(08-11-2021 12:24 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(08-10-2021 06:57 PM)PusherT Wrote:  I would hope these schools plus Miami would look out for WVU get them in the ACC. Get some meaningful rivalries and good northern football. Split the the ACC into north and South divisions. Have the old big East teams whoop up on them southern schools ?

I'd like to see WV in the ACC as well. IMO that is their natural best fit, and they help the ACC with a good football tradition and fan base and great geographic location.

Sadly, the Carolina Core have always looked down their nose at the "mountain men" from WV.

They had that same prejudice against VT, which is located in the foothills of the mountains.

Wrong!

UNC pushed for both VaTech and WVU’s inclusion during the ACC’s formation. VaTech made it all the way to a vote with backing by (Statefan would have to confirm this) Wake and Duke at least.

The problem was traveling to those areas at the time. That’s not prejudice, it was HARD to get there! Also, VaTech was pretty small-time until many years later; I believe they were still playing VMI during Rivalry Week until the early 80’s.

As for WVU, I wouldn’t have minded them getting BC’s spot in 2003. For some reason Miami supported BC, even though they subsequently were placed in a different division and stopped playing them. One of the many puzzles of ACC history.

I also wouldn’t have minded WVU in place of Louisville, but they had already forged west.

Ideally, WVU would have come along with Miami and VaTech and Maryland was placed in the Coastal:


Maryland—WVU
Virginia—-VaTech
Carolina—State
Duke——-Wake
GaTech—-Clemson
Miami——FSU

A few things could happen from there: ACC expands with Syracuse and Pitt. Those two fit nicely in the Coastal and Atlantic. If UMD still leaves, BC replaces them.

Or, no SU-Pitt expansion:

I think you see the Big 10 bring in Nebraska, Syracuse, and either Pitt or Rutgers. If it’s Pitt, then Rutgers ends up in the American with BC and UConn. If it’s RU, then Pitt ends up in the Big XII with TCU.

(08-10-2021 10:23 PM)Pervis_Griffith Wrote:  That'd be a no for me dawg.

But Blue and Gold Dude said it was a done deal.

Actually I'm in favor of WVU...every conference needs a "Florida Man" Fan Base.

Seriously the school is drivable for games for most of the league.

If ESPN will pay for it...why not.

The ACC doesn't want WV or they would be there already.

(08-11-2021 09:05 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(08-10-2021 10:23 PM)Pervis_Griffith Wrote:  That'd be a no for me dawg.

But Blue and Gold Dude said it was a done deal.

You've been watching him too?! I thought I was the only one here seeing that trainwreck.

Between the DudeofWV and GoldandBlueDude, West Virginia's ability to produce bat*** crazy dudes should be worthy of ACC admission alone.

(08-11-2021 08:56 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(08-11-2021 12:24 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(08-10-2021 06:57 PM)PusherT Wrote:  I would hope these schools plus Miami would look out for WVU get them in the ACC. Get some meaningful rivalries and good northern football. Split the the ACC into north and South divisions. Have the old big East teams whoop up on them southern schools ?

I'd like to see WV in the ACC as well. IMO that is their natural best fit, and they help the ACC with a good football tradition and fan base and great geographic location.

Sadly, the Carolina Core have always looked down their nose at the "mountain men" from WV.

They had that same prejudice against VT, which is located in the foothills of the mountains.

Wrong!

UNC pushed for both VaTech and WVU’s inclusion during the ACC’s formation. VaTech made it all the way to a vote with backing by (Statefan would have to confirm this) Wake and Duke at least.

The problem was traveling to those areas at the time. That’s not prejudice, it was HARD to get there! Also, VaTech was pretty small-time until many years later; I believe they were still playing VMI during Rivalry Week until the early 80’s.

As for WVU, I wouldn’t have minded them getting BC’s spot in 2003. For some reason Miami supported BC, even though they subsequently were placed in a different division and stopped playing them. One of the many puzzles of ACC history.

So what is your attitude towards WV joining the ACC now? Are there circumstances in which you would approve of that?

I don’t know, the conference is huge at this point.

(08-11-2021 08:56 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(08-11-2021 12:24 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(08-10-2021 06:57 PM)PusherT Wrote:  I would hope these schools plus Miami would look out for WVU get them in the ACC. Get some meaningful rivalries and good northern football. Split the the ACC into north and South divisions. Have the old big East teams whoop up on them southern schools ?

I'd like to see WV in the ACC as well. IMO that is their natural best fit, and they help the ACC with a good football tradition and fan base and great geographic location.

Sadly, the Carolina Core have always looked down their nose at the "mountain men" from WV.

