They knew how to have insurrections in the 1780s: 4000 men attacking the Springfield Armory!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shays%27_Rebellion

(10-03-2021 09:10 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(10-03-2021 09:04 PM)Middle Ages Wrote:  Okay- I concede that. But don't you agree the intent was there, at least for some?

I don't know. I can only infer intent from actions, since I can't read minds. And the fact that they were in a position where they could have done at least some of those things, but didn't do them, suggests to me that they didn't intend them.

Quote:And the fact that this happening at the Capitol, during that particular moment, made it different?

This is the part that I reject. It's part of this whole mystique that there is some elite group that we have to give special deference because they know better what we want than we do. I reject the idea that members of congress are any better than small business people in Minneapolis or Seattle or Portland, or are entitled to more safety and protection than their fellow USA citizens. The same rules should apply to them as apply to me.

And the causal train from Donald Trump is pretty poorly established.

It's not so much that it's an elite group to me, it's that they were in the process of certifying the election at that exact time. And Trump's rhetoric about Pence and the certification was inflammatory IMO.

But, truly, I don't think I'm going to change anyone's opinion here so I will agree to disagree and focus on the fact that we have common ground on the Owls.

(10-03-2021 09:21 PM)Middle Ages Wrote:  And Trump's rhetoric about Pence and the certification was inflammatory IMO.

But here's my problem with chain of causation. If you want to infer intent because some people had zip ties, well I'm going to need more but you can do that if you wish. But if they obtained those zip ties prior to Trump's comments, then that (or anything else they did prior to Trump's comments) is hard to pin on Trump's comments as the cause. And it's been my understanding that some people were already inside the capitol before Trump spoke.

What I see is the left wanting a Reichstag Fire incident so badly that they are using the most inflammatory and hyperbolic language (e.g., insurrection) to describe the events of January 6 in Washington, DC. And I'm sorry, but I have a difficult time making those predominantly non-violent events worse than months of violent rioting, pillaging, and burning in multiple locations.

(10-03-2021 08:39 PM)Middle Ages Wrote:  

(10-02-2021 04:53 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(10-02-2021 01:50 PM)Middle Ages Wrote:  

(10-02-2021 03:55 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(10-01-2021 11:17 PM)InterestedX Wrote:  And yet you're an enthusiastic supporter of the guy who fomented a domestic insurrection. Good times, good times.

Who fomented what domestic insurrection?

If you mean Donald Trump and January 6, that was not a domestic insurrection and there is considerable question whether he "fomented" it.

I haven't been on the Quad that much so I'm sure I missed the discussion about Jan. 6th, but how would you describe it?

I tend to think it wasn't organized enough to be an "insurrection" but it was much, much more serious that republicans seem to say today. And while Trump didn't actively lead the charge, I think it's disingenuous to say his rhetoric leading up to and including that day wasn't a big reason it escalated like it did.
Not referencing any of your statements, just what I have seen on TV in recent' months when the incident is discussed. It definitely has been downplayed in certain quarters IMO

Speaking for myself, I thought it was just a protest that went too far, not much different from the BLM protests in Seattle except with much less violence and looting.

I'm not going to defend the BLM riots. I agree that those got out of hand in many cities and what happened in Seattle and Portland was unacceptable.

Just looking at Jan 6th on it's own, without comparison to anything else:
I would agree with you, and did initially, if there wasn't video evidence of many in the crowd seeking out congressmen, Mike Pence, trying to get into offices where congressmen and women were hiding, etc. For at least some in that crowd it seemed much more directed/ organized than a protest gone wrong. There were people there with a bulk of zip ties. unless they were planning to tie people up, what was that for? Not to mention that this was the Capitol Building, not a Target in Minneapolis. And the Congress was ratifying the election at that very moment. Which they had to stop doing, on Trump's behalf, and if you ask many of them, on Trump's orders!! I mean, I don't agree that it was an insurrection because it was not coordinated enough IMO, but I understand why some refer to it as that. For many in that group, they were trying to stop the certification of Biden. That seems like more than a protest that went out of control

If it is not a protest out of control, and it is not an insurrection, what is it?

