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How does the Alliance help the ACC
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Hallcity Offline
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Post: #21
RE: How does the Alliance help the ACC
(08-24-2021 05:48 PM)domer1978 Wrote:  
(08-24-2021 05:44 PM)Hallcity Wrote:  
(08-24-2021 03:54 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  The press conference led to…nothing much. There is no contract. Everyone can continue with their schedules. There are few specifics.

Maybe by meeting with each other, the commissioners are gaining on the skills that Sankey already has. Revenue wise, the Alliance’s start was underwhelming.

The governance issues are still too nebulous to understand. Too many platitudes, not enough talk on actions nor timeframes.

Let me put you in the place of the conference commissioners and ask which of these options you choose:

1) Announce nothing until you have signed contracts in hand. This means you won’t have anything to announce for many months and may not have the full panoply of games and agreements for several years. Meanwhile, there are inevitable rumors which you will be asked about. You also have to deal with anxious fans asking why you’re doing nothing. How do you answer these questions?

2) Announce a general framework now, acknowledging that many details are left to be decided. This means you have to deal with complaints that there’s no real agreement yet, that what has been announced is meaningless.

Option 3- Announce the group is working toward a comprehensive plan to address issues within College Sports. Do an actual press release, not some Zoom meeting. Let anticipation build for the release instead of dropping a giant turd where most will mock you for your attempt.

Is your option really different from my option 2? It’s essentially the same as my option 2 without a press conference.
08-24-2021 06:53 PM
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georgia_tech_swagger Offline
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Post: #22
RE: How does the Alliance help the ACC
(08-24-2021 04:57 PM)JRsec Wrote:  The alliance is dead. They had everyone's attention and delivered the equivalent of a public shart with national coverage. Not even their press personnel can praise it. Sorry GTS they wiffed!

I think the timeline for success or failure by the alliance is measured in a time span longer than media leak to press conference acknowledgement.
08-24-2021 07:07 PM
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domer1978 Offline
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Post: #23
RE: How does the Alliance help the ACC
(08-24-2021 06:53 PM)Hallcity Wrote:  
(08-24-2021 05:48 PM)domer1978 Wrote:  
(08-24-2021 05:44 PM)Hallcity Wrote:  
(08-24-2021 03:54 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  The press conference led to…nothing much. There is no contract. Everyone can continue with their schedules. There are few specifics.

Maybe by meeting with each other, the commissioners are gaining on the skills that Sankey already has. Revenue wise, the Alliance’s start was underwhelming.

The governance issues are still too nebulous to understand. Too many platitudes, not enough talk on actions nor timeframes.

Let me put you in the place of the conference commissioners and ask which of these options you choose:

1) Announce nothing until you have signed contracts in hand. This means you won’t have anything to announce for many months and may not have the full panoply of games and agreements for several years. Meanwhile, there are inevitable rumors which you will be asked about. You also have to deal with anxious fans asking why you’re doing nothing. How do you answer these questions?

2) Announce a general framework now, acknowledging that many details are left to be decided. This means you have to deal with complaints that there’s no real agreement yet, that what has been announced is meaningless.

Option 3- Announce the group is working toward a comprehensive plan to address issues within College Sports. Do an actual press release, not some Zoom meeting. Let anticipation build for the release instead of dropping a giant turd where most will mock you for your attempt.

Is your option really different from my option 2? It’s essentially the same as my option 2 without a press conference.

The press conference was awful. So that is a huge difference.
08-24-2021 07:22 PM
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Wahoowa84 Offline
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Post: #24
RE: How does the Alliance help the ACC
(08-24-2021 05:44 PM)Hallcity Wrote:  
(08-24-2021 03:54 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  The press conference led to…nothing much. There is no contract. Everyone can continue with their schedules. There are few specifics.

Maybe by meeting with each other, the commissioners are gaining on the skills that Sankey already has. Revenue wise, the Alliance’s start was underwhelming.

The governance issues are still too nebulous to understand. Too many platitudes, not enough talk on actions nor timeframes.

