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Schools should be paid Independent of Conference
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jgkojak Offline
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Post: #1
Schools should be paid Independent of Conference
The big issue in realignment is the conferences have inserted themselves as middle men between the big money TV rights and the schools.

What if every team was paid directly and contracted directly with ESPN/FOX/whoever for their actual value - much like Notre Dame and BYU have negotiated.

Seems like the Texas, Alabama, Ohio State teams are letting millions of $$ they are essentially earning go to Northwestern and Wake Forest, etc. who in no way represent the same value to their conference.

I'm Oklahoma State, I negotiate a rate based on who I play in my conf season, plus for my OOC games. Iowa State, Baylor, etc. the same.

Seems like this would be a way forward for the B12 - instead of inserting themselves as the middle man - pull together a strong 14-16 team slate, let every school negotiate their own path - KU may bring in more, KSU less...
08-11-2021 10:56 PM
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herdfan129 Offline
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RE: Schools should be paid Independent of Conference
I would love to see this happen.
08-11-2021 11:02 PM
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Renandpat Offline
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RE: Schools should be paid Independent of Conference
Ohio State, Michigan, Penn State and other big stadium schools openly and readily share the ticket gate percentage of both football and basketball to other members because that's what they do as a sports conference and as an academic alliance for research and lobbying.

But unless you are loved/hated like say Floyd Mayweather,Jr., a lesser school possesses little value to negotiate anything for their football schedule. Those Big XII schools don't have such pull and never will, but for KU crooked basketball
08-11-2021 11:39 PM
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CardinalJim Offline
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RE: Schools should be paid Independent of Conference
I like the “eat what you kill” approach to compensation but don’t see the necessity of a conference in that structure. Maybe we have come full circle and independence is the future. The next few years are going to be interesting.
08-12-2021 05:04 AM
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DawgNBama Online
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RE: Schools should be paid Independent of Conference
(08-12-2021 05:04 AM)CardinalJim Wrote:  I like the “eat what you kill” approach to compensation but don’t see the necessity of a conference in that structure. Maybe we have come full circle and independence is the future. The next few years are going to be interesting.

Basically, the conference would provide the referees, handle any disciplinary actions, and do in-conference scheduling.

(08-11-2021 11:39 PM)Renandpat Wrote:  Ohio State, Michigan, Penn State and other big stadium schools openly and readily share the ticket gate percentage of both football and basketball to other members because that's what they do as a sports conference and as an academic alliance for research and lobbying.

I like the concept of conferences being academic alliances, and I believe that is going to be a part of the future of conferences as well. If I'm not mistaken, the Ivy League does something similar, although I could be wrong.
(This post was last modified: 08-12-2021 06:05 AM by DawgNBama.)
08-12-2021 05:57 AM
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quo vadis Online
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RE: Schools should be paid Independent of Conference
(08-11-2021 10:56 PM)jgkojak Wrote:  The big issue in realignment is the conferences have inserted themselves as middle men between the big money TV rights and the schools.

What if every team was paid directly and contracted directly with ESPN/FOX/whoever for their actual value - much like Notre Dame and BYU have negotiated.

Well, I think the main reason we don't see the biggest brands bolting for independence is because of Notre Dame.

Look at Notre Dame - even the B1G, which is making $60 million a year in distributions, is eager to give Notre Dame a full share to be a member. Would love to have them as a member.

But on their own, Notre Dame probably isn't making half of what the B1G would give them. All the reports we have suggest Notre Dame is making about $25 million from their media deal, and their other "distributions" that a conference would give them, such as CFP and their ACC share of NCAA and bowl money, probably doesn't add up to more than $7m or so on top of that. So ND is probably making about $30m in the equivalent of "conference distributions", whereas Purdue and Indiana are making almost twice that.

Notre Dame, rather than raking in *more* than Ohio State and Michigan for not being "saddled" with lesser-value conference mates, makes a whole lot *less* than they do.

So Notre Dame suggests that even for the big brands, there is a synergistic effect to being in a conference with lesser brands that trumps independence, at least in terms of money.

Thus, it's no surprise that when TX and OU decided to shed their lower-value conference mates, they did so to .... join another conference, not go independent.