They had that same prejudice against VT, which is located in the foothills of the mountains.

Wrong!

UNC pushed for both VaTech and WVU’s inclusion during the ACC’s formation. VaTech made it all the way to a vote with backing by (Statefan would have to confirm this) Wake and Duke at least.

The problem was traveling to those areas at the time. That’s not prejudice, it was HARD to get there! Also, VaTech was pretty small-time until many years later; I believe they were still playing VMI during Rivalry Week until the early 80’s.

As for WVU, I wouldn’t have minded them getting BC’s spot in 2003. For some reason Miami supported BC, even though they subsequently were placed in a different division and stopped playing them. One of the many puzzles of ACC history.

I also wouldn’t have minded WVU in place of Louisville, but they had already forged west.

Ideally, WVU would have come along with Miami and VaTech and Maryland was placed in the Coastal:


Maryland—WVU
Virginia—-VaTech
Carolina—State
Duke——-Wake
GaTech—-Clemson
Miami——FSU

A few things could happen from there: ACC expands with Syracuse and Pitt. Those two fit nicely in the Coastal and Atlantic. If UMD still leaves, BC replaces them.

Or, no SU-Pitt expansion:

I think you see the Big 10 bring in Nebraska, Syracuse, and either Pitt or Rutgers. If it’s Pitt, then Rutgers ends up in the American with BC and UConn. If it’s RU, then Pitt ends up in the Big XII with TCU.

IIUC, Miami wanted BC and Syracuse to come along, but then VT got into the mix due to politics and the ACC could only agree on Miami and VT at first. I assume Miami had expected either or both of BC and Syracuse to be in the same division as them. For example:

ATLANTIC/COASTAL
Clemson/Georgia Tech
Florida State/Miami-FL
Maryland/Virginia
NC State/North Carolina
Syracuse/Boston College
Wake Forest/Duke

... or:

ATLANTIC/COASTAL
Clemson/Georgia Tech
Florida State/Miami-FL
Maryland/Boston College
NC State/Wake Forest
North Carolina/Duke
Virginia/Syracuse

How is Louisville in the ACC but not West Virginia?

It's like that scene from Castaway. "So, let me get one thing straight here," muses the character played by Tom Hanks. "We have a pro football team now, but they're in Nashville?"

(08-11-2021 09:05 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(08-10-2021 10:23 PM)Pervis_Griffith Wrote:  That'd be a no for me dawg.

But Blue and Gold Dude said it was a done deal.

Actually I'm in favor of WVU...every conference needs a "Florida Man" Fan Base.

Seriously the school is drivable for games for most of the league.

If ESPN will pay for it...why not.

Fantastic post.

Florida Man fan base - - if every conference needs to have one, who are those in other conferences?

Blue and Gold dude thoughts:
-- I think he's actually the Tri State Wood Sketch people he promotes so much.
-- why is he wearing sunglasses?
-- who is he arguing with in the intro to his videos?

Blue and Gold dude drinking game:
-- 1 drink for every time he says "I was thinking"
-- 3 drinks for every time he says "that is still in play"
-- 1 drink for every time he says "revisiting something I heard"
-- Shotgun a Beer whenever he rapid fires a list of schools (must be at least 5 schools minimum to qualify).


If Notre Dame somehow miraculously decided to join, then I would accept WVU being the 16th. Even though I think Cincinnati would be a much better 16th school.

(08-11-2021 09:13 AM)panite Wrote:  The ACC doesn't want WV or they would be there already.

The reality is if ESPN wanted them in the ACC they would be there.

(08-11-2021 01:25 PM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  How is Louisville in the ACC but not West Virginia?

Karma?

In 2011 Louisville told The Big 12 upfront it would honor its commitment to The Big East / American and stay I believe at the time was 27 months.

WVU, on the other hand, agreed to leave at the end of the 2011 season making them available for The Big 12 2012 football season.

WVU paid 20 million to The Big East to leave. Louisville paid 11 million.

If WVU would have waited until 2013 to leave, they would have been available for The ACC to consider in November 2012.

WVU could have done what TCU did when it joined The Big 12. TCU was playing out the string in The MWC, planning to join The Big East in 2012, when The Big 12 came calling. TCU just paid 5 million to The Big East and joined The Big 12.

(08-11-2021 12:24 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(08-10-2021 06:57 PM)PusherT Wrote:  I would hope these schools plus Miami would look out for WVU get them in the ACC. Get some meaningful rivalries and good northern football. Split the the ACC into north and South divisions. Have the old big East teams whoop up on them southern schools ?

