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Multi-bid hoops conference
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JSchmack Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Multi-bid hoops conference
(08-17-2021 02:44 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  The Big Sky is somewhat penalized (monetarily) by never having a champ bad enough to make the OR/First Four but not good enough perception wise to get a decent seed (usually 14/15),

It's also a distance thing. The Big West/Big Sky/WAC champs don't usually get sent to the First Four unless they're below .500 because they're so far from Dayton and have to get there... and THEN if they win... they try and put the First Four teams in regions close by so they can get to the next site after playing Tuesday/Wednesday to play two days later...

You're not going to send someone from Vegas or Seattle to Dayton, then BACK to San Diego or Boise for the First Round. That's just silly. The only time they really do that is when someone unexpected wins, like 13-19 Cal Poly that one time. Or UC Davis.

There's plenty of teams in the East to send to Dayton instead.
08-17-2021 03:43 PM
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dbackjon Online
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Post: #22
RE: Multi-bid hoops conference
(08-17-2021 03:43 PM)JSchmack Wrote:  
(08-17-2021 02:44 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  The Big Sky is somewhat penalized (monetarily) by never having a champ bad enough to make the OR/First Four but not good enough perception wise to get a decent seed (usually 14/15),

It's also a distance thing. The Big West/Big Sky/WAC champs don't usually get sent to the First Four unless they're below .500 because they're so far from Dayton and have to get there... and THEN if they win... they try and put the First Four teams in regions close by so they can get to the next site after playing Tuesday/Wednesday to play two days later...

You're not going to send someone from Vegas or Seattle to Dayton, then BACK to San Diego or Boise for the First Round. That's just silly. The only time they really do that is when someone unexpected wins, like 13-19 Cal Poly that one time. Or UC Davis.

There's plenty of teams in the East to send to Dayton instead.
Valid Point

I need to go back and look at how many of those conferences had a 16 non-play in seed and how they compare to the play-in 16s
08-17-2021 04:15 PM
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OscarWildeCat Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Multi-bid hoops conference
(08-16-2021 10:00 PM)JSchmack Wrote:  
(08-16-2021 04:55 PM)PicksUp Wrote:  A-Sun had multiple bids 27 years ago

Lipscomb got hosed in 2019.

Yup.

Lipscomb demonstrated how good they were that year by their stellar performance in the NIT.
08-18-2021 05:22 AM
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goodknightfl Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Multi-bid hoops conference
(08-16-2021 05:22 PM)PicksUp Wrote:  
(08-16-2021 05:09 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(08-16-2021 05:00 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  TY PicksUp!

Here’s my follow up: if you demoted the bottom 8 to D II, could you reduce the Madness to 48 teams (if you give autobide to RS champs)

Yuck! Why would we want to do that?

I'll go on for days about what we need for the college football postseason, but the NCAA Tournament is perfect the way it is.

Not really. It stinks that some teams that got an auto-bid have to play again to get into the field of 64. Thats pathetic. Make the bubble teams play each other.

I do agree on the bubble teams.
08-18-2021 06:54 AM
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JSchmack Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Multi-bid hoops conference
(08-18-2021 05:22 AM)OscarWildeCat Wrote:  Yup.

Lipscomb demonstrated how good they were that year by their stellar performance in the NIT.

I have no idea what Lipscomb did in the NIT, so I don't know if this is serious or sarcastic.

But either way, what someone does in a post-season tournament has zero correlation to the debate of whether they deserved inclusion or what their seed was.

Sure, someone like Loyola, George Mason, or VCU making a deep NCAA run proves they can hang with NCAA teams and therefore deserved a bid when THAT'S the knock on them.

But plenty of teams who DIDN'T deserve a bid but got one anyway and made a deep run on the "house money" principle. Those are usually BCS teams ranked in preseason who had a terrible regular season but still got in anyway (the early 2000s UNC team that was 16-14 on Selection Sunday and made the Final Four, or the last Syracuse Final Four team immediately come to mind).

But sucking in the NIT doesn't mean you didn't belong in the NCAA Tournament. And winning the NIT doesn't mean you belonged in the NCAA Tournament. For the most part all the teams of the top 100 are "Good enough" to actually MAKE an NCAA Tournament, it's a matter of if they PERFORMED well enough against their schedule to get in or not.

