What about Grand Canyon University?

(09-08-2021 03:41 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  What about Grand Canyon University?

They were a for-profit school. They've since transitioned to non-profit, but the diploma mill stink is on them in the eyes of college presidents.

(09-08-2021 04:58 PM)JSchmack Wrote:  

(09-08-2021 03:41 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  What about Grand Canyon University?

They were a for-profit school. They've since transitioned to non-profit, but the diploma mill stink is on them in the eyes of college presidents.

They tried to fake it and imitate a non profit, but they are still a for profit school. Briefly, in their 100 million dollar advertising blitz, they claimed to be non profit but have since had to stop making that claim.

(09-08-2021 05:36 PM)Todor Wrote:  

(09-08-2021 04:58 PM)JSchmack Wrote:  

(09-08-2021 03:41 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  What about Grand Canyon University?

They were a for-profit school. They've since transitioned to non-profit, but the diploma mill stink is on them in the eyes of college presidents.

They tried to fake it and imitate a non profit, but they are still a for profit school. Briefly, in their 100 million dollar advertising blitz, they claimed to be non profit but have since had to stop making that claim.

Good insight. Didn't know that aspect. But that's 100% why no president is going to vote for them to join the WCC.

(09-08-2021 05:41 PM)JSchmack Wrote:  

(09-08-2021 05:36 PM)Todor Wrote:  

(09-08-2021 04:58 PM)JSchmack Wrote:  

(09-08-2021 03:41 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  What about Grand Canyon University?

They were a for-profit school. They've since transitioned to non-profit, but the diploma mill stink is on them in the eyes of college presidents.

They tried to fake it and imitate a non profit, but they are still a for profit school. Briefly, in their 100 million dollar advertising blitz, they claimed to be non profit but have since had to stop making that claim.

Good insight. Didn't know that aspect. But that's 100% why no president is going to vote for them to join the WCC.

Not exactly. My son just started at GCU. GCU was a non-profit school founded in 1949. It was sold to a corporation and went for profit in 2004. It started the process to return to non-profit status in 2014. The University is now non-profit, recognized by the IRS and the state of Arizona. There is a for profit corporation, GCU Education, that donates substantial resources to the University. Because the CEO of GCU Ed is the President of GCU, the feds have issues with GCU regarding the non-profit status with respect to financial aid. This is interesting case because there are many, many universities which have close affiliations with non-profits. But, the University is non-profit. ASU, which refused to play GCU because of its former for-profit status, reversed course and started playing them last year.

Now, as for the school, GCU had 1000 on-campus students when it went for profit in 2004. It grew to 17,000 over the next 10 years. This year, the school has 24,000 students on campus and 100,000 students online. The average GPA of the incoming class was 3.7. The campus is one of the nicest in the country (although the surrounding neighborhood sucks). Pools for every dorm quad. New class buildings. etc. Simply put, everything is new. The baseball system would be considered a nice minor league park. The soccer stadium is awesome. The arena seats around 7200 and very nice. The students filled the arena for the girls volleyball game last weekend and 1500 students had to be turned away. The school won 11 WAC championships last year. The school is growing and the academic standards are improving.

As a side note, if you are admitted to GCU, the school flies you out to campus on their dime. Tuition and room and board is incredibly cheap, about $17,000 - $19,000 per year, depending on the meal plan. Very technologically advanced campus. Plus, the faculty seem to genuinely believe in the mission of the school. That said, the school must make a fortune through its online programs. Simply put, its a great deal.

I get the stigma of the for-profit thing, but all things considered, GCU should be a very strong candidate if the WCC expands.

(09-09-2021 11:10 AM)bluesox Wrote:  Sounds like GCU would be a good pick up for the MWC to pair with Hawaii football only. I wonder what school GCU is eating students from for its growth, ASU?

From orientation, the freshmen class has students from all 50 states and 70 countries. Very aggressive recruiters. A good portion of the freshmen are from Phoenix, but I don't think they are competing for the same students as ASU. ASU is more selective, and GCU does get a number of students because of the Christian identity. The gave my son a $2000 per semester scholarship for having gone to a Catholic high school.

Being on campus, it would not surprise me if they started a football program in the next 5-10 years. They are so aggressive in expanding the University and using all means at their disposal. So, with the WAC dabbling in restarting a football conference, GCU may just stick around for that reason.

