gave the CAA extra time to plan their next move, and were told we would get the votes from various presidents, only to have that changed last minute.

See bold above. JMU people keep saying that. Who were these supposed scoundrels who reneged on their agreement? It's certainly not like JMU to withhold any information (leave any bullets in the chamber), so why haven't those names been announced?

JMU constantly withholds information, so not sure where you're getting that impression. I would love to know the names, but similarly when the northern schools united to block Stony Brook and Albany from joining all sports, it took a FOIA request to find out who voted on what. Even though half the schools voted otherwise nobody came out and said a thing. Only thing we got was SB president saying it was ridiculous.
11-05-2021 09:22 AM
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Post: #76
RE: JMU to the DumbBelt
WAVY-TV (Tidewater) just reported the General Assembly has approved JMU’s plan to move to Sun Belt.

https://www.wavy.com/news/local-news/jmu...y-morning/
(This post was last modified: 11-05-2021 11:05 AM by ScottyB757.)
11-05-2021 11:04 AM
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JMU to the DumbBelt
(11-05-2021 08:10 AM)JMU08 Wrote:  
(11-05-2021 05:27 AM)bubbadog57 Wrote:  Just remember that JMU voted for the current rules...they knew this going in to their announced move.

We did know the rules, hence why we worked with the CAA for months instead of letting them know a week ago. We did everything in our power to do things the right way. Our admin gave the CAA extra time to plan their next move, and were told we would get the votes from various presidents, only to have that changed last minute.


JMU was not promised anything by CAA presidents. That doesn’t even have a little truth to it.


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11-05-2021 11:18 AM
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Post: #78
RE: JMU to the DumbBelt
If nothing else, that's certainly more money than FloSports was gonna give them....

https://twitter.com/shane_dnrsports/stat...79079?s=21
11-05-2021 12:07 PM
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Zorch Online
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RE: JMU to the DumbBelt
One thing bugging me about this is how JMU fans keep saying "well, no other conference does it this way". Here's the rebuttal to that.

1. It is irrelevant, both logically and legally, what any other conference is doing. All conferences are separate entities with separate rules. The JMU argument is akin to saying to the VA State Trooper who pulled them over for speeding on I-81: "hey officer, the speed limit on highways in Montana, Nevada, and South Dakota is 80, so I wouldn't have been speeding there".

2. I saw a tweet several days ago that the America East Conference did the same thing as the CAA when Boston University left for the Patriot League several years ago. So, hey, there seems to be at least another league that does it (and see below about what the AE and the CAA have in common but these other leagues mentioned do not).

3. Here's a clue to the JMU fans: IT IS ALL ABOUT MONEY. That is the reason why the Big 12, AAC, and C-USA did not apply similar rules to their departing schools. Take Oklahoma and Texas as an example. They are not leaving until summer 2025. So Oklahoma is very likely to get invited to the NCAA Tournament (or earn the autobid) in '22, '23, '24, and '25. They are likely to play at least 2 games each year. Texas is very likely to do the exact same thing. So that is most probably at least 16 NCAAT games' money that those schools will earn for the Big 12. Then there is football. One of those schools (most likely Oklahoma but it could be either) is likely to be invited to the 4-team playoff at least one of those years, maybe two or more. If they don't go to the CFP then those two schools are very likely to be in the better (read: more lucrative) bowl games. So that also is a ton of money going into the Big 12. The other schools in the conference know all about the gravy train and it is not in their best financial interest to kick out or otherwise impede Ok and Texas in the meantime. Also note that this same scenario applies to the AAC, where Cincinnati, Houston, and Central Florida are all leaving but those are the three currently most successful schools and, until departure, would be the ones bringing in the most money to the conference. The same thing trickles down to C-USA. So the bottom line of this section is that there is big money in those other leagues and penalizing your best members is not financially sound. Obviously there is no money in CAA Football and only one team makes the NCAAT in basketball -- therefore JMU does not and would not bring in any more money there than would any other CAA representative. The CAA is a non-entity in big-time (read: big money) athletics. That is why the CAA can have a different paradigm than the Big Boys. That is what the CAA also has in common with the America East (and quite a few other conferences).

4. It is also likely that the schools in those other conferences are not willing to penalize the deserters because each of those schools secretly or overtly wishes to be just like them. The remaining Big 12 schools might need the Texas or OK vote some day in a future expansion -- so why piss them off. Also, perhaps those conference commissioners have designs or dreams of someday "moving up" themselves, such as from C-USA or AAC to the Big 12 or SEC. So, again, why piss them off. (I would assume that Joey D could not be seriously contemplating any higher leagues).

5. Another reason why maybe the CAA has this bylaw but other conferences do not is because the CAA has already lost NINE schools (counting JMU; Navy, American, ECU, UR, VCU, ODU, GMU, GSU); so perhaps it is more understandable that they would have this bylaw whereas other conferences would not. Also note that one reason to deny tournament participation is because monetary penalties alone are really no deterrent when a school (and its wealthy boosters) have dreams of moving up. By the way, note that the AAC is penalizing Houston (twice) and UCF (once) by not letting them host conference tournaments in non-revenue sports (that is, they don't upset the money train but they do penalize them in sports where there is no money to be made and it doesn't matter which team(s) represent the conference).

So, JMU fans, stop whining about what every other conference does and recognize the fact that what has occurred is allowed by the CAA bylaws that you voted for and previously enforced on others.
(This post was last modified: 11-05-2021 02:52 PM by Zorch.)
11-05-2021 02:44 PM
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RE: JMU to the DumbBelt
This bylaw resulted from ECU's entry to CUSA being delayed a year, so they asked the CAA to stay after having already given their withdrawal notice. The CAA said sure, but you won't be eligible for our championships.

That made sense.

It also made since to enforce it on UR, who was double dealing at a time when the CAA was pursuing a merger with the SoCon. UR said they were on board, and then secretly accepted an A-10 invite. Jim Miller has always had character issues, but that was the first indicator. Tom yeager has some great Jim Miller material.

VCU/GMU/ODU all were less than forthcoming in their exits. I'm not sure if they really cared about being penalized, especially VCU since they exited in 90 days over the summer. GMU announced late in the Spring, and their spring sports were already in the gutter.

ODU was ready for the first bus out of town after VCU/GMU left.
11-05-2021 06:04 PM
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