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Congrats to New B12
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Hokie Mark Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Congrats to New B12
(09-11-2021 11:26 AM)schmolik Wrote:  ...You [ACC] have a school in Pennsylvania but if you know anything about PA, Pittsburgh and Philadelphia are in opposite ends of the state (Pittsburgh and Temple are 302 miles away, Syracuse (253 miles) and Virginia (256) are closer. There aren't many Pittsburgh fans in Philly, they're not Penn State (or Florida State in Tampa).

That's my thought - Pitt and Temple could complement each other in terms of TV, but I do agree with earlier comments that the Owls would need to demonstrate long-term commitment to competing at this level first.
09-11-2021 11:49 AM
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Post: #22
RE: Congrats to New B12
(09-10-2021 04:49 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  Seems to me Northerners prefer PRIVATE higher education. I don’t know why. Maybe they are more affluent.

The Ivy League nearby probably goes a long way towards that.

Also the lack of athletics/branding may have hurt. Why was there never any big New York State public university the same way UCLA and Cal are in California or Texas and Texas A&M in Texas or Ohio State in Ohio? Is Buffalo (the "top" SUNY) a destination school for NYC high school seniors the same way Penn State is for PA seniors all over the state? Stony Brook? Most of America probably hasn't even heard of the school, how many New Yorkers would be excited to go there? Obviously "New York University" was taken but if Stony Brook was called "New York State University" or "University of New York", you don't think it wouldn't be more popular? And of course Buffalo is a MAC school and Stony Brook and Albany FCS. And don't get me started on Rutgers. Temple is also handicapped by their name (it's probably why they're not in the Big 12, ACC, or Big East now). Of the public universities in the Northeast north of the Mason Dixon line, Penn State and Pittsburgh are the only ones whose names are assets (UConn and UMass aren't in large enough states to make a difference).
(This post was last modified: 09-11-2021 01:00 PM by schmolik.)
09-11-2021 12:59 PM
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Post: #23
RE: Congrats to New B12
(09-11-2021 11:26 AM)schmolik Wrote:  
(09-10-2021 03:37 PM)Statefan Wrote:  
(09-10-2021 02:43 PM)schmolik Wrote:  
(09-10-2021 12:14 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Memphis is not happening in our lifetimes. Perhaps by 2150.

USF is academically on par with the ACC.

If you start looking outside the P-5 but east of the Mississippi you only get USF as an ACC analog school.

Temple and U of Ohio would be at the bottom end of the ACC but neither have shown the ability to support a major college football program. Past them you get the academic quality you need in Stonybrook and Buffalo, but they would have big challenges. Then you have UAB which is a graduate focused university under the thumb of Alabama politicians who pick on UAB when they can't stick Auburn.

If the criteria is academics, Temple and USF tied in the 2021 USN&WR rankings (#103). So "USF is academically on par with the ACC" and "Temple ... would be at the bottom end of the ACC" are contradictory statements.

We don't use US News - their rankings are easy to game. Look at ARWU - USF is 63-89, Temple is 130-152. Graduate research matters more than undergraduate entrance metrics. Pitt, UNC, Duke, GT, NC State, VT, UVa, Miami, and FSU are graduate research institutions (Comparison would be B10). WF, BC, and ND are more your classical "undergraduate college" (Comparison would Dartmouth, Brown the less research intensive Ivies. Syracuse, Louisville, and Clemson are "odd ducks".

Clemson is Land Grant/Cow College that while it does graduate research, has purposely kept itself smaller than it could be in order to boost the academic standing of the university. Syracuse is a former AAU graduate research university who in the late 60's and 70's made some inexplicable decisions to step out of some fields other than Communications. Louisville is a City College with a really good Medical School and is growing the University to meet the Med School's standards, but that takes time.

USF has already arrived as a graduate research institution. Army and Navy have already arrived as elite undergraduate institutions. Temple has some of MD's problems and is located in a State that does not value public higher education.

