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Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
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PicksUp Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-08-2021 11:42 AM)BigEastMike Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 11:20 AM)PicksUp Wrote:  What happened in 2015? They started to lose more games than they won! So they went back to sucking.

Exactly, if Schiano can get them to 6 or 7 wins most years that’s a success for that program. Most of you wouldn’t think it is but for a school who spent years mired in not mediocrity but awfulness being a decent team in a great league is a win.

They also have been scheduling local rivals like Temple, Syracuse and BC in OOC games.

Schiano actually had them 3rd in winning % from 2005-2012 in the BE? Is that right? WV was the best program in terms of wins. Didnt even know that.
09-08-2021 12:01 PM
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Post: #42
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-08-2021 12:01 PM)PicksUp Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 11:42 AM)BigEastMike Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 11:20 AM)PicksUp Wrote:  What happened in 2015? They started to lose more games than they won! So they went back to sucking.

Exactly, if Schiano can get them to 6 or 7 wins most years that’s a success for that program. Most of you wouldn’t think it is but for a school who spent years mired in not mediocrity but awfulness being a decent team in a great league is a win.

They also have been scheduling local rivals like Temple, Syracuse and BC in OOC games.

Schiano actually had them 3rd in winning % from 2005-2012 in the BE? Is that right? WV was the best program in terms of wins. Didnt even know that.

Those Rich Rod WVU teams were so much fun watching! He shouldn’t have ever left.
09-08-2021 12:20 PM
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Post: #43
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-08-2021 12:20 PM)BigEastMike Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 12:01 PM)PicksUp Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 11:42 AM)BigEastMike Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 11:20 AM)PicksUp Wrote:  What happened in 2015? They started to lose more games than they won! So they went back to sucking.

Exactly, if Schiano can get them to 6 or 7 wins most years that’s a success for that program. Most of you wouldn’t think it is but for a school who spent years mired in not mediocrity but awfulness being a decent team in a great league is a win.

They also have been scheduling local rivals like Temple, Syracuse and BC in OOC games.

Schiano actually had them 3rd in winning % from 2005-2012 in the BE? Is that right? WV was the best program in terms of wins. Didnt even know that.

Those Rich Rod WVU teams were so much fun watching! He shouldn’t have ever left.

He had to leave. You don't pass up the Michigan job unless you are at, I don't know, Alabama or Notre Dame or USC or Ohio State.

But no question, he was never able to put it together like he did at WV.
09-08-2021 12:22 PM
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Post: #44
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-08-2021 11:04 AM)dbackjon Wrote:  What rivals were left had they stayed?

[Image: giphy.gif]

(09-08-2021 09:40 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I honestly don’t know what to think of that bit about there being no copy of the conference contract.

It's clearly a subterfuge to try to keep the public from seeing the contract. Public records laws vary from state to state, but a public record is commonly defined as a record "kept by a public office." The position of Rutgers (and Maryland, it appears) is that: The record isn't kept by us, therefore it is not a public record, and in any case we can't disclose something we do not have.

I can't help but wonder: Do attorneys from Rutgers or Maryland have to fly to Chicago to inspect their contract with the Big Ten? Or is a Big Ten flunky willing to flash relevant portions of it on a screen during a Zoom call? (Unrecorded, of course.)

Also: Many states have record retention laws. Could Rutgers and Maryland have really signed contracts that never came into their possession at all? And if the contract was once in the possession of these universities, was its disposal proper? A contract that imposes certain obligations on your organization would seem to be a pretty important record to keep around.

Anyway: The mess Rutgers apparently finds itself seems like a cautionary tale to any university considering switching conference affiliations. While the revenue may go up, so can the expenses. It might not always be a win.
09-08-2021 12:25 PM
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Post: #45
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-08-2021 10:41 AM)BigEastMike Wrote:  
(09-07-2021 10:00 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  So this is New Jersey and people think it's unusual a mere $265m vanished? I mean Jimmy Hoffa vanished too. 04-coffee

Haha to be fair Hoffa disappeared in Michigan

Referring to the Meadowlands stadium concrete burial myth.
09-08-2021 12:29 PM
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Post: #46
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-08-2021 12:25 PM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 11:04 AM)dbackjon Wrote:  What rivals were left had they stayed?

[Image: giphy.gif]

(09-08-2021 09:40 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I honestly don’t know what to think of that bit about there being no copy of the conference contract.

