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UMass should try to get into the MAC for all sports.
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esayem Offline
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Post: #21
RE: UMass should try to get into the MAC for all sports.
(10-06-2021 10:20 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  The solution to "What's Wrong With School X" is never "School X should join a conference with teams that none of its fans care about."

UMass made a huge mistake going FBS. When you make a huge mistake, you don't double down on it by further alienating your fans. No, the A-10 isn't what it was when UMass was in its heyday in the 90's as a northeast based multi-bid conference. But it is still a multi-bid conference. And there are still teams in the A-10 that UMass's fans care about.

I would also question why UMass football is automatically better off in the MAC than it is as an independent. It isn't going to win games in either scenario, it isn't going to draw fans in either scenario, it isn't going to make money in either scenario. So why rearrange those deck chairs and make all of your other sports worse off?

Well, you would know more than I do since I live in the south and you’re a Maine guy, but I have a few questions.

Why would they be worse off? Both western NY and Ohio are firmly A10 territory. Hell, St. Louis is A10 territory all the way over to Virginia and North Carolina. I don’t see travel being an issue for the MAC or C-USA considering there is some combination of schools in those leagues that are also in the A10 footprint.

Marshall, UCF, and Temple (fb-only) stretched the footprint but all have used MAC membership to move up the totem poll. Now UB is being hailed as an AAC replacement, a conference UMass openly covets joining.

The aforementioned playoff money of being in a conference would be attractive. How does that stack up against Independent status w/ buy games and the A10 money? Not sure, but buy games will be there either way.

I don’t think going FBS was a mistake. The mistake was hiring an AD that fired two coaches with UMass roots and replaced them with unproven coaches. Look at the records of their current revenue producing sports. Abysmal. That starts and ends with coaching.
(This post was last modified: 10-06-2021 10:48 AM by esayem.)
10-06-2021 10:46 AM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #22
RE: UMass should try to get into the MAC for all sports.
(10-06-2021 08:40 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  ... The contract was written to allow the MAC to expel UMass after 4 years if it wanted so it did. It was willing enough to give UMass a shot all sports with JMU but UMass didn't want to do it. ...

To be more precise, the contract was written to allow the conference to give UMass a choice between joining as a full member or leaving, if Temple left, but with minimum four years after joining.

So the time of the willingness "to give UMass a shot all-sports" was, in fact, when the contract with Temple was renewed and the contract with UMass signed. When UMass was actually given the show, the MAC was simply respecting the terms of the contract.

I don't see that UMass at this point in time would be better joining the MAC in FB than playing as an independent.

The only team that UMass fans would have cared about playing in FB when UMass decided to join that MAC would have been Temple, who left the day that UMass joined. So objectively, the main difference is that a 7-5 MAC team can have a lot of confidence of going bowling and a 6-6 MAC team has a shot, while UMass would be hanging on how many bowl eligible schools there are and whether under the rules at the time a winning UMass side has to be taken before a 5 win team.

But right now, that's just a hypothetical. If UMass gets to the point where that's an issue, they can worry about it then.
(This post was last modified: 10-06-2021 11:49 AM by BruceMcF.)
10-06-2021 11:43 AM
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Post: #23
RE: UMass should try to get into the MAC for all sports.
(10-06-2021 09:26 AM)UpStreamRedTeam Wrote:  
(10-05-2021 08:50 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  If I'm UMass, there is absolutely no way I want to have all sports in the MAC, and there are many reasons for this. The MAC is a fine league, very stable and with lots of solid rivalries and history. But UMass basketball works well in the A10.

Does UMass basketball work well in the A-10? They have only on tournament appearance this century, and if you take out their run from 92-98 during Calipari’s time (plus the two years after he left) UMass hasn’t been to the tournament since 1962. Calipari’s run was so good I think it clouds our entire perception of UMass basketball.


I suppose it works well, specifically, for travel, rivalries and fan interest. I could be wrong.

As a Memphis fan, I would be fine with the AAC adding UMass because the Minutemen hoops program offers a solid history and UMass is a "basketball school." I'm in the minority compared to most AAC fans.
10-06-2021 12:35 PM
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Post: #24
RE: UMass should try to get into the MAC for all sports.
(10-06-2021 10:20 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  I would also question why UMass football is automatically better off in the MAC than it is as an independent. It isn't going to win games in either scenario, it isn't going to draw fans in either scenario, it isn't going to make money in either scenario.

