The big issue facing second tier schools is the move by flagship schools to increase their enrollment. Ohio State now has 61,500+ students on campus in Columbus. In 2000, they only had 35,700. That's where all of the students that would have otherwise gone to Akron or any of the other Ohio MAC schools have gone. And it's a similar story across the country. With the reduction in state support, most flagship schools (really all state schools) have eschewed any semblance of selectivity and rigor and have morphed into revenue seeking entities pumping their enrollment numbers for the tuition/board dollars and to try and stake out what's left of state support. Kids that 20 years ago would've been waitlisted or rejected from the flagship and gone to the secondary school are now getting accepted.

(11-01-2021 11:43 AM)mufanatehc Wrote:  The big issue facing second tier schools is the move by flagship schools to increase their enrollment. Ohio State now has 61,500+ students on campus in Columbus. In 2000, they only had 35,700. That's where all of the students that would have otherwise gone to Akron or any of the other Ohio MAC schools have gone. And it's a similar story across the country. With the reduction in state support, most flagship schools (really all state schools) have eschewed any semblance of selectivity and rigor and have morphed into revenue seeking entities pumping their enrollment numbers for the tuition/board dollars and to try and stake out what's left of state support. Kids that 20 years ago would've been waitlisted or rejected from the flagship and gone to the secondary school are now getting accepted.

Agreed that flagships are increasing enrollment and they’re taking some of the top students that would have attended non-flagships in the past, but *highly* disagree that they’re lowering standards to achieve that here. Ohio State, for example, has actually become *much* more difficult to gain admission to compared to 2000 even while increasing enrollment. Look at Ohio State’s rankings: they’ve zoomed up to where they’re now either in or just outside of the top 50 of the US News Rankings every year. The percentage of students in the top 10% of their high school graduating classes and higher test scores has never been higher. This is happening across nearly all flagships across the country: my kids that will go to college 6 years from now are going to need significantly higher grades and test scores to get into Illinois (or Michigan, Wisconsin, Indiana, Ohio State, etc.) than I did. You can see the same thing in Texas, Florida, the University of California system, etc.

What’s happening in the entire higher education industry is a concentration at the top for higher performing students. It has become a lottery ticket to get into the Ivy League and Ivy-level schools even if you have perfect grades and test scores and that’s coupled with $80,000 per year cost of attendance even if you get in. Private university tuition prices also aren’t very different within the top 100 schools - it costs the same at full price to go to Harvard as it does to go to Syracuse.

As a result, flagship schools are siphoning off top academic kids that would have been admitted to or gone to an Ivy/Ivy-level school in past generations, getting a lot more solid academic out-of-state and international students where they can sell a “name brand degree” at a better price than the non-elite private universities, and grab a greater share of the kids that would have been top of the class at non-flagship universities.

That’s how so many flagships have been able to simultaneously increase enrollment yet still become much harder to gain admission to compared to past years.

(11-01-2021 12:03 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(11-01-2021 11:43 AM)mufanatehc Wrote:  The big issue facing second tier schools is the move by flagship schools to increase their enrollment. Ohio State now has 61,500+ students on campus in Columbus. In 2000, they only had 35,700. That's where all of the students that would have otherwise gone to Akron or any of the other Ohio MAC schools have gone. And it's a similar story across the country. With the reduction in state support, most flagship schools (really all state schools) have eschewed any semblance of selectivity and rigor and have morphed into revenue seeking entities pumping their enrollment numbers for the tuition/board dollars and to try and stake out what's left of state support. Kids that 20 years ago would've been waitlisted or rejected from the flagship and gone to the secondary school are now getting accepted.

Agreed that flagships are increasing enrollment and they’re taking some of the top students that would have attended non-flagships in the past, but *highly* disagree that they’re lowering standards to achieve that here. Ohio State, for example, has actually become *much* more difficult to gain admission to compared to 2000 even while increasing enrollment. Look at Ohio State’s rankings: they’ve zoomed up to where they’re now either in or just outside of the top 50 of the US News Rankings every year. The percentage of students in the top 10% of their high school graduating classes and higher test scores has never been higher. This is happening across nearly all flagships across the country: my kids that will go to college 6 years from now are going to need significantly higher grades and test scores to get into Illinois (or Michigan, Wisconsin, Indiana, Ohio State, etc.) than I did. You can see the same thing in Texas, Florida, the University of California system, etc.