The insurrection label carries connotations of a planned overthrowing of the government, but I doubt any there wanted anything other than fraud corrected - same as the Hillary supporters who tried to get electoral votes changed or thrown out in 2016.

You may not want to defend the BLM riots, and I don't want to defend the actions of jan. 6, but they are reasonable comparisons.

I remember lots of film of people walking through Congress, not breaking anything. I remember people stealing souvenirs, like coffee cups. I remember some some idiot dragging a lectern, which was later found in another part of the building. I remember zero fires.

In Seattle, I remember the protesters declaring that there was a space where the government of the US had no power. Did that happen on Jan. 6? On that basis alone, I feel the BLM riots were closer to an insurrection than Jan. 6.

In Seattle et al, I remember the protesters wanting certain parts of the government banned or defunded. I remember nothing of the kind on Jan. 6.

After the election of 2016, there were lots of disappointed followers/voters for Hillary protesting in various - disrupting electoral college proceedings, claiming Russian collusion, picketing the Supreme Court, filing lawsuits, etc. Easy to say these actions were on behalf of Hillary, since they looked to overthrow the election results. So what? Americans can protest, and it will always benefit somebody.

I do not condone the actions of jan. 6, any more than I condone the actions of the countless BLM riots, but I can understand the frustration of people that lead to them. In the case of Jan-6, nobody wants to feel like an election was stolen - just like the Dems felt in 2016.

I refer to the actions of Jan-6 as actions, not as a riot nor an insurrection. I don't know what to call it. It certainly did not reach the levels of either label that I think necessary.

In my mind, a real insurrection would have called for coordinated armed resistance at a number of places, not idiots in buffalo skins strolling through the Capitol.

(10-03-2021 10:07 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(10-03-2021 08:39 PM)Middle Ages Wrote:  

(10-02-2021 04:53 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(10-02-2021 01:50 PM)Middle Ages Wrote:  

(10-02-2021 03:55 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Who fomented what domestic insurrection?

If you mean Donald Trump and January 6, that was not a domestic insurrection and there is considerable question whether he "fomented" it.

I haven't been on the Quad that much so I'm sure I missed the discussion about Jan. 6th, but how would you describe it?

I tend to think it wasn't organized enough to be an "insurrection" but it was much, much more serious that republicans seem to say today. And while Trump didn't actively lead the charge, I think it's disingenuous to say his rhetoric leading up to and including that day wasn't a big reason it escalated like it did.
Not referencing any of your statements, just what I have seen on TV in recent' months when the incident is discussed. It definitely has been downplayed in certain quarters IMO

Speaking for myself, I thought it was just a protest that went too far, not much different from the BLM protests in Seattle except with much less violence and looting.

I'm not going to defend the BLM riots. I agree that those got out of hand in many cities and what happened in Seattle and Portland was unacceptable.

Just looking at Jan 6th on it's own, without comparison to anything else:
I would agree with you, and did initially, if there wasn't video evidence of many in the crowd seeking out congressmen, Mike Pence, trying to get into offices where congressmen and women were hiding, etc. For at least some in that crowd it seemed much more directed/ organized than a protest gone wrong. There were people there with a bulk of zip ties. unless they were planning to tie people up, what was that for? Not to mention that this was the Capitol Building, not a Target in Minneapolis. And the Congress was ratifying the election at that very moment. Which they had to stop doing, on Trump's behalf, and if you ask many of them, on Trump's orders!! I mean, I don't agree that it was an insurrection because it was not coordinated enough IMO, but I understand why some refer to it as that. For many in that group, they were trying to stop the certification of Biden. That seems like more than a protest that went out of control

If it is not a protest out of control, and it is not an insurrection, what is it?

The insurrection label carries connotations of a planned overthrowing of the government, but I doubt any there wanted anything other than fraud corrected - same as the Hillary supporters who tried to get electoral votes changed or thrown out in 2016.

You may not want to defend the BLM riots, and I don't want to defend the actions of jan. 6, but they are reasonable comparisons.