UMass could win games in the MAC. No, they wouldn't walk in and dominate, but at least they'd have eight games on their schedule where they aren't completely outmatched.

I'd compare it to Temple's affiliation with the MAC years ago. The Owls came in an absolutely terrible football program. When they left for the American Athletic, the Owls were winning some football games, and the future was much brighter.
10-06-2021 12:53 PM
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ccd494 Offline
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Post: #25
RE: UMass should try to get into the MAC for all sports.
(10-06-2021 10:46 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(10-06-2021 10:20 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  The solution to "What's Wrong With School X" is never "School X should join a conference with teams that none of its fans care about."

UMass made a huge mistake going FBS. When you make a huge mistake, you don't double down on it by further alienating your fans. No, the A-10 isn't what it was when UMass was in its heyday in the 90's as a northeast based multi-bid conference. But it is still a multi-bid conference. And there are still teams in the A-10 that UMass's fans care about.

I would also question why UMass football is automatically better off in the MAC than it is as an independent. It isn't going to win games in either scenario, it isn't going to draw fans in either scenario, it isn't going to make money in either scenario. So why rearrange those deck chairs and make all of your other sports worse off?

Well, you would know more than I do since I live in the south and you’re a Maine guy, but I have a few questions.

Why would they be worse off? Both western NY and Ohio are firmly A10 territory. Hell, St. Louis is A10 territory all the way over to Virginia and North Carolina. I don’t see travel being an issue for the MAC or C-USA considering there is some combination of schools in those leagues that are also in the A10 footprint.

Marshall, UCF, and Temple (fb-only) stretched the footprint but all have used MAC membership to move up the totem poll. Now UB is being hailed as an AAC replacement, a conference UMass openly covets joining.

The aforementioned playoff money of being in a conference would be attractive. How does that stack up against Independent status w/ buy games and the A10 money? Not sure, but buy games will be there either way.

I don’t think going FBS was a mistake. The mistake was hiring an AD that fired two coaches with UMass roots and replaced them with unproven coaches. Look at the records of their current revenue producing sports. Abysmal. That starts and ends with coaching.

1. The A-10 isn't really as spread out as people make it out to be. There are three geographic outliers in the A-10, outside the northeast/ACELA corridor: Dayton, Saint Louis, and Davidson.

In the MAC, Buffalo is reasonably in the northeast. The next closest school to UMass would be Kent State, about 580 miles away. 8 of 11 A-10 schools are closer to UMass than the second closest MAC school.

That matters, and not just for travel for your athletic teams. UMass's alumni network is in the stretch from DC to Boston. You've got opponents in NYC, Philadelphia, and DC. This hasn't been treated like it matters in conference realignment by people who just point to TV contracts, but it does. You want to play where your fans are, and you want to play schools your fans care about. Spending basketball season playing and traveling to Kent State, Bowling Green, and Ball State is a recipe for apathy.

2. I don't understand how the playoff money would move the needle at all. Every other school in the MAC would be getting the same money (or more if there was a delay in UMass' eligibility to receive a share). UMass would just have to pour that money into football to keep up with the Joneses. It wouldn't help UMass basketball get things straightened out, it wouldn't entice people to come watch football (UMass tried playing MAC schools and no one came to watch). My first rule of college sports realignment should be "Fans aren't going to buy tickets or concessions to sit in the stands and watch your bank account grow."

3. UMass' AD is also the one who hired a hockey coach that led UMass to a national title in its second most important sport.

4. Going FBS was absolutely a mistake. Just because football drives the boat at most schools down south doesn't mean it needs to in New England. Fans of schools in New England have proven time and time again they aggressively do not care about their schools' football teams.

UMass was 129th in attendance in 2019. UMass has had three home games this year: 12,118 against the most local P5 rival possible (BC), 7,012 against Eastern Michigan, and 9,456 against Toledo. Those would not be out of place in the CAA.

So, no one comes to the games. The team loses an embarrassing amount of games. The program loses money hand over fist.