(09-09-2021 10:37 AM)MU88 Wrote:  

(09-08-2021 05:41 PM)JSchmack Wrote:  

(09-08-2021 05:36 PM)Todor Wrote:  

(09-08-2021 04:58 PM)JSchmack Wrote:  

(09-08-2021 03:41 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  What about Grand Canyon University?

They were a for-profit school. They've since transitioned to non-profit, but the diploma mill stink is on them in the eyes of college presidents.

They tried to fake it and imitate a non profit, but they are still a for profit school. Briefly, in their 100 million dollar advertising blitz, they claimed to be non profit but have since had to stop making that claim.

Good insight. Didn't know that aspect. But that's 100% why no president is going to vote for them to join the WCC.

Not exactly. My son just started at GCU. GCU was a non-profit school founded in 1949. It was sold to a corporation and went for profit in 2004. It started the process to return to non-profit status in 2014. The University is now non-profit, recognized by the IRS and the state of Arizona. There is a for profit corporation, GCU Education, that donates substantial resources to the University. Because the CEO of GCU Ed is the President of GCU, the feds have issues with GCU regarding the non-profit status with respect to financial aid. This is interesting case because there are many, many universities which have close affiliations with non-profits. But, the University is non-profit. ASU, which refused to play GCU because of its former for-profit status, reversed course and started playing them last year.

Now, as for the school, GCU had 1000 on-campus students when it went for profit in 2004. It grew to 17,000 over the next 10 years. This year, the school has 24,000 students on campus and 100,000 students online. The average GPA of the incoming class was 3.7. The campus is one of the nicest in the country (although the surrounding neighborhood sucks). Pools for every dorm quad. New class buildings. etc. Simply put, everything is new. The baseball system would be considered a nice minor league park. The soccer stadium is awesome. The arena seats around 7200 and very nice. The students filled the arena for the girls volleyball game last weekend and 1500 students had to be turned away. The school won 11 WAC championships last year. The school is growing and the academic standards are improving.

As a side note, if you are admitted to GCU, the school flies you out to campus on their dime. Tuition and room and board is incredibly cheap, about $17,000 - $19,000 per year, depending on the meal plan. Very technologically advanced campus. Plus, the faculty seem to genuinely believe in the mission of the school. That said, the school must make a fortune through its online programs. Simply put, its a great deal.

I get the stigma of the for-profit thing, but all things considered, GCU should be a very strong candidate if the WCC expands.

The small schools in the WCC aren't interested in being in a conference with a diploma mill that is using 100,000 online students to bankroll its athletic endeavors. Same deal as with Liberty. That GCU is still effectively a for-profit makes it that much worse.

(09-09-2021 12:38 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  

(09-09-2021 10:37 AM)MU88 Wrote:  

(09-08-2021 05:41 PM)JSchmack Wrote:  

(09-08-2021 05:36 PM)Todor Wrote:  

(09-08-2021 04:58 PM)JSchmack Wrote:  They were a for-profit school. They've since transitioned to non-profit, but the diploma mill stink is on them in the eyes of college presidents.

They tried to fake it and imitate a non profit, but they are still a for profit school. Briefly, in their 100 million dollar advertising blitz, they claimed to be non profit but have since had to stop making that claim.

Good insight. Didn't know that aspect. But that's 100% why no president is going to vote for them to join the WCC.

Not exactly. My son just started at GCU. GCU was a non-profit school founded in 1949. It was sold to a corporation and went for profit in 2004. It started the process to return to non-profit status in 2014. The University is now non-profit, recognized by the IRS and the state of Arizona. There is a for profit corporation, GCU Education, that donates substantial resources to the University. Because the CEO of GCU Ed is the President of GCU, the feds have issues with GCU regarding the non-profit status with respect to financial aid. This is interesting case because there are many, many universities which have close affiliations with non-profits. But, the University is non-profit. ASU, which refused to play GCU because of its former for-profit status, reversed course and started playing them last year.

Now, as for the school, GCU had 1000 on-campus students when it went for profit in 2004. It grew to 17,000 over the next 10 years. This year, the school has 24,000 students on campus and 100,000 students online. The average GPA of the incoming class was 3.7. The campus is one of the nicest in the country (although the surrounding neighborhood sucks). Pools for every dorm quad. New class buildings. etc. Simply put, everything is new. The baseball system would be considered a nice minor league park. The soccer stadium is awesome. The arena seats around 7200 and very nice. The students filled the arena for the girls volleyball game last weekend and 1500 students had to be turned away. The school won 11 WAC championships last year. The school is growing and the academic standards are improving.