I remember lots of film of people walking through Congress, not breaking anything. I remember people stealing souvenirs, like coffee cups. I remember some some idiot dragging a lectern, which was later found in another part of the building. I remember zero fires.

In Seattle, I remember the protesters declaring that there was a space where the government of the US had no power. Did that happen on Jan. 6? On that basis alone, I feel the BLM riots were closer to an insurrection than Jan. 6.

In Seattle et al, I remember the protesters wanting certain parts of the government banned or defunded. I remember nothing of the kind on Jan. 6.

After the election of 2016, there were lots of disappointed followers/voters for Hillary protesting in various - disrupting electoral college proceedings, claiming Russian collusion, picketing the Supreme Court, filing lawsuits, etc. Easy to say these actions were on behalf of Hillary, since they looked to overthrow the election results. So what? Americans can protest, and it will always benefit somebody.

I do not condone the actions of jan. 6, any more than I condone the actions of the countless BLM riots, but I can understand the frustration of people that lead to them. In the case of Jan-6, nobody wants to feel like an election was stolen - just like the Dems felt in 2016.

I refer to the actions of Jan-6 as actions, not as a riot nor an insurrection. I don't know what to call it. It certainly did not reach the levels of either label that I think necessary.

In my mind, a real insurrection would have called for coordinated armed resistance at a number of places, not idiots in buffalo skins strolling through the Capitol.

I keep trying to leave this alone but...

"The insurrection label carries connotations of a planned overthrowing of the government, but I doubt any there wanted anything other than fraud corrected.."

Fraud corrected? So the [mob/peaceful protest/riot/insurrection] was trying to correct fraud? Why would they think there was fraud?

I HATE Hillary Clinton, but where did her supporters invade the congress during the election certification to "correct fraud"?

Someone help me here. I'm a very recently (last 5 years) former conservative republican that is trying to grab onto something objective to hold onto. I believe the cult of Trump has permanently infected the party.

I can't stand the Democrats. I believe they want to raise taxes and regulations to the point that the federal government has control over our lives more than ever before in our history.

BUT- I think the democrats are the same as they have been for my whole life. With Trump, I believe the Republicans have ceded the moral high ground on almost every issue due to an almost religious allegiance to one man. A man who IMO is not guided by morals or ethics at all- only by winning,,,and really only by winning in a way that glorifies him personally. How that benefits the rest of us I don't know.

ETA- I would love it if someone/ anyone would at least acknowledge there is another side here. For God's sake, it seems we are in an era where the sides are so entrenched that no one dares give an inch. I have tried to give context to my positions. Would appreciate any reciprocation. it becomes hard to post on this board if that's not possible

(10-04-2021 12:54 AM)Middle Ages Wrote:  Someone help me here. I'm a very recently (last 5 years) former conservative republican that is trying to grab onto something objective to hold onto. I believe the cult of Trump has permanently infected the party.

Here's where I am coming from. I am a libertarian conservative (or conservative libertarian, pretty much equal parts both). I would not call myself republican because for most of my lifetime republicans haven't really stood for much that I believed in. In fact, they haven't really stood for much of anything, period.

Quote:I can't stand the Democrats. I believe they want to raise taxes and regulations to the point that the federal government has control over our lives more than ever before in our history.
BUT- I think the democrats are the same as they have been for my whole life. With Trump, I believe the Republicans have ceded the moral high ground on almost every issue due to an almost religious allegiance to one man. A man who IMO is not guided by morals or ethics at all--only by winning--and really only by winning in a way that glorifies him personally. How that benefits the rest of us I don't know.

What I see is democrats absolutely devoted to implementing a tax, spend, redistribute, regulate, and control agenda that will sap all the life out of the USA economy. It's already done so to a large extent--witness the amount of offshoring that has taken place. And republicans have long ceded the high ground because they have stood idly by and let it happen. The last time republicans really stood for anything was Newt's contract in 1994. They won their largest electoral victory of my lifetime, then proceeded to push Monicagate instead of doing what they said they were going to do. GWB in 2000 promised to 1) reduce the size of the federal government, and 2) get us out of the nation-building business, then spent 8 years going 180 degrees out on both.