Other than that, going FBS in football was a great idea!
10-06-2021 12:54 PM
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Post: #26
RE: UMass should try to get into the MAC for all sports.
(10-06-2021 08:59 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(10-06-2021 06:48 AM)RamblinRedWolf Wrote:  As an outsider looking in, UMass has to be among the most Ill-conceived move ups in the modern CFB era. Looking back, it seems they had no real plan as to where they were going to go once at the FBS level (their stadium situation between playing at Foxborough and getting their on campus stadium renovated seemed absolutely half-@$$ed) and while the MAC may not have been ideal landing spot gotta think their program would be better off in being in a stable conference rather trying to maintain independence andA10

What surprises me around the northeast indy schools like UMass, UConn and Army to get into a FB conference just to get a cut of the CFP money. Especially when BYU is no longer independent to help lead the charge for independent access to the playoff.

The MAC would definitely expand for Army FB and could pair with UConn FB which while weak would have upper level facilities for the MAC. They could take a half cut from the MAC TV deal and get a full split on the CFP.

I think the MAC would take UMass without any thought if they had an acceptable #14. UMass has the issue with the MAC not being a multi-bid basketball conference.
10-06-2021 01:23 PM
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utpotts Offline
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Post: #27
RE: UMass should try to get into the MAC for all sports.
(10-06-2021 01:23 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(10-06-2021 08:59 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(10-06-2021 06:48 AM)RamblinRedWolf Wrote:  As an outsider looking in, UMass has to be among the most Ill-conceived move ups in the modern CFB era. Looking back, it seems they had no real plan as to where they were going to go once at the FBS level (their stadium situation between playing at Foxborough and getting their on campus stadium renovated seemed absolutely half-@$$ed) and while the MAC may not have been ideal landing spot gotta think their program would be better off in being in a stable conference rather trying to maintain independence andA10

What surprises me around the northeast indy schools like UMass, UConn and Army to get into a FB conference just to get a cut of the CFP money. Especially when BYU is no longer independent to help lead the charge for independent access to the playoff.

The MAC would definitely expand for Army FB and could pair with UConn FB which while weak would have upper level facilities for the MAC. They could take a half cut from the MAC TV deal and get a full split on the CFP.

I think the MAC would take UMass without any thought if they had an acceptable #14. UMass has the issue with the MAC not being a multi-bid basketball conference.

The issue with UMASS is they haven't been relevant in CBB in two decades, when Camby and crew was getting paid.
10-06-2021 01:29 PM
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Post: #28
RE: UMass should try to get into the MAC for all sports.
(10-06-2021 11:43 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(10-06-2021 08:40 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  ... The contract was written to allow the MAC to expel UMass after 4 years if it wanted so it did. It was willing enough to give UMass a shot all sports with JMU but UMass didn't want to do it. ...

To be more precise, the contract was written to allow the conference to give UMass a choice between joining as a full member or leaving, if Temple left, but with minimum four years after joining.

So the time of the willingness "to give UMass a shot all-sports" was, in fact, when the contract with Temple was renewed and the contract with UMass signed. When UMass was actually given the show, the MAC was simply respecting the terms of the contract.

I don't see that UMass at this point in time would be better joining the MAC in FB than playing as an independent.

Temple's standing doesn't really matter. UMass status with the MAC wasn't in whole dependent on Temple did.

Quote:Section 7 of the contract states that if Temple gives notice of its withdrawal from the MAC, the conference can “continue the Agreement (with UMass), explore obtaining another Football Member and/or convert the Open-Ended Term of this Agreement to a term contract .¤.¤. In no event, however, shall the initial term be less than two full years.”

https://www.masslive.com/umassfootball/2...uffle.html

UMass would be better off with CFP money in the MAC than being an independent is the main advantage for UMass.

For the MAC there is no advantage. Army FB only would be an advantage but nothing else would be so.
10-06-2021 01:30 PM
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Post: #29
RE: UMass should try to get into the MAC for all sports.
(10-06-2021 01:23 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(10-06-2021 08:59 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(10-06-2021 06:48 AM)RamblinRedWolf Wrote:  As an outsider looking in, UMass has to be among the most Ill-conceived move ups in the modern CFB era. Looking back, it seems they had no real plan as to where they were going to go once at the FBS level (their stadium situation between playing at Foxborough and getting their on campus stadium renovated seemed absolutely half-@$$ed) and while the MAC may not have been ideal landing spot gotta think their program would be better off in being in a stable conference rather trying to maintain independence andA10

What surprises me around the northeast indy schools like UMass, UConn and Army to get into a FB conference just to get a cut of the CFP money. Especially when BYU is no longer independent to help lead the charge for independent access to the playoff.

