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Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
I don’t doubt there is a possibility of seed-planting with UMD and internal ACC dissent, but, being honest, UMD also burned a lot of bridges. And, historically, tended to be on the other side of the vote toward expansion and other measures. Enough so that even allies like Duke and UNC even gave in a bit to the demands of others.

I just think those old ties are overstated. Money won’t necessarily heal that wound for some years to come at best, and maybe a lifetime or greater at worst.
09-09-2021 01:43 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-08-2021 01:49 PM)BigEastMike Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 01:22 PM)ccd494 Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 12:43 PM)BigEastMike Wrote:  Cautionary tale? Haha don’t leave for a conference that pays a lot of money and stay in one that doesn’t pay much money and has no teams your fan base cares about?

Does the Big Ten pay a lot of money? Rutgers is seemingly not seeing any of it.

Also, granting for a second that the Big Ten was paying Rutgers a lot of money, is there a waiting list for season tickets to sit in the football stadium and watch the interest accrue on Rutgers' bank account?

Rutgers isn’t getting a full share yet, they have also made considerable upgrades to all their facilities and had to buy out two Coaches contracts. Acting like fans care more about playing whoever is left in the AAC over playing on the Big Ten is ridiculous. Ticket sales were down because the team has been god awful for a few years now. Like I said earlier, if they become consistent going to bowl games the ticket sales will go up. Schiano seems to be doing a good job so far. Leaving for the Big Ten was a no brainer and anyone who has moved up from the AAC recently will agree.

When Texas and Oklahoma decided to approach the SEC, it occurred to me that maybe one reason they did - not the biggest reason - but maybe one reason they contacted the SEC and not the B1G is just how the two leagues handle expansion.

The B1G, at least with respect to the last several teams it has added, has had all kinds of messy complications, with schools being phased in to the full share over many years, and having to take out loans in the interim, etc.

In contrast, the SEC seems much easier - IIRC, the recent schools like TAMU and Missouri were brought in with a full conference share from day one, no haggling over entry terms and the like.

The SEC just seems like a much easier league to join than the B1G. It's like the difference between two superstar rock bands that are each looking for a new guitarist. One group wants to bring you in on a limited salary, with equity rights in the band's revenue being phased in over a long probationary period, whereas with the other band, you're told "welcome aboard mate!" And you are a full-fledged member of the band from day one.
(This post was last modified: 09-09-2021 01:46 PM by quo vadis.)
09-09-2021 01:44 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-07-2021 07:00 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  "Moreover, the school’s contract with the Big Ten is secret — Rutgers conceded it does not even maintain a copy of the agreement, adding to the lack of transparency."

Sounds like another tactic from the Jim Delany hyper-secrecy playbook. If the conference office has the only copy of the contract, then a public university doesn't have to produce the contract in response to a FOIA request.

Reminds me of the story about Nebraska joining the Big Ten, when Delany met Tom Osborne and the Nebraska president in an undlsclosed city to close the deal. Osborne said afterward that he and the president were not told where the plane was going, and when the reporter asked where the meeting was held, Osborne said only Delany could decide whether to disclose that.
09-09-2021 01:52 PM
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UpStreamRedTeam Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-09-2021 01:44 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 01:49 PM)BigEastMike Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 01:22 PM)ccd494 Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 12:43 PM)BigEastMike Wrote:  Cautionary tale? Haha don’t leave for a conference that pays a lot of money and stay in one that doesn’t pay much money and has no teams your fan base cares about?

Does the Big Ten pay a lot of money? Rutgers is seemingly not seeing any of it.

Also, granting for a second that the Big Ten was paying Rutgers a lot of money, is there a waiting list for season tickets to sit in the football stadium and watch the interest accrue on Rutgers' bank account?

Rutgers isn’t getting a full share yet, they have also made considerable upgrades to all their facilities and had to buy out two Coaches contracts. Acting like fans care more about playing whoever is left in the AAC over playing on the Big Ten is ridiculous. Ticket sales were down because the team has been god awful for a few years now. Like I said earlier, if they become consistent going to bowl games the ticket sales will go up. Schiano seems to be doing a good job so far. Leaving for the Big Ten was a no brainer and anyone who has moved up from the AAC recently will agree.

When Texas and Oklahoma decided to approach the SEC, it occurred to me that maybe one reason they did - not the biggest reason - but maybe one reason they contacted the SEC and not the B1G is just how the two leagues handle expansion.

The B1G, at least with respect to the last several teams it has added, has had all kinds of messy complications, with schools being phased in to the full share over many years, and having to take out loans in the interim, etc.

