(01-10-2022 08:57 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Was it luck that a UAB linebacker tried to run with an interception instead of falling to the ground and ending the game? No, that was poor preparation. Was it luck that he fumbled? Maybe. Was it luck that Rice recovered the fumble? Maybe. Was it luck that Rice converted that fumble recovery into the wining points? No, that was preparation.

Numbers, we have debated this before. Luck is what happens to us that we have no control over. The LB dropping that ball was luck. It bouncing where it did was luck. Rice had no control or input into either happening. We won the lottery in that game. Both had to happen for us to have a shot at winning. Neither was the result of Graham's coaching, unless you think Graham was the first coach to tell Barber that if you see the ball on the ground, fall on it.

Quote:Was it luck that an East Carolina receiver who got open behind our secondary dropped a pass for what would have been almost certainly would have put the game away?

Was it due to something we did? If not, we got lucky.

Quote: Was it luck that our third string QB threw up a prayer on 4th and forever that our All-American wide receiver outjumped and outfought multiple ECU defensive backs to catch? No, that was skill and ability of our WR, aided by preparation.

The catch was skill/prep/luck. the throw was a desperation heave, the hail mary-est of Hail Marys. The play happened in front of me.

Quote:Was it luck that with 20 seconds left and no time out, Rice was able to run a play to get the ball to where the kicker wanted it, then spike the ball to stop the clock with IIRC 4 seconds left, then hit a longish field goal to win? No, those were all preparation.

Not luck at all, since that is what we were trying to do. Good execution. It was luck though that got us the second chance, after our well prepared QB threw an interception that should have ended the game.

Quote:I've said it many times before, but I would like to be a fan of the luckiest team in football.

Me too. Over the last 60 years, that has not been Rice. In fact, IMO, just the opposite.

Quote:To put it in a football context, would David Bailiff's teams have won those games?

No way to tell. Maybe so, maybe not. Which Bailiff team?

(01-10-2022 09:14 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  No way to tell. Maybe so, maybe not. Which Bailiff team?

None that I ever saw. When he was first hired, a coach at another Southland school told me, "His teams always play hard, but sloppy." That would be my assessment of his teams at Rice.

He has been replaced by someone whose teams are not as sloppy, but do not appear to me to be playing hard all the time.

So, Rice's last three football coaches would appear to be:

1) a jerk and a creep
2) someone whose teams always played hard but sloppy
3) someone whose teams don't always play hard

None of those are what you want.

(01-10-2022 09:14 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Me too. Over the last 60 years, that has not been Rice. In fact, IMO, just the opposite.

But it was in 2006. What was different?

Did Rice suddenly experience a massive reversal of fortune? Or was the Rice football team simply better prepared to deal with it? The latter seems more likely to me.

As I said, give the devil his due. That doesn't mean that I like him, or that he isn't the devil.

What he is, is a jerk and a creep. Baseball pundit Bill James, in his book on managers (a eclectic collection of essays which IMO is an absolute must read for any baseball fan) describes Billy Martin as a jerk and Leo Durocher as a creep. But both were successful managers. I wouldn’t want either as a manager, but give both their due. I wouldn’t want anyone who combines the worst of both as a football coach, but I will give the devil his due. Unfortunately for one T Graham, his jerkiness and creepiness seem to have overtaken his ability to win football games.

Surely there is a coach out there who can build a successful football program while being a decent human being. Rice just hasn’t found him, unfortunately.

(01-10-2022 09:31 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-10-2022 09:14 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  No way to tell. Maybe so, maybe not. Which Bailiff team?

None that I ever saw. When he was first hired, a coach at another Southland school told me, "His teams always play hard, but sloppy." That would be my assessment of his teams at Rice.

He has been replaced by someone whose teams are not as sloppy, but do not appear to me to be playing hard all the time.

So, Rice's last three football coaches would appear to be:

1) a jerk and a creep
2) someone whose teams always played hard but sloppy
3) someone whose teams don't always play hard

None of those are what you want.

I think lots of Bailiff's teams could have, would have won those games. How about the Texas Bowl champs, with Thor/JD/CC? You think they could not have beaten UAB 2006 or ECU 2006 or SMU 2006? I guess we will have to disagree on that one, friend.

Bailiff's problem was not being able to maintain or build on success.

But the topic is not who was the better coach, Bailiff or Toad. If we are going to compare coaches, I want to throw in Hatfield, Neely, and Heisman.

Todd is a sleaze., period. Glad he is gone. He did us a favor when he stabbed us in the back. Could anybody else have taken us to a 7-5 record in 2006? Heck, yeah. lots of them. And a bunch of them would have won the bowl, too.