The MAC would definitely expand for Army FB and could pair with UConn FB which while weak would have upper level facilities for the MAC. They could take a half cut from the MAC TV deal and get a full split on the CFP.

I think the MAC would take UMass without any thought if they had an acceptable #14. UMass has the issue with the MAC not being a multi-bid basketball conference.

I agree.

I think a lot of people are misinterpreting the MAC's refusal to allow UMass to continue with a football-only membership as the MAC not being interested in UMass as an all-sports member. To me, there's little doubt that the MAC would add UMass as an all-sports member. However, it's really UMass that has the consternation about an all-sports membership because the A-10 simply fits them so much better for basketball and all other sports. Buffalo is a Great Lakes metro area, so that's a natural connection to the MAC region despite being in New York State. UMass, on the other hand, is pure East Coast - their alums are in Boston, NYC, Philly and DC. This is on top of the fact that the A-10 is at least a multi-bid basketball conference (as you've mentioned).
10-06-2021 01:48 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #30
RE: UMass should try to get into the MAC for all sports.
(10-06-2021 12:54 PM)ccd494 Wrote:  
(10-06-2021 10:46 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(10-06-2021 10:20 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  The solution to "What's Wrong With School X" is never "School X should join a conference with teams that none of its fans care about."

UMass made a huge mistake going FBS. When you make a huge mistake, you don't double down on it by further alienating your fans. No, the A-10 isn't what it was when UMass was in its heyday in the 90's as a northeast based multi-bid conference. But it is still a multi-bid conference. And there are still teams in the A-10 that UMass's fans care about.

I would also question why UMass football is automatically better off in the MAC than it is as an independent. It isn't going to win games in either scenario, it isn't going to draw fans in either scenario, it isn't going to make money in either scenario. So why rearrange those deck chairs and make all of your other sports worse off?

Well, you would know more than I do since I live in the south and you’re a Maine guy, but I have a few questions.

Why would they be worse off? Both western NY and Ohio are firmly A10 territory. Hell, St. Louis is A10 territory all the way over to Virginia and North Carolina. I don’t see travel being an issue for the MAC or C-USA considering there is some combination of schools in those leagues that are also in the A10 footprint.

Marshall, UCF, and Temple (fb-only) stretched the footprint but all have used MAC membership to move up the totem poll. Now UB is being hailed as an AAC replacement, a conference UMass openly covets joining.

The aforementioned playoff money of being in a conference would be attractive. How does that stack up against Independent status w/ buy games and the A10 money? Not sure, but buy games will be there either way.

I don’t think going FBS was a mistake. The mistake was hiring an AD that fired two coaches with UMass roots and replaced them with unproven coaches. Look at the records of their current revenue producing sports. Abysmal. That starts and ends with coaching.

1. The A-10 isn't really as spread out as people make it out to be. There are three geographic outliers in the A-10, outside the northeast/ACELA corridor: Dayton, Saint Louis, and Davidson.

In the MAC, Buffalo is reasonably in the northeast. The next closest school to UMass would be Kent State, about 580 miles away. 8 of 11 A-10 schools are closer to UMass than the second closest MAC school.

That matters, and not just for travel for your athletic teams. UMass's alumni network is in the stretch from DC to Boston. You've got opponents in NYC, Philadelphia, and DC. This hasn't been treated like it matters in conference realignment by people who just point to TV contracts, but it does. You want to play where your fans are, and you want to play schools your fans care about. Spending basketball season playing and traveling to Kent State, Bowling Green, and Ball State is a recipe for apathy.

2. I don't understand how the playoff money would move the needle at all. Every other school in the MAC would be getting the same money (or more if there was a delay in UMass' eligibility to receive a share). UMass would just have to pour that money into football to keep up with the Joneses. It wouldn't help UMass basketball get things straightened out, it wouldn't entice people to come watch football (UMass tried playing MAC schools and no one came to watch). My first rule of college sports realignment should be "Fans aren't going to buy tickets or concessions to sit in the stands and watch your bank account grow."