I'd like to see WV in the ACC as well. IMO that is their natural best fit, and they help the ACC with a good football tradition and fan base and great geographic location.

Sadly, the Carolina Core have always looked down their nose at the "mountain men" from WV.

They had that same prejudice against VT, which is located in the foothills of the mountains.

You really should stop talking when you know nothing and you know nothing.

MD, Duke, Clemson, and SC formed the ACC, not UNC, NC State, and WF. MD and SC specifically engineered UVa's seat at the table prior to the first official meeting so that they had a fourth vote against Virginia Tech.

Carolina made the motion to bring VT along - all four NC schools voted for the motion. The other four did not. Carolina then made a motion for West Va., and it died for lack of a second. West Va. was never considered again. By the mid 1960's tempers against VT had cooled, but ACC basketball was so popular that no one wanted to share ACC Basketball Tournament Tickets with them. I realize this is difficult for some to understand.

The problem with WVa today is that it is unlike every other traditional ACC school. It admits students under and open admissions policy. It grants various tuition deals to out of State students in Ohio and a few other counties. It means that the cost of paying for a scholarship at West Va is only about $20-25K a year while it's $55-65K or so at Duke, WF, and UVa. Multiply that over 300 athletes and you get a hell of cost differential. BC and Syracuse are also private. Pitt is private for all practical purposes and the Commonwealth gives very little money to Pitt as opposed to the money given to NC State, UNC, Clemson, and FSU by the State.

That means the negatives are:

1. Competition against a foe who can spend $7-10 M less than you for the same students.
2. Competition against a general admission school when you are very or highly selective.
3. A corresponding academic softening of regular classes in line with the admissions policy (it does no good to admit kids functioning at just 11th grade only to flunk them out, so you water it down)
4. You have to cheat to do what they can do within their own rules
5. You have to travel to Morgantown in the winter
6. The reputation of WVa fans is horrible, although the actual behavior is better

That's a lot to overcome. I think it would take at least $5 million more per school to overcome that means adding WVa has to be worth over $120 M to the ACC. And since UVa, Duke, ND, only like money, and don't NEED money, you can't buy them.

Following up on Nerdlinger, look at the Appalachian Regional Commissions highway plan for the area south of Pittsburgh and north of the TriCities. https://www.arc.gov/wp-content/uploads/2...9-2013.pdf
You will see various projects that were planned in the early 1960's, most of which have been finished. A two lane **** road up and down the Appalachians in the winter was not for the feint of heart back in the day, and that day was a recent as the early 1970's. Worse still is what happened to kids from Marshall and don't think that did not resonate with flat land college administration.

It's not "personal" between WVa and the ACC. Crying about being a hillbilly is crap when hillbilly and holler dwellers already inhabit SW NY, Western Pa, Western Va, Eastern KY, Western NC, and NW SC. Swofford himself was a hillbilly hick from Wilkesboro, born and bred at the real home of NASCAR racing. (Here is where you can insert the obligatory joke about wearing shoes, incest, missing teeth, etc., etc.)

(08-11-2021 08:56 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(08-11-2021 12:24 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(08-10-2021 06:57 PM)PusherT Wrote:  I would hope these schools plus Miami would look out for WVU get them in the ACC. Get some meaningful rivalries and good northern football. Split the the ACC into north and South divisions. Have the old big East teams whoop up on them southern schools ?

I'd like to see WV in the ACC as well. IMO that is their natural best fit, and they help the ACC with a good football tradition and fan base and great geographic location.

Sadly, the Carolina Core have always looked down their nose at the "mountain men" from WV.

They had that same prejudice against VT, which is located in the foothills of the mountains.

Wrong!

UNC pushed for both VaTech and WVU’s inclusion during the ACC’s formation. VaTech made it all the way to a vote with backing by (Statefan would have to confirm this) Wake and Duke at least.

The problem was traveling to those areas at the time. That’s not prejudice, it was HARD to get there! Also, VaTech was pretty small-time until many years later; I believe they were still playing VMI during Rivalry Week until the early 80’s.

As for WVU, I wouldn’t have minded them getting BC’s spot in 2003. For some reason Miami supported BC, even though they subsequently were placed in a different division and stopped playing them. One of the many puzzles of ACC history.

I also wouldn’t have minded WVU in place of Louisville, but they had already forged west.

Ideally, WVU would have come along with Miami and VaTech and Maryland was placed in the Coastal:


Maryland—WVU
Virginia—-VaTech
Carolina—State
Duke——-Wake
GaTech—-Clemson
Miami——FSU

A few things could happen from there: ACC expands with Syracuse and Pitt. Those two fit nicely in the Coastal and Atlantic. If UMD still leaves, BC replaces them.

