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RiceOwls2019 Online
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Post: #41
RE: Offensive Concerns
(09-09-2021 11:31 AM)Buho00 Wrote:  To his credit, it took Bailiff about 2 games to learn that some things aren't good fits at Rice. After losing to Baylor in his second or 3rd game at Rice, he never went under center again. Not saying that can't work, but Bloomgren has been stubborn the entire time with his offense and with his QB's.

It's not lack of execution. His choices for QB have been poor. He prefers one dimensional QB's in his scheme, like we're the NY Jets of the Ryan era trying to win low scoring games. He hasn't developed any QB - unless you consider Green not fumbling every other snap now QB development. If Green had passed for 300 yards in a game it would be one thing, but he's never lit it up, not once. Meanwhile we have QB's that have won big games, made more explosive plays, been more secure with the football, been more efficient passing, and had the dimension of being able to run but don't get as many opportunities for some reason. I like Green's throwing motion the best, maybe, but not impressed with the arm strength, vision, or accuracy - he's overrated as a passer. He has to go with Luke for an extended period of time or bring back Jovoni to make a bowl game.

Green is always going to look better in practice because the QB doesn't get touched. Mobility doesn't really come into play at all in practice. It sure matters in games though, particularly against good defenses.
09-09-2021 01:50 PM
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waltgreenberg Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Offensive Concerns
(09-09-2021 01:50 PM)RiceOwls2019 Wrote:  
(09-09-2021 11:31 AM)Buho00 Wrote:  To his credit, it took Bailiff about 2 games to learn that some things aren't good fits at Rice. After losing to Baylor in his second or 3rd game at Rice, he never went under center again. Not saying that can't work, but Bloomgren has been stubborn the entire time with his offense and with his QB's.

It's not lack of execution. His choices for QB have been poor. He prefers one dimensional QB's in his scheme, like we're the NY Jets of the Ryan era trying to win low scoring games. He hasn't developed any QB - unless you consider Green not fumbling every other snap now QB development. If Green had passed for 300 yards in a game it would be one thing, but he's never lit it up, not once. Meanwhile we have QB's that have won big games, made more explosive plays, been more secure with the football, been more efficient passing, and had the dimension of being able to run but don't get as many opportunities for some reason. I like Green's throwing motion the best, maybe, but not impressed with the arm strength, vision, or accuracy - he's overrated as a passer. He has to go with Luke for an extended period of time or bring back Jovoni to make a bowl game.

Green is always going to look better in practice because the QB doesn't get touched. Mobility doesn't really come into play at all in practice. It sure matters in games though, particularly against good defenses.

Thank you. I've been saying this for a couple years now. You don't see the fumbles or the interceptions in practice either because the QB is never going to get hit, and he knows it.
09-09-2021 03:02 PM
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Post: #43
Offensive Concerns
(09-08-2021 02:34 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 12:49 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(09-07-2021 06:32 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(09-07-2021 01:57 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  What concerns me is the 'preseason' attitude that I still worry about. I don't know if its still there. I think its clearly not on defense or in the players... but I worry that its in the coaches. Don't show your best plays... it will hurt you in conference?? Really?? Not if you're good at them,. Why not just get more 'best' plays??

I wonder what plays you think we are hiding/saving for later? The fake punt?

I do think of our schedule as a two part season - the "big" guys (first three) and the "little" guys (last nine). But I don't think Bloom or anybody is sacrificing anything against the big guys to save it for the little guys. JMHO.

Now, if we see a whole new playbook for the conference games, then you have a point. But I expect to see the same old playbook all season.

Ibid to Tomball's post....

But I guess I should say it differently.

Paraphrasing Sun Tzu. If equally matched as in the last 9, you do battle. Your plan against theirs... your scheme against theirs. If outmatched as in the first 3 (and just using your words, not trying to debate them) then you cannot win an 11 on 11 game. You have to focus on smaller skirmishes... you have to engage in isolation. Try and find the one player where you have an advantage, or the one area (player intelligence?) where you have an advantage and exploit it. That's where I talk about changing formations or other alignment type plays where you can get the other team out of position to create at least a stalemate from an inferior athletic position. This is very much what Hatfield did. Remember when he started dropping DL into the passing lanes against the run and shoot?? He did this because it created confusion for linemen which allowed other rushers to come free and/or messed up the QB or WR reads as they were predicated on reading the linebacker. The linebacker would blitz which meant the read was you throw to the area he vacated, but then the lineman would drop into that area. Remember against A&M when Bailiff (was it Mensa?) went unbalanced and A&M struggled for a bit?