Let me put you in the place of the conference commissioners and ask which of these options you choose:

1) Announce nothing until you have signed contracts in hand. This means you won’t have anything to announce for many months and may not have the full panoply of games and agreements for several years. Meanwhile, there are inevitable rumors which you will be asked about. You also have to deal with anxious fans asking why you’re doing nothing. How do you answer these questions?

2) Announce a general framework now, acknowledging that many details are left to be decided. This means you have to deal with complaints that there’s no real agreement yet, that what has been announced is meaningless.

If there is no agreement on specific actions, then don’t call it an Alliance. An Alliance is really when parties work to achieve common goals based on planned actions. What is occurring now are preliminary working discussions.

The CFP committee worked for several years before they presented their 12 team proposal to other commissioners.

They’re marketing an Alliance with vague objectives. The approach is backwards.
08-24-2021 07:49 PM
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ren.hoek Offline
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Post: #25
RE: How does the Alliance help the ACC
(08-24-2021 07:07 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(08-24-2021 04:57 PM)JRsec Wrote:  The alliance is dead. They had everyone's attention and delivered the equivalent of a public shart with national coverage. Not even their press personnel can praise it. Sorry GTS they wiffed!

I think the timeline for success or failure by the alliance is measured in a time span longer than media leak to press conference acknowledgement.

Concur. Way too early to make any broad, sweeping judgement
08-24-2021 07:53 PM
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CardinalJim Offline
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Post: #26
RE: How does the Alliance help the ACC
I don’t believe you can judge how affective this Alliance will be until after the September 28 CFP meeting. There is absolutely zero reason for anyone in The PAC, Big Ten or ACC to show their cards. You don’t tell those you are negotiating against what your plan is a month before you set down across the table from them.

Some of you have never been in a contract negotiation and it shows

Now if that meeting comes and goes next month without some major changes to the 12 team proposal. Then I will agree The Alliance is much to do about nothing. I will withhold judgment until then.
08-24-2021 08:13 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #27
RE: How does the Alliance help the ACC
(08-24-2021 08:13 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  I don’t believe you can judge how affective this Alliance will be until after the September 28 CFP meeting. There is absolutely zero reason for anyone in The PAC, Big Ten or ACC to show their cards. You don’t tell those you are negotiating against what your plan is a month before you set down across the table from them.

Some of you have never been in a contract negotiation and it shows

Now if that meeting comes and goes next month without some major changes to the 12 team proposal. Then I will agree The Alliance is much to do about nothing. I will withhold judgment until then.

That's the point Jim! I have been at the table many times. What you don't do is talk to the public period before that first meeting. Why? Because you want the public to hear your case after you've made it and surprised your opposition so that your press release embarrasses them and strengthens your bargaining position and paints the strength of your position indelibly in their minds.

Now the power of the first impression is lost. And for what? 7 points none of which the public finds salient. The first five are nothing but PC talking points which most are sick of hearing even if they support them. Then a "let's reshape the NCAA" which sounds remarkably like "let's continue to support the NCAA and amateurism" followed "we will pursue legislative measures" which simply means use the House to bypass the SCOTUS ruling on uncapped NIL and preclude their ruling to come on capped stipends.

Those 2 points released publicly before detailing them gives the opposition plenty of ammunition to prepare public opinion with prior to the meeting. It's called being stupid!

The public is only interested in point 8 which on the surface elicits the most sympathy because of appearances, not because of fact.

When the alliance is tagged as seeking to cap NIL revenues and keep stipends capped it's going to be a powerful public tool against them and the schools that back it. House members are going to hide from that issue.

So it was a haphazard presser in which only 1 point needed to be made, #8, and in which the NCAA should not have been mentioned, let alone using legislation to strengthen their amateur position. And having the first 5 points as a political service announcement alienating 50% of the population is simply obtuse and counter productive.

If they had put any thought or organization behind this, or had an ounce of self awareness before they spoke, I'd say they had a chance on their one issue if well played and frankly 1 or 2 issues is all the public can handle before tuning out.