Or, no SU-Pitt expansion:

I think you see the Big 10 bring in Nebraska, Syracuse, and either Pitt or Rutgers. If it’s Pitt, then Rutgers ends up in the American with BC and UConn. If it’s RU, then Pitt ends up in the Big XII with TCU.

People forget that the ACC was originally extremely compact. There were 6 schools was in the Carolinas (USC was a founding member), plus UVA and Maryland.

I'd be very surprised if any SEC school wanted WVU in 1953. West Virginia would have been an extreme geographic outlier before 1992.

(08-11-2021 03:46 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(08-11-2021 12:24 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(08-10-2021 06:57 PM)PusherT Wrote:  I would hope these schools plus Miami would look out for WVU get them in the ACC. Get some meaningful rivalries and good northern football. Split the the ACC into north and South divisions. Have the old big East teams whoop up on them southern schools ?

I'd like to see WV in the ACC as well. IMO that is their natural best fit, and they help the ACC with a good football tradition and fan base and great geographic location.

Sadly, the Carolina Core have always looked down their nose at the "mountain men" from WV.

They had that same prejudice against VT, which is located in the foothills of the mountains.

You really should stop talking when you know nothing and you know nothing.

MD, Duke, Clemson, and SC formed the ACC, not UNC, NC State, and WF. MD and SC specifically engineered UVa's seat at the table prior to the first official meeting so that they had a fourth vote against Virginia Tech.

Carolina made the motion to bring VT along - all four NC schools voted for the motion. The other four did not. Carolina then made a motion for West Va., and it died for lack of a second. West Va. was never considered again. By the mid 1960's tempers against VT had cooled, but ACC basketball was so popular that no one wanted to share ACC Basketball Tournament Tickets with them. I realize this is difficult for some to understand.

The problem with WVa today is that it is unlike every other traditional ACC school. It admits students under and open admissions policy. It grants various tuition deals to out of State students in Ohio and a few other counties. It means that the cost of paying for a scholarship at West Va is only about $20-25K a year while it's $55-65K or so at Duke, WF, and UVa. Multiply that over 300 athletes and you get a hell of cost differential. BC and Syracuse are also private. Pitt is private for all practical purposes and the Commonwealth gives very little money to Pitt as opposed to the money given to NC State, UNC, Clemson, and FSU by the State.

That means the negatives are:

1. Competition against a foe who can spend $7-10 M less than you for the same students.
2. Competition against a general admission school when you are very or highly selective.
3. A corresponding academic softening of regular classes in line with the admissions policy (it does no good to admit kids functioning at just 11th grade only to flunk them out, so you water it down)
4. You have to cheat to do what they can do within their own rules
5. You have to travel to Morgantown in the winter
6. The reputation of WVa fans is horrible, although the actual behavior is better

That's a lot to overcome. I think it would take at least $5 million more per school to overcome that means adding WVa has to be worth over $120 M to the ACC. And since UVa, Duke, ND, only like money, and don't NEED money, you can't buy them.

Following up on Nerdlinger, look at the Appalachian Regional Commissions highway plan for the area south of Pittsburgh and north of the TriCities. https://www.arc.gov/wp-content/uploads/2...9-2013.pdf
You will see various projects that were planned in the early 1960's, most of which have been finished. A two lane **** road up and down the Appalachians in the winter was not for the feint of heart back in the day, and that day was a recent as the early 1970's. Worse still is what happened to kids from Marshall and don't think that did not resonate with flat land college administration.

Few ACC fans, even many of those of charter member schools, understand how important the ACC tournament was back then. First, it was the only way to get into the NCAAT. But more important, it was the social event of the year. Tickets were scarce, and they (not football tix) drove the bus when it came to extracting donations from fans, since that was the only way you could get them. Schools virtually shut down on Friday, as teachers wheeled TVs into their classrooms to watch the afternoon session. Thousands of fans assembled in the parking lot at the Greensboro Coliseum hoping to score tickets from fans of the first round losers. It might all seem quaint today, but it was a big deal back then.

(08-11-2021 01:56 PM)Pervis_Griffith Wrote:  

(08-11-2021 09:05 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(08-10-2021 10:23 PM)Pervis_Griffith Wrote:  That'd be a no for me dawg.

But Blue and Gold Dude said it was a done deal.

Actually I'm in favor of WVU...every conference needs a "Florida Man" Fan Base.

Seriously the school is drivable for games for most of the league.

If ESPN will pay for it...why not.

Fantastic post.

Florida Man fan base - - if every conference needs to have one, who are those in other conferences?

