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Ark.'s opinion of anti-war folk
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WizardRebel Offline
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Post: #21
 
JBR, how in the hell am I claiming higher moral ground by saying that I know somebody in the military? Again, you're twisting my words to mean what YOU want them to mean. You're more than qualified to give your opinion, as I am qualified to disagree with it.

I've read all of the stats on crime, homelessness, marriage, divorce, etc...anything current, I know what's going on. I don't argue something I haven't researched. I could carry this on for months with you if necessary, but considering all of the things I've got going on careerwise, I'm just not going to devote the time to it.

Oh yes, and if this country "ain't what it's cracked up to be," then let me say this, and don't take this personally...but get the hell out!

As the great talk show host Ken Hamblin once said, "if you can find a better country in which to live, go on."

WR



<!--EDIT|WizardRebel|Mar 31 2003, 10:21 PM-->
03-31-2003 05:13 PM
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WizardRebel Offline
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Post: #22
 
joebordenrebel Wrote:And I know how thankful I should be to be a "liberal google" (whatever in the hell that is)
I said you're wearing "liberal goggles." You might re-read the phrase in the original post.

WR
03-31-2003 05:17 PM
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GDawgs88 Offline
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Post: #23
 
joebordenrebel Wrote:This country ain't all it's cracked up to be.
Then why are you living here?
03-31-2003 05:42 PM
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GDawgs88 Offline
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Post: #24
 
And those stupid comics are nothing but left-wing propaganda.
03-31-2003 05:43 PM
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Reb32 Offline
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Post: #25
 
My,my,my................getting kind of heated around here. You boys play nice or I'll make you take your toys and go home.
JBR, your wrong on all accounts.........'nuff said!!!
03-31-2003 06:54 PM
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WizardRebel Offline
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Post: #26
 
Reb32 Wrote:My,my,my................getting kind of heated around here. You boys play nice or I'll make you take your toys and go home.
But it's MY TONKA TRUCK DAMMIT!!!!!! 03-lol 03-lol 03-lol

WR
03-31-2003 07:32 PM
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USMC Offline
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Post: #27
 
here's a great poem that fits this discussion nicely. wrote by a Marine who is fighting the good fight right now:


Wish you were here

For all the free people that still protest

your welcome, we protect you,

and your protected by the best.

Your voice is strong and loud

but who will fight for you

no one standing in your crowd.

We are fathers, brothers and sons,

wearing the boots and carrying the guns.

We are the ones that leave all we own,

to make sure future is carved in stone.

We are the ones who fight and die,

we might not be able to save the world,

well, at least we try.

We walked the paths to where we are at,

and we want no choice other than that.

so when you rally you're group to complain,

take a good look in the back of you're brain.

In order for that flag you love to fly,

wars must be fought and young men must die.

We came here to fight for the ones we hold dear,

if thats not respected, we would rather stay here.

So please stop yelling and put down your signs,

and pray for those behind enemy lines.

When the conflict is over and all is well,

be thankful that we chose to go through hell.

Corporal Joshua Miles and all the boys from

3rd. Battalion, 2nd Marines, Kuwait
03-31-2003 08:00 PM
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NewspaperRebel Offline
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Post: #28
 
Reb32 Wrote:My,my,my................getting kind of heated around here. You boys play nice or I'll make you take your toys and go home.
You're not going to take my Erector Set are you?

:angel:
03-31-2003 08:01 PM
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10MAN Offline
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Post: #29
 
WizardRebel Wrote:Oh yes, and if this country "ain't what it's cracked up to be," then let me say this, and don't take this personally...but get the hell out!

As the great talk show host Ken Hamblin once said, "if you can find a better country in which to live, go on."

WR
And that is the ultimate bottom line for all of these bleeding-heart liberal goobers bi*ching about America and what She is doing. You don't like it, you know where the door is and ain't a damn soul keeping you here.

JBR, I respect your opinion, as I think we all do but I share all the others' feeling that, "You are very wrong in this". I admire the fact that you want peace and love and harmony for all, but face the facts Brother, there are people in this world that want us dead...yes you too. And just going around begging for peace ain't gonna get it done. Peace will not come without sacrifice.
03-31-2003 08:27 PM
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GDawgs88 Offline
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Post: #30
 
10MAN Wrote:Peace will not come without sacrifice.
04-cheers04-cheers04-cheers04-cheers
03-31-2003 08:32 PM
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LRRebel Offline
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Post: #31
 
JBR, I too respect your opinion, but the last post summed it up - peace doesn't come without sacrifice. I wish it did, but it doesn't...
03-31-2003 08:33 PM
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10MAN Offline
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Post: #32
 
joebordenrebel Wrote:And can anybody give me one good reason why we're over there?
Yeah, I can give you several.....
[Image: plane_hits.jpg]
Remember that?
[Image: pentagon_burns.jpg]
Or this?
[Image: pennsylvania_crash.jpg]
How 'bout the one that went down in PA? Starting to come to ya yet?