Plus, beyond that, most schools like being in conferences, as that provides scheduling stability and a relationship with longtime rivals that is valued by their fans.
(This post was last modified: 08-12-2021 08:23 AM by quo vadis.)
08-12-2021 06:05 AM
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DawgNBama Online
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RE: Schools should be paid Independent of Conference
(08-11-2021 01:17 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(08-11-2021 12:48 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  
(08-11-2021 11:54 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(08-11-2021 11:49 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(08-11-2021 11:38 AM)YNot Wrote:  I would bet the other way. The GOR is a contract that pledges the school's media rights to the conference for a number of years. The legal way to handcuff Texas and Oklahoma would be to obtain an injunction for specific performance; however, courts don't easily grant injunctions for specific performance, especially when the damages - or economic harm to the conference - are relatively simple and straight forward to calculate.

I'm not even sure that would work, so long as the Big 12's media partners are paying the Big 12 the full amount they otherwise would get if TX and OU were still in the conference.

And that would depend on a settlement between TX/OU and FOX, which might just mean FOX owning the same number of TX and OU home games in the SEC as they would get had they remained in the Big 12. That would seemingly make FOX whole, such that they would not need to seek a "haircut" from the Big 12 on the deal.

The FOX inventory issue is easily addressed. ESPN leases them a SEC game which may or may not involve UT or OU so that the number of prime games lost to FOX is mitigated. Texas and OU add 23 more games to the inventory anyway. For that kind of settlement and considering what they get in ratings on FX1 and FX2 honoring their remaining B12 contract is not a problem. And the SEC, OU, and UT are happy because it means more prime time exposure.

The B12 would not be happy. They lose considerable exposure. That impacts recruiting and the value of the conference in any 2025 contract talks. I see no reason to accept a settlement to let Texas and Oklahoma go early. Even a big pile of money would only buy maybe one year. This should be clear from the K State AD comments. There is no rush or desire to toss Texas and Oklahoma out early and they have not requested it. Knowing the best they can hope for is one year or if ESPN is willing to throw a ridiculous amount of extra money at the remaining eight (say $250m) two years, the question becomes, why bother, why not wait it out an extra years? I mean the new CFP format doesn't start until 2026 and Texas is still collecting $32.3m from LHN for the last two years, keeping them more or less in contact with the SEC schools. Oklahoma might feel the difference but not so Texas. And ESPN can simply forward future LHN money to Texas and OU to make up for the lost distributions.

So why bother? Seems to me the only party that needs this to speed up might be ESPN.

Because they can. Because they'll make more money if they do, and because what happens after the contracted period is irrelevant in determining damages. I'm not claiming it is right as nothing is right in power transactions. But it is legal. The gulf of difference between what is legal and what is just will only grow exponentially as massive conglomerates get larger. They back the candidates who change or pass the laws, and who nominate the judges. There is much today which is legal, but nothing can make it right or just. In that world what happens to the 8 in the B12 isn't even an afterthought. You and I may or may not agree on various political issues but the growing power of corporate power through conglomerates threatens all people as individuals regardless of party, form of government, or whether liberal or conservative and the longer we let them divide us to fight each other the more we all lose.

ESPN's power is a tempest in a very visible teapot and they are only a subsidiary of Disney. FOX is a symbiotic partner posing as a rival. They will likely get what they want and the public will be told all allegations against them are false.

I'm happy the SEC is getting OU and UT as any conference's fans would be. I have never been happy with corporate America's hostile takeover of college sports. It's been Gordon Gekko all over again. What we call realignment they call product placement. What we call being left out they call a reduction in overhead justified by ratings and explained as enhancing competitiveness. What we call CFP expansion is both a facilitator and structure of further consolidation promised as inclusion.

What pisses me off is how the G5 blame the P5 and P5 think it's somehow that they are special and that the G5 are an impediment to earnings when all of it is corporate identification of an easily exploited product because its governance system was inefficient and disorganized. Now they pit us against one another as distraction to enable the final steps of making CFB and soon to be CBB into cheaper, yet popular, versions of professional sports. And why? Pro sports bargain collectively, college conferences don't. Pro sports needs a competitor to hold their prices down. College sports culled, streamlined, and made regional market efficient, are the best leverage that can be used, and oh so much cheaper to hold, even at 76.5 million per SEC school.