I don't like Donald Trump any more than you do. I don't think of him as much of a conservative. But when the alternative is the democrats, and he is the only republican who has not cowered at every turn, I will grudgingly support him as very much the lesser of evils. That is all--no allegiance, religious or otherwise. I wish republicans could provide somebody I could like and support as a person to oppose the democrats. So far they haven't. Their "leaders" have been useless cucks.

Quote:ETA- I would love it if someone/ anyone would at least acknowledge there is another side here. For God's sake, it seems we are in an era where the sides are so entrenched that no one dares give an inch. I have tried to give context to my positions. Would appreciate any reciprocation. it becomes hard to post on this board if that's not possible

There is another side to what?

To what you have described as, "almost religious allegiance to one man"? He's a populist. That's how they roll. Ever heard of Huey Long? Edwin Edwards? I don't like him, but sometimes the enemy of your enemy is your friend. And I see this crop of democrats very clearly as my enemy, and in fact as enemies of the USA in the sense that they will gladly destroy the country if doing so aids their quest for power. And that makes me duty bound to support whoever opposes them, no matter how distasteful.

Or to the events of 6 January 2021 in Washington, DC, USA? I'm sorry, but those events do not rise to the level of "insurrection." If they had been an insurrection, then Nancy Pelosi and/or Chuck Schumer and/or Mike Pence, along with a bunch more congress critters, would be dead today. If you can acknowledge that other side by not starting out with the hyperbolic insurrection language, then perhaps we can engage in meaningful conversation.

I thought we WERE engaging in meaningful, and polite, discussion. MA and I are very alike in some ways, as Numbers and I are alike in many ways, but we are not clones. Just expressing my thoughts on the matter.

What happened recently/is happening in Afghanistan was an insurrection. What happened with the Confederacy was an insurrection. What the Founding Fathers did to King George was an insurrection. This one-off on January 6 was not an insurrection. It was a bad incident that went too far, and I wish it hadn't happened.

I cannot characterize myself as a libertarian, or even a Republican. But our elections are binary, and for me the lesser evil is always the Republican, because the Democrats are worse.

yes, I think the Jan-6 incident was an effort on the part of some people to correct what they perceived as likely fraud to steal an election. Personally, I think there was likely some fraud, especially in Georgia, but if so, it was was so well done that it is a fait accompli, and the thing to do is to get to work, not trying to change the past, but trying to change the future. I only bring up the Hillaryites as an example of people who thought the election was stolen from them. Their chosen reaction of a three year witch hunt was not much better than the one day of violence the Trumpers chose.

Yes, I agree, the Democrats are the same as they have been our entire lives - and that is one reason I would not dismiss the idea of some fraud in the election.

I think it just boils down to this: MA seems to be a never Trumper. I had many favorites in 2016 ahead of Trump, but in 2016 and 2020, it boiled down to a choice of the lesser evil.

I already have a short list of people I would like to see as the GOP nominee in 2024, and Trump is not on the list. Not that I don't think he didn't do many things well, but he is just too controversial, as this discussion shows. But if he becomes the nominee, I will likely vote for him, for it is hard to imagine any Democrat that they could nominate not being the greater evil. It won't be Manchin vs. Trump. I won't vote for him because of his morals or likeability - he is not a role model for anybody I care about. But Mr. Rogers will not be running.

This discussion has drifted away from whether or not the events of Jan-6 are an insurrection. I think not. JMHO. The precise definition of what it was is hard to pin down. But the event of Jan-6 is like a dumpster fire, and an insurrection is like a wildfire.

The Jan 6th riot was caused by two things. The tacit approval of highly destructive riots in general over the prior year nationwide and the fraud mongering and egging on by Trump himself.

