I'm curious what people think about the Lt Col Sheller situation.

I admit to being surprised that he has become somewhat of a cause celebre on Fox News the last several nights, given that he clearly- and admittedly- broke the chain of command and disobeyed orders.

The cynical side of me says that he would be portrayed as a villain if there was a Republican president, but I'm still sorting out what to make of the situation.

Is this all political or should we encourage our soldiers to pubilicly criticize their superiors?

(09-30-2021 10:25 AM)Middle Ages Wrote:  I'm curious what people think about the Lt Col Sheller situation.

I admit to being surprised that he has become somewhat of a cause celebre on Fox News the last several nights, given that he clearly- and admittedly- broke the chain of command and disobeyed orders.

The cynical side of me says that he would be portrayed as a villain if there was a Republican president, but I'm still sorting out what to make of the situation.

Is this all political or should we encourage our soldiers to pubilicly criticize their superiors?

I have zero issue with Scheller being detained. He was ordered by his superiors not to engage in social media until his 'cutting the ties' date. Which he ignored, and disobeyed. The order was not an inherently unlawful order, especially since Scheller had already tendered a resignation.

He was removed from his command after his initial statement, and which he acknowledges himself that he would have done had he been in that command position with a similar public statement.

That being said, I agree with the statements that led to his removal from command. And his many of the further statements that led to his detainment.

(09-30-2021 12:04 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-30-2021 10:25 AM)Middle Ages Wrote:  I'm curious what people think about the Lt Col Sheller situation.
I admit to being surprised that he has become somewhat of a cause celebre on Fox News the last several nights, given that he clearly- and admittedly- broke the chain of command and disobeyed orders.
The cynical side of me says that he would be portrayed as a villain if there was Republican president, but I'm still sorting out what to make of the situation.
Is this all political or should we encourage our soldiers to publicly criticize their superiors?

I have zero issue with Scheller being detained. He was ordered by his superiors not to engage in social media until his 'cutting the ties' date. Which he ignored, and disobeyed. The order was not an inherently unlawful order, especially since Scheller had already tendered a resignation.
He was removed from his command after his initial statement, and which he acknowledges himself that he would have done had he been in that command position with a similar public statement.
That being said, I agree with the statements that led to his removal from command. And his many of the further statements that led to his detainment.

This situation is basically analogous to the skipper of the Teddy Roosevelt going public over COVID a year or so ago. With a republican president in office, he was praised by the left and damned by the right. Now with a democrat president in office, Scheller is praised by the right and damned by the left. That just goes to show how much is it team over country on both sides.

For the record, both were wrong, should have been fired, and were correctly fired.

(09-30-2021 12:17 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(09-30-2021 12:04 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-30-2021 10:25 AM)Middle Ages Wrote:  I'm curious what people think about the Lt Col Sheller situation.
I admit to being surprised that he has become somewhat of a cause celebre on Fox News the last several nights, given that he clearly- and admittedly- broke the chain of command and disobeyed orders.
The cynical side of me says that he would be portrayed as a villain if there was Republican president, but I'm still sorting out what to make of the situation.
Is this all political or should we encourage our soldiers to publicly criticize their superiors?

I have zero issue with Scheller being detained. He was ordered by his superiors not to engage in social media until his 'cutting the ties' date. Which he ignored, and disobeyed. The order was not an inherently unlawful order, especially since Scheller had already tendered a resignation.
He was removed from his command after his initial statement, and which he acknowledges himself that he would have done had he been in that command position with a similar public statement.
That being said, I agree with the statements that led to his removal from command. And his many of the further statements that led to his detainment.

This situation is basically analogous to the skipper of the Teddy Roosevelt going public over COVID a year or so ago. With a republican president in office, he was praised by the left and damned by the right. Now with a democrat president in office, Scheller is praised by the right and damned by the left. That just goes to show how much is it team over country on both sides.

For the record, both were wrong, should have been fired, and were correctly fired.

I appreciate how #'s called out BOTH sides for hypocrisy. That doesn't always happen here.