Bottom line, I guess I expect to see 'more' on offense against the first 3, not less... and if it works against them, it will KILL against CUSA. On Defense, I expect to see essentially the same... because the offenses we will see will be similar, just with 'not quite as good' players.

I don't think Bloom has read Sun Tzu, nor do I think he would be a good military commander.


May I recommend the Mandarin edition ?
09-10-2021 02:50 AM
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Post: #44
RE: Offensive Concerns
(09-09-2021 11:31 AM)Buho00 Wrote:  To his credit, it took Bailiff about 2 games to learn that some things aren't good fits at Rice. After losing to Baylor in his second or 3rd game at Rice, he never went under center again. Not saying that can't work, but Bloomgren has been stubborn the entire time with his offense and with his QB's.

It's not lack of execution. His choices for QB have been poor. He prefers one dimensional QB's in his scheme, like we're the NY Jets of the Ryan era trying to win low scoring games. He hasn't developed any QB - unless you consider Green not fumbling every other snap now QB development. If Green had passed for 300 yards in a game it would be one thing, but he's never lit it up, not once. Meanwhile we have QB's that have won big games, made more explosive plays, been more secure with the football, been more efficient passing, and had the dimension of being able to run but don't get as many opportunities for some reason. I like Green's throwing motion the best, maybe, but not impressed with the arm strength, vision, or accuracy - he's overrated as a passer. He has to go with Luke for an extended period of time or bring back Jovoni to make a bowl game.

Well said, Jr., well said. I can recall Jovoni’s true freshman year, watching him in fall drills and thinking, “This kid is our quarterback of the future. In fact he just may well be our QB of the present!” But push comes to shove, and our coach decides he “doesn’t like his passing mechanics.” Well then why doesn’t he find a QB coach who is a developer of basic, fundamental skills? Send him to a Ray Guy-like summer camp for QBs? SOMETHING! Really going back to the Bailiff era, our quarterbacks have had a strong tendency to regress during their careers. It’s maddening.



Taylor Mac, what say you? Be frank.
09-10-2021 08:36 AM
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Post: #45
RE: Offensive Concerns
I was a Green proponent, thinking he got a bad rap after one (very) poor decision two years ago. But it unfortunately seems to be more of a pattern of than a one-off.

If Luke isn't showing whatever it is the coaches need to see... then can't wish any louder for them to please make the move to the QB's that do have the potential to win games.

I've been a fan of Jovani since his first games. Sure he needs development, but isn't that what coaches are for? We've also got McMahon currently #3 on the depth chart with a good track record, albeit at a lower level.

Edit - tying it back to the original thesis of this thread and furthering what many have pre-echoed before, the sad/frustrating part is that for at least the third year in a row (with this coach - let's forget about prior years) we're asking whoever plays QB to pilot a predictable offense, largely devoid of misdirection, and not at all designed for the actual players we have to implement it.
(This post was last modified: 09-10-2021 11:32 AM by NYNightOwl.)
09-10-2021 11:06 AM
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mrbig Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Offensive Concerns
There has been a lot of justifiable negativity in this thread. But I do want to commend the ~4 playcalls that had the Rice QB rolling out of the pocket. Rice completed a few of them and had pretty decent looks in all of them. If Rice did that 2-3 times as frequently, especially if one of the more mobile QB options (McCaffrey or Johnson) is playing, that would be a big step in the right direction.