Red meat conservatives that formed Trump's base were understandably fed up with the BLM riots that persisted for weeks on end throughout the summer of 2020. These riots were highly infuriating for several reasons. The media gleefully cheered not only the actual protests where political statements were being made, but also gleefully reported on the looting, burning of business, and carjacking of white people who dared show any sense of entitlement to drive about public streets. Of course BLM started with a literal bang in 2016 with the assassination of the five Dallas police officers that effectively received no condemnation from the BLM crowd until they were cowed into soft rebukes of killing police officers. Head BLM spokesperson and Nike ambassador Colin Kaepernick made it a point to wear his "cops are pigs" socks soon after this mass assassination, which led Nike to signing him on as a brand ambassador after he was blackballed from the NFL. Then we had the attempted assassination of several Republican congressmen which was dropped by the media as soon as the goon wasn't a right-wing terrorist (he was left-wing, so that is an "activist" in the AP style guide). Prominent Democrats continue to enable proponents of Rand Paul's neighbor and death threats made to lawmakers on social media are okay as long as they are Republicans. The media continued to look the other way in the summer of 2020 as several police officers were intentionally targeted for assassinations as the indiscriminate killing of law enforcement is now just a cost of doing business in many municipalities. On top of the deafening silence in reaction to this open season on law enforcement, notable Democrats such as our now VP Kamala Harris went as far as to pay the bond of people arrested for participating in these highly destructive and fatal riots.

In such an environment where the rule of law appears to have been rescinded during periods of political activism, it is understandable that people with political grievances open up their universe of "what is now acceptable in polite society" to include murder, arson, assault, burglary etc. Certainly trespassing is far down that list, even if it is a federal building. So it is certainly understandable to me why so many people were willing to herd into the capitol building that day.

Second of all was the egging on of Trump to the election fraud crowd. Believe what you will about the provenance of Biden's victory, but the social compact prior to this election has been "if the vote hits the ballot box, it counts." In a deluge of social compact reengineering, Trump sought to blaze a new trail of ex post facto electioneering that we have rarely if ever seen in this country and generally see in authoritarian states. He gleefully whipped up the 1% of his base crazy enough to do something about it and who no longer gave a damn about social norms. Given brazen confidence by the lack of official response to BLM riots, they wanted their own riot and Trump dutifully marshalled them to the steps of the capitol that morning then did nothing while clearly seeing the ensuing ransacking of the capitol building.

Now we get to add "I condemn the Jan 6th riot" to every capital C Conservative's bedtime prayer along with "I condemn slavery/white supremacy/racism/sexism/confederate flags/etc." as they get on their knees and blow their leftist overlords. You can see this every night on Fox when Hannity rolls around. We have now added supporting post-election Trump and his riot sponsored by My Pillow to the long list of regrettable Republican bedfellows. They have to continually apologize because they cater to a base on the wrong side of societal progress, they have no sense of political activism where apologizing is not necessary, and they are baby **** soft people who curdle at the first sense of actual conflict with real sweaty people for real political gain.

I initially liked Trump because this modern brand of conservativism is quite terrible and leaves us with people like George W. Bush who is quite possible the worst conservative president of all time. Trump was unrepentant, capable of lying, stealing, cheating, and self dealing just like the best Democrats. He was going to be the Republican's Democrat tough guy to take on the Final Boss Tough Guy in Hillary. As long as he focused the energy of the Republicans and distracted the Democrats with ridiculous puffery, it was okay to hold your nose. He did cross a hard line both with the non-handling of the pandemic but ever so much more so with his fraud mongering and riot-cheerleading he did as he spent his last days in office being a pathetic sore loser. He was just as pathetic as Hillary was, but Trump will never get that easy of treatment.

(10-04-2021 11:27 AM)flash3200 Wrote:  The Jan 6th riot was caused by two things. The tacit approval of highly destructive riots in general over the prior year nationwide and the fraud mongering and egging on by Trump himself.