(09-30-2021 02:11 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(09-30-2021 12:17 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(09-30-2021 12:04 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-30-2021 10:25 AM)Middle Ages Wrote:  I'm curious what people think about the Lt Col Sheller situation.
I admit to being surprised that he has become somewhat of a cause celebre on Fox News the last several nights, given that he clearly- and admittedly- broke the chain of command and disobeyed orders.
The cynical side of me says that he would be portrayed as a villain if there was Republican president, but I'm still sorting out what to make of the situation.
Is this all political or should we encourage our soldiers to publicly criticize their superiors?

I have zero issue with Scheller being detained. He was ordered by his superiors not to engage in social media until his 'cutting the ties' date. Which he ignored, and disobeyed. The order was not an inherently unlawful order, especially since Scheller had already tendered a resignation.
He was removed from his command after his initial statement, and which he acknowledges himself that he would have done had he been in that command position with a similar public statement.
That being said, I agree with the statements that led to his removal from command. And his many of the further statements that led to his detainment.

This situation is basically analogous to the skipper of the Teddy Roosevelt going public over COVID a year or so ago. With a republican president in office, he was praised by the left and damned by the right. Now with a democrat president in office, Scheller is praised by the right and damned by the left. That just goes to show how much is it team over country on both sides.

For the record, both were wrong, should have been fired, and were correctly fired.

I appreciate how #'s called out BOTH sides for hypocrisy. That doesn't always happen here.

Owl#s said almost exactly what I'm sure most of us were thinking -- I know I was.
Perhaps the surprising thing is that Middle Ages didn't do so in the original post.

(09-30-2021 02:11 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(09-30-2021 12:17 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(09-30-2021 12:04 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-30-2021 10:25 AM)Middle Ages Wrote:  I'm curious what people think about the Lt Col Sheller situation.
I admit to being surprised that he has become somewhat of a cause celebre on Fox News the last several nights, given that he clearly- and admittedly- broke the chain of command and disobeyed orders.
The cynical side of me says that he would be portrayed as a villain if there was Republican president, but I'm still sorting out what to make of the situation.
Is this all political or should we encourage our soldiers to publicly criticize their superiors?

I have zero issue with Scheller being detained. He was ordered by his superiors not to engage in social media until his 'cutting the ties' date. Which he ignored, and disobeyed. The order was not an inherently unlawful order, especially since Scheller had already tendered a resignation.
He was removed from his command after his initial statement, and which he acknowledges himself that he would have done had he been in that command position with a similar public statement.
That being said, I agree with the statements that led to his removal from command. And his many of the further statements that led to his detainment.

This situation is basically analogous to the skipper of the Teddy Roosevelt going public over COVID a year or so ago. With a republican president in office, he was praised by the left and damned by the right. Now with a democrat president in office, Scheller is praised by the right and damned by the left. That just goes to show how much is it team over country on both sides.
For the record, both were wrong, should have been fired, and were correctly fired.

I appreciate how #'s called out BOTH sides for hypocrisy. That doesn't always happen here.

For the record, I don't think either should be imprisoned or confined. The case for that is stronger for the TR guy, but fails for either. Just relieved of command.

(09-30-2021 10:10 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(09-30-2021 02:11 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(09-30-2021 12:17 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(09-30-2021 12:04 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-30-2021 10:25 AM)Middle Ages Wrote:  I'm curious what people think about the Lt Col Sheller situation.
I admit to being surprised that he has become somewhat of a cause celebre on Fox News the last several nights, given that he clearly- and admittedly- broke the chain of command and disobeyed orders.
The cynical side of me says that he would be portrayed as a villain if there was Republican president, but I'm still sorting out what to make of the situation.
Is this all political or should we encourage our soldiers to publicly criticize their superiors?

I have zero issue with Scheller being detained. He was ordered by his superiors not to engage in social media until his 'cutting the ties' date. Which he ignored, and disobeyed. The order was not an inherently unlawful order, especially since Scheller had already tendered a resignation.
He was removed from his command after his initial statement, and which he acknowledges himself that he would have done had he been in that command position with a similar public statement.
That being said, I agree with the statements that led to his removal from command. And his many of the further statements that led to his detainment.