While Temple's admission rate is 60%, USF has a rate of 48%. USF has a small endowment of just .7 Billion but USF is only 65 years old. Temple only has .7 Billion and is 130 years old. This illustrates a support problem for Temple which is similar to MD's problems among others. While the endowment does not fund football, it's a damn good indicator of how much money an institution can lay its hands on when it needs it.

If Temple wants into the ACC, they need to figure out how to merge with Villanova and that ensuing entity would be able to cross the threshold.

OK, USF is a better academic school than Temple. Show how Louisville's a better academic school than Temple before saying that Temple doesn't belong in the ACC academically. Not to mention you have two schools in Florida. You have a school in Pennsylvania but if you know anything about PA, Pittsburgh and Philadelphia are in opposite ends of the state (Pittsburgh and Temple are 302 miles away, Syracuse (253 miles) and Virginia (256) are closer. There aren't many Pittsburgh fans in Philly, they're not Penn State (or Florida State in Tampa).

Who said Louisville was a better university according to academic or research measures as compared to Temple. I never said that. Louisville has been functioning as a public university only since 1970. But to really compare Temple to Louisville you need to look at the endowments. With just 144K alums, Louisville has an endowment of .719 B. With 320K alums Temple has an endowment of only .641 B.

That's an endowment rate of $5000 for every U of Louisville graduate and just $2000 for every Temple graduate. This is a lack of support for Temple that is due in part to it's unfortunate geography. If Temple were in Ohio or Virginia, it would be the 3rd most important school in the State. In Pa, Temple is behind Penn, Carnegie Mellon, Pitt, Villanova, and Penn State. If we trade out institutions for their analog in the State of NC, Duke = Penn, UNC = Pitt, NC State = Penn State, WF = Villanova, and while more a stretch, Davidson's twin would be CM. That makes Temple to be some combination of UNC-G, ECU, and UNC Charlotte.

This matters from the standpoint of what you can get your governor and legislature to swing for you.

None of this makes Louisville's academics better than Temple's. However your football stinks, has stunk, and got you tossed out of the Big East. In this sense you are like Tulane who has deemphasized football three times in 80 years. The ACC knows that Louisville is committed to a robust football program and that their alums support such a program. We don't know that about you.
09-11-2021 01:50 PM
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Post: #24
RE: Congrats to New B12
(09-10-2021 04:49 PM)random asian guy Wrote:  
(09-10-2021 04:19 PM)ChrisLords Wrote:  
(09-10-2021 03:37 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Temple has some of MD's problems and is located in a State that does not value public higher education.

Could you expand on that part a bit? I know Pennsylvania is merging a bunch of the PSU satellite schools but didn't know they didn't value higher education.

Seems to me Northerners prefer PRIVATE higher education. I don’t know why. Maybe they are more affluent.

As matter of public policy, Yankees do not support public higher education at the University level. They do not want to pay the taxes for that and feel no need to skew the blue collar - white collar mix they have in their societies. Conn, Mass, NJ, and Pa all have predatory college loan entities that are the genesis of the college loan problem and the reason why Northeastern Senators want to forgive college debt. In the South, public universities were developed, especially after WWII, to be engines of economic development.

"Yankee land" is also Union land. A Union plumber, electrician, etc., can make a great salary and have a great career with benefits without using a 4 year degree to become a paper pusher. Since unions prop up the wage structure, they also prop up the cost structure in those states. Massachusetts knows a kid with an 80 IQ is not going to be able to manager the local retail or service establishment but they also know he can make a damn good plumber and pay for his future family. In NC it remains a defacto policy of the State to get every kid a four year degree no matter how useless that degree is to the kid.

I can't say whose method is most equitable, but I had to have a damn plumber come to my house to install a replacement water line for the washing machine. That SOB charged $110 an hour for labor. I was DAMN HAPPY to pay it and he drove off from my house in a $75,000 Ford F-250.
09-11-2021 02:02 PM
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