Red meat conservatives that formed Trump's base were understandably fed up with the BLM riots that persisted for weeks on end throughout the summer of 2020. These riots were highly infuriating for several reasons. The media gleefully cheered not only the actual protests where political statements were being made, but also gleefully reported on the looting, burning of business, and carjacking of white people who dared show any sense of entitlement to drive about public streets. Of course BLM started with a literal bang in 2016 with the assassination of the five Dallas police officers that effectively received no condemnation from the BLM crowd until they were cowed into soft rebukes of killing police officers. Head BLM spokesperson and Nike ambassador Colin Kaepernick made it a point to wear his "cops are pigs" socks soon after this mass assassination, which led Nike to signing him on as a brand ambassador after he was blackballed from the NFL. Then we had the attempted assassination of several Republican congressmen which was dropped by the media as soon as the goon wasn't a right-wing terrorist (he was left-wing, so that is an "activist" in the AP style guide). Prominent Democrats continue to enable proponents of Rand Paul's neighbor and death threats made to lawmakers on social media are okay as long as they are Republicans. The media continued to look the other way in the summer of 2020 as several police officers were intentionally targeted for assassinations as the indiscriminate killing of law enforcement is now just a cost of doing business in many municipalities. On top of the deafening silence in reaction to this open season on law enforcement, notable Democrats such as our now VP Kamala Harris went as far as to pay the bond of people arrested for participating in these highly destructive and fatal riots.

In such an environment where the rule of law appears to have been rescinded during periods of political activism, it is understandable that people with political grievances open up their universe of "what is now acceptable in polite society" to include murder, arson, assault, burglary etc. Certainly trespassing is far down that list, even if it is a federal building. So it is certainly understandable to me why so many people were willing to herd into the capitol building that day.

Second of all was the egging on of Trump to the election fraud crowd. Believe what you will about the provenance of Biden's victory, but the social compact prior to this election has been "if the vote hits the ballot box, it counts." In a deluge of social compact reengineering, Trump sought to blaze a new trail of ex post facto electioneering that we have rarely if ever seen in this country and generally see in authoritarian states. He gleefully whipped up the 1% of his base crazy enough to do something about it and who no longer gave a damn about social norms. Given brazen confidence by the lack of official response to BLM riots, they wanted their own riot and Trump dutifully marshalled them to the steps of the capitol that morning then did nothing while clearly seeing the ensuing ransacking of the capitol building.

Now we get to add "I condemn the Jan 6th riot" to every capital C Conservative's bedtime prayer along with "I condemn slavery/white supremacy/racism/sexism/confederate flags/etc." as they get on their knees and blow their leftist overlords. You can see this every night on Fox when Hannity rolls around. We have now added supporting post-election Trump and his riot sponsored by My Pillow to the long list of regrettable Republican bedfellows. They have to continually apologize because they cater to a base on the wrong side of societal progress, they have no sense of political activism where apologizing is not necessary, and they are baby **** soft people who curdle at the first sense of actual conflict with real sweaty people for real political gain.

I initially liked Trump because this modern brand of conservativism is quite terrible and leaves us with people like George W. Bush who is quite possible the worst conservative president of all time. Trump was unrepentant, capable of lying, stealing, cheating, and self dealing just like the best Democrats. He was going to be the Republican's Democrat tough guy to take on the Final Boss Tough Guy in Hillary. As long as he focused the energy of the Republicans and distracted the Democrats with ridiculous puffery, it was okay to hold your nose. He did cross a hard line both with the non-handling of the pandemic but ever so much more so with his fraud mongering and riot-cheerleading he did as he spent his last days in office being a pathetic sore loser. He was just as pathetic as Hillary was, but Trump will never get that easy of treatment.

Really good post. Very well put and I agree with almost all of it. My only area of disagreement is that I never liked Trump.

(10-04-2021 12:20 PM)Middle Ages Wrote:  

(10-04-2021 11:27 AM)flash3200 Wrote:  The Jan 6th riot was caused by two things. The tacit approval of highly destructive riots in general over the prior year nationwide and the fraud mongering and egging on by Trump himself.