In contrast, the SEC seems much easier - IIRC, the recent schools like TAMU and Missouri were brought in with a full conference share from day one, no haggling over entry terms and the like.

The SEC just seems like a much easier league to join than the B1G. It's like the difference between two superstar rock bands that are each looking for a new guitarist. One group wants to bring you in on a limited salary, with equity rights in the band's revenue being phased in over a long probationary period, whereas with the other band, you're told "welcome aboard mate!" And you are a full-fledged member of the band from day one.

For Rutgers, and I assume Maryland, the deferred share was in lieu of paying the entrance fee up front. I assume Texas or Oklahoma would not have an issue in cutting a check of any size for the entrance fee.
09-09-2021 01:56 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-09-2021 01:56 PM)UpStreamRedTeam Wrote:  
(09-09-2021 01:44 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 01:49 PM)BigEastMike Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 01:22 PM)ccd494 Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 12:43 PM)BigEastMike Wrote:  Cautionary tale? Haha don’t leave for a conference that pays a lot of money and stay in one that doesn’t pay much money and has no teams your fan base cares about?

Does the Big Ten pay a lot of money? Rutgers is seemingly not seeing any of it.

Also, granting for a second that the Big Ten was paying Rutgers a lot of money, is there a waiting list for season tickets to sit in the football stadium and watch the interest accrue on Rutgers' bank account?

Rutgers isn’t getting a full share yet, they have also made considerable upgrades to all their facilities and had to buy out two Coaches contracts. Acting like fans care more about playing whoever is left in the AAC over playing on the Big Ten is ridiculous. Ticket sales were down because the team has been god awful for a few years now. Like I said earlier, if they become consistent going to bowl games the ticket sales will go up. Schiano seems to be doing a good job so far. Leaving for the Big Ten was a no brainer and anyone who has moved up from the AAC recently will agree.

When Texas and Oklahoma decided to approach the SEC, it occurred to me that maybe one reason they did - not the biggest reason - but maybe one reason they contacted the SEC and not the B1G is just how the two leagues handle expansion.

The B1G, at least with respect to the last several teams it has added, has had all kinds of messy complications, with schools being phased in to the full share over many years, and having to take out loans in the interim, etc.

In contrast, the SEC seems much easier - IIRC, the recent schools like TAMU and Missouri were brought in with a full conference share from day one, no haggling over entry terms and the like.

The SEC just seems like a much easier league to join than the B1G. It's like the difference between two superstar rock bands that are each looking for a new guitarist. One group wants to bring you in on a limited salary, with equity rights in the band's revenue being phased in over a long probationary period, whereas with the other band, you're told "welcome aboard mate!" And you are a full-fledged member of the band from day one.

For Rutgers, and I assume Maryland, the deferred share was in lieu of paying the entrance fee up front. I assume Texas or Oklahoma would not have an issue in cutting a check of any size for the entrance fee.

I'm not sure the SEC has an entry fee. If it does, I've never heard of it.
09-09-2021 02:20 PM
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TexanMark Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
UT and OU are in a better bargaining position. Rutgers and Maryland were not as they had no other options.
09-09-2021 03:26 PM
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Post: #67
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-08-2021 09:25 PM)mikeinsec127 Wrote:  a Gannett owned paper with direct ties to the Newhouse School

Huh?
09-09-2021 04:54 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-09-2021 03:26 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  UT and OU are in a better bargaining position. Rutgers and Maryland were not as they had no other options.

Well IMO, if we look at the recent B1G additions - Nebraska, Maryland and Rutgers - only Rutgers was in a bad position, their AQ league was falling apart so they were truly desperate. In contrast, Nebraska left a stable Big 12 and Maryland left a stable ACC (their departures created instability in those leagues, but at the time they joined the B1G the leagues were fine, their power status unquestioned).

And yet the B1G treated all of them the same, including blue-blood Nebraska, with entrance fees and long probationary periods collecting partial money.

In contrast, IIRC, the SEC welcomed TAMU and Missouri in to the SEC with "open arms" - no entrance fees and immediate full shares - despite the fact that they were arguably in a weaker position than were UNL and Maryland, as by summer 2011 the Big 12 was looking very unstable.

So IMO, the SEC just appears to be an easier, no-hassle league to join - if they want you.
(This post was last modified: 09-10-2021 08:15 AM by quo vadis.)
09-10-2021 08:14 AM
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Post: #69
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-08-2021 10:32 AM)Pervis_Griffith Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 10:14 AM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  "Yet even as ticket sales have declined by 53% since 2015..."