What’s happening in the entire higher education industry is a concentration at the top for higher performing students. It has become a lottery ticket to get into the Ivy League and Ivy-level schools even if you have perfect grades and test scores and that’s coupled with $80,000 per year cost of attendance even if you get in. Private university tuition prices also aren’t very different within the top 100 schools - it costs the same at full price to go to Harvard as it does to go to Syracuse.

As a result, flagship schools are siphoning off top academic kids that would have been admitted to or gone to an Ivy/Ivy-level school in past generations, getting a lot more solid academic out-of-state and international students where they can sell a “name brand degree” at a better price than the non-elite private universities, and grab a greater share of the kids that would have been top of the class at non-flagship universities.

That’s how so many flagships have been able to simultaneously increase enrollment yet still become much harder to gain admission to compared to past years.

Agree, it's been happening everywhere. There's more and more desire on the part of high school students to attend Big State U for a variety of reasons and flagships can be both picky and aggressive in growing enrollment.

(11-01-2021 11:28 AM)_sturt_ Wrote:  Reading the most recent posts of this thread, it's my opinion that it's an over-reaction to speak of Akron (in particular, because I have a faculty member friend there) as "shutting down," as-in shutting doors. But it's an under-reaction to think everything will stay status quo no matter what.

What is plausible is Akron, Kent State and Youngstown (and others?) shrinking programs and eliminating programs so that there is little or no duplication... and with that, lesser enrollment... and with that, shrinking and eliminating athletics programs.

(Probably someone has already essentially said this somewhere in this thread, so pardon if I'm guilty myself of duplication.)

Youngstown should probably be downgraded to a 2 year campus of Kent or Akron. Central State is the school that should be merged into Wright State.

(11-01-2021 12:20 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  

(11-01-2021 12:03 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(11-01-2021 11:43 AM)mufanatehc Wrote:  The big issue facing second tier schools is the move by flagship schools to increase their enrollment. Ohio State now has 61,500+ students on campus in Columbus. In 2000, they only had 35,700. That's where all of the students that would have otherwise gone to Akron or any of the other Ohio MAC schools have gone. And it's a similar story across the country. With the reduction in state support, most flagship schools (really all state schools) have eschewed any semblance of selectivity and rigor and have morphed into revenue seeking entities pumping their enrollment numbers for the tuition/board dollars and to try and stake out what's left of state support. Kids that 20 years ago would've been waitlisted or rejected from the flagship and gone to the secondary school are now getting accepted.

Agreed that flagships are increasing enrollment and they’re taking some of the top students that would have attended non-flagships in the past, but *highly* disagree that they’re lowering standards to achieve that here. Ohio State, for example, has actually become *much* more difficult to gain admission to compared to 2000 even while increasing enrollment. Look at Ohio State’s rankings: they’ve zoomed up to where they’re now either in or just outside of the top 50 of the US News Rankings every year. The percentage of students in the top 10% of their high school graduating classes and higher test scores has never been higher. This is happening across nearly all flagships across the country: my kids that will go to college 6 years from now are going to need significantly higher grades and test scores to get into Illinois (or Michigan, Wisconsin, Indiana, Ohio State, etc.) than I did. You can see the same thing in Texas, Florida, the University of California system, etc.

What’s happening in the entire higher education industry is a concentration at the top for higher performing students. It has become a lottery ticket to get into the Ivy League and Ivy-level schools even if you have perfect grades and test scores and that’s coupled with $80,000 per year cost of attendance even if you get in. Private university tuition prices also aren’t very different within the top 100 schools - it costs the same at full price to go to Harvard as it does to go to Syracuse.

As a result, flagship schools are siphoning off top academic kids that would have been admitted to or gone to an Ivy/Ivy-level school in past generations, getting a lot more solid academic out-of-state and international students where they can sell a “name brand degree” at a better price than the non-elite private universities, and grab a greater share of the kids that would have been top of the class at non-flagship universities.