This situation is basically analogous to the skipper of the Teddy Roosevelt going public over COVID a year or so ago. With a republican president in office, he was praised by the left and damned by the right. Now with a democrat president in office, Scheller is praised by the right and damned by the left. That just goes to show how much is it team over country on both sides.
For the record, both were wrong, should have been fired, and were correctly fired.

I appreciate how #'s called out BOTH sides for hypocrisy. That doesn't always happen here.

For the record, I don't think either should be imprisoned or confined. The case for that is stronger for the TR guy, but fails for either. Just relieved of command.

Both should have been relieved of command for their public statements. Scheller was not detained, however, for those initial statements.

Scheller was explicitly ordered to steer away from opinions on social media subsequent to his first statements, and until the effective date of his voluntary resignation.

Scheller, last weekend, disobeyed those direct orders, commenting through several 1000+ word posts on Facebook regarding his opinion on several Commanders in Chief, and his direct superiors -- current and past.

Consequently he was detained as part of the investigation into a court martial based on failure to obey a direct order from a superior. He actually posted in that diatribe that he epxected to be detained as a pretrial move.

So yes, he should not be detained for his first comments. And he was not.

But blatantly disregarding a valid order from a superior is absolutely a court-martial offense. And, he should be detained for his second set of postings that violate that direct order.

(09-30-2021 08:57 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(09-30-2021 02:11 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(09-30-2021 12:17 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(09-30-2021 12:04 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(09-30-2021 10:25 AM)Middle Ages Wrote:  I'm curious what people think about the Lt Col Sheller situation.
I admit to being surprised that he has become somewhat of a cause celebre on Fox News the last several nights, given that he clearly- and admittedly- broke the chain of command and disobeyed orders.
The cynical side of me says that he would be portrayed as a villain if there was Republican president, but I'm still sorting out what to make of the situation.
Is this all political or should we encourage our soldiers to publicly criticize their superiors?

I have zero issue with Scheller being detained. He was ordered by his superiors not to engage in social media until his 'cutting the ties' date. Which he ignored, and disobeyed. The order was not an inherently unlawful order, especially since Scheller had already tendered a resignation.
He was removed from his command after his initial statement, and which he acknowledges himself that he would have done had he been in that command position with a similar public statement.
That being said, I agree with the statements that led to his removal from command. And his many of the further statements that led to his detainment.

This situation is basically analogous to the skipper of the Teddy Roosevelt going public over COVID a year or so ago. With a republican president in office, he was praised by the left and damned by the right. Now with a democrat president in office, Scheller is praised by the right and damned by the left. That just goes to show how much is it team over country on both sides.

For the record, both were wrong, should have been fired, and were correctly fired.

I appreciate how #'s called out BOTH sides for hypocrisy. That doesn't always happen here.

Owl#s said almost exactly what I'm sure most of us were thinking -- I know I was.
Perhaps the surprising thing is that Middle Ages didn't do so in the original post.

I'm happy to hear that's what most were thinking, if that's true. I honestly wasn't sure.

I generally try to watch both "mainstream" news (CNN, ABC, NBC) as well as Fox. I used to be a loyal Rush listener and admit to often enjoying Clay Travis these days...along with comedic news folks that skew left, like Colbert and Stewart. I HATE hypocrisy from any side, and it comes from all sides. The reason I posted was that I saw multiple days of stories on Fox about Lt Col Sheller and was struck by the conviction shown by those hosts that were talking about it. In their mind this was a patriot that was being unfairly silenced by an unjust authority. Jailed without reason. And all I could see was an officer that clearly disobeyed orders and was insubordinate.
Given the complete disconnect I have with those that don't think it's logical to get the Covid vaccine, and that think there was rampant election fraud--I really didn't know how many would agree with me on Scheller. But I'm glad to hear you do Mr. Webb.

Also, just FTR- 20 years ago I was a diehard conservative, every day Rush listener, watched nothing but Fox and consumed nothing but right-leaning websites. But I never lost perspective IMO. The Trump phenomenon put me in a whirlpool that I haven't yet gotten out of. I can't fathom following him in any way or following anyone that did- though my political leaning is still to the right, especially economically. Just adding that context if it's helpful at all

Rules are rules. He agreed to them and they are necessary for any military organisation.