It's clearly a subterfuge to try to keep the public from seeing the contract. Public records laws vary from state to state, but a public record is commonly defined as a record "kept by a public office." The position of Rutgers (and Maryland, it appears) is that: The record isn't kept by us, therefore it is not a public record, and in any case we can't disclose something we do not have.

I can't help but wonder: Do attorneys from Rutgers or Maryland have to fly to Chicago to inspect their contract with the Big Ten? Or is a Big Ten flunky willing to flash relevant portions of it on a screen during a Zoom call? (Unrecorded, of course.)

Also: Many states have record retention laws. Could Rutgers and Maryland have really signed contracts that never came into their possession at all? And if the contract was once in the possession of these universities, was its disposal proper? A contract that imposes certain obligations on your organization would seem to be a pretty important record to keep around.

Anyway: The mess Rutgers apparently finds itself seems like a cautionary tale to any university considering switching conference affiliations. While the revenue may go up, so can the expenses. It might not always be a win.

Cautionary tale? Haha don’t leave for a conference that pays a lot of money and stay in one that doesn’t pay much money and has no teams your fan base cares about?
09-08-2021 12:43 PM
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Post: #47
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-08-2021 12:43 PM)BigEastMike Wrote:  Cautionary tale? Haha don’t leave for a conference that pays a lot of money and stay in one that doesn’t pay much money and has no teams your fan base cares about?

Does the Big Ten pay a lot of money? Rutgers is seemingly not seeing any of it.

Also, granting for a second that the Big Ten was paying Rutgers a lot of money, is there a waiting list for season tickets to sit in the football stadium and watch the interest accrue on Rutgers' bank account?
09-08-2021 01:22 PM
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Post: #48
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-08-2021 12:25 PM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  I can't help but wonder: Do attorneys from Rutgers or Maryland have to fly to Chicago to inspect their contract with the Big Ten? Or is a Big Ten flunky willing to flash relevant portions of it on a screen during a Zoom call? (Unrecorded, of course.)

Also: Many states have record retention laws. Could Rutgers and Maryland have really signed contracts that never came into their possession at all? And if the contract was once in the possession of these universities, was its disposal proper? A contract that imposes certain obligations on your organization would seem to be a pretty important record to keep around.

"The 16 members of the Board of Regents were notified Thursday of the proposal, and we participated in a telephone call Sunday in which the details were verbally presented to us. On Monday morning, we had to vote on the move.

When we asked why we couldn’t hear from other stakeholders, we were told that the nondisclosure agreement signed with the Big Ten prevented such a discussion. We were further told that, under the terms of that agreement, Maryland could lose the offer and the university president could be held personally liable if details were divulged.

Maryland couldn’t even discuss the proposal with the Atlantic Coast Conference, to which it had belonged for nearly 60 years and had helped found. The board members were each given a single piece of paper outlining the proposal, and it was taken away when Monday’s meeting ended. I get more documentation when I buy a cell phone."


https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/...story.html
09-08-2021 01:36 PM
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BigEastMike Online
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Post: #49
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-08-2021 01:22 PM)ccd494 Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 12:43 PM)BigEastMike Wrote:  Cautionary tale? Haha don’t leave for a conference that pays a lot of money and stay in one that doesn’t pay much money and has no teams your fan base cares about?

Does the Big Ten pay a lot of money? Rutgers is seemingly not seeing any of it.

Also, granting for a second that the Big Ten was paying Rutgers a lot of money, is there a waiting list for season tickets to sit in the football stadium and watch the interest accrue on Rutgers' bank account?

Rutgers isn’t getting a full share yet, they have also made considerable upgrades to all their facilities and had to buy out two Coaches contracts. Acting like fans care more about playing whoever is left in the AAC over playing on the Big Ten is ridiculous. Ticket sales were down because the team has been god awful for a few years now. Like I said earlier, if they become consistent going to bowl games the ticket sales will go up. Schiano seems to be doing a good job so far. Leaving for the Big Ten was a no brainer and anyone who has moved up from the AAC recently will agree.
09-08-2021 01:49 PM
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Post: #50
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-08-2021 12:22 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 12:20 PM)BigEastMike Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 12:01 PM)PicksUp Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 11:42 AM)BigEastMike Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 11:20 AM)PicksUp Wrote:  What happened in 2015? They started to lose more games than they won! So they went back to sucking.

Exactly, if Schiano can get them to 6 or 7 wins most years that’s a success for that program. Most of you wouldn’t think it is but for a school who spent years mired in not mediocrity but awfulness being a decent team in a great league is a win.