3. UMass' AD is also the one who hired a hockey coach that led UMass to a national title in its second most important sport.

4. Going FBS was absolutely a mistake. Just because football drives the boat at most schools down south doesn't mean it needs to in New England. Fans of schools in New England have proven time and time again they aggressively do not care about their schools' football teams.

UMass was 129th in attendance in 2019. UMass has had three home games this year: 12,118 against the most local P5 rival possible (BC), 7,012 against Eastern Michigan, and 9,456 against Toledo. Those would not be out of place in the CAA.

So, no one comes to the games. The team loses an embarrassing amount of games. The program loses money hand over fist.

Other than that, going FBS in football was a great idea!

Well most of those regional arguments fall apart when you consider the administration is all for joining the AAC, where the closest school is Temple. Then where, Greenville?

UMass has been talking about moving up to 1-A since the mid-90’s, so it’s not like this was a decision on a whim. The way I see it, the MAC or C-USA is a way to build towards the AAC if they’re not selected this round.

People will come out to see a winner. Their AD hired a coach that hasn’t done that. Hockey has nothing to do with football.
10-06-2021 01:49 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #31
RE: UMass should try to get into the MAC for all sports.
(10-06-2021 01:29 PM)utpotts Wrote:  
(10-06-2021 01:23 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(10-06-2021 08:59 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(10-06-2021 06:48 AM)RamblinRedWolf Wrote:  As an outsider looking in, UMass has to be among the most Ill-conceived move ups in the modern CFB era. Looking back, it seems they had no real plan as to where they were going to go once at the FBS level (their stadium situation between playing at Foxborough and getting their on campus stadium renovated seemed absolutely half-@$$ed) and while the MAC may not have been ideal landing spot gotta think their program would be better off in being in a stable conference rather trying to maintain independence andA10

What surprises me around the northeast indy schools like UMass, UConn and Army to get into a FB conference just to get a cut of the CFP money. Especially when BYU is no longer independent to help lead the charge for independent access to the playoff.

The MAC would definitely expand for Army FB and could pair with UConn FB which while weak would have upper level facilities for the MAC. They could take a half cut from the MAC TV deal and get a full split on the CFP.

I think the MAC would take UMass without any thought if they had an acceptable #14. UMass has the issue with the MAC not being a multi-bid basketball conference.

The issue with UMASS is they haven't been relevant in CBB in two decades, when Camby and crew was getting paid.

I remember this. Camby took a few bucks before the tournament to buy a necklace. All that ridiculousness should be forgiven with NIL.
(This post was last modified: 10-06-2021 01:53 PM by esayem.)
10-06-2021 01:51 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #32
RE: UMass should try to get into the MAC for all sports.
(10-06-2021 01:23 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(10-06-2021 08:59 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(10-06-2021 06:48 AM)RamblinRedWolf Wrote:  As an outsider looking in, UMass has to be among the most Ill-conceived move ups in the modern CFB era. Looking back, it seems they had no real plan as to where they were going to go once at the FBS level (their stadium situation between playing at Foxborough and getting their on campus stadium renovated seemed absolutely half-@$$ed) and while the MAC may not have been ideal landing spot gotta think their program would be better off in being in a stable conference rather trying to maintain independence andA10

What surprises me around the northeast indy schools like UMass, UConn and Army to get into a FB conference just to get a cut of the CFP money. Especially when BYU is no longer independent to help lead the charge for independent access to the playoff.

The MAC would definitely expand for Army FB and could pair with UConn FB which while weak would have upper level facilities for the MAC. They could take a half cut from the MAC TV deal and get a full split on the CFP.

I think the MAC would take UMass without any thought if they had an acceptable #14. UMass has the issue with the MAC not being a multi-bid basketball conference.