I wonder if schools being paid independent of conference would help this, in addition to a reform of the NCAA in general.
08-12-2021 07:00 AM
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ken d Online
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RE: Schools should be paid Independent of Conference
ESPN and Fox would love this. It would save them millions, if not billions. And, it would eliminate cries that athletes were being exploited, because they no longer would be - their schools wouldn't be banking anywhere near what they are today.
08-12-2021 07:20 AM
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DawgNBama Online
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RE: Schools should be paid Independent of Conference
(08-12-2021 07:20 AM)ken d Wrote:  ESPN and Fox would love this. It would save them millions, if not billions. And, it would eliminate cries that athletes were being exploited, because they no longer would be - their schools wouldn't be banking anywhere near what they are today.

How so??
08-12-2021 07:27 AM
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ken d Online
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RE: Schools should be paid Independent of Conference
(08-12-2021 07:27 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  
(08-12-2021 07:20 AM)ken d Wrote:  ESPN and Fox would love this. It would save them millions, if not billions. And, it would eliminate cries that athletes were being exploited, because they no longer would be - their schools wouldn't be banking anywhere near what they are today.

How so??

For starters, there are currently 65 schools getting P5 money. The majority of those would be worth substantially less. Only a handful of schools would be able to command the kind of money that the SEC and B1G do now. With each of those negotiating separately their leverage is reduced dramatically - see Notre Dame as an example. Though, to be fair, part of Notre Dame's negotiating weakness is self imposed, as they don't ever really open the bidding to all media outlets.

I don't think the Big 12 would be unique in seeing the value of their "supporting cast" cut in half or more.
08-12-2021 07:39 AM
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DFW HOYA Online
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RE: Schools should be paid Independent of Conference
(08-11-2021 11:39 PM)Renandpat Wrote:  Ohio State, Michigan, Penn State and other big stadium schools openly and readily share the ticket gate percentage of both football and basketball to other members because that's what they do as a sports conference and as an academic alliance for research and lobbying.

Most conferences do not split gate receipts. In fact, that's the issue that led to the demise of the Southwest Conference. Texas grew tired of splitting the gate with Rice, TCU, and Baylor.
08-12-2021 08:11 AM
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RE: Schools should be paid Independent of Conference
(08-11-2021 11:39 PM)Renandpat Wrote:  Ohio State, Michigan, Penn State and other big stadium schools openly and readily share the ticket gate percentage of both football and basketball to other members because that's what they do as a sports conference and as an academic alliance for research and lobbying.

There is the all for 1 mentality with the P5 conferences. This UT/OU move for more $$$ is the exception rather than the rule.
08-12-2021 08:22 AM
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ken d Online
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RE: Schools should be paid Independent of Conference
(08-11-2021 11:39 PM)Renandpat Wrote:  Ohio State, Michigan, Penn State and other big stadium schools openly and readily share the ticket gate percentage of both football and basketball to other members because that's what they do as a sports conference and as an academic alliance for research and lobbying.

But unless you are loved/hated like say Floyd Mayweather,Jr., a lesser school possesses little value to negotiate anything for their football schedule. Those Big XII schools don't have such pull and never will, but for KU crooked basketball

I know that was true at one time. Is it still in effect? Seems like I recall that visiting teams got 35% of the gate after deducting some expenses incurred by the home team. Is that about right?
08-12-2021 09:06 AM
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RE: Schools should be paid Independent of Conference
(08-12-2021 05:57 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  
(08-12-2021 05:04 AM)CardinalJim Wrote:  I like the “eat what you kill” approach to compensation but don’t see the necessity of a conference in that structure. Maybe we have come full circle and independence is the future. The next few years are going to be interesting.

Basically, the conference would provide the referees, handle any disciplinary actions, and do in-conference scheduling.

(08-11-2021 11:39 PM)Renandpat Wrote:  Ohio State, Michigan, Penn State and other big stadium schools openly and readily share the ticket gate percentage of both football and basketball to other members because that's what they do as a sports conference and as an academic alliance for research and lobbying.

