(09-14-2021 06:09 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  This is a perception question: Regardless of when they start play, do you think some or all of BYU/UCF/Cincinnati/Houston as P5 members today? Did you feel that way about them before? Are you waiting for them to officially join the B12? Or are you waiting to see how they do in the B12?

NO!
BYU, UCF, Cincinnati and Houston are not P5 teams and the new Big 12 (without Texas and Oklahoma) is no longer considered a P5 conference.

To be honest I already thought of BYU as one

With Cincinnati, UCF, and Houston I wouldn't say I'd call them P5 yet just because they don't play the caliber of schedule. I do think they certainly capable in any given year of being top 25 (or better) teams that can beat anyone on a given Saturday. Once they're in the Big 12 I'll have no compunction about slapping the P5 label on them.

(09-15-2021 05:43 AM)ken d Wrote:  There are no P5 teams. Only P5 conferences. So the only question is whether you accept the Big 12 as a P5 conference or not. If you do, then these schools are every bit as much of a P5 as Kansas, Wake Forest, Rutgers and other schools that populate the lower end of the power conferences. If you don't, then you would have to say that football powerhouses like Oklahoma State, Kansas State and TCU are no longer P5 schools as well.

This is perfectly framed and will force some posters — if they want to be fair and consistent — to re-examine their thoughts on this topic.

Well done, ked d.

Perhaps the best way to define is to list the metrics that yield a "power football league."

If all or all but one of the following metrics are met, then a league is power and, as such, all its football members are power:

* average stadium capacity for all members: 50,000

* average annual attendance for all members: 45,000

* average pay for head coach: $3.5 million to $4 million

* average annual overall athletics department budget: $75 million

* at least one member that is "elite/blueblood."

* minimum number of teams in either major top 25 poll during any given week: three

I'm sure there are other possible metrics. But if the future Big 12 offers all the characteristics I've listed (or any others I've forgotted) — except for the "at least one member that is 'elite/blueblood' " (with OU and UT leaving), ... then its members could be, in theory, described as "power conference members" and, by affiliation, power football programs. Now, admittedly, that is a big IF for the future Big 12.

(09-15-2021 08:33 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  To be honest I already thought of BYU as one

With Cincinnati, UCF, and Houston I wouldn't say I'd call them P5 yet just because they don't play the caliber of schedule. I do think they certainly capable in any given year of being top 25 (or better) teams that can beat anyone on a given Saturday. Once they're in the Big 12 I'll have no compunction about slapping the P5 label on them.

I've always considered BYU football a high-major program and de facto "power league-esque."

(09-15-2021 08:42 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(09-15-2021 08:33 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  To be honest I already thought of BYU as one

With Cincinnati, UCF, and Houston I wouldn't say I'd call them P5 yet just because they don't play the caliber of schedule. I do think they certainly capable in any given year of being top 25 (or better) teams that can beat anyone on a given Saturday. Once they're in the Big 12 I'll have no compunction about slapping the P5 label on them.

I've always considered BYU football a high-major program and de facto "power league-esque."

Exactly. I just looked at their schedule and they play 7 P5 programs this season already. Between regularly difficult schedules and some historic success over the last 50 years, I already had them in the club.

The AAC three slightly less so, but I always viewed them as the cream of the G5 crop.

There are no P5 teams. There are only P5 conferences, and that designation is solely a network perception. A lot of P5 conference members are the beneficiaries of being in the right place at the right time, and nothing more. Judge a team by its on-field performance. If you're a perennial bottom dweller in a P5 conference, you're a parasite, living off the largesse of your more accomplished conference mates. Conversely, if you're consistently at or near the top of a so-called G5 conference, you probably deserve more recognition for your prowess.

Here's what the hierarchy is unless some completely unexpected stuff happens in G5 realignment.

SEC
.
B1G.
.
.
ACC, Pac
.
.
.
Big 12 (no blue bloods)
.
.
.
AAC, Sun Belt, MWC
.
.
CUSA, MAC

(09-15-2021 11:21 AM)EigenEagle Wrote:  Here's what the hierarchy is unless some completely unexpected stuff happens in G5 realignment.

SEC
.
B1G.
.
.
ACC, Pac
.
.
.
Big 12 (no blue bloods)
.
.
.
AAC, Sun Belt, MWC
.
.
CUSA, MAC

Reasonable overall but I feel the future Big 12 will be essentially on par with the ACC and Pac-12. Maybe I'll be proved wrong.