I liked that they tried a jet sweep as well, though I remember feeling that the situation the used it wasn’t great (particularly against and SEC defense). Still, adding more frequent pre-snap motion would be another improvement. This always strikes me as the most under-utilized tool to help a college offense identify defensive coverages. Rice should have someone move pre-snap on damn near every play and teach (and trust) our QB to utilize the information learned about how the defense adjusts to the motion.
09-10-2021 11:45 AM
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Post: #47
RE: Offensive Concerns
(09-09-2021 01:16 PM)franklyconfused Wrote:  Something that keeps coming up on our discussion of QBs is an implicit assumption that changing the QB is the only missing piece, that the wins are going to come if only McCaffrey/JoVoni/et al. played instead. I don't see that with this staff. We've complained for years about fitting square pegs into round holes. We've also identified that Bloomgren's system demands a pocket passer, and that he stubbornly doesn't change from his system. He did allow Mack to finally call his spread in November 2019 when the season was out of hand, the only time Bloomgren ever showed that kind of flexibility, and we did win a few games doing it. But how much of our winning was because teams weren't prepared for us to throw the ball 20 times a half? Was Tom Stewart always a great passer, or were defenses still practicing for our I-formation? MTSU and UNT did both shut us out after the half when Bloom insisted on running to kill clock; we only scored more after the half against UTEP because were were trailing going into the break. I think the offense's success in November '19 was more due to fitting our square pegs into round holes that were extremely wide because it was a complete surprise to our opponents. If we go spread this year in October, maybe we win two or three between USM, UTSA, and UAB, but I think teams would have us figured out by Halloween. Is this team that's been recruited and trained to run between the tackles suddenly going to fit well into another system that this coaching staff, hired for teaching and playcalling runs between the tackles, knows how to execute?

I am not an Offensive coordinator but just some thoughts. The mantra of pound the rock, control, win at special teams, and play great defense seem to have the goal of limiting the vulnerability of our defense. Controlling the clock and flipping the field either keeps our defense off the field or gives the opposing team a long field to play for points. Also, keep in mind that we play 22 on defense. The 2 deep isn't really a statement of who starts and thus plays for 50 out of 60 minutes but rather, the two players at that position who share playing time. The 3rd team seems to the be the ones who are more in relief. But I digress.

I think that Bloomgren is convinced that only offense that can protect his defense is the West Coast offense. But John Regan's offense in 2013 (CUSA Title year) seemed to accomplish the same. Rice constantly won the TOP wars. Heck, I was at that 2013 season opener against Texas A&M (Manziel suspended for the first half) and I remember leaving the game, glancing up at the score board and realizing that not only had Rice won the TOP, but Rice gained over 500 yards. And if I recall correctly, Regan's offense was a run first type of offense. If former Owls from the 2013 team are on this board, I am sure that they can provide better perspective, but it seems that there are better schemes to take advantage of our personnel and still protect the defense.
09-10-2021 11:58 AM
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Post: #48
RE: Offensive Concerns
(09-10-2021 11:45 AM)mrbig Wrote:  I liked that they tried a jet sweep as well, though I remember feeling that the situation the used it wasn’t great (particularly against and SEC defense). Still, adding more frequent pre-snap motion would be another improvement. This always strikes me as the most under-utilized tool to help a college offense identify defensive coverages. Rice should have someone move pre-snap on damn near every play and teach (and trust) our QB to utilize the information learned about how the defense adjusts to the motion.

This. been saying it for years. You motion or shift to force the defense to react and to create leverage which mitigates some of the physical or speed differences. If nothing else, it slows them off the line just a hair as they aren't sure if you're starting the play or just shifting. Throw in unusual formations (and I don't mean they have to be crazy, like the one with a center and WR at QB and everyone else off to the side... but just tackle over or the slot covered up by a tight TE or even an OL to seal the edge... or tackle eligible etc.

(09-10-2021 11:58 AM)Pan95 Wrote:  I am not an Offensive coordinator but just some thoughts. The mantra of pound the rock, control, win at special teams, and play great defense seem to have the goal of limiting the vulnerability of our defense. Controlling the clock and flipping the field either keeps our defense off the field or gives the opposing team a long field to play for points. Also, keep in mind that we play 22 on defense. The 2 deep isn't really a statement of who starts and thus plays for 50 out of 60 minutes but rather, the two players at that position who share playing time. The 3rd team seems to the be the ones who are more in relief. But I digress.