Blue and Gold dude thoughts:
-- I think he's actually the Tri State Wood Sketch people he promotes so much.
-- why is he wearing sunglasses?
-- who is he arguing with in the intro to his videos?

Blue and Gold dude drinking game:
-- 1 drink for every time he says "I was thinking"
-- 3 drinks for every time he says "that is still in play"
-- 1 drink for every time he says "revisiting something I heard"
-- Shotgun a Beer whenever he rapid fires a list of schools (must be at least 5 schools minimum to qualify).

I discovered Gold and Blue Dude on Youtube a few nights ago -- a life-changing experience. I found myself binge-watching all his videos because it was a trainwreck I could not take my eyes away from.

Pretend for a moment the the ACC did get WVU and ND as full members.

Do you do permanent divisions or rotating pods?

(08-11-2021 05:14 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Pretend for a moment the the ACC did get WVU and ND as full members.

Do you do permanent divisions or rotating pods?

ND opponents would have to be protected… maybe BC, maybe FSU, maybe Pitt, maybe Miami.

Whatever combo, ND would require the marquee opponents every year. I don’t think Clemson would qualify historically.

Overall, I don’t see a fit there for ND with all the scheduling restrictions that comes with it, pods or otherwise. They don’t want to lock themselves into 8-9 ACC opponents, giving them no flexibility once USC, Stanford, Navy are locked in as OOC.

(08-10-2021 08:05 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  The way I see it,
YES = 8 (Pitt, VT, Louisville, Syracuse, Miami, Clemson, FSU, BC)
NO = 2 (GT, Duke)
??? = 5 (NC State, UVa, UNC, Notre Dame, Wake Forest)

To invite WVU, the ACC would need at least 12 YES votes + 1 abstain (or 13 YES).
In other words, it's plausible, but tight - the swing votes either have to be all YES or 4 YES and one abstain - not more than 3 NO votes.

ACCFootballRx went over this in great detail in 2018 in "WVU Belongs in the ACC".

I don’t think VT would/should vote for WVU.

What WVU has is the football history and rabid fan base. But they don’t have future. About 30 years ago, WVU is a better candidate than VT and Louisville. They became a Big East full member earlier than VT did. But the value of WVU stock steadily declines and nobody would take WVU in 2021. I doubt the Big 12 would choose WVU over Louisville if they make a choice now.

In my opinion WVU will become (or already became) like ECU. A regional school in the ACC territory with some rivalries with a few ACC schools but without any real chance to get an invitation.

(08-11-2021 08:56 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(08-11-2021 12:24 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(08-10-2021 06:57 PM)PusherT Wrote:  I would hope these schools plus Miami would look out for WVU get them in the ACC. Get some meaningful rivalries and good northern football. Split the the ACC into north and South divisions. Have the old big East teams whoop up on them southern schools ?

I'd like to see WV in the ACC as well. IMO that is their natural best fit, and they help the ACC with a good football tradition and fan base and great geographic location.

Sadly, the Carolina Core have always looked down their nose at the "mountain men" from WV.

They had that same prejudice against VT, which is located in the foothills of the mountains.

Wrong!

UNC pushed for both VaTech and WVU’s inclusion during the ACC’s formation. VaTech made it all the way to a vote with backing by (Statefan would have to confirm this) Wake and Duke at least.

The problem was traveling to those areas at the time. That’s not prejudice, it was HARD to get there! Also, VaTech was pretty small-time until many years later; I believe they were still playing VMI during Rivalry Week until the early 80’s.

As for WVU, I wouldn’t have minded them getting BC’s spot in 2003. For some reason Miami supported BC, even though they subsequently were placed in a different division and stopped playing them. One of the many puzzles of ACC history.

I also wouldn’t have minded WVU in place of Louisville, but they had already forged west.

Ideally, WVU would have come along with Miami and VaTech and Maryland was placed in the Coastal:


Maryland—WVU
Virginia—-VaTech
Carolina—State
Duke——-Wake
GaTech—-Clemson
Miami——FSU

A few things could happen from there: ACC expands with Syracuse and Pitt. Those two fit nicely in the Coastal and Atlantic. If UMD still leaves, BC replaces them.

Or, no SU-Pitt expansion:

I think you see the Big 10 bring in Nebraska, Syracuse, and either Pitt or Rutgers. If it’s Pitt, then Rutgers ends up in the American with BC and UConn. If it’s RU, then Pitt ends up in the Big XII with TCU.

Miami, VA Tech, and WVU would have been the most sensical additions to get to 12. The division split you proposed would have worked well too. Too bad they were so focused on markets