What happened in 2015? Oh yeah, that's right, that's the season after Rutgers left the AAC. It's interesting that the slide in ticket sales corresponded to Rutgers leaving what was left of the BE, abandoning the last of it's traditional rivalries and relationships. Yes, the coaching situation and losing had a lot to do with it too, but I cannot help but think the abandoning of the relationships and rivalries built up over the previous 8 years (and longer) had a lot to do with it as well.

Not that I think Rutgers made a "bad" move, per se... But it should be something of a cautionary tale (I say this as my own favorite school is getting ready to jump conferences) that, in leaving a Conference where you have built-up history for a "new" conference, you cannot take your fans for granted. Especially in College Football, where the rivalries and histories are what CFB fans subsist on for 3/4 of the year.


This is a reach.

You're advocating staying in the Big East/American versus joining the Big Ten --- Just to maintain rivalries which were going away as those rivals jumped to other leagues around you. Syracuse, Boston College, West Virginia, Louisville, Pittsburgh ... all had bolted or were soon to bolt.

Choosing to stay would have been a worse decision than the series of financial decisions outlined in the article kicking off this thread.

Not necessarily. In fact, that's not what he was saying at all. The poster you quoted actually said it was a very good idea that Rutgers joined the B1G. What wasn't a good idea was abandoning too many of its traditional rivalries. Even if Rutgers couldn't have gotten an OOC series with Syracuse, West Virginia, or Pittsburgh, I'm sure BC, Temple, and/or UConn would have jumped on the opportunity to keep Rutgers on the schedule OOC. Athletics is about fans also, and a lot of people, including some posters on here as well, tend to forget about that.

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09-10-2021 09:02 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #70
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
What’s tough about the addition is seeing the empty stands against the “big dogs” in the conference, and maybe best games to fill the stadium: Penn State and Ohio State. I can’t forget or unsee those empty stands, because it infuriated me about who couldn’t get into the conference but wanted to, versus the one that did but has no loyalty or support from the students or fanbase. Bad weather and winning culture, or location excuses or no, those were national televised embarrassments.

Living right next to and formerly working in that state, the excitement, tone, and PR for the school was HUGE. Nothing like I’ve ever seen…across the whole darned state.

But the people never showed up or stayed.

There is no excuse for the ticket sales drops. Some of the best football programs come through that place. F’n show up. This isn’t about losing Navy, UConn, Cuse, or WV…and I get it that those sting…but you miss those guys when you get stuck with bland games like Illinois, Indiana, or Purdue coming through (and their lack of fans). Not empty houses for Penn State and Ohio State.
09-10-2021 09:57 AM
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Post: #71
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-08-2021 04:04 PM)BigEastMike Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 02:37 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 12:22 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 12:20 PM)BigEastMike Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 12:01 PM)PicksUp Wrote:  Schiano actually had them 3rd in winning % from 2005-2012 in the BE? Is that right? WV was the best program in terms of wins. Didnt even know that.

Those Rich Rod WVU teams were so much fun watching! He shouldn’t have ever left.

He had to leave. You don't pass up the Michigan job unless you are at, I don't know, Alabama or Notre Dame or USC or Ohio State.

But no question, he was never able to put it together like he did at WV.

Yes, and the thing is that he stumbled upon that dynamic duo of Pat White and Steve Slaton by accident. I think the starting qb was Bednarik? This guy was actually chosen by RichRod to start over Pat White. But then he got hurt and RichRod was forced to start Pat White. I have to admit that those teams with Pat White and Steve Slaton was the most exciting fb team I had ever watched. For me they are the football equivalent to UNLV of the 90's that Tarkanian coached. That was some exciting basketball to watch.

Who was the crazy fullback they used to have who would bash his own head bloody before games? hahaha

LOL, I forgot about him. Owen Schmitt (spelling) was his name. It really was a fun team to watch with all sorts of characters.
09-10-2021 10:00 AM
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Post: #72
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-10-2021 10:00 AM)cuseroc Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 04:04 PM)BigEastMike Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 02:37 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 12:22 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 12:20 PM)BigEastMike Wrote:  Those Rich Rod WVU teams were so much fun watching! He shouldn’t have ever left.

He had to leave. You don't pass up the Michigan job unless you are at, I don't know, Alabama or Notre Dame or USC or Ohio State.

But no question, he was never able to put it together like he did at WV.