UMass has an issue with not being competitive for a bid in any conference. My point is the MAC wouldn’t have been keeping them from making the tournament. Nor has the A10 been beneficial enough to get them there.
(This post was last modified: 10-06-2021 01:55 PM by esayem.)
10-06-2021 01:54 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #33
RE: UMass should try to get into the MAC for all sports.
A solid 12-program men's basketball league for universities located east of the Mississippi River and that offer DI-A football but are not members of power leagues (I won't include UConn since it has the Big East home). Each has enjoyed some very solid success in hoops over the years:

UMass
Buffalo
Temple
Toledo
Old Dominion
Marshall
Charlotte
USF
Western Kentucky
UAB
Southern Miss
Memphis
(This post was last modified: 10-06-2021 01:57 PM by bill dazzle.)
10-06-2021 01:56 PM
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Post: #34
UMass should try to get into the MAC for all sports.
Some schools will likely soon leave CUSA. The conference geo-footprint is already spread out.
UMass + CUSA?
Just a thought.

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10-06-2021 02:02 PM
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Post: #35
RE: UMass should try to get into the MAC for all sports.
(10-06-2021 02:02 PM)WesternSkillet Wrote:  Some schools will likely soon leave CUSA. The conference geo-footprint is already spread out.
UMass + CUSA?
Just a thought.

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As a 10th or 12th member for FB.

CUSA West: NMSU, UTEP, LaTech, MoSt, MT, WKU
CUSA East: FAU, FIU, Marshall, ODU, JMU, UMass-FB

That could sort of work. 11 in basketball (20 game schedule) and 12 in FB.
10-06-2021 02:08 PM
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Post: #36
RE: UMass should try to get into the MAC for all sports.
(10-06-2021 01:30 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  Temple's standing doesn't really matter. UMass status with the MAC wasn't in whole dependent on Temple did.

Quote:Section 7 of the contract states that if Temple gives notice of its withdrawal from the MAC, the conference can “continue the Agreement (with UMass), explore obtaining another Football Member and/or convert the Open-Ended Term of this Agreement to a term contract .¤.¤. In no event, however, shall the initial term be less than two full years.”

https://www.masslive.com/umassfootball/2...uffle.html

You claim that Temple's standing doesn't really matter and then quote text which states the options that the MAC had in the event that Temple left.

And we learn directly from the text you quoted, if neither had left, it would have been an open-ended term for both -- quite unlike the FB affiliate status of Idaho and NMSU in the Sunbelt, which was a fixed term requiring a super-majority to be renewed.

Evidently, if the MAC has a set of specified options in the event of Temple's departure (and as we know, they had the same set of options with Temple in the event of UMass's departure) ... then in negotiating the contract, the MAC required the option to terminate the FB-only status of one if the other left. Surely none of the FB affiliates would have demanded that clause.
(This post was last modified: 10-06-2021 02:33 PM by BruceMcF.)
10-06-2021 02:29 PM
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ccd494 Offline
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Post: #37
RE: UMass should try to get into the MAC for all sports.
(10-06-2021 01:49 PM)esayem Wrote:  Well most of those regional arguments fall apart when you consider the administration is all for joining the AAC, where the closest school is Temple. Then where, Greenville?

UMass has been talking about moving up to 1-A since the mid-90’s, so it’s not like this was a decision on a whim. The way I see it, the MAC or C-USA is a way to build towards the AAC if they’re not selected this round.

People will come out to see a winner. Their AD hired a coach that hasn’t done that. Hockey has nothing to do with football.

I'm not sure you can make any of those assumptions.

First, there's a HUGE difference between the AAC and the MAC. While the present AAC is no great shakes, the AAC at least has a few schools that are academically aspirational (Tulane, Navy), and athletically recognizable (Memphis, SMU, Temple for late 90's UMass hoops fans). At least you could tell your faculty "we're rubbing elbows with Tulane!" instead of Western Michigan.

Second, I haven't heard anything specifically from the UMass administration that says the AAC is the goal. It's kind of assumed it is by everyone on the internet, but I'm not positive it is from the UMass admin. UMass just watched the most comparable FBS school leave the AAC. Two other schools just left, and public discourse suggests that the AAC swung and missed at CSU and Air Force. I'm not saying UMass would turn down the AAC, and UMass is probably close to two decades away from being invited, but if you asked the powers that be at UMass to design a conference they want to join I'm not sure there are many, if any, AAC schools in said conference.

Third, if C-USA and the MAC are how you build to the AAC, why aren't any of those schools already in those conferences ahead of UMass in the pecking order? UMass football sucks compared to most of C-USA and the MAC. Just bringing the investment up to the level of C-USA and the MAC using money from joining the conference isn't going to vault UMass ahead of those schools. And you are lighting your basketball program on fire, the program that traditionally has been your premier program.