I like the concept of conferences being academic alliances, and I believe that is going to be a part of the future of conferences as well. If I'm not mistaken, the Ivy League does something similar, although I could be wrong.

Depends what you mean. Many athletic conferences have "academic alliances," including the ACC and SEC. If you think it means sharing R&D money, or influences the ability to obtain research money, then no conferences have that, not even the Ivy, because that is not how research works or is funded.
08-12-2021 09:17 AM
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RE: Schools should be paid Independent of Conference
(08-11-2021 10:56 PM)jgkojak Wrote:  The big issue in realignment is the conferences have inserted themselves as middle men between the big money TV rights and the schools.

What if every team was paid directly and contracted directly with ESPN/FOX/whoever for their actual value - much like Notre Dame and BYU have negotiated.

Seems like the Texas, Alabama, Ohio State teams are letting millions of $$ they are essentially earning go to Northwestern and Wake Forest, etc. who in no way represent the same value to their conference.

I'm Oklahoma State, I negotiate a rate based on who I play in my conf season, plus for my OOC games. Iowa State, Baylor, etc. the same.

Seems like this would be a way forward for the B12 - instead of inserting themselves as the middle man - pull together a strong 14-16 team slate, let every school negotiate their own path - KU may bring in more, KSU less...

Well, it depends on how strong the conference is in terms of depth (and I'm talking about "conference realignment value" depth, which isn't necessarily the same as football depth).

I mean, you realize that what you're advocating is essentially what has doomed the Big 12 in the first place, right? The Big 12 was one extreme where so much of the league's value was concentrated in Texas and Oklahoma specifically. That's the sort of league where "eat what you kill" made more sense and it's effectively what happened with how schools retained their third tier rights (most prominently with Texas and the Longhorn Network). Texas by itself was the biggest national brand, largest market and best academic school in the Big 12 all wrapped up into one.

The Big Ten and SEC are at the other extreme. There's a lot more balance where many of the more "pedestrian" schools are still bringing in value to the conference because they are in key locations and media markets. For instance, you mention Northwestern in the Big Ten, but remember that Ohio State and Michigan are getting the benefit of BTN revenue in the Chicago market due to the combination of Illinois and Northwestern there (and similarly with Indiana and Purdue in the state of Indiana, Rutgers in the NYC market, Maryland in the DC/Baltimore region, etc.). Those revenue streams in major markets don't exist for Ohio State and Michigan without the presence of the "lower tier" schools. The SEC has similar dynamics - Alabama is making money off of Missouri being in the league because Mizzou is bringing in major markets for the SEC Network that Bama wouldn't otherwise be accessing on its own.

Here's the bottom line that I think that so many fans don't appreciate: schools want *guaranteed* revenue and they want it to be *stable* year-to-year. They *don't* want it to be tied to performance. Shooting the moon revenue-wise in 12-0 season is meaningless to schools if that means their revenue tanks in a 6-6 season (or it means their next TV contract goes down because they have a couple of 6-6 seasons in a row). Stronger conferences and equal revenue distribution provides that type of stable guaranteed revenue year after year regardless of individual performance. It's not an accident that the Big Ten and SEC, along with the NFL, all have that type of equal distribution model regarding TV rights. It's better for Ohio State, Alabama and the Dallas Cowboys to provide more to the Northwesterns and Jacksonville Jaguars of the world in exchange for more stable year-to-year revenue.

It's also instructive that the Big 12 was already the P5 league with a clear "eat what you kill" model that benefited Texas and Oklahoma the most... yet UT and OU are *still* choosing to go to the equal revenue distribution league of the SEC. Texas is freaking giving up the Longhorn Network in order to join the SEC - that should be proof alone that the strongest schools are doing the exact *opposite* of the OP proposal (with the exception of Notre Dame, which has different institutional reasons for being independent and would actually make more money as full member of the Big Ten). Instead, the most powerful brands are more likely to consolidate even more together as opposed to splitting off individually.
(This post was last modified: 08-12-2021 09:43 AM by Frank the Tank.)
08-12-2021 09:41 AM
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IceJus10 Offline
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RE: Schools should be paid Independent of Conference
Back in the 80's the College Football Alliance basically pooled all the money and tv slots offered by networks and most schools (outside of the Big 10 if I remember correctly signed their own) determined their worth separately through the alliance. Then in 1991 Notre Dame bypassed the alliance and signed what was at the time an unprecedented amount of money directly with NBC. The war was on and the push to maximize TV value ensued... and most programs not being of ND's stature, decided Conferences were a way to pool more worth and eyeballs to maximize their value to networks and thus get larger contracts. The push for larger conferences began.