They lost the public's attention, the press's patience, and any chance of making their positional look reasonable today.

That's as bad as a presser that didn't need to happen can get.

So you guys are entitled to your opinion, but as one who has been at the table in a board room many times corporately and many times in non profit matters, this event wreaked.
08-24-2021 08:38 PM
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Statefan Offline
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Post: #28
RE: How does the Alliance help the ACC
I've seen worse and worse yet, I have had to be a part of worse. Cleaning up after morons have spoken is tough work.

I took it as a pat on the head to about 35 faculty senates and about 25 booster clubs. When I see Nebraska and UCLA return games owed to NC State from the 1950's I might believe something. I am not holding my breath.

This was targeted toward people at UNC, Penn State, Ohio State, USC, Oregon, Washington, and Iowa.

There are only a handful of schools that could move from one bloc to the other. None of the true public ivies can make that move in regards to football. In this sense Cal, Virginia, Michigan, and UCLA are almost stuck in the deeper academic ivory tower fantasy world.
(This post was last modified: 08-24-2021 09:13 PM by Statefan.)
08-24-2021 09:05 PM
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Statefan Offline
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Post: #29
RE: How does the Alliance help the ACC
When conferences are respresented as a conference outliers in your conference are papered over.

The reality is that football at all cost schools are the plurality at the P-5 level.

All Cost 28:
Bama, Auburn, Arkansans, Tenn, KY, Ole Miss, MSU, FSU, SC, Clemson, Arizona State, Mizzou, Nebraska, MSU, VT, UGa, Louisville, TAMU, OU, Florida, Iowa, Baylor, TT, Texas, Oak State, KSU, TCU, West Va
Lean All Cost: 9
Ohio State, Penn State, Indiana, UNC, Notre Dame, Oregon, Washington State, USC, KSU

Lean Toward Bridled or Controlled Football under Academia: 10
Syracuse, MD, NC State, Pitt, Miami, Oregon State, ISU, Wisconsin, GT, Arizona
Solid to Old or Bridled Control: 16
Michigan, MN, Illinois, NW, Purdue, Duke, WF, UVa, BC, Rutgers, Cal, UCLA, Stanford, Washington, Colorado, Vandy,

I am missing a few but All Cost and leaners number 37 while the old school numbers about 26.

There are 19 "leaners".

This mirrors the larger cultural split in today's society.
(This post was last modified: 08-24-2021 09:48 PM by Statefan.)
08-24-2021 09:46 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #30
RE: How does the Alliance help the ACC
(08-24-2021 05:48 PM)domer1978 Wrote:  
(08-24-2021 05:44 PM)Hallcity Wrote:  
(08-24-2021 03:54 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  The press conference led to…nothing much. There is no contract. Everyone can continue with their schedules. There are few specifics.

Maybe by meeting with each other, the commissioners are gaining on the skills that Sankey already has. Revenue wise, the Alliance’s start was underwhelming.

The governance issues are still too nebulous to understand. Too many platitudes, not enough talk on actions nor timeframes.

Let me put you in the place of the conference commissioners and ask which of these options you choose:

1) Announce nothing until you have signed contracts in hand. This means you won’t have anything to announce for many months and may not have the full panoply of games and agreements for several years. Meanwhile, there are inevitable rumors which you will be asked about. You also have to deal with anxious fans asking why you’re doing nothing. How do you answer these questions?

2) Announce a general framework now, acknowledging that many details are left to be decided. This means you have to deal with complaints that there’s no real agreement yet, that what has been announced is meaningless.

Option 3- Announce the group is working toward a comprehensive plan to address issues within College Sports. Do an actual press release, not some Zoom meeting. Let anticipation build for the release instead of dropping a giant turd where most will mock you for your attempt.