Yes, and the thing is that he stumbled upon that dynamic duo of Pat White and Steve Slaton by accident. I think the starting qb was Bednarik? This guy was actually chosen by RichRod to start over Pat White. But then he got hurt and RichRod was forced to start Pat White. I have to admit that those teams with Pat White and Steve Slaton was the most exciting fb team I had ever watched. For me they are the football equivalent to UNLV of the 90's that Tarkanian coached. That was some exciting basketball to watch.

Who was the crazy fullback they used to have who would bash his own head bloody before games? hahaha

LOL, I forgot about him. Owen Schmitt (spelling) was his name. It really was a fun team to watch with all sorts of characters.

Last I heard, he owned a restaurant ("Schmitt's Saloon") in Morgantown that, and I kid you not, specialized in fried foods. Oh, and beer.

Edit: The saloon closed back in 2018...
(This post was last modified: 09-10-2021 10:09 AM by BearcatJerry.)
09-10-2021 10:07 AM
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Orangemen Offline
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Post: #73
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-10-2021 08:14 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(09-09-2021 03:26 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  UT and OU are in a better bargaining position. Rutgers and Maryland were not as they had no other options.

Well IMO, if we look at the recent B1G additions - Nebraska, Maryland and Rutgers - only Rutgers was in a bad position, their AQ league was falling apart so they were truly desperate. In contrast, Nebraska left a stable Big 12 and Maryland left a stable ACC (their departures created instability in those leagues, but at the time they joined the B1G the leagues were fine, their power status unquestioned).

And yet the B1G treated all of them the same, including blue-blood Nebraska, with entrance fees and long probationary periods collecting partial money.

In contrast, IIRC, the SEC welcomed TAMU and Missouri in to the SEC with "open arms" - no entrance fees and immediate full shares - despite the fact that they were arguably in a weaker position than were UNL and Maryland, as by summer 2011 the Big 12 was looking very unstable.

So IMO, the SEC just appears to be an easier, no-hassle league to join - if they want you.

Interesting point. The question I have is this a function of the B10 network structure, the near immediate value UT/OK bring to the table and the fact that UT/OK likely wouldn't have agreed to a subordinate position in making this mover or is it a function of the B10's negotiating stance?
09-10-2021 11:54 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #74
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-10-2021 08:14 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(09-09-2021 03:26 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  UT and OU are in a better bargaining position. Rutgers and Maryland were not as they had no other options.

Well IMO, if we look at the recent B1G additions - Nebraska, Maryland and Rutgers - only Rutgers was in a bad position, their AQ league was falling apart so they were truly desperate. In contrast, Nebraska left a stable Big 12 and Maryland left a stable ACC (their departures created instability in those leagues, but at the time they joined the B1G the leagues were fine, their power status unquestioned).

And yet the B1G treated all of them the same, including blue-blood Nebraska, with entrance fees and long probationary periods collecting partial money.

In contrast, IIRC, the SEC welcomed TAMU and Missouri in to the SEC with "open arms" - no entrance fees and immediate full shares - despite the fact that they were arguably in a weaker position than were UNL and Maryland, as by summer 2011 the Big 12 was looking very unstable.

So IMO, the SEC just appears to be an easier, no-hassle league to join - if they want you.

You could even throw Penn State in there, though, that was before there was a network and steady media revenue coming through. The conference iced the vote after it was leaked PSU was moving. Bryce Jordan Center was said to be a concession or peace offering to select schools that had a stink over playing basketball at Rec Hall. There was also some “pain” with scheduling in the season prior to joining the conference, especially for men’s basketball. Even the first season into the conference…the infamous “too loud” penalty.

Yeah, the Big Ten has a way of “initiating” its new guys.
09-11-2021 03:56 PM
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Post: #75
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-10-2021 10:07 AM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  
(09-10-2021 10:00 AM)cuseroc Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 04:04 PM)BigEastMike Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 02:37 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 12:22 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  He had to leave. You don't pass up the Michigan job unless you are at, I don't know, Alabama or Notre Dame or USC or Ohio State.

But no question, he was never able to put it together like he did at WV.

Yes, and the thing is that he stumbled upon that dynamic duo of Pat White and Steve Slaton by accident. I think the starting qb was Bednarik? This guy was actually chosen by RichRod to start over Pat White. But then he got hurt and RichRod was forced to start Pat White. I have to admit that those teams with Pat White and Steve Slaton was the most exciting fb team I had ever watched. For me they are the football equivalent to UNLV of the 90's that Tarkanian coached. That was some exciting basketball to watch.

Who was the crazy fullback they used to have who would bash his own head bloody before games? hahaha

LOL, I forgot about him. Owen Schmitt (spelling) was his name. It really was a fun team to watch with all sorts of characters.