In reverse, going separate would create some definite winners, but a whole hell of a lot of losers... and a down year or two could destroy a school's value, where conference diversity stabilizes numbers.
08-12-2021 12:37 PM
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Post: #17
RE: Schools should be paid Independent of Conference
Of course, the real solution to stop the madness would have been WINNING the 1984 court case that gave all the schools their TV rights.... OR settling before the fact that schools were free to put themselves on TV, but had to buy their rights from the NCAA to do so and set up a revenue sharing arrangement like a pro league.

A 50-50 split, with conferences keeping 50% and the other 50% going into a central fund evenly distributed to all of Division I would have slowed down the conference realignment for TV purposes; AND leveled the playing field so that you had 8 to 10 high level conferences instead of 4 to 6.

The BCS/P5 superiority is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Those conferences weren't really BETTER until they grabbed all the best schools from outside their group; and ESPN paid only them and disparaged anyone else. The SEC wasn't ACTUALLY "the best conference hands down, bar none" until ESPN started TELLING EVERYONE THAT non-stop when they got into bed with them. All the recruits now want to play SEC football more than anywhere else, so it becomes true and Texas has to about-face on their SEC opinion and join it for money.

We talk a lot about brands, but the brands are just "who wins most often." Alabama is a valuable property not because of their real estate, but because they've been ranked in football in 61 of the last 63 seasons. If you had 8 strong conferences with 4-6 very good teams each, you'd have a lot more valuable properties.
08-13-2021 06:19 PM
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quo vadis Online
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RE: Schools should be paid Independent of Conference
(08-13-2021 06:19 PM)JSchmack Wrote:  Of course, the real solution to stop the madness would have been WINNING the 1984 court case that gave all the schools their TV rights.... OR settling before the fact that schools were free to put themselves on TV, but had to buy their rights from the NCAA to do so and set up a revenue sharing arrangement like a pro league.

A 50-50 split, with conferences keeping 50% and the other 50% going into a central fund evenly distributed to all of Division I would have slowed down the conference realignment for TV purposes; AND leveled the playing field so that you had 8 to 10 high level conferences instead of 4 to 6.

The BCS/P5 superiority is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Those conferences weren't really BETTER until they grabbed all the best schools from outside their group; and ESPN paid only them and disparaged anyone else. The SEC wasn't ACTUALLY "the best conference hands down, bar none" until ESPN started TELLING EVERYONE THAT non-stop when they got into bed with them. All the recruits now want to play SEC football more than anywhere else, so it becomes true and Texas has to about-face on their SEC opinion and join it for money.

Well, fefore 1980, meaning before ESPN, there were five major conferences - the PAC, SEC, B8, SWC and B10 - and the ACC, a quasi-major.

In 1978, the last year there was no ESPN to tell everyone which conferences were better, of the conference teams that were ranked in the final AP top 20, the number that came from those conferences was .... all of them, every single one.

In 1977, the same thing was true.

Or if we go post-ESPN but pre-BCS, I just looked at the final AP top 25 for 1995. Of the conference teams ranked, all were from what became the "BCS-AQ" conferences save for one, Toledo at #24. In 1996, there was also one ranked team from a non-AQ conference, BYU. This was typical for back then.

Truth is, schools from non-P5 conferences are ranked more frequently now than ever were back in the pre-ESPN era. When I was growing up in the 1970s, I was only aware of the existence of those major conferences. Few knew that non-major conferences even existed at all.

The second-tier of D1 conferences have never thrived more than they have during the BCS/CFP era.

The one thing I would agree on is the SEC. For decades, the SEC was always among the very best conferences, but you couldn't say it was the clear-cut best. Heck, the SEC went 11 straight seasons, from 1981 through 1991, without winning a national title. So the "best" was a rotating kind of thing, kind of like it usually is in basketball.