He could have waited and if pursued for his opinions simply state something along the lines of "I'm not at liberty to offer an opinion as I am still a member of the armed forces until ???".

(Sorry, that's poorly worded, but I hope my position is understood.)

If he is 'canned' after he has tendered his resignation will he lose any pension rights?

(If so then his second set of comments are pretty 'dumb' unless he thought they had a limited shelf life or he is otherwise 'financially secure'. jmho.)

He could have waited (I think 60 days) and he could say anything he wished.

I dont know what can happen to him now under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. But tendering a resignation isnt the key date; the key date is actual separation. That is why he finds himself in the brig pretrial.

(09-30-2021 11:49 PM)Middle Ages Wrote:  I can't fathom following him in any way or following anyone that did- though my political leaning is still to the right, especially economically.

Yes, I can agree with that in the primaries. In 2016, when the GOP started with 17 candidates, Trump about 14th or 15th for me. As candidates fell out or my opinions changed, others rose to the top. trump never did. In the end, there were 4, and Trump was not #1 with me. He was never my first choice in 2016.

But in the general election we are presented with a binary choice - this one or that one. Are you saying you voted for Hilary and/or Joe? I would need to be very anti-Trump to actually vote for either of those people.

In 2016, I did not cast a vote in the Presidential race.

In 2020, trump had a track record, and many (not all) of the things he did I liked. I liked his tax cuts, and his foreign policy. I did not like his manner. But I would rather have a Prez doing the right things gruffly than one doing the wrong things politely, as we have now.

I voted for Trump in 2020.

If he runs again in 2024, I do not know if I will support him in the primaries. I prefer other people, and if they run I will support them. But if he is nominated, and is running against either Biden or Harris, I think I have no choice but to support him.

The world has been divided into for-Trump and against-Trump. Thank you, MSM and the Russian witch hunt. But in the end, as always, we voters will be forced to vote whoever we consider the lesser evil - either that or cast no vote at all - and that is what I consider third party votes to be.

(10-01-2021 09:28 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(09-30-2021 11:49 PM)Middle Ages Wrote:  I can't fathom following him in any way or following anyone that did- though my political leaning is still to the right, especially economically.

Yes, I can agree with that in the primaries. In 2016, when the GOP started with 17 candidates, Trump about 14th or 15th for me. As candidates fell out or my opinions changed, others rose to the top. trump never did. In the end, there were 4, and Trump was not #1 with me. He was never my first choice in 2016.

But in the general election we are presented with a binary choice - this one or that one. Are you saying you voted for Hilary and/or Joe? I would need to be very anti-Trump to actually vote for either of those people.

In 2016, I did not cast a vote in the Presidential race.

In 2020, trump had a track record, and many (not all) of the things he did I liked. I liked his tax cuts, and his foreign policy. I did not like his manner. But I would rather have a Prez doing the right things gruffly than one doing the wrong things politely, as we have now.

I voted for Trump in 2020.

If he runs again in 2024, I do not know if I will support him in the primaries. I prefer other people, and if they run I will support them. But if he is nominated, and is running against either Biden or Harris, I think I have no choice but to support him.

The world has been divided into for-Trump and against-Trump. Thank you, MSM and the Russian witch hunt. But in the end, as always, we voters will be forced to vote whoever we consider the lesser evil - either that or cast no vote at all - and that is what I consider third party votes to be.

No, I didn't vote for Hillary or Joe. I left it blank. Voted for all other offices but couldn't pull the lever for either candidate in 2016 or 2020. Maybe there was a better way to handle it, but that's what I did

(10-01-2021 12:37 PM)Middle Ages Wrote:  

(10-01-2021 09:28 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(09-30-2021 11:49 PM)Middle Ages Wrote:  I can't fathom following him in any way or following anyone that did- though my political leaning is still to the right, especially economically.