Last I heard, he owned a restaurant ("Schmitt's Saloon") in Morgantown that, and I kid you not, specialized in fried foods. Oh, and beer.

Edit: The saloon closed back in 2018...

Thats great, he became an entrepreneur. Too bad his saloon didnt work out. Surprising since he was a WV legend that it didnt work out for him. Those WV folks almost worship their teams
09-11-2021 10:11 PM
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TexanMark Offline
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RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
09-14-2021 11:47 AM
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Post: #77
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
I'm not a 'Cuse fan or a fan of any Rutgers' rivals, but looking at their RWJBarnabas complex, I saw a lot of waste going on!!! Why can't the men and women's basketball teams share a practice facility?? Better yet, why does the wrestling team even need its own practice facility???? At my alma mater, the University of Montevallo, the college stressed that any student could use the exact same facilities that the athletes, as long as there wasn't a team practice session going on, and vast majority of students, including myself, had no problems/issues complying with that request!!! Sheesh, a lot of the athletes that were at my school were some of my very best friends, and one was like a brother to me.
09-14-2021 12:27 PM
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Post: #78
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-14-2021 11:47 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  https://www.northjersey.com/story/news/2...259666002/

Rutgers always had a very adversarial local press and i would go so far to say the most negative local press of any P5 program. If this type of investigations happened with every P5 school lots of schools wouldn't look good.

Rutgers is making investments in order to obtain future gains. It's not some gotcha situation, clearly they will be able to get into the black within a decade after getting a full share of Big Ten revenue and an improved product on the field. Their bball program is already improved by leaps from where it was in the Big East.
09-14-2021 12:30 PM
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Post: #79
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-14-2021 12:30 PM)BigEastMike Wrote:  
(09-14-2021 11:47 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  https://www.northjersey.com/story/news/2...259666002/

Rutgers always had a very adversarial local press and i would go so far to say the most negative local press of any P5 program. If this type of investigations happened with every P5 school lots of schools wouldn't look good.

Rutgers is making investments in order to obtain future gains. It's not some gotcha situation, clearly they will be able to get into the black within a decade after getting a full share of Big Ten revenue and an improved product on the field. Their bball program is already improved by leaps from where it was in the Big East.

You’re minimizing, or rationalizing, bad fiscal management. There is no guarantee that Rutgers athletics will be in “the black within a decade after getting a full share of Big Ten revenue”. Per the article, in FY2020 Rutgers used $73M in subsidies (both required student contributions and loans) to fund athletic operations…not one-time capital projects, but operations.

Donations and ticket revenues have been cratering, and no one is being held accountable. The COVID pandemic is now exacerbating bad financial management and the university is likely going to have to write-off about $200M in bad loans to its athletic department. Most B1G universities are able operate with self-sufficient athletic departments…Rutgers doesn’t have the fan base to compete in the B1G. Rutgers needs more than just full B1G media payouts.
09-15-2021 11:31 AM
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Post: #80
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-15-2021 11:31 AM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  
(09-14-2021 12:30 PM)BigEastMike Wrote:  
(09-14-2021 11:47 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  https://www.northjersey.com/story/news/2...259666002/

Rutgers always had a very adversarial local press and i would go so far to say the most negative local press of any P5 program. If this type of investigations happened with every P5 school lots of schools wouldn't look good.

Rutgers is making investments in order to obtain future gains. It's not some gotcha situation, clearly they will be able to get into the black within a decade after getting a full share of Big Ten revenue and an improved product on the field. Their bball program is already improved by leaps from where it was in the Big East.

You’re minimizing, or rationalizing, bad fiscal management. There is no guarantee that Rutgers athletics will be in “the black within a decade after getting a full share of Big Ten revenue”. Per the article, in FY2020 Rutgers used $73M in subsidies (both required student contributions and loans) to fund athletic operations…not one-time capital projects, but operations.

Donations and ticket revenues have been cratering, and no one is being held accountable. The COVID pandemic is now exacerbating bad financial management and the university is likely going to have to write-off about $200M in bad loans to its athletic department. Most B1G universities are able operate with self-sufficient athletic departments…Rutgers doesn’t have the fan base to compete in the B1G. Rutgers needs more than just full B1G media payouts.

Most big ten schools are getting the full value of a big ten payout while Rutgers isn’t and came in from a conference making considerably less money. Ticket sales fell off because of two bad hires and are already turning around under Schiano.

Lots of AAC and ACC schools trying to pile on Rutgers on these boards. Fans who thinks their schools are so much better and more deserving than Rutgers.
09-15-2021 12:09 PM
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