Sure, we’ll get behind Option 3 as soon as Notre Dame joins the football conference 04-cheers
08-24-2021 09:47 PM
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Gitanole Offline
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Post: #31
RE: How does the Alliance help the ACC
(08-24-2021 05:48 PM)domer1978 Wrote:  Option 3- Announce the group is working toward a comprehensive plan to address issues within College Sports. Do an actual press release, not some Zoom meeting.

As it happens, an actual press release was published, and the 'Zoom meeting' was an actual press conference.
08-24-2021 11:52 PM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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RE: How does the Alliance help the ACC

08-25-2021 06:46 AM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #33
RE: How does the Alliance help the ACC
Getting back to the question posed in the OP, I've been struggling to find an answer that doesn't make the ACC come across as Machiavellian. Not that this is a bad thing, of course. It's a lot better than being a babe in the woods.

The three conferences have said they agreed not to poach each other's members (because stability is so important to them). Well, the PAC wasn't likely to do any east coast poaching, so I guess we're talking only about the B1G. And there is, after all this GoR thing and steep exit fees. So that can't be the motivation.

While no poaching each other was clearly articulated, there didn't seem to be a commitment not to poach the Big 12 or the AAC. That's despite their obligatory words of support for maintaining a healthy Big 12 (because that's good for college football).

Then there's the prospect of major changes in NCAA governance and CFP structure in the near future. Are the ACC's interests in those things better aligned with the B1G and PAC than with the SEC? And will the ACC's stance on that help them secure more cash in their look-in period?

On the surface, it looks like a risky strategy for the ACC to take sides against the SEC and ESPN. The Mouse would like to have the opportunity to make an offer on the proposed CFP12 without the discomfort of having the bidding thrown open to all comers. They (and the SEC) both knew the move by UT and OU was going to happen when they gave their input to the exploratory committee that recommended it. So, they aren't likely to have second thoughts about it. Is the Alliance likely to propose an alternative (like a CFP8) that would limit the number of SEC teams participating?

Is it possible the ACC is only in this Alliance to find out what they are up to? Could they change sides at a strategically critical part of the process? Right now, there's no contract binding the partners (or co-conspirators if you prefer) to any specific negotiating position.

What does the ACC need that the B1G doesn't? More revenue to reduce the gap between them and both the B1G and the SEC. A commitment to more OOC games against the B1G and PAC isn't going to be much help there, as they already are committed to nine P5 OOC games a year against the SEC and Notre Dame. So what might ESPN be willing to pay enough for to make the look-in worthwhile for the ACC?

Maybe participating in Alliance talks is a bargaining chip. Maybe it's saying (privately, of course) that "we will support you and the SEC if the price is right". Maybe that we'll even provide a home for a couple of B12 members (like OK State and TCU) to help you further undermine the stability of that league so you can get their content as cheaply as you got the AAC's while doing your new darlings OU and UT a favor).

We'll find out which side the ACC is really on in the next couple of months when the details of all these potential changes start to get fleshed out.
08-25-2021 10:39 AM
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Wahoowa84 Offline
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Post: #34
RE: How does the Alliance help the ACC
(08-25-2021 10:39 AM)ken d Wrote:  Getting back to the question posed in the OP, I've been struggling to find an answer that doesn't make the ACC come across as Machiavellian. Not that this is a bad thing, of course. It's a lot better than being a babe in the woods.

The three conferences have said they agreed not to poach each other's members (because stability is so important to them). Well, the PAC wasn't likely to do any east coast poaching, so I guess we're talking only about the B1G. And there is, after all this GoR thing and steep exit fees. So that can't be the motivation.

While no poaching each other was clearly articulated, there didn't seem to be a commitment not to poach the Big 12 or the AAC. That's despite their obligatory words of support for maintaining a healthy Big 12 (because that's good for college football).

Then there's the prospect of major changes in NCAA governance and CFP structure in the near future. Are the ACC's interests in those things better aligned with the B1G and PAC than with the SEC? And will the ACC's stance on that help them secure more cash in their look-in period?