As a side note, if you are admitted to GCU, the school flies you out to campus on their dime. Tuition and room and board is incredibly cheap, about $17,000 - $19,000 per year, depending on the meal plan. Very technologically advanced campus. Plus, the faculty seem to genuinely believe in the mission of the school. That said, the school must make a fortune through its online programs. Simply put, its a great deal.

I get the stigma of the for-profit thing, but all things considered, GCU should be a very strong candidate if the WCC expands.

The small schools in the WCC aren't interested in being in a conference with a diploma mill that is using 100,000 online students to bankroll its athletic endeavors. Same deal as with Liberty. That GCU is still effectively a for-profit makes it that much worse.

Yup

GCU has tried to fake out the Dept of Ed to appear non profit. They basically separated some of the academic personnel from the rest of the college. They call the professors non profit.

Pretty much everything else is own by Grand Canyon Education, Inc (Stock ticker LOPE)
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/stockdet...uration=1Y

The publicly traded corporation owns the campus, the arena, athletic fields, dorms, classrooms etc. The Corporation employs most of the employees normal functioning campuses have like Admissions, Financial Aid, Bursars Office, Bookstore, Cafeteria, Maintenance, HR, etc. The telemarketers that hound you if you respond to their $100+ million dollar a year advertising blitz are employees of the Corporation.

Grand Canyon University does not have a nice campus, Arena, a soccer stadium, high tech classrooms or pools at the dorms. Those are Grand Canyon Education Inc, and its investors, and GCU leases them.

Students are recruited by the corporation, and when they pay tuition, and nearly all of that tuition is then handed to the Wall Street side for the services they provide in support of the teaching. Its a shell game with the money basically.

The president of the University's "non profit" academic side is also the CEO of the Wall Street Corporation side. Convenient. He is also former CEO of the University of Phoenix, another for profit school.

I don't think GCU is a fraud or a scam. On campus, I don't think they have low standards or poor students. Online, I cannot say. But I don't doubt its on the up and up as well. However, that 100,000 number of students is a little jarring, and I know even today, even at schools with active online programs, they put GCU in a whole other category.

I know the theory that all schools are basically for profit blah blah blah. But not all schools have any connection to Wall Street, investors, returns, stock prices, dividends etc. And as long as that side is even in the picture, the status will be for profit in the public perception, as well as the perception of other college presidents.

In some ways, it might look like I'm splitting hairs here. I'm not. They split them to try to appear non profit. I'm just separating said split hairs so they can be seen individually.

(09-09-2021 01:18 PM)Todor Wrote:  GCU has tried to fake out the Dept of Ed to appear non profit. They basically separated some of the academic personnel from the rest of the college. They call the professors non profit.

Pretty much everything else is own by Grand Canyon Education, Inc (Stock ticker LOPE)
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/stockdet...uration=1Y

The publicly traded corporation owns the campus, the arena, athletic fields, dorms, classrooms etc. The Corporation employs most of the employees normal functioning campuses have like Admissions, Financial Aid, Bursars Office, Bookstore, Cafeteria, Maintenance, HR, etc. The telemarketers that hound you if you respond to their $100+ million dollar a year advertising blitz are employees of the Corporation.

Grand Canyon University does not have a nice campus, Arena, a soccer stadium, high tech classrooms or pools at the dorms. Those are Grand Canyon Education Inc, and its investors, and GCU leases them.

Students are recruited by the corporation, and when they pay tuition, and nearly all of that tuition is then handed to the Wall Street side for the services they provide in support of the teaching. Its a shell game with the money basically.

The president of the University's "non profit" academic side is also the CEO of the Wall Street Corporation side. Convenient. He is also former CEO of the University of Phoenix, another for profit school.

I don't think GCU is a fraud or a scam. On campus, I don't think they have low standards or poor students. Online, I cannot say. But I don't doubt its on the up and up as well. However, that 100,000 number of students is a little jarring, and I know even today, even at schools with active online programs, they put GCU in a whole other category.

I know the theory that all schools are basically for profit blah blah blah. But not all schools have any connection to Wall Street, investors, returns, stock prices, dividends etc. And as long as that side is even in the picture, the status will be for profit in the public perception, as well as the perception of other college presidents.