Let's see! 3,031 people died in all of this and you only want one reason? I think I've given you 3,030 additional reasons!
Not to mention....the USS Cole attack, numerous US embassy attacks, the previous World Trade Center attack, and many others. But let's just sit back and hope those bad guys leave us alone.

By the way, isn't that the Confederate BATTLE Flag you have sported in your avatar? Hmm...Makes one wonder.
03-31-2003 09:11 PM
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bigolhawg Offline
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Post: #33
 
Iraq didnt launch those terrorist attacks. Iraq played a minor role, and that role was one of indifference toward what was going on in their country. Saying that Iraq caused those terrorist attacks is just picking and choosing what you want to believe. We know that Osama was the one in charge, and that he is still at large.

If any entity is going to be targeting for revenge outside of the Taliban, it should be Saudi Arabia, the nation where those terrorists came from. But the Saudis are longtime U.S. allies, so we would never go after them.
03-31-2003 10:18 PM
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WizardRebel Offline
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Post: #34
 
So financially backing Osama and Al Queda for the 9/11 attacks is a "minor role?"

WR
03-31-2003 10:24 PM
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MADREBEL Offline
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Post: #35
 
[quote="bigolhawg"][quote="10MAN"]By the way, out of curiosity I asked a bartender in Oxford last night, who is also a student, what the opinion among OM students were about this war.
04-01-2003 12:40 AM
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MADREBEL Offline
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Post: #36
 
joebordenrebel Wrote:Yeah, we should be the only bullies on the block with nuclear devices! Thanks for making that all clearer to me now. I'm completely awake because of lucid thinking Americans like you, Wiz.

We don't need troops to gas our people. We just let them wander homeless and starve in the middle of the richest country on earth. What a benevolent people we are. I marvel at our perfection and splendor every day.

How is terrorizing a terrorist country going to stop terrorism again? I missed that part of American Indocrination er uh Civics class. :eek:
AW COME ON ,YOUR BREAKING MY HEART !03-puke EXACTLY HOW MANY HOMELESS PEOPLE HAVE YOU HELPED, AND HOW DID YOU HELP THEM?
04-01-2003 12:48 AM
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georgew Offline
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Post: #37
 
You guys are missing the picture here. When you wish only to see the imperfections of the country, that's all you will ever see.
When you wish the govt. to be some benevolent benefactor lifting all the poor and downtrodden from every conceivable quagmire, you have lost touch with reality, or never had it to start with.
I wish all those that think the govt can do it all for everyone, would just go ahead and have a 100% payroll deduction from their income, evenly distribute all their assets, and then see if they have made an impact on society!
Of course the answer will be a resounding NO!!!!! There are people who will never be productive because they are leechs(period). They prefer your assets as opposed to building their own. Then there are those that are incapable, those are the ones we wish to reach but can't seem to because of the leechs. W have the STUPID that wish to blast every effort made by those that wish to help by training and instruction, not offering free rides to leechs.
I'm no world traveler but I have been in countries that have offered free everything and you know what, their system sucks!!!!! The average citizen is better of as one of the leechs I spoke of earlier. Their govt is weak because the people are weak. Go to France, England or Switzerland, you would be surprised that you can't have a/c in a Swiss Hotel till after a certain date in the spring. That's contolling! Now go to some of the so-called third world countries and you will find people in the same shape as those oppressed by taxation in the so-called more civilized countries.
You have to accept a medium point! If you can't stand it here, you won't be able to stand it anywhere! :bang:
04-01-2003 10:18 AM
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REBstill Offline
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Post: #38
 
Osama, Saddam, Kadafi - all of them are linked together. They all hate free enterprise - they hate America and what it symbolizes. They all want to see America fall. They are like the 3 Stooges. They use the same tactics - have total disregard for human life. They butcher their own people, women and children.