Yes, I can agree with that in the primaries. In 2016, when the GOP started with 17 candidates, Trump about 14th or 15th for me. As candidates fell out or my opinions changed, others rose to the top. trump never did. In the end, there were 4, and Trump was not #1 with me. He was never my first choice in 2016.

But in the general election we are presented with a binary choice - this one or that one. Are you saying you voted for Hilary and/or Joe? I would need to be very anti-Trump to actually vote for either of those people.

In 2016, I did not cast a vote in the Presidential race.

In 2020, trump had a track record, and many (not all) of the things he did I liked. I liked his tax cuts, and his foreign policy. I did not like his manner. But I would rather have a Prez doing the right things gruffly than one doing the wrong things politely, as we have now.

I voted for Trump in 2020.

If he runs again in 2024, I do not know if I will support him in the primaries. I prefer other people, and if they run I will support them. But if he is nominated, and is running against either Biden or Harris, I think I have no choice but to support him.

The world has been divided into for-Trump and against-Trump. Thank you, MSM and the Russian witch hunt. But in the end, as always, we voters will be forced to vote whoever we consider the lesser evil - either that or cast no vote at all - and that is what I consider third party votes to be.

No, I didn't vote for Hillary or Joe. I left it blank. Voted for all other offices but couldn't pull the lever for either candidate in 2016 or 2020. Maybe there was a better way to handle it, but that's what I did

I did the same in 2016. Thought it was symbolic since Hillary was a shoo-in.

I did vote for Trump in 2020. I feel like subsequent events - Biden's failures in Afghanistan and the mexican border, the takeover of the Dem party by the far left - have ratified that choice.

(10-01-2021 12:59 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I did vote for Trump in 2020. I feel like subsequent events - Biden's failures in Afghanistan and the mexican border, the takeover of the Dem party by the far left - have ratified that choice.

Gotta support those insurrectionists!
Free the Capitol Tourists!!1!

I'm not a fan or supporter of Donald Trump.

But versus Joe Biden, he was very much the lesser of evils in my mind.

In 2016, I was certain that Texas was going red and as between Trump and Hillary, I thought the best Trump could be was better than the best Hillary could, but the worst Trump could be was worse than the worst Hillary could be. Therefore, I could make a protest vote for Gary Johnson. Voting Libertarian is clearly a protest, whereas not voting doesn't really show up as anything.

So far, Biden has been far better than I expected. But I have seen nothing to cause me to think that I could ever vote for him for anything, even dogcatcher.

(10-01-2021 05:51 AM)MerseyOwl Wrote:  Rules are rules. He agreed to them and they are necessary for any military organisation.

He is required to obey lawful orders of his superiors. There may be some question about whether these were in fact lawful orders, or whether they instead went beyond the scope of a senior officer's authority.

(10-01-2021 05:59 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I'm not a fan or supporter of Donald Trump.

But versus Joe Biden, he was very much the lesser of evils in my mind.

In 2016, I was certain that Texas was going red and as between Trump and Hillary, I thought the best Trump could be was better than the best Hillary could, but the worst Trump could be was worse than the worst Hillary could be. Therefore, I could make a protest vote for Gary Johnson. Voting Libertarian is clearly a protest, whereas not voting doesn't really show up as anything.

So far, Biden has been far better than I expected. But I have seen nothing to cause me to think that I could ever vote for him for anything, even dogcatcher.

IMO, Biden has been far worse than I expected. And the buck sure doesn't stop with him.

(10-01-2021 06:07 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  IMO, Biden has been far worse than I expected. And the buck sure doesn't stop with him.

I guess you didn't expect him to be as bad as I did.

(10-01-2021 06:32 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(10-01-2021 06:07 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  IMO, Biden has been far worse than I expected. And the buck sure doesn't stop with him.

I guess you didn't expect him to be as bad as I did.

That’s true. I expected him to be the moderate he was portrayed as, not the willing tool of the far far left he is, and I never expected he would leave Americans in the lurch to appease terrorists.

(10-01-2021 07:24 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I never expected he would leave Americans in the lurch to appease terrorists.

And yet you're an enthusiastic supporter of the guy who fomented a domestic insurrection. Good times, good times.