In some ways, it might look like I'm splitting hairs here. I'm not. They split them to try to appear non profit. I'm just separating said split hairs so they can be seen individually.

Not true.

Under the terms of a transaction that closed on July 1, 2018, Grand Canyon Education sold Grand Canyon University to a nonprofit entity that will retain the GCU name. The transaction returns GCU to its historical roots as a nonprofit university and ensures the long-term legacy of both GCU and GCE.

GCE has transferred to GCU the real property and improvements comprising the GCU campus as well as tangible and intangible academic and related operations and assets related to GCU. The purchase price, following post-closing adjustments, will be approximately $875 million, which GCU paid through the issuance of a seven-year, senior secured note.

In addition, GCU's faculty, academic leadership and related staff, which includes approximately 35 percent, or 1,400, of GCE's full-time employees and substantially all of GCE's 6,000 part-time and adjunct employees and student workers, transferred their employment from GCE to GCU.

As part of the transaction, GCE and GCU also entered into a long-term master services agreement in which GCE will provide technological, counseling, marketing, financial aid processing and other support services to GCU. The shared services arrangement is similar to that at hundreds of nonprofit universities in the country that outsource services to for-profit third-party providers.

GCU and GCE have completely independent governing boards. GCU has adopted a conflict of interest policy that prohibits any trustee from having a financial interest in, or role with, GCE.

(09-09-2021 01:55 PM)MU88 Wrote:  As part of the transaction, GCE and GCU also entered into a long-term master services agreement in which GCE will provide technological, counseling, marketing, financial aid processing and other support services to GCU. The shared services arrangement is similar to that at hundreds of nonprofit universities in the country that outsource services to for-profit third-party providers.

Tremendous spin. Have you considered politics? The president of GCU is the president of GCE. Your "shared services arrangement" argument might hold a few drops of water if that weren't true. But GCU is still very blatantly owned and controlled by a for-profit entity.

GCU applied to the Department of Education to be recognized as a nonprofit institution, and the DOE said no, twice. So GCU is now suing the government.

GCU sues federal government over rejection of nonprofit status

They're still categorized as for profit on the DOE's collegescorecard website - https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/school/?...University

I didn't want to get into this whole can of worms, and I try my best to talk about schools pragmatically and not in a derogatory way (even though it's hard because I'm blunt. Like, my school is St. Bonaventure, we're never getting into the Big East because they view us as "We're about major metro areas, and don't care if Rochester and Buffalo have little Division I competition, we'd still need to hire sherpas to find your damned campus").

The point is that as it relates to realignment, if there's a debate about this issue, the WCC won't invite them.

The great irony in all this is that University presidents look down their noses at schools like Grand Canyon because of the "taint" of profit status, and use that as a reason to avoid competing with them on the athletic fields. They do this even while their own athletic departments are behaving more and more like wholly owned subsidiaries of corporations like Disney, Fox, Nike, Adidas et al.

The reality is that those presidents may prove to be dinosaurs, as they are more and more being outcompeted in the marketplace by schools like Grand Canyon and Liberty who have been quick to recognize the significance of online learning as a cost efficient way of providing much of what we call higher education. As a matter of survival, the institutions that employ these presidents will learn from the Grand Canyons of the world, and copy from them those strategies that work better than the traditional norms of the ivory tower that is academia.

The world is changing -- fast. Schools better change with it, and sooner rather than later, unless they are fortunate enough to have multi-billion dollar endowments to shield them from the need to be efficient in the short run.

(09-09-2021 10:37 AM)MU88 Wrote:  

(09-08-2021 05:41 PM)JSchmack Wrote:  

(09-08-2021 05:36 PM)Todor Wrote:  

(09-08-2021 04:58 PM)JSchmack Wrote:  

(09-08-2021 03:41 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  What about Grand Canyon University?

They were a for-profit school. They've since transitioned to non-profit, but the diploma mill stink is on them in the eyes of college presidents.

They tried to fake it and imitate a non profit, but they are still a for profit school. Briefly, in their 100 million dollar advertising blitz, they claimed to be non profit but have since had to stop making that claim.

Good insight. Didn't know that aspect. But that's 100% why no president is going to vote for them to join the WCC.