Tired of beating this dead horse. Any of y'all who want to revere the memory of Todd in any way, go right ahead. The empty pew in the back is mine.

Thought I would check out the hard but sloppy.

Going to the archives, here are the stats on penalties:

year total - yards, avg per game

2006 75-557 42.85

2007 67-524 43.7

2008 64-552 42.46

2009 69-574 47.8

2010 57-461 38.4

(01-10-2022 02:48 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I think lots of Bailiff's teams could have, would have won those games.

I don't.

Quote:How about the Texas Bowl champs, with Thor/JD/CC? You think they could not have beaten UAB 2006 or ECU 2006 or SMU 2006? I guess we will have to disagree on that one, friend.

The 2008 Rice team might have won those games because of superior talent. But the 2006 Rice teams won those games because of superior execution at crunch time, and superior execution was not a feature of Bailiff's teams.

By 2008, JD and CC had two more years of experience (and CC was injured for East Carolina in 2006) and they added Thor. Three guys who were at least marginal NFL guys is a heck of a lot of talent for a G5 school.

(01-10-2022 03:00 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Thought I would check out the hard but sloppy.
Going to the archives, here are the stats on penalties:
year total - yards, avg per game
2006 75-557 5.8-42.9
2007 67-524 5.6-43.7
2008 64-552 4.9-42.4
2009 69-574 5.8-47.8
2010 57-461 4.8-38.4

Added per game penalties to per game penalty yards in your table. Not sure the differences are great enough to establish any trend. Moreover, there are a lot more measures of sloppiness than penalties.

One is the eye test, and Bailiff's teams--even the good ones--never really passed that. Another is the nature of the penalties--how many are for stupid, avoidable errors like delay of game or false starts and how many are for overly aggressive play? Another would be having the wrong number of people on the field, and another for burning otherwise unnecessary timeout calls to avoid one of those errors.

If you don't think Bailiff's teams played sloppy football, you are entitled to your opinion, but I found the games impossible to watch because of the sloppiness.

(01-10-2022 02:48 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I think lots of Bailiff's teams could have, would have won those games. How about the Texas Bowl champs, with Thor/JD/CC? You think they could not have beaten UAB 2006 or ECU 2006 or SMU 2006? I guess we will have to disagree on that one, friend.
Bailiff's problem was not being able to maintain or build on success.
But the topic is not who was the better coach, Bailiff or Toad. If we are going to compare coaches, I want to throw in Hatfield, Neely, and Heisman.
Todd is a sleaze., period. Glad he is gone. He did us a favor when he stabbed us in the back. Could anybody else have taken us to a 7-5 record in 2006? Heck, yeah. lots of them. And a bunch of them would have won the bowl, too.
Tired of beating this dead horse. Any of y'all who want to revere the memory of Todd in any way, go right ahead. The empty pew in the back is mine.

I am not revering the memory of Turd in any way, and quite frankly I resent having my comments mischaracterized in that way. I am at least as happy as you are that he is gone, and am on record many times as saying that. I pretty much think that when he told CDC about the Tulsa offer, probably expecting CDC to match it, he was instead told not to let the door hit him in the ass on the way out, and I for one wholeheartedly applaud that.

I think Turd would have squeezed more out of his talent than Bailiff did, but his personal characteristics as a jerk and a creep would have negatively affected recruiting in ways that would have left him with less talent to work with than Bailiff had. That seems to have been what has happened to him at every dream job stop since Rice, and with good reason.

I am much less certain than you that there are lots of coaches who could have taken the 2006 team to a 7-5 record, or won the bowl game. Remember that basically the same talent went 1-10 the year before, and 3-9 the year after, with the addition of Thor.

I saw some football coach list the requirements to win football games, in order of importance, as:

1-Talent
2-Execution
3-Scheme
4-Attitude/Motivation

I think Bailiff would always attract better talent than Turd, because he is basically a better person, and recruits pick up on that.
I think Turd's teams would have executed much better. As an aside, what I really, really like about RUOwls's approach is the emphasis on execution.
I don't find anything particularly remarkable about either of their schemes, which is particularly unfortunate since my own belief is that Rice requires contrarian schemes in order to succeed.
I think Turd's intense rah-rah approach works for attitude/motivation initially, but I think his act wears out in a hurry. Again, that seems to be what has happened everywhere he has been since leaving Rice.

(01-10-2022 03:42 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-10-2022 03:00 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Thought I would check out the hard but sloppy.
Going to the archives, here are the stats on penalties:
year total - yards, avg per game
2006 75-557 5.8-42.9
2007 67-524 5.6-43.7
2008 64-552 4.9-42.4
2009 69-574 5.8-47.8
2010 57-461 4.8-38.4

Added per game penalties to per game penalty yards in your table. Not sure the differences are great enough to establish any trend. Moreover, there are a lot more measures of sloppiness than penalties.