I think that Bloomgren is convinced that only offense that can protect his defense is the West Coast offense. But John Regan's offense in 2013 (CUSA Title year) seemed to accomplish the same. Rice constantly won the TOP wars. Heck, I was at that 2013 season opener against Texas A&M (Manziel suspended for the first half) and I remember leaving the game, glancing up at the score board and realizing that not only had Rice won the TOP, but Rice gained over 500 yards. And if I recall correctly, Regan's offense was a run first type of offense. If former Owls from the 2013 team are on this board, I am sure that they can provide better perspective, but it seems that there are better schemes to take advantage of our personnel and still protect the defense.

but in order to pound the rock and control the clock, you have to be able to go deep if they stack the box. We did that in the first half last week... but it costs us on the clock... which makes those 4th and 1 and/or settling for FGs CRITICAL... and you need misdirection and execution if you don't have the power advantage on 4th and 1. Nose to nose jumbo package is 'manly', but its not that effective at Rice vs p5 (or good g5)
09-10-2021 12:21 PM
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mrbig Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Offensive Concerns
I listened to the Rice Owls Insider podcast (the Mike Bloomgren SHow 9-13-21 episode). In it, Bloomgren said that OC Marques Tuiasosopo called the red zone play that resulted in Rice's only TD. Not sure whether that is an indication that Coach Tuiasosopo is the primary playcaller or anything, just an interesting data point. Obviously Bloomgreen has been very clear from day 1 at Rice about the kind of offense he wants to run, so I am sure this isn't "Tuiasosopo's Offense" even if he is the playcaller.
09-14-2021 11:04 AM
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Post: #50
RE: Offensive Concerns
Quote:Mark Berman
@MarkBermanFox26
Mike Bloomgren says Luke McCaffrey (@mccaffrey_luke) will be @RiceFootball
starting quarterback at Texas Saturday night: “It gives our team the best opportunity to be successful..Luke gives us our best chance.”

Here's the interview: https://twitter.com/MarkBermanFox26/stat...2463664135

I, for one, agree...though he's likely going to be under the same duress in Austin as he was against UH. Hopefully, he still gets to start against Texas Southern, when he'll have a much better opportunity to show his stuff.
(This post was last modified: 09-14-2021 12:56 PM by waltgreenberg.)
09-14-2021 12:53 PM
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Ourland Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Offensive Concerns
Mike Bloomgren is literally digging his own grave.
09-14-2021 12:54 PM
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mrbig Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Offensive Concerns
(09-14-2021 12:53 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  
Quote:Mark Berman
@MarkBermanFox26
Mike Bloomgren says Luke McCaffrey (@mccaffrey_luke) will be @RiceFootball
starting quarterback at Texas Saturday night: “It gives our team the best opportunity to be successful..Luke gives us our best chance.”

Here's the interview: https://twitter.com/MarkBermanFox26/stat...2463664135

I, for one, agree...though he's likely going to be under the same duress in Austin as he was against UH. Hopefully, he still gets to start against Texas Southern, when he'll have a much better opportunity to show his stuff.

I agree, I like giving McCaffrey more time. UT is a tough environment, but if Rice's QB is going to be under frequent duress, I prefer his mobility to Green's lack of mobility. Hopefully the coaching staff uses a little more creativity and doesn't feel like they need to pound it between the tackles 75% of the time on 1st down and 50% of the time overall. Get McCaffrey out of the pocket on some options, pitch plays, RPOs, etc. Use a few screens.

As a Saints fan, it has been interesting and fun to watch how Sean Payton's playbook has evolved over the years. In the earlier Brees seasons, the Saints repeatedly took shots downfield and were successful. As Brees lost some arm strength, the play calls changed dramatically (very few deep shots, more mid-range passes and lots of short passes with a high completion %). Sean Payton has also frequently adapted the playbook to different players with unique skill sets at different positions like RB (Reggie Bush, Darren Sproles, Alvin Kamara), TE (Jimmy Graham), or multi-threat players (Taysom Hill). It would be nice to see a Rice offense with similar adaptability!
(This post was last modified: 09-14-2021 04:50 PM by mrbig.)
09-14-2021 02:05 PM
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Post: #53
RE: Offensive Concerns
(09-14-2021 02:05 PM)mrbig Wrote:  Hopefully the coaching staff uses a little more creativity and doesn't feel like they need to pound it between the tackles 75% of the time on 1st down and 50% of the time overall. Get McCaffrey out of the pocket on some options, pitch plays, RPOs, etc. Use a few screens.