But the last 15 years, that has changed. The SEC has dominated like no conference ever has, so now it is indeed fair to call it the clear-cut best.
(This post was last modified: 08-13-2021 07:07 PM by quo vadis.)
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Post: #19
RE: Schools should be paid Independent of Conference
(08-11-2021 10:56 PM)jgkojak Wrote:  The big issue in realignment is the conferences have inserted themselves as middle men between the big money TV rights and the schools.

What if every team was paid directly and contracted directly with ESPN/FOX/whoever for their actual value - much like Notre Dame and BYU have negotiated.

Seems like the Texas, Alabama, Ohio State teams are letting millions of $$ they are essentially earning go to Northwestern and Wake Forest, etc. who in no way represent the same value to their conference.

I'm Oklahoma State, I negotiate a rate based on who I play in my conf season, plus for my OOC games. Iowa State, Baylor, etc. the same.

Seems like this would be a way forward for the B12 - instead of inserting themselves as the middle man - pull together a strong 14-16 team slate, let every school negotiate their own path - KU may bring in more, KSU less...

The problem is if you do that, you'll quickly end up with a new heavy weight D1+ division and everyone else will be in the lower FBS division---which will replace FCS as the highest division nobody cares about. Maybe we are headed that direction anyway---but I have little interest in speeding up the process.
(This post was last modified: 08-13-2021 07:24 PM by Attackcoog.)
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RE: Schools should be paid Independent of Conference
(08-12-2021 12:37 PM)IceJus10 Wrote:  Back in the 80's the College Football Alliance basically pooled all the money and tv slots offered by networks and most schools (outside of the Big 10 if I remember correctly signed their own) determined their worth separately through the alliance. Then in 1991 Notre Dame bypassed the alliance and signed what was at the time an unprecedented amount of money directly with NBC. The war was on and the push to maximize TV value ensued... and most programs not being of ND's stature, decided Conferences were a way to pool more worth and eyeballs to maximize their value to networks and thus get larger contracts. The push for larger conferences began.

In reverse, going separate would create some definite winners, but a whole hell of a lot of losers... and a down year or two could destroy a school's value, where conference diversity stabilizes numbers.

This last is the point. Rights deals are for multiple years, with a given amount of money being traded for actual media value that is quite volatile, depending on the physical and emotional development of 18-23 year old young men. Anytime you have an asset to sell with a volatile and unpredictable value, finding ways to reduce the volatility of the value is as or more important as increasing the average expected value of the asset.

So the reason that media contracts are primarily with conferences and that most of the Big Independents of the 80s ended up joining conferences once the Courts ruled that each schools owns its home game rights, is because the media value of the power conference is greater than the sum of the individual media value of the schools. You have the positive sum game of the zero sum of conference results and then the OOC results including everyone scheduling one or more games against schools lower down in the hierarchy. You have the upside of a chase for a national championship by the big stadium schools cushioned by the fight for the conference championship when they are having an off year.

You even have the Big Stadium schools going through extended dry spells, as we see with That School Up North and the Vols today ... but with the older trending demographic of CFB, they then offer a greater media value for other schools in the conference for a chance to beat them that is greater than they "should be offering" given their moving average results over the past five years.

And when one of the "lesser" schools have captured lightning in a bottle and are having a historic year, whether for the school that is simply being in the mix of the conference championship or whether that is being in the national championship mix ... you have the rights for that, before knowing which year it will happen and which school it will happen to.

The value of the conference contract for any year with a given alignment is more predictable than the value of a per school contract for the exact same set of schools, and that greater predictability results in a much smaller risk premium being deducted from the average expected media value of that set of schools.

Of course, there is a balancing act between the average expected value and the insurance premium from reduced volatility in value ... which is why if USC were to recover the strength of its recruiting classes and keep it up for two or three years, and then be able to coach that into strong teams, the PAC-12 would see its perceived value go up. And why the Big Ten would not be well advised to go after Kansas to downgrade its Kings / Princes / Supporting Court distribution after the SEC has just upgraded its Kings / Princes / Supporting Court distribution.
08-13-2021 07:27 PM
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