We have to be there because no one else will stand up to them. Maybe it seems like bullying and stupid to some. We are intervening because we believe in the long run it will make for a safer existance for them (their people) and ours. It is our heritage to stand up for the weaker folks and battle the oppressors. It is the same reason why I will speak up and stand against a whole group of men in defending the honor of my wife, protect my children. I have stepped in and defended someone getting the crap beat out of them. My conscience will not allow me to stand by and watch...I'm not the "baddest" dude that ever lived but have wouldn't be much of a man if I didn't fulfill my role as a husband, father and as a MAN! In essence, I think that is what America is doing. Patriotic or not, bold and stupid, totally wrong and immoral....I don't know. I think it is the patriotic, smart, bold and moral thing to do in being in Iraq. It has to do with the way I was raised and what I believe personally.
04-01-2003 10:46 AM
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joebordenrebel Offline
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Post: #39
 
Geov Parrish
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03.31.03

The six day war
Why America has already lost its war against Iraq

Historians won't call this The Six Days' War; that name belongs to another Middle Eastern military rout with far-reaching consequences.

But by last Wednesday, the outcome of George Bush's invasion of Iraq was decided. The only remaining unknowns are how many months or years it will take America and Britain to figure out that they have already lost, and how many people will die in the interim.

From the beginning, Bush Administration rationales for this invasion have been based on the premise that Americans (and their faithful canine companions, the Brits) would be welcomed with open arms by both Iraqi civilians and soldiers. Once the prospect of life without Saddam appeared truly at hand, the Iraqi tyrant's brutal house of cards would collapse. Whole divisions, whole cities, would surrender without a shot. The war would last not much longer than it would take to drive to Baghdad (albeit on lousy roads), and the victory parade in Baghdad would make Paris at V-Day look tame. Some Bushites took the notion even farther; as with post-war Europe, all the Middle East would come to adore America, ushering in an era of peace and prosperity for all.

As Gilda Radner might once have said:

Never mind.

It was evident by the middle of last week, and has become increasingly evident each day since -- even through the muddle of U.S. media coverage and frantic spinning in Washington and London -- that Iraqis do not want the Americans in their country. Period. We are not welcome. Even if it means keeping Saddam. Even if it means guerilla war against a military using overwhelming force. Iraqis will not simply give up; nor will they spontaneously rise and do America's work for it by toppling Saddam Hussein. It seems to have never occurred to Bush and his advisors that people who hate Saddam wouldn't automatically welcome America -- that not everyone casts their loyalties in black and white, "with us or against us," enemy-of-my- enemy-is-my-friend thinking.

This represents more than a military inconvenience to the American forces. It means more than a loss of the war's purported rationale. What it means is that even with all the firepower in the world -- especially with all the firepower in the world -- the United States cannot win this war. The Pax Americana that Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle, and their ilk envisioned for Iraq -- and eventually the whole region -- simply cannot be achieved through brute force alone. That's what we're starting to see already.

Amazingly, Pentagon planners seemed to be caught flat-footed by the guerrilla tactics employed by the Iraqis -- tactics which are the only conceivable means of opposition for a resistance with no air power, with few resources, and that knows it cannot possibly compete with the Americans' firepower -- but knows the land like the back of its hand and has been thinking about, and practicing, how to defend it in wartime for over 20 years. Donald Rumsfeld's bellowing about Iraq's unfair tactics evokes the British, 225 years ago, complaining that the Yanks didn't stand in a row and fight like the Redcoats did.

Meanwhile, Rumsfeld -- and Bush -- deserve to lose their jobs based on the military planning alone. Forget, for a moment, the complete evaporation of all of the other original rationales for this war. Forget that no weapons of mass destruction have been found, and the purported threat of further terrorist attack against the U.S. has yet to materialize.

Because Iraqis don't want to be "liberated" by the U.S., in only a week, the 30-70,000 troops on the ground inside Iraq have been shown to be a much, much smaller force than is necessary to seize Iraq's cities. Even that size force, in only a week, was in many places running out of food, water, gas, and/or bullets -- a completely avoidable logistical nightmare.

The widespread expectation that conquering Iraq would be a military cakewalk, with only minor and manageable resentments by the natives afterwards, has colored every facet of the United States' preparation in the long months leading up to this invasion. The same arrogance that led pundits like Bill O'Reilly mocking guests who didn't think the war would be over in days or even hours, and that led the Pentagon's spin doctors to invite blow-dry reporters along for a joy ride, seems to have generated an invasion plan predicated on the idea that the invasion would be over as soon as the Americans showed up.