They also have been scheduling local rivals like Temple, Syracuse and BC in OOC games.

Schiano actually had them 3rd in winning % from 2005-2012 in the BE? Is that right? WV was the best program in terms of wins. Didnt even know that.

Those Rich Rod WVU teams were so much fun watching! He shouldn’t have ever left.

He had to leave. You don't pass up the Michigan job unless you are at, I don't know, Alabama or Notre Dame or USC or Ohio State.

But no question, he was never able to put it together like he did at WV.

Yes, and the thing is that he stumbled upon that dynamic duo of Pat White and Steve Slaton by accident. I think the starting qb was Bednarik? This guy was actually chosen by RichRod to start over Pat White. But then he got hurt and RichRod was forced to start Pat White. I have to admit that those teams with Pat White and Steve Slaton was the most exciting fb team I had ever watched. For me they are the football equivalent to UNLV of the 90's that Tarkanian coached. That was some exciting basketball to watch.
09-08-2021 02:37 PM
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Post: #51
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-08-2021 12:43 PM)BigEastMike Wrote:  Cautionary tale? Haha don’t leave for a conference that pays a lot of money and stay in one that doesn’t pay much money and has no teams your fan base cares about?

To be clear, I think Rutgers made the correct call. But this shows how expenses can also go way up with such a move.

Now imagine a school like Marshall or Buffalo joining the American Athletic. Travel expenses would go way, way up. (Especially for Buffalo.) Salaries probably would too, just to try to compete for talent. Meanwhile, the value of that TV deal isn't anywhere near what the Big Ten can offer, and it's falling.

It will be interesting to see if Cincinnati or Houston or Central Florida encounter similar issues trying to keep up in the Medium 12. It feels like less of a stretch -- but who could have imagined Rutgers encountering this much financial trouble joining the Big Ten?
(This post was last modified: 09-08-2021 03:04 PM by Schadenfreude.)
09-08-2021 03:04 PM
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Post: #52
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-08-2021 03:04 PM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 12:43 PM)BigEastMike Wrote:  Cautionary tale? Haha don’t leave for a conference that pays a lot of money and stay in one that doesn’t pay much money and has no teams your fan base cares about?

To be clear, I think Rutgers made the correct call. But this shows how expenses can also go way up with such a move.

Now imagine a school like Marshall or Buffalo joining the American Athletic. Travel expenses would go way, way up. (Especially for Buffalo.) Salaries probably would too, just to try to compete for talent. Meanwhile, the value of that TV deal isn't anywhere near what the Big Ten can offer, and it's falling.

It will be interesting to see if Cincinnati or Houston or Central Florida encounter similar issues trying to keep up in the Medium 12. It feels like less of a stretch -- but who could have imagined Rutgers encountering this much financial trouble joining the Big Ten?

Agree

With regards to other schools that could face similar financial problems moving to new conferences...I would be worried about all the AAC schools that are moving to the B12. BYU is probably fine, but the athletic department budgets at Cincinnati, Houston and USF are much smaller and aren't up to the standards of the rest of the B12. Lot's of posts make fun of Kansas' football failures...but Kansas actually excels financially. Kansas is the state flagship institution that has a strong fan base. Athletic department revenue at Kansas is double that of the incoming AAC schools. Schools like TCU, Baylor, WVU, Okie State and KState all have strong revenue pipelines that could be used to exploit the financial shortfalls of the incoming schools.
(This post was last modified: 09-08-2021 04:22 PM by Wahoowa84.)
09-08-2021 03:54 PM
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BigEastMike Online
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Post: #53
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-08-2021 02:37 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 12:22 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 12:20 PM)BigEastMike Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 12:01 PM)PicksUp Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 11:42 AM)BigEastMike Wrote:  Exactly, if Schiano can get them to 6 or 7 wins most years that’s a success for that program. Most of you wouldn’t think it is but for a school who spent years mired in not mediocrity but awfulness being a decent team in a great league is a win.

They also have been scheduling local rivals like Temple, Syracuse and BC in OOC games.

Schiano actually had them 3rd in winning % from 2005-2012 in the BE? Is that right? WV was the best program in terms of wins. Didnt even know that.

Those Rich Rod WVU teams were so much fun watching! He shouldn’t have ever left.

He had to leave. You don't pass up the Michigan job unless you are at, I don't know, Alabama or Notre Dame or USC or Ohio State.

But no question, he was never able to put it together like he did at WV.