One is the eye test, and Bailiff's teams--even the good ones--never really passed that. Another is the nature of the penalties--how many are for stupid, avoidable errors like delay of game or false starts and how many are for overly aggressive play? Another would be having the wrong number of people on the field, and another for burning otherwise unnecessary timeout calls to avoid one of those errors.

If you don't think Bailiff's teams played sloppy football, you are entitled to your opinion, but I found the games impossible to watch because of the sloppiness.

I guess if we did a really deep dive, we could get some numbers that you ask for, but numbers have to be interpreted. Then we would probably be back at square one.

here is what my quick dive into the archives showed me - that there was not a lot of difference between the tow coaches on discipline as measured by penalties. Toad had the most penalties, and the second most yards penalized among the five. Maybe Bailiff was undisciplined - Toad was not better, maybe a little worse. 2010 was the best year of the five.

Yeah, I agree any pre-snap penalty is bad, and they should, in a perfect world, be eliminated. But even the pros do them. Even Texas does them. Even (every team in the USA) does them.

I guess I take issue with the thought that if we hadn't had TOAD, in articular, in 2006, we might not have football. We cannot define the road not taken, but I bet there were lots of candidates who could have saved Rice football. We didn't hire them, so we don't know. Seems one guy being pushed back then was a guy named Harbaugh. Wonder where we would be now had we taken him seriously.

I didn't mean to imply you were a Toad-worshipper, but back in 2006, there sure were a lot of them, and his 7-6 record is still revered by some.

I wonder how many Pitt, Tulsa, ASU and Hawaii alumni still think nostalgically of the toad years.

The only numbers that really matter to me are Ws and Ls. How they got there is subject to speculation, but if your record says who you are, as Bill Parcells likes to insist, then the Ws and Ls are all the only numbers that really matter at the end of the day.

In 11 years at Rice, Bailiff was 57-80, averaging roughly 5 wins and 7 losses per season (40-48, averaging roughly 3.5-4.5 in conference). In one year, Turd was 7-5 (7-6 counting the bowl, 6-2 in conference). Those numbers are not subject to much manipulation, and they do tell a story. Moreover, 2006 probably had the toughest schedule of all those years (UCLA, TexasU, Florida State, plus a much better CUSA before the defections) and pretty much the same talent (plus Thor in 2007) went 1-10 and 3-9 in the years before and after. None of us knows what Rice's football record would have been in 2006 (or an any of the Bailiff years, for that matter) with anyone else as head football coach--Nick Saban, Vince Lombardi, Bear Bryant, Jerry Berndt, Knute Rockne, Lou Holtz, or anyone. All we know is who were the coaches and what the actual records were.

Those are immutable facts. It is also at this point pretty much an immutable fact that Turd is a jerk and a creep. Is a 7-6 record worth having a jerk and a creep as a football coach? Not over the long haul. Was it worth one season to prove that Rice could in fact have a winning season and go to a bowl? At that particular time, perhaps so. Could a more honorable coach have succeeded in 2006? Jess certainly did, for many seasons, but we cannot possibly know.

I think Bailiff's teams had more talent, but underachieved because of poor execution, and perhaps a scheme not well suited to the talent that he had. I think Turd's one team overachieved, but over the long haul I think the program woul have regressed as his true personna revealed itself more and more.

I enjoyed watching Rice win 7 football games in 2006, but I was truly not sorry to see Turd go. I was very disappointed in Bailiff's inability to maintain a team at a consistent competitive level, year in and year out. I did think that his teams played hard but were incredibly sloppy. I do not believe that Bloomgren's approach can work at Rice. I question whether his teams are playing hard for him. That's my bottom line on each of Rice's last three head football coaches.

Yep, W's are the "Bottom Line" of football. Agree completely. Everything else is just style points.

I do think that TG was lucky to get to 7 W's. I think 4-5 was closer to what he earned. Of course, to give the devil his due, except for the unlucky broken thumb and an unprepared XP kicker, he would have beaten U-Hou.

JMHO.

I wonder what TG would have done in 2007 had he stayed. He would have had a great DE nicknamed Thor.

(01-10-2022 04:52 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I enjoyed watching Rice win 7 football games in 2006, but I was truly not sorry to see Turd go. I was very disappointed in Bailiff's inability to maintain a team at a consistent competitive level, year in and year out. I did think that his teams played hard but were incredibly sloppy. I do not believe that Bloomgren's approach can work at Rice. I question whether his teams are playing hard for him. That's my bottom line on each of Rice's last three head football coaches.