Lipscomb deserved a bid that year. I can't tell you who should have been left out, but I guarantee you I could easily find 4 P5 schools who were mediocre, had a dozen chances to beat good teams, failed to do so more than 3-4 times and didn't deserve a bid.
08-18-2021 08:16 PM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Multi-bid hoops conference
(08-18-2021 08:16 PM)JSchmack Wrote:  ... Lipscomb deserved a bid that year. I can't tell you who should have been left out, but I guarantee you I could easily find 4 P5 schools who were mediocre, had a dozen chances to beat good teams, failed to do so more than 3-4 times and didn't deserve a bid.

Yeah, the thing about a number of "good losses" as a data point is you never know whether it's just a team that can't maintain intensity and would have had a similar number of "bad losses" on a weaker schedule.
08-18-2021 09:26 PM
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JSchmack Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Multi-bid hoops conference
(08-18-2021 09:26 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(08-18-2021 08:16 PM)JSchmack Wrote:  ... Lipscomb deserved a bid that year. I can't tell you who should have been left out, but I guarantee you I could easily find 4 P5 schools who were mediocre, had a dozen chances to beat good teams, failed to do so more than 3-4 times and didn't deserve a bid.

Yeah, the thing about a number of "good losses" as a data point is you never know whether it's just a team that can't maintain intensity and would have had a similar number of "bad losses" on a weaker schedule.

The concept of good losses and bad losses is totally jacked up.

It's not based on any baseline of reality in terms of "how easy/hard" it is to go undefeated vs bad teams.

If you look at the win percentage of the top 68 teams in the NET vs Q4 teams, it's like 93%. But if you look at ROAD games vs bottom half of Division I, it's like 78%. What the NET did, is take the "bad losses" by BCS teams, which are almost exclusively road games and make them Q3, while making 25 of the games teams in 1 or 2 bid max range play all Q4. Going 21-3 vs bad teams is the same as going 7-1; which is what most BCS bubble teams do.

But that's not viewed as "equal," it's viewed like "Three bad losses? You're toast! And 20-12, with 12 losses in the top 125? You're fine!" You'd see a lot less BCS teams getting in and a lot more at-larges to the other conferences.
08-18-2021 10:10 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Multi-bid hoops conference
(08-17-2021 03:29 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  My main problem is that I think conference tournaments are a joke where the #5 seed manages to win an auto-bid despite a mediocre season. The auto-bid should go to the regular season champ. The Ivy League had the right idea. For about 2/3s of the conferences, the regular season is meaningless. Might as well just play the conference tourney and decide who's going to the NCAA T, because the rest are staying home regardless of their regular reason.

A lot of small conferences earn more revenue from selling ESPN their tournament championship than from the broadcast rights for the entire league for the entire season. The Tournaments are not going away.

Besides it's often a good chance to have all the CEOs and ADs in one spot for an annual meeting.
08-18-2021 10:30 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Multi-bid hoops conference
Before you had NET, with RPI, it seemed like a lot of extra emphasis (since the metric did factor these) was on SOS and NC-SOS, and that somehow put programs into certain perspectives, added with road and neutral game performance. But, actually who was conquered or played ultimately defined you, or so it felt. And it’s why you could have non-major teams with RPI’s as high as in the 20’s and low 30’s get snubbed, but majors in the 60’s and maybe 70’s getting in.

NET made it worse. Too much on the SOS (and other weird metric factors, such as Colgate’s case) that you can really see bias toward major conference programs. How you can have sub-.500 teams in the top 40 or 50; comfortably in a tournament if the wins and losses maybe switched? Bad, buggy metric.

And that’s the 2019 Lipscomb story. Placed into perspective by who they beat, who they didn’t, and a final slap in the face with where they played conference-wise. Definitely looked like they belonged, and glad they made some sort of statement in the NIT, for whatever that near-irrelevant thing is worth, but, it was clear they didn’t get the respect they deserved. Probably pegged too close to TCU, who they beat, but also didn’t make the tournament. I only wish that Lipscomb won the AQ to see how the committee seeded them. Probably a 13, but maybe a 12?
(This post was last modified: 08-19-2021 05:52 AM by The Cutter of Bish.)
08-19-2021 04:50 AM
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