That's not hope, that's prayer.
09-14-2021 02:13 PM
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Post: #54
RE: Offensive Concerns
(09-14-2021 02:13 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(09-14-2021 02:05 PM)mrbig Wrote:  Hopefully the coaching staff uses a little more creativity and doesn't feel like they need to pound it between the tackles 75% of the time on 1st down and 50% of the time overall. Get McCaffrey out of the pocket on some options, pitch plays, RPOs, etc. Use a few screens.

That's not hope, that's prayer.

Unfortunately that's NOT the offense that McCaffrey is currently being called upon to run. Therefore, running for his life again at UT I think only risks his injury and more TO's.
09-14-2021 02:26 PM
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Post: #55
RE: Offensive Concerns
(09-14-2021 12:53 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  
Quote:Mark Berman
@MarkBermanFox26
Mike Bloomgren says Luke McCaffrey (@mccaffrey_luke) will be @RiceFootball
starting quarterback at Texas Saturday night: “It gives our team the best opportunity to be successful..Luke gives us our best chance.”

Here's the interview: https://twitter.com/MarkBermanFox26/stat...2463664135

I, for one, agree...though he's likely going to be under the same duress in Austin as he was against UH. Hopefully, he still gets to start against Texas Southern, when he'll have a much better opportunity to show his stuff.

Confirms the "Green was going to get 1 big shot to be starter" theory
09-14-2021 02:53 PM
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Post: #56
RE: Offensive Concerns
McCaffrey is about to get hurt.
09-14-2021 02:57 PM
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Post: #57
RE: Offensive Concerns
My biggest offensive concern is that if we keep doing what we're doing, what quality QB prospect would ever choose to come hand off twice and then run for your life on 3rd and 8.
09-14-2021 03:10 PM
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Post: #58
RE: Offensive Concerns
(09-14-2021 03:10 PM)mebehutchi Wrote:  My biggest offensive concern is that if we keep doing what we're doing, what quality QB prospect would ever choose to come hand off twice and then run for your life on 3rd and 8.

It's the reason no one comes here. Why go somewhere to hand the ball off on every down? Bloomgren needs to let Tua take complete control of this offense. I know that man could do something great with McCaffrey. How about the Read-Option? It's a far less predictable running offense right? Put men in motion and keep the defense honest.

I can't wait for Mike Bloomgren to be gone. He is running a disaster of a program. He's such an idiot. I can see him crying after every game. It doesn't have to be that way.
09-14-2021 04:31 PM
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Post: #59
RE: Offensive Concerns
(09-14-2021 03:10 PM)mebehutchi Wrote:  My biggest offensive concern is that if we keep doing what we're doing, what quality QB prospect would ever choose to come hand off twice and then run for your life on 3rd and 8.

The way I see it, Jovoni is the kind of QB we can recruit. Outstanding super stud in HS (see Ricefootballnet's comments from his Fayetteville trip), and National Merit Scholar to boot, but the P5s probably told him, "Come here and we will make you a safety," and he really wants to play QB. So if that's who we can get, let's build an offense around him--rollouts, options, RPOs, play action passes. A scaled-down version got pretty good results at Marshall and against UAB last year. And McCaffrey can probably run it too. They'd both look pretty good in that old Paul Johnson/Erk Russell/Bob Wagner Georgia Southern/Hawaii offense. Heck, you could probably even run a pretty effective version of Hat's triple with Jovoni and McCaffrey (not suggesting that, WRC, so cool your jets, just observing that it would be possible).

Wiley Green is probably not a good fit for that scheme, but he is probably as close to a pocket passer as we have a chance to get. And right now, I don't think we can win with him. Not as much a knock on him, as just an observation that scheme is not a great fit with what we have in terms of personnel.
(This post was last modified: 09-14-2021 05:00 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
09-14-2021 04:47 PM
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Post: #60
RE: Offensive Concerns
(09-14-2021 04:47 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Heck, you could probably even run a pretty effective version of Hat's triple with Jovoni and McCaffrey (not suggesting that, WRC, so cool your jets, just observing that it would be possible).

I would love to see Rice run a balanced attack that used 2 QBs on the field at all times who can both run the ball. Talk about an all-new playbook that would be difficult to prepare for! Different guy takes snaps on different plays, both guys can throw and run either after the snap or after receiving a handoff or toss. Even a run-based offense out of this formation would be a nightmare to prepare for. I would pay for (online) admission!
09-14-2021 05:50 PM
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