I also enjoyed watching those 7 wins, traveling 5 hours each way to attend. Was shocked but not sorry at his departure.

I too was disappointed at Bailiff's inability to maintain his peaks or improve on them, but at least we had some peaks.

Bloomgren's approach is judged, as you say, by the W's and L's, and he has been wanting so far. I have little confidence he can break through to even a .500 record next year. But I also have little confidence in his replacement, whoever that may be. I expect another Bloomgren in different clothes.

You and I have seen all the coaches since Neely. Which one(s) would we want back(disregarding age/life)?

For me it would be:

1. Hatfield
2. Goldsmith
3. Bailiff
4. Alborn

(01-10-2022 06:49 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-10-2022 04:52 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I enjoyed watching Rice win 7 football games in 2006, but I was truly not sorry to see Turd go. I was very disappointed in Bailiff's inability to maintain a team at a consistent competitive level, year in and year out. I did think that his teams played hard but were incredibly sloppy. I do not believe that Bloomgren's approach can work at Rice. I question whether his teams are playing hard for him. That's my bottom line on each of Rice's last three head football coaches.

I also enjoyed watching those 7 wins, traveling 5 hours each way to attend. Was shocked but not sorry at his departure.

I too was disappointed at Bailiff's inability to maintain his peaks or improve on them, but at least we had some peaks.

Bloomgren's approach is judged, as you say, by the W's and L's, and he has been wanting so far. I have little confidence he can break through to even a .500 record next year. But I also have little confidence in his replacement, whoever that may be. I expect another Bloomgren in different clothes.

You and I have seen all the coaches since Neely. Which one(s) would we want back(disregarding age/life)?

For me it would be:

1. Hatfield
2. Goldsmith
3. Bailiff
4. Alborn

Clearly the first two. An argument could be made that Fred saved Rice FB (imagine if he had been a disaster after the previous 25 years). I was pretty upset when he left and upbeat with hiring Hat. Until the last couple of years or so, I thought Hat's teams could generally be competitive with anyone. Alborn just fell off the table after a decent year or two. Bailiff just had some absolute awfuls despite some nice memories that you just can't take your mind off-Nichol St, ODU, McGuffie up the middle, timeout after receiving the second half KO because the playcall could not be made, getting blown off the field by UH. Too much huh what was that? 2009. 2007.
And all the more against more and more pathetic opponents.

Bloom-just no words and less interest about the upcoming season than any in my memory going back 50+ years.

For me it would be:
1. Hatfield
2. Goldsmith

While we’re rehashing 2006, I’m going to point out a fun fact about that season that I don’t ever recall being said on here (then, or now). Or if so, only rarely.

It will blow you away once you think about it.

If Rice had won their opener against Houston (in fact we lost by one point 30-31), and all the other games played out as happened, then Rice would have won the division and gone to the CUSA Championship.

But we didn’t, and I blame that rascal HC of ours.

(01-11-2022 10:17 AM)owl at the moon Wrote:  If Rice had won their opener against Houston (in fact we lost by one point 30-31)

That's underselling the collapse. After conceding the first 14 points, we scored the next 30 of the game, but our entire scoring in the second half was just one FG in the third quarter. We gave up the go-ahead PAT with 10 minutes left in the game and not only could we not muster another scoring drive, we only had two drives across midfield at all the entire second half, one of which was only because the UH punt unit turned the ball over at their own 22. That's as frustrating a half of offense as anything under Bloomgren, and I don't say that as a fan of the current HC.

(01-11-2022 10:17 AM)owl at the moon Wrote:  While we’re rehashing 2006, I’m going to point out a fun fact about that season that I don’t ever recall being said on here (then, or now). Or if so, only rarely.

It will blow you away once you think about it.

If Rice had won their opener against Houston (in fact we lost by one point 30-31), and all the other games played out as happened, then Rice would have won the division and gone to the CUSA Championship.

But we didn’t, and I blame that rascal HC of ours.

Yeah, he never should have broken Chase’s thumb. That thumb should have been better prepared.

Graham out in Hawaii:

https://www.espn.com/college-football/st...ng-players

I’m guessing this will be his last head coaching stop.

(01-15-2022 07:55 AM)WIowl Wrote:  Graham out in Hawaii:

https://www.espn.com/college-football/st...ng-players

I’m guessing this will be his last head coaching stop.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-footba...h-reasons/

(01-15-2022 07:55 AM)WIowl Wrote:  Graham out in Hawaii:

https://www.espn.com/college-football/st...ng-players

I’m guessing this will be his last head coaching stop.

He keeps going further west these days for jobs, and unless Taiwan creates a team, it will be hard to keep moving west.