Fourth, the administration and athletic director from when UMass went FBS has completely turned over. Are we sure that this present group thinks football is worth it? UMass moving to FBS was largely tied to the Krafts wanting it to happen to fill dates at Foxboro (a move that SPECTACULARLY failed) and the ego of the then UMass president. I don't remember a ton of rumors in the 1990's about UMass moving up, and that was the heyday of FCS to FBS jumps. The move was largely sold as "UMass football is failing and losing money in FCS. The Krafts are offering us Foxboro. This is the only thing we can do to save UMass football."

Fifth, you brought up the AD: "The mistake was hiring an AD that fired two coaches with UMass roots and replaced them with unproven coaches. Look at the records of their current revenue producing sports. Abysmal. That starts and ends with coaching." I pointed out that hockey is more important at UMass than football, and the hockey hire was fantastic and they won a national title. UMass competes in Hockey East with schools that look a heck of a lot more like UMass than the schools in the MAC or CUSA that you think they should join up with.
10-06-2021 02:29 PM
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Post: #38
RE: UMass should try to get into the MAC for all sports.
Here is something I don't get the ASUN wants to add football. Why not go after UCONN, UMASS & NMSU for football only schools. If they could get Liberty, then in theory that is four teams. Bring up the other four teams to FBS. Add some HBCU's like NC A&T, Norfolk State and Jackson St and I imagine there would be financial support provided to help the conference. Then again, probably not as simple as it sounds.
(This post was last modified: 10-06-2021 02:38 PM by msm96wolf.)
10-06-2021 02:38 PM
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Post: #39
RE: UMass should try to get into the MAC for all sports.
(10-06-2021 02:29 PM)ccd494 Wrote:  
(10-06-2021 01:49 PM)esayem Wrote:  Well most of those regional arguments fall apart when you consider the administration is all for joining the AAC, where the closest school is Temple. Then where, Greenville?

UMass has been talking about moving up to 1-A since the mid-90’s, so it’s not like this was a decision on a whim. The way I see it, the MAC or C-USA is a way to build towards the AAC if they’re not selected this round.

People will come out to see a winner. Their AD hired a coach that hasn’t done that. Hockey has nothing to do with football.

I'm not sure you can make any of those assumptions.

First, there's a HUGE difference between the AAC and the MAC. While the present AAC is no great shakes, the AAC at least has a few schools that are academically aspirational (Tulane, Navy), and athletically recognizable (Memphis, SMU, Temple for late 90's UMass hoops fans). At least you could tell your faculty "we're rubbing elbows with Tulane!" instead of Western Michigan.

Second, I haven't heard anything specifically from the UMass administration that says the AAC is the goal. It's kind of assumed it is by everyone on the internet, but I'm not positive it is from the UMass admin. UMass just watched the most comparable FBS school leave the AAC. Two other schools just left, and public discourse suggests that the AAC swung and missed at CSU and Air Force. I'm not saying UMass would turn down the AAC, and UMass is probably close to two decades away from being invited, but if you asked the powers that be at UMass to design a conference they want to join I'm not sure there are many, if any, AAC schools in said conference.

Third, if C-USA and the MAC are how you build to the AAC, why aren't any of those schools already in those conferences ahead of UMass in the pecking order? UMass football sucks compared to most of C-USA and the MAC. Just bringing the investment up to the level of C-USA and the MAC using money from joining the conference isn't going to vault UMass ahead of those schools. And you are lighting your basketball program on fire, the program that traditionally has been your premier program.

Fourth, the administration and athletic director from when UMass went FBS has completely turned over. Are we sure that this present group thinks football is worth it? UMass moving to FBS was largely tied to the Krafts wanting it to happen to fill dates at Foxboro (a move that SPECTACULARLY failed) and the ego of the then UMass president. I don't remember a ton of rumors in the 1990's about UMass moving up, and that was the heyday of FCS to FBS jumps. The move was largely sold as "UMass football is failing and losing money in FCS. The Krafts are offering us Foxboro. This is the only thing we can do to save UMass football."