On the surface, it looks like a risky strategy for the ACC to take sides against the SEC and ESPN. The Mouse would like to have the opportunity to make an offer on the proposed CFP12 without the discomfort of having the bidding thrown open to all comers. They (and the SEC) both knew the move by UT and OU was going to happen when they gave their input to the exploratory committee that recommended it. So, they aren't likely to have second thoughts about it. Is the Alliance likely to propose an alternative (like a CFP8) that would limit the number of SEC teams participating?

Is it possible the ACC is only in this Alliance to find out what they are up to? Could they change sides at a strategically critical part of the process? Right now, there's no contract binding the partners (or co-conspirators if you prefer) to any specific negotiating position.

What does the ACC need that the B1G doesn't? More revenue to reduce the gap between them and both the B1G and the SEC. A commitment to more OOC games against the B1G and PAC isn't going to be much help there, as they already are committed to nine P5 OOC games a year against the SEC and Notre Dame. So what might ESPN be willing to pay enough for to make the look-in worthwhile for the ACC?

Maybe participating in Alliance talks is a bargaining chip. Maybe it's saying (privately, of course) that "we will support you and the SEC if the price is right". Maybe that we'll even provide a home for a couple of B12 members (like OK State and TCU) to help you further undermine the stability of that league so you can get their content as cheaply as you got the AAC's while doing your new darlings OU and UT a favor).

We'll find out which side the ACC is really on in the next couple of months when the details of all these potential changes start to get fleshed out.

You are over-thinking the situation. The ACC doesn't need to be Machiavellian, there are serious philosophical and strategic reasons for having these discussions.

The bold moves to expand the SEC with UT and OU and propose a 12 team CFP, as well as NIL/player compensation and NCAA governance, are all foundational changes that these rookie commissioners need to master. If you take the recent Sankey/UT/ESPN approach to their logical end-games (as JR keeps suggesting), then collegiate football could be efficiently transformed by continually aggregating brands. There is no doubt that Michigan, Florida State, USC, Ohio State, Clemson, Penn State, and some others could successfully add value in a top tier conference...but the schools and commissioners may have honest concerns about this potential development.

Agree that the ACC is probably the entity with the most at risk in this Alliance. At a high-level, the SEC is its natural partner in athletics; and ESPN is its exclusive media partner. Nevertheless, business sometimes requires entities to make complex strategic decisions. The SEC contract bowl was with the B12; financial issues forced the SEC to cancel the traditional in-state rivalry games with the ACC; and the ESPN deal is increasingly resembling that of a surrogate than a partner. I'm happy that the ACC isn't a wall-flower or lap-dog at this point of time. Jim Phillips will lose a lot of authority if he allows the Alliance to become an anti-SEC or anti-ESPN force. He needs to ensure that the Alliance is providing a positive vision for college athletics.
08-25-2021 12:08 PM
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Post: #35
RE: How does the Alliance help the ACC
(08-25-2021 12:08 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  Jim Phillips will lose a lot of authority if he allows the Alliance to become an anti-SEC or anti-ESPN force. He needs to ensure that the Alliance is providing a positive vision for college athletics.

That is his most effective leverage to get cash from ESPN and I hope he at least makes ESPN afraid of it.
08-25-2021 12:23 PM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #36
RE: How does the Alliance help the ACC
(08-25-2021 12:23 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(08-25-2021 12:08 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  Jim Phillips will lose a lot of authority if he allows the Alliance to become an anti-SEC or anti-ESPN force. He needs to ensure that the Alliance is providing a positive vision for college athletics.

That is his most effective leverage to get cash from ESPN and I hope he at least makes ESPN afraid of it.

But that would be a bluff, and both ESPN and the SEC know it. To be effective, your opponent has to believe there's a good chance that you are NOT bluffing.
08-26-2021 10:21 AM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #37
RE: How does the Alliance help the ACC
In the four years from 2021-25, the ACC has scheduled 99 games against opponents either in the P5 or in the case of BYU and three AAC teams with a decent chance of joining a P5 Big 12 by 2015 (Cincinnati, UCF and USF). There could be more, as several teams aren't yet fully scheduled.