Yes, and the thing is that he stumbled upon that dynamic duo of Pat White and Steve Slaton by accident. I think the starting qb was Bednarik? This guy was actually chosen by RichRod to start over Pat White. But then he got hurt and RichRod was forced to start Pat White. I have to admit that those teams with Pat White and Steve Slaton was the most exciting fb team I had ever watched. For me they are the football equivalent to UNLV of the 90's that Tarkanian coached. That was some exciting basketball to watch.

Who was the crazy fullback they used to have who would bash his own head bloody before games? hahaha
09-08-2021 04:04 PM
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BigEastMike Online
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Post: #54
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-08-2021 03:04 PM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 12:43 PM)BigEastMike Wrote:  Cautionary tale? Haha don’t leave for a conference that pays a lot of money and stay in one that doesn’t pay much money and has no teams your fan base cares about?

To be clear, I think Rutgers made the correct call. But this shows how expenses can also go way up with such a move.

Now imagine a school like Marshall or Buffalo joining the American Athletic. Travel expenses would go way, way up. (Especially for Buffalo.) Salaries probably would too, just to try to compete for talent. Meanwhile, the value of that TV deal isn't anywhere near what the Big Ten can offer, and it's falling.

It will be interesting to see if Cincinnati or Houston or Central Florida encounter similar issues trying to keep up in the Medium 12. It feels like less of a stretch -- but who could have imagined Rutgers encountering this much financial trouble joining the Big Ten?

The travel would have been worse in the AAC. The Big Ten East is a much better travel situation. It's not really financial trouble, it's an investment into a long long long term partnership.
09-08-2021 05:00 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-08-2021 02:37 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 12:22 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 12:20 PM)BigEastMike Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 12:01 PM)PicksUp Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 11:42 AM)BigEastMike Wrote:  Exactly, if Schiano can get them to 6 or 7 wins most years that’s a success for that program. Most of you wouldn’t think it is but for a school who spent years mired in not mediocrity but awfulness being a decent team in a great league is a win.

They also have been scheduling local rivals like Temple, Syracuse and BC in OOC games.

Schiano actually had them 3rd in winning % from 2005-2012 in the BE? Is that right? WV was the best program in terms of wins. Didnt even know that.

Those Rich Rod WVU teams were so much fun watching! He shouldn’t have ever left.

He had to leave. You don't pass up the Michigan job unless you are at, I don't know, Alabama or Notre Dame or USC or Ohio State.

But no question, he was never able to put it together like he did at WV.

Yes, and the thing is that he stumbled upon that dynamic duo of Pat White and Steve Slaton by accident. I think the starting qb was Bednarik? This guy was actually chosen by RichRod to start over Pat White. But then he got hurt and RichRod was forced to start Pat White. I have to admit that those teams with Pat White and Steve Slaton was the most exciting fb team I had ever watched. For me they are the football equivalent to UNLV of the 90's that Tarkanian coached. That was some exciting basketball to watch.

No question, those White and Slaton WV teams of the mid-late 2000s were helluva fun to watch. As a historical tidbit, IIRC Pat White was originally recruited by Nick Saban to play WR at LSU, but then changed his mind and went to WV because they said he could be a QB.

You can argue Saban blew that, but then again the LSU teams of the time when White was at WV did have JaMarcus Russell, who was a great college QB even though he was an NFL flop, and when White was drafted out of college, the NFL only had interest in him as a kind of wildcat QB and didn't last long (White has literally zero NFL career passing yards). Maybe if he had played WR in college, he would have gotten good enough to stick in the league.

As for hoops, you must have missed the UNLV teams of the 1970s. Tark's 1977 team that made the F4 was maybe the most exciting team I ever saw. And they were playing with no shot clock or 3-point line. :)
(This post was last modified: 09-08-2021 06:28 PM by quo vadis.)
09-08-2021 06:16 PM
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Post: #56
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-08-2021 01:49 PM)BigEastMike Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 01:22 PM)ccd494 Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 12:43 PM)BigEastMike Wrote:  Cautionary tale? Haha don’t leave for a conference that pays a lot of money and stay in one that doesn’t pay much money and has no teams your fan base cares about?

Does the Big Ten pay a lot of money? Rutgers is seemingly not seeing any of it.

Also, granting for a second that the Big Ten was paying Rutgers a lot of money, is there a waiting list for season tickets to sit in the football stadium and watch the interest accrue on Rutgers' bank account?