That’s how so many flagships have been able to simultaneously increase enrollment yet still become much harder to gain admission to compared to past years.

Agree, it's been happening everywhere. There's more and more desire on the part of high school students to attend Big State U for a variety of reasons and flagships can be both picky and aggressive in growing enrollment.

Also agree-happening that way in the South. Perhaps more of those top students at Regional state U are instead going to Enormous State U. And in the big states, top students are spilling into Enormous State U in neighboring states instead of going to Regional state U. Texas and Georgia students that can't get into Texas/Texas A&M/Georgia/Georgia Tech are often going to LSU/Arkansas/Ole Miss/Alabama/Auburn/Tennessee.

(11-01-2021 12:44 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(11-01-2021 12:20 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  Agree, it's been happening everywhere. There's more and more desire on the part of high school students to attend Big State U for a variety of reasons and flagships can be both picky and aggressive in growing enrollment.

Also agree-happening that way in the South. Perhaps more of those top students at Regional state U are instead going to Enormous State U. And in the big states, top students are spilling into Enormous State U in neighboring states instead of going to Regional state U. Texas and Georgia students that can't get into Texas/Texas A&M/Georgia/Georgia Tech are often going to LSU/Arkansas/Ole Miss/Alabama/Auburn/Tennessee.

So much this. And this is after A&M has grown to 69K total students/51K undergraduates.

SEC schools recruit my kids' high school hard, often waiving out-of-state tuition. They can get the same Big State Flagship School experience without having to meet the admission standards of UT or A&M. And they can return to Texas for work after they graduate.

(11-01-2021 12:03 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(11-01-2021 11:43 AM)mufanatehc Wrote:  The big issue facing second tier schools is the move by flagship schools to increase their enrollment. Ohio State now has 61,500+ students on campus in Columbus. In 2000, they only had 35,700. That's where all of the students that would have otherwise gone to Akron or any of the other Ohio MAC schools have gone. And it's a similar story across the country. With the reduction in state support, most flagship schools (really all state schools) have eschewed any semblance of selectivity and rigor and have morphed into revenue seeking entities pumping their enrollment numbers for the tuition/board dollars and to try and stake out what's left of state support. Kids that 20 years ago would've been waitlisted or rejected from the flagship and gone to the secondary school are now getting accepted.

Agreed that flagships are increasing enrollment and they’re taking some of the top students that would have attended non-flagships in the past, but *highly* disagree that they’re lowering standards to achieve that here. Ohio State, for example, has actually become *much* more difficult to gain admission to compared to 2000 even while increasing enrollment. Look at Ohio State’s rankings: they’ve zoomed up to where they’re now either in or just outside of the top 50 of the US News Rankings every year. The percentage of students in the top 10% of their high school graduating classes and higher test scores has never been higher. This is happening across nearly all flagships across the country: my kids that will go to college 6 years from now are going to need significantly higher grades and test scores to get into Illinois (or Michigan, Wisconsin, Indiana, Ohio State, etc.) than I did. You can see the same thing in Texas, Florida, the University of California system, etc.

What’s happening in the entire higher education industry is a concentration at the top for higher performing students. It has become a lottery ticket to get into the Ivy League and Ivy-level schools even if you have perfect grades and test scores and that’s coupled with $80,000 per year cost of attendance even if you get in. Private university tuition prices also aren’t very different within the top 100 schools - it costs the same at full price to go to Harvard as it does to go to Syracuse.

As a result, flagship schools are siphoning off top academic kids that would have been admitted to or gone to an Ivy/Ivy-level school in past generations, getting a lot more solid academic out-of-state and international students where they can sell a “name brand degree” at a better price than the non-elite private universities, and grab a greater share of the kids that would have been top of the class at non-flagship universities.

That’s how so many flagships have been able to simultaneously increase enrollment yet still become much harder to gain admission to compared to past years.

This is why it makes more sense to me that Tosu would acquire one or more of the 4 NE Ohio universities ... to have a physical presence in the most populous quadrant of the state from which they are already drawing a third of their students, taking some overcrowding pressure off their main campus.