By conference, that breaks down to:

SEC........38
B1G........20
ND..........19
AAC/BYU..13
B12..........8
PAC..........1

Frankly, I don't see this Alliance changing that very much.

Conspicuous by their absence on this list are two teams the ACC should be playing, IMO -- Penn State and Auburn.
08-26-2021 10:31 AM
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Hallcity Offline
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Post: #38
RE: How does the Alliance help the ACC
(08-26-2021 10:21 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(08-25-2021 12:23 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(08-25-2021 12:08 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  Jim Phillips will lose a lot of authority if he allows the Alliance to become an anti-SEC or anti-ESPN force. He needs to ensure that the Alliance is providing a positive vision for college athletics.

That is his most effective leverage to get cash from ESPN and I hope he at least makes ESPN afraid of it.

But that would be a bluff, and both ESPN and the SEC know it. To be effective, your opponent has to believe there's a good chance that you are NOT bluffing.

Why is it a bluff? There are many things the ACC can and probably will do, such as:
Schedule a lot of neutral site games and sell them to Fox
Refuse to agree to an expansion of the college football playoffs without a cap on the number of teams that can come from one conference
Tell the SEC and ESPN that the three conferences will withdraw from the existing playoffs altogether in favor of their own playoffs unless the SEC agrees to limits that preserve the “collegiate model.”
08-26-2021 10:39 AM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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Post: #39
RE: How does the Alliance help the ACC
(08-26-2021 10:31 AM)ken d Wrote:  In the four years from 2021-25, the ACC has scheduled 99 games against opponents either in the P5 or in the case of BYU and three AAC teams with a decent chance of joining a P5 Big 12 by 2015 (Cincinnati, UCF and USF). There could be more, as several teams aren't yet fully scheduled.

By conference, that breaks down to:

SEC........38
B1G........20
ND..........19
AAC/BYU..13
B12..........8
PAC..........1

Frankly, I don't see this Alliance changing that very much.

Conspicuous by their absence on this list are two teams the ACC should be playing, IMO -- Penn State and Auburn.

To the extent that it brings Big Ten teams to ACC stadiums, it's a good thing.
Virginia Tech has lost out on visits from Penn State (2020), Michigan (cancelled), and Wisconsin (postponed)
08-26-2021 10:39 AM
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Wahoowa84 Offline
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Post: #40
RE: How does the Alliance help the ACC
(08-26-2021 10:21 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(08-25-2021 12:23 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(08-25-2021 12:08 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  Jim Phillips will lose a lot of authority if he allows the Alliance to become an anti-SEC or anti-ESPN force. He needs to ensure that the Alliance is providing a positive vision for college athletics.

That is his most effective leverage to get cash from ESPN and I hope he at least makes ESPN afraid of it.

But that would be a bluff, and both ESPN and the SEC know it. To be effective, your opponent has to believe there's a good chance that you are NOT bluffing.

I really don't believe that pushing back on the proposed CFP at 12 teams would be a bluff. There are good reasons for the ACC to oppose the proposal...

1) Media rights won't be determined via open competition. ESPN has exclusivity. In the future, ESPN's success will be closely tied to the success and promotion of SEC football. The experiences of both Kliavkoff (@ MLB) and Warren (@ NFL) are to not do these closed-sourced deals. Phillips is finding out the hard way that being dependent on ESPN is not necessarily an economically healthy approach.
2) Twelve teams is a radical expansion in the format of the playoffs, yet it's hard to decipher how student-athletes will benefit from this change. The proposal is really about revenue maximization and the welfare of conferences. No doubt that all the conferences need / want more revenue and the SEC is best positioned to exploit this change. Gradually expanding the playoffs is probably a more prudent decision.

It's possible that the 12 team playoffs occurs, but I hope that Phillips...at a minimum...is doing his due diligence till the very end. Regardless of the decision, the ACC will lose leverage with ESPN the minute that Phillips announces his decision.
08-26-2021 11:02 AM
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