Rutgers isn’t getting a full share yet, they have also made considerable upgrades to all their facilities and had to buy out two Coaches contracts. Acting like fans care more about playing whoever is left in the AAC over playing on the Big Ten is ridiculous. Ticket sales were down because the team has been god awful for a few years now. Like I said earlier, if they become consistent going to bowl games the ticket sales will go up. Schiano seems to be doing a good job so far. Leaving for the Big Ten was a no brainer and anyone who has moved up from the AAC recently will agree.
I remember when they were joining the B1G that they even said they would have to run huge deficits and probably have to borrow money until they got their full share. Now everyone is stunned that it's happening. It's going according to plan. They knew they would have to upgrade their facilities and get better coaches.
09-08-2021 07:06 PM
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mikeinsec127 Offline
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Post: #57
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-07-2021 03:26 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  Amazing read. If this was a corporation people would be going to prison.

https://www.njherald.com/in-depth/news/w...1QSa-d_vu0

Oh good, a disparaging news article about Rutgers published in a Gannett owned paper with direct ties to the Newhouse School, just happens to drop the week of the Syracuse game.

First, misappropriation of public funds is just the way it is in NJ.

Second, even if this was a private company nobody would be going to jail, you would have never heard about it.

Finally and most important, the reporters never touch on what alternative course Rutgers had.
The only option was the safety and security of the BIG Ten. RU is where it belongs as a member of the richest and most prestigious association of public universities there is.
What other choice did RU have? Stay in the AAC with a collection second and third tier universities with which we mostly had no history, dealing with equally high travel costs and one fourth the revenue; only to be left out when the B12 would expand and not invite us. There was no going back to the BE, so at best the second alternative would have us end up back in the A-10 as another, poorer version of UConn or UMass. Better yet, we could have taken NJIT's spot in America East, playing the NYNE publics and park our football in the CAA.
I can only imagine what kind of stories the local press would be writing about any of that.
09-08-2021 09:25 PM
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TexanMark Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-08-2021 09:25 PM)mikeinsec127 Wrote:  
(09-07-2021 03:26 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  Amazing read. If this was a corporation people would be going to prison.

https://www.njherald.com/in-depth/news/w...1QSa-d_vu0

Oh good, a disparaging news article about Rutgers published in a Gannett owned paper with direct ties to the Newhouse School, just happens to drop the week of the Syracuse game.

First, misappropriation of public funds is just the way it is in NJ.

Second, even if this was a private company nobody would be going to jail, you would have never heard about it.

Finally and most important, the reporters never touch on what alternative course Rutgers had.
The only option was the safety and security of the BIG Ten. RU is where it belongs as a member of the richest and most prestigious association of public universities there is.
What other choice did RU have? Stay in the AAC with a collection second and third tier universities with which we mostly had no history, dealing with equally high travel costs and one fourth the revenue; only to be left out when the B12 would expand and not invite us. There was no going back to the BE, so at best the second alternative would have us end up back in the A-10 as another, poorer version of UConn or UMass. Better yet, we could have taken NJIT's spot in America East, playing the NYNE publics and park our football in the CAA.
I can only imagine what kind of stories the local press would be writing about any of that.

What ties does Gannett have to the Newhouse School?
09-08-2021 09:34 PM
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TexanMark Offline
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Post: #59
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
I'm still waiting on how Gannett has direct ties to the Newhouse School at SU. I'm curious what connection there is.

BTW, NJ.com is owned by Newhouse maybe that is what you are thinking...but it would make your point moot.
09-09-2021 12:42 PM
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Post: #60
RE: Rutgers $265M Debt to Be in the B1G
(09-08-2021 11:17 AM)Wolfman Wrote:  The B1G doesn't care about Rutgers, Maryland, or their finances. They were added based on the cable model. The B1G gets the same amount of money when games are played in those states. It doesn't matter if there are 5 or 50,000 people in the stands.

Another benefit to adding Maryland was the possibility of causing a crack in the ACC.

IMO, the bolded part merits more emphasis. Rutgers and Maryland were added for two reasons: The cable model you mention, and also the strategic dimension - blocking the ACC. With the acquisition of Pitt and Syracuse, the ACC was threatening to become "the" P5 league of the lucrative northeast corridor from Boston down to the DMV.

By adding Maryland and Rutgers, the B1G effectively claimed a significant stake in that lucrative area for its own, while yes, ousting the ACC from one of its key markets.
(This post was last modified: 09-09-2021 01:38 PM by quo vadis.)
09-09-2021 01:38 PM
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