The war thus far has been notable for one other element -- the extraordinary measures the Pentagon has, in fact, taken thus far to avoid civilian casualties. This has been more than PR spinning; the U.S. really has undertaken a fundamental shift in military strategy, relying on its surveillance capabilities and precision weaponry and not simply unloading "Shock and Awe" type tonnage on Iraq's cities. Ground troops have, in fact, thus far mostly avoided Iraq's cities.

Three major factors have likely gone into this shift. One is that the U.S. intends to run Iraq after it topples Saddam, and would like to both not have to rebuild more than necessary and not offend its new vassals more than necessary. Secondly, the enormous global opposition to this war -- including the opposition here at home -- has likely had an impact. Washington would clearly not like to exacerbate anti-American feelings even more through wholesale slaughter of civilians.

But most importantly, the Americans aren't incinerating vast sections of Iraq's cities and towns because they didn't think they needed to. That could change, and soon. The Americans weren't wanting and won't tolerate lengthy sieges, or holding their fire as sitting ducks in a hostile land. Eventually they'll start unleashing the bigger guns.

Meanwhile, Iraqis living in Jordan and other Middle Eastern countries -- people who, by and large, hate Saddam Hussein with a passion -- are flooding back to defend their country against the Western invaders. Other Muslims and Arabs from throughout the region are starting to join them; already, American officials are warning Syria and Iran (and Russia) about the military weapons and supplies finding their way into Iraq. The murmurings of a broader regional war are barely audible -- or at least a tacit understanding, transcending colonial borders, that the Americans must be driven out. Regardless of whether Baghdad "falls" or the Americans install a replacement government, the resistance will continue until the Americans can find a graceful way to leave.

After only a week, British soldiers were already talking about the similarity between their encirclement of Southern Iraq towns and their experiences in Northern Ireland, where every civilian coming and going must be searched, the locals know the land and the hiding places, and the attacks keep coming anyway. The difference is that Iraq, unlike Northern Ireland, is a desperately poor country where disease and famine already lurk; the privations of wartime threaten to make that bad situation far worse.

Bush's folly wasn't supposed to turn into a Persian version of "Red, White, and Blue Dawn." Now that it is under way, there will be enormous pressure to escalate the military tactics, to discard the caution regarding civilian casualties, to push for the sort of "decisive" military victory our MBA President promised in his prospectus.

But it would be a mistake -- not only for the tremendous loss of life it would cause, and not only because of the global anti-American sentiment it would fuel, but because it would not, in the end, do any good. Somehow, George Bush was so busy invoking World War II that he forgot not only Vietnam, but the lessons of his own administration in Afghanistan. The U.S. managed to rout the Taliban and its rag-tag Army from power, but only 15 months later, it barely controls the capital city and has let the rest of the country slide back into civil war.

With oil resources at stake, the rest of the Muslim world enraged, and America's post-9/11 moral capital forgotten, it's hard to imagine that Iraq will turn out better. Even the most likely scenarios in which Saddam Hussein loses power are ugly: ever-increasing casualties, mostly among civilians, in a protracted Ba'Athist guerilla war; or, Iraq splintering into multiple nation-states or a multi-sided civil war; or, an expanded regional conflict involving Syria, Iran, other Muslim forces, and/or Israeli or Palestinian supporters attempting to draw Israel more directly into the conflict.

Meanwhile, the oil fields are vulnerable to attack; the whole operation is staggeringly expensive; and Bush himself will be under increasing pressure, as an election nears, to answer for his handling of both military and economic matters. And bear in mind that we're only 10 days into this one. With war comes surprises, and most of the imaginable ones aren't good.

The bottom line is that the long-term danger to American security, and damage to America's political and economic standing in the world, is likely to continue to rise so long as American forces are in Iraq. The danger and the damage will only subside when we leave.

And all because we thought they'd love us.
04-01-2003 11:34 AM
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georgew Offline
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Post: #40
 
Re: Playing golf in a thunderstorm, putt
by: nighthawkband (42/M/Chesapeake, VA) 04/01/03 12:29 pm
Msg: 1464 of 1465

wet fingers in an electrical socket, driving while intoxicated and being a human shield have to be the worst things an individual can do to shorten his/her life span.
===============================================
Here's a few more...
1. Having sex with a gay Haitian monkey.
2. Smoking while soaking your feet in gasoline.
3. Holding up a Dunkin Donuts at 6:00am with an unloaded pistol.
4. Eating 5 Wendy's triples a week for 5 years.
04-01-2003 12:29 PM
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