Red meat conservatives that formed Trump's base were understandably fed up with the BLM riots that persisted for weeks on end throughout the summer of 2020. These riots were highly infuriating for several reasons. The media gleefully cheered not only the actual protests where political statements were being made, but also gleefully reported on the looting, burning of business, and carjacking of white people who dared show any sense of entitlement to drive about public streets. Of course BLM started with a literal bang in 2016 with the assassination of the five Dallas police officers that effectively received no condemnation from the BLM crowd until they were cowed into soft rebukes of killing police officers. Head BLM spokesperson and Nike ambassador Colin Kaepernick made it a point to wear his "cops are pigs" socks soon after this mass assassination, which led Nike to signing him on as a brand ambassador after he was blackballed from the NFL. Then we had the attempted assassination of several Republican congressmen which was dropped by the media as soon as the goon wasn't a right-wing terrorist (he was left-wing, so that is an "activist" in the AP style guide). Prominent Democrats continue to enable proponents of Rand Paul's neighbor and death threats made to lawmakers on social media are okay as long as they are Republicans. The media continued to look the other way in the summer of 2020 as several police officers were intentionally targeted for assassinations as the indiscriminate killing of law enforcement is now just a cost of doing business in many municipalities. On top of the deafening silence in reaction to this open season on law enforcement, notable Democrats such as our now VP Kamala Harris went as far as to pay the bond of people arrested for participating in these highly destructive and fatal riots.

In such an environment where the rule of law appears to have been rescinded during periods of political activism, it is understandable that people with political grievances open up their universe of "what is now acceptable in polite society" to include murder, arson, assault, burglary etc. Certainly trespassing is far down that list, even if it is a federal building. So it is certainly understandable to me why so many people were willing to herd into the capitol building that day.

Second of all was the egging on of Trump to the election fraud crowd. Believe what you will about the provenance of Biden's victory, but the social compact prior to this election has been "if the vote hits the ballot box, it counts." In a deluge of social compact reengineering, Trump sought to blaze a new trail of ex post facto electioneering that we have rarely if ever seen in this country and generally see in authoritarian states. He gleefully whipped up the 1% of his base crazy enough to do something about it and who no longer gave a damn about social norms. Given brazen confidence by the lack of official response to BLM riots, they wanted their own riot and Trump dutifully marshalled them to the steps of the capitol that morning then did nothing while clearly seeing the ensuing ransacking of the capitol building.

Now we get to add "I condemn the Jan 6th riot" to every capital C Conservative's bedtime prayer along with "I condemn slavery/white supremacy/racism/sexism/confederate flags/etc." as they get on their knees and blow their leftist overlords. You can see this every night on Fox when Hannity rolls around. We have now added supporting post-election Trump and his riot sponsored by My Pillow to the long list of regrettable Republican bedfellows. They have to continually apologize because they cater to a base on the wrong side of societal progress, they have no sense of political activism where apologizing is not necessary, and they are baby **** soft people who curdle at the first sense of actual conflict with real sweaty people for real political gain.

I initially liked Trump because this modern brand of conservativism is quite terrible and leaves us with people like George W. Bush who is quite possible the worst conservative president of all time. Trump was unrepentant, capable of lying, stealing, cheating, and self dealing just like the best Democrats. He was going to be the Republican's Democrat tough guy to take on the Final Boss Tough Guy in Hillary. As long as he focused the energy of the Republicans and distracted the Democrats with ridiculous puffery, it was okay to hold your nose. He did cross a hard line both with the non-handling of the pandemic but ever so much more so with his fraud mongering and riot-cheerleading he did as he spent his last days in office being a pathetic sore loser. He was just as pathetic as Hillary was, but Trump will never get that easy of treatment.

Really good post. Very well put and I agree with almost all of it. My only area of disagreement is that I never liked Trump.

Agree also. I never liked trump personally, although I did like many of the the things he did. I did not support the concept of the Wall in 2016, for reasons I have explained here many times.

The point about the left ratifying bad behavior in a what they consider to be a good cause is the main reason I cannot dismiss the possibility of fraud.

(10-04-2021 11:27 AM)flash3200 Wrote:  He did cross a hard line both with the non-handling of the pandemic but ever so much more so with his fraud mongering and riot-cheerleading he did as he spent his last days in office being a pathetic sore loser.

Heck, if you ruled out fraud-mongering and riot-cheerleading, leftists wouldn't have a political party at all!