Fifth, you brought up the AD: "The mistake was hiring an AD that fired two coaches with UMass roots and replaced them with unproven coaches. Look at the records of their current revenue producing sports. Abysmal. That starts and ends with coaching." I pointed out that hockey is more important at UMass than football, and the hockey hire was fantastic and they won a national title. UMass competes in Hockey East with schools that look a heck of a lot more like UMass than the schools in the MAC or CUSA that you think they should join up with.

They were looking at moving up prior to the Krafts. They just didn't have the money to upgrade the stadium. Still don't.
10-06-2021 03:20 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #40
RE: UMass should try to get into the MAC for all sports.
(10-06-2021 02:29 PM)ccd494 Wrote:  
(10-06-2021 01:49 PM)esayem Wrote:  Well most of those regional arguments fall apart when you consider the administration is all for joining the AAC, where the closest school is Temple. Then where, Greenville?

UMass has been talking about moving up to 1-A since the mid-90’s, so it’s not like this was a decision on a whim. The way I see it, the MAC or C-USA is a way to build towards the AAC if they’re not selected this round.

People will come out to see a winner. Their AD hired a coach that hasn’t done that. Hockey has nothing to do with football.

I'm not sure you can make any of those assumptions.

First, there's a HUGE difference between the AAC and the MAC. While the present AAC is no great shakes, the AAC at least has a few schools that are academically aspirational (Tulane, Navy), and athletically recognizable (Memphis, SMU, Temple for late 90's UMass hoops fans). At least you could tell your faculty "we're rubbing elbows with Tulane!" instead of Western Michigan.

Second, I haven't heard anything specifically from the UMass administration that says the AAC is the goal. It's kind of assumed it is by everyone on the internet, but I'm not positive it is from the UMass admin. UMass just watched the most comparable FBS school leave the AAC. Two other schools just left, and public discourse suggests that the AAC swung and missed at CSU and Air Force. I'm not saying UMass would turn down the AAC, and UMass is probably close to two decades away from being invited, but if you asked the powers that be at UMass to design a conference they want to join I'm not sure there are many, if any, AAC schools in said conference.

Third, if C-USA and the MAC are how you build to the AAC, why aren't any of those schools already in those conferences ahead of UMass in the pecking order? UMass football sucks compared to most of C-USA and the MAC. Just bringing the investment up to the level of C-USA and the MAC using money from joining the conference isn't going to vault UMass ahead of those schools. And you are lighting your basketball program on fire, the program that traditionally has been your premier program.

Fourth, the administration and athletic director from when UMass went FBS has completely turned over. Are we sure that this present group thinks football is worth it? UMass moving to FBS was largely tied to the Krafts wanting it to happen to fill dates at Foxboro (a move that SPECTACULARLY failed) and the ego of the then UMass president. I don't remember a ton of rumors in the 1990's about UMass moving up, and that was the heyday of FCS to FBS jumps. The move was largely sold as "UMass football is failing and losing money in FCS. The Krafts are offering us Foxboro. This is the only thing we can do to save UMass football."

Fifth, you brought up the AD: "The mistake was hiring an AD that fired two coaches with UMass roots and replaced them with unproven coaches. Look at the records of their current revenue producing sports. Abysmal. That starts and ends with coaching." I pointed out that hockey is more important at UMass than football, and the hockey hire was fantastic and they won a national title. UMass competes in Hockey East with schools that look a heck of a lot more like UMass than the schools in the MAC or CUSA that you think they should join up with.

The AAC is less appealing after UConn’s departure. I won’t argue there.

I posted an article sometime ago citing UMass having an invite to C-USA if they wanted to move up their football program. This was like 1995. There were other articles that just generally talked about moving up and playing at the new (then) Kraft stadium.

I’ve already explained how they wouldn’t be lighting their basketball program on fire. How is current basketball attendance? Are they racking up tournament bids? People don’t generally go to home games because of who the team is playing. They go because their team is good or they go to every game no matter what.

Why would UMass have to leave Hockey East? Why are you avoiding the fact that the two main revenue sports have bad coaches?

I don’t see UMass moving down to FCS—their AD even said that’s not an option— so it doesn’t make sense for people to scream and yell it’s a mistake they moved up. The focus should be “how can we make this work?” And that’s precisely what this thread is about.
10-06-2021 03:27 PM
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