Not exactly. My son just started at GCU. GCU was a non-profit school founded in 1949. It was sold to a corporation and went for profit in 2004. It started the process to return to non-profit status in 2014. The University is now non-profit, recognized by the IRS and the state of Arizona. There is a for profit corporation, GCU Education, that donates substantial resources to the University. Because the CEO of GCU Ed is the President of GCU, the feds have issues with GCU regarding the non-profit status with respect to financial aid. This is interesting case because there are many, many universities which have close affiliations with non-profits. But, the University is non-profit. ASU, which refused to play GCU because of its former for-profit status, reversed course and started playing them last year.

Now, as for the school, GCU had 1000 on-campus students when it went for profit in 2004. It grew to 17,000 over the next 10 years. This year, the school has 24,000 students on campus and 100,000 students online. The average GPA of the incoming class was 3.7. The campus is one of the nicest in the country (although the surrounding neighborhood sucks). Pools for every dorm quad. New class buildings. etc. Simply put, everything is new. The baseball system would be considered a nice minor league park. The soccer stadium is awesome. The arena seats around 7200 and very nice. The students filled the arena for the girls volleyball game last weekend and 1500 students had to be turned away. The school won 11 WAC championships last year. The school is growing and the academic standards are improving.

As a side note, if you are admitted to GCU, the school flies you out to campus on their dime. Tuition and room and board is incredibly cheap, about $17,000 - $19,000 per year, depending on the meal plan. Very technologically advanced campus. Plus, the faculty seem to genuinely believe in the mission of the school. That said, the school must make a fortune through its online programs. Simply put, its a great deal.

I get the stigma of the for-profit thing, but all things considered, GCU should be a very strong candidate if the WCC expands.

Grade inflation is rampant. 3.7 is like failing now.

(09-09-2021 03:29 PM)Wedge Wrote:  GCU applied to the Department of Education to be recognized as a nonprofit institution, and the DOE said no, twice. So GCU is now suing the government.

GCU sues federal government over rejection of nonprofit status

Yeah, it's amazing how so many people just outright lie on this board.

(09-09-2021 03:02 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  

(09-09-2021 01:55 PM)MU88 Wrote:  As part of the transaction, GCE and GCU also entered into a long-term master services agreement in which GCE will provide technological, counseling, marketing, financial aid processing and other support services to GCU. The shared services arrangement is similar to that at hundreds of nonprofit universities in the country that outsource services to for-profit third-party providers.

Tremendous spin. Have you considered politics? The president of GCU is the president of GCE. Your "shared services arrangement" argument might hold a few drops of water if that weren't true. But GCU is still very blatantly owned and controlled by a for-profit entity.

MU88 Is probably right that I got some of the details wrong in my description. And that is the nature of a shell game. Move em so fast no one knows where the ball is this time.

(09-09-2021 06:34 PM)Scoochpooch1 Wrote:  

(09-09-2021 03:29 PM)Wedge Wrote:  GCU applied to the Department of Education to be recognized as a nonprofit institution, and the DOE said no, twice. So GCU is now suing the government.

GCU sues federal government over rejection of nonprofit status

Yeah, it's amazing how so many people just outright lie on this board.

This lawsuit is actually the interesting part of the discussion. The state of Arizona and the IRS consider Grand Canyon non-profit. The DOE identifies GCU as for profit because GCE handles the student financial aid process, including distribution of the funds. By farming out these activities, the DOE is of the belief that someone is profiting from the financial aid process. That said, Universities routinely farm out various activities to for profit companies. So, GCU is basically arguing that DOE is neglecting the fact that two entities are not legally related. Sidenote, the fact that the University President is the CEO of the for profit company is sort of a red herring, since that isn't that unusual. For example, there are for-profit research foundations associated with Universities where there is an overlap in management. It is an interesting case.

Say what you want about GCU, but by partnering with GCE, the on campus university has grown 24 fold. The University now attracts students from all over the world and it has kept tuition very, very low. Is it Harvard? Of course not. But, it is an accredited university and offers a reasonable alternative to the non-flagship state universities and JUCO. A year at GCU is about $5000 cheaper than UW-Whitewater. It is about $35,000 cheaper than Colorado State, my son's other finalist. Plus, it would have taken 5 years to graduate at CSU, since CSU wasn't direct admit to the business school and he had to apply after his freshman year. So, it would have cost about $200,000 more for my son to attend CSU vs. GCU. For him, and many others, GCU is a good alternative. It really doesn't bother me if they farm out some of their support services, especially if it keeps his tuition low.