Nope. Not because of the schools or their performance but from the lack of money flowing into their programs. Once they start cashing $20 million TV rev checks, adding the extra conference payout of the B12, more donations from sponsors and alumna.... Then they'll be a fully P5 team. If they all get mule kicked the first year or so people have to remember the financial gap will take time to even out.

I only think of about 10-15 programs worthy of being distinguished from the other 115-120. Those 10-15 are the only ones with a real shot at being champion. I have a hard time giving Vandy, UK, Kansas, Cal.... and those type teams special recognition compared to the rest.

(09-15-2021 11:54 AM)Yosef Himself Wrote:  Nope. Not because of the schools or their performance but from the lack of money flowing into their programs. Once they start cashing $20 million TV rev checks, adding the extra conference payout of the B12, more donations from sponsors and alumna.... Then they'll be a fully P5 team. If they all get mule kicked the first year or so people have to remember the financial gap will take time to even out.

Rep point given for your use of "mule-kicked."

Well done.

[quote='EigenEagle' pid='17639717' dateline='1631722873']

YES

Here's what the hierarchy is unless some completely unexpected stuff happens in G5 realignment.

SEC
.
B1G.
.
.
ACC, Pac, Big 12 (no blue bloods)
.
.
.
MWC
.
.
.
Sun Belt, AAC
.
.
.
CUSA, MAC
.
.
.
Future G6 Members
WAC, ASUN w/ CUSA demise to AAC to the MW and Sun Belt



MW loses Boise State and Colorado State to Big 12,
San Diego State and UNLV to Pac 12
MWPicks up SMU, Rice, Tulsa, UNT, UTSA, and UTEP from CUSA.

AAC loses Memphis and Tulane to Big 12 (SMU and Tulsa) and Wichita State to MW

AAC adds UAB, Old Dominion, FAU, FIU and Charlotte from CUSA and Appalachian State and Coastal Carolina from the Sun Belt and Liberty from ASUN.

Sun Belt adds Marshall, Southern Miss, Western Kentucky, Middle Tennessee State, UTSA, and La Tech from CUSA

(09-15-2021 08:33 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  To be honest I already thought of BYU as one

With Cincinnati, UCF, and Houston I wouldn't say I'd call them P5 yet just because they don't play the caliber of schedule. I do think they certainly capable in any given year of being top 25 (or better) teams that can beat anyone on a given Saturday. Once they're in the Big 12 I'll have no compunction about slapping the P5 label on them.

Same here.

(09-15-2021 11:21 AM)EigenEagle Wrote:  Here's what the hierarchy is unless some completely unexpected stuff happens in G5 realignment.

SEC
.
B1G.
.
.
ACC, Pac
.
.
.
Big 12 (no blue bloods)
.
.
.
AAC, Sun Belt, MWC
.
.
CUSA, MAC

The biggest gap of all is between the SEC and everyone else.

University of Houston, if they keep pushing their academic and athletic agenda will have the highest ceiling out of the three schools. Their law school, and the new college of medicine will enhance UH's profile. If people follow UH's trajectory these past few years, it won't be a surprised if they catch their Big12 peers in a few years.

(09-16-2021 01:17 PM)Frog in the Kitchen Sink Wrote:  

(09-15-2021 11:21 AM)EigenEagle Wrote:  Here's what the hierarchy is unless some completely unexpected stuff happens in G5 realignment.

SEC
.
B1G.
.
.
ACC, Pac
.
.
.
Big 12 (no blue bloods)
.
.
.
AAC, Sun Belt, MWC
.
.
CUSA, MAC

The biggest gap of all is between the SEC and everyone else.

Not in media and other money payouts.

(09-15-2021 07:03 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(09-14-2021 06:09 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  This is a perception question: Regardless of when they start play, do you think some or all of BYU/UCF/Cincinnati/Houston as P5 members today? Did you feel that way about them before? Are you waiting for them to officially join the B12? Or are you waiting to see how they do in the B12?

NO!
BYU, UCF, Cincinnati and Houston are not P5 teams and the new Big 12 (without Texas and Oklahoma) is no longer considered a P5 conference.

UCF has achieved more in Football over the last 10 years than any school in North Carolina including UNC, NCST, Duke and Wake. Cincinnati has run laps around the State of North Carolina in Football over the last 15 years

I’ll think of them and the rest of the NB12 like I thought of the old BE

Technically in the club but not really

(09-16-2021 08:40 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  I’ll think of them and the rest of the NB12 like I thought of the old BE

Technically in the club but not really

Your use of "technically in the club but not really" and my use of the similar descriptor "sufficiently power" both should work well.