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UNCW and and the CAA
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Seahawk Nation 08 Offline
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Post: #41
RE: UNCW and and the CAA
I've been told us, CofC, and Elon are all looking to exit the CAA. For Elon, that decision will be driven by football. For CofC, a return to the SoCon is possible, but there may be other options for them. For us, the A-Sun, SoCon, and Big South are all possibilities. The A-Sun Commissioner visited campus not long ago. And in 1-2 months, the CAA will be meeting with several schools that are demanding changes and/or planning to leave the league.

Excellent news all around, but until anything is official on this I'm not going to assume we're done with the CAA just yet.
09-19-2021 03:30 AM
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82hawk Online
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RE: UNCW and and the CAA
(09-19-2021 03:30 AM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  I've been told us, CofC, and Elon are all looking to exit the CAA. For Elon, that decision will be driven by football. For CofC, a return to the SoCon is possible, but there may be other options for them. For us, the A-Sun, SoCon, and Big South are all possibilities. The A-Sun Commissioner visited campus not long ago. And in 1-2 months, the CAA will be meeting with several schools that are demanding changes and/or planning to leave the league.

Excellent news all around, but until anything is official on this I'm not going to assume we're done with the CAA just yet.

If true, it's good all around. It's time to force some issues in the CAA. Either move to N/S divisions or let's move to a conference where we can have some rivals.

I could see UNCW and CofC moving together to the SoCon as non football schools to improve basketball. That's an easy add since you still have an even number going from 10 to 12 schools. And it would definitely improve the conference and the rivalries for fans. UNCW, UNCG, WCU and CofC in the same basketball conference would be better than the CAA.

But what if UNCW moved to the SoCon with the understanding of adding football? Chancellor Sartarelli has wanted to add football at UNCW since day 1 and moving to the SoCon would make that more likely to happen. And quite frankly, if WCU can fund football so can UNCW. I've come around on adding football, especially as our size has increased pretty dramatically. Also, the SoCon is at 9 schools for football, so adding another team would round it out to 10. UNCW could have a team on the field in two years to make it 10, and I think we could become competitive fairly quickly at the FCS level.
(This post was last modified: 09-19-2021 07:05 AM by 82hawk.)
09-19-2021 06:32 AM
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70shawk Offline
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RE: UNCW and and the CAA
(09-19-2021 06:32 AM)82hawk Wrote:  And quite frankly, if WCU can fund football so can UNCW.

Ah! The football dream! That's a mighty big check you will have to write to fund it - and the Title IX equivalents - my friend!

Seriously, interesting developments. There isn't any visible sign that the CAA office has heretofore been proactive about doing anything creative. Commissioner "Joey D" saying that "Trickle-down effect is always possible" from realignment reinforces that. It's not possible, is probable or inevitable. If the guy has a clue, he's been hiding it behind his concern over bathroom bills and coronavirus shots.

So just sitting and waiting to see what happens means losing teams, then scrambling to replace them. The CAA was a three bid league 15 years ago. Now look at it.

Imagine what it will look like after
09-19-2021 07:16 AM
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solohawks Online
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RE: UNCW and and the CAA
CoC and UNCW joining the SoCon together as #11 and #12 would be best case scenario at this point.

A yearly conference tournament in Asheville would be so nice
09-19-2021 07:55 AM
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70shawk Offline
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RE: UNCW and and the CAA
(This post was last modified: 09-19-2021 08:32 AM by 70shawk.)
09-19-2021 08:29 AM
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82hawk Online
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RE: UNCW and and the CAA
(09-19-2021 07:16 AM)70shawk Wrote:  
(09-19-2021 06:32 AM)82hawk Wrote:  And quite frankly, if WCU can fund football so can UNCW.

Ah! The football dream! That's a mighty big check you will have to write to fund it - and the Title IX equivalents - my friend!

Seriously, interesting developments. There isn't any visible sign that the CAA office has heretofore been proactive about doing anything creative. Commissioner "Joey D" saying that "Trickle-down effect is always possible" from realignment reinforces that. It's not possible, is probable or inevitable. If the guy has a clue, he's been hiding it behind his concern over bathroom bills and coronavirus shots.

So just sitting and waiting to see what happens means losing teams, then scrambling to replace them. The CAA was a three bid league 15 years ago. Now look at it.

Imagine what it will look like after

Haven't seen many challenges Sartarelli hasn't been able to meet when he's wanted to. He comes from a big money career background so the idea of bringing in big money for football i'm sure doesn't phase him. Also, he's a builder and a legacy guy. He'd like nothing more than to be the Chancellor that made football happen at UNCW. And I think football would take UNCW to the next level. A lot more students would make UNCW their top choice if we had football. I know a boat load of kids who would have come to UNCW if we had football and went elsewhere because we didn't have football.
09-19-2021 09:09 AM
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geezerhawkdad Offline
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Post: #47
RE: UNCW and and the CAA
The SoCon may expand, but don't look for CofC to join anytime soon. There were bad feelings between the conference and school when they broke up. CofC said some nasty things about the conference.

The Southern stumbled upon a 10 member conference when they had the mass defections in the mid-'10s. 9 is the best number for football because every football member can play every other member annually and everyone has 4 conference home games. The number works well for basketball because everyone plays everyone else twice. If UNCG ever left, they'd be replaced by another non-football school.

A smaller conference means a larger NCAA basketball tournament share for each team.

Elon moved to the CAA because much of their student body comes from the mid-atlantic. If JMU exits the CAA, Elon will move up in the standings and have a better chance of making the playoffs.

One argument in favor of Elon and CofC returning to the SoCon is the conference's history. Schools that leave or are kicked out tend to return. VMI, ETSU, and Davidson left and returned.
09-19-2021 10:36 AM
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RE: UNCW and and the CAA
SoCon had a pretty good model with 9 football 12 all sports back before CoC left. I would push for that lineup of CoC is serious about returing so that hopefully we could join as well
09-19-2021 11:25 AM
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Post: #49
RE: UNCW and and the CAA
As I've said before. Unless all this realignment has changed the SoCon's vision, they do not want to add any non football schools. UNCG has an exemption as long as they don't leave. East Tennessee State was able to get back in only by bringing back football.
I would love to join the SoCon, but I don't know where we would find the money to start football. Last I saw, it cost around $10 million just to start up.
09-19-2021 01:34 PM
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RE: UNCW and and the CAA
(09-19-2021 01:34 PM)SEA33HAWK Wrote:  As I've said before. Unless all this realignment has changed the SoCon's vision, they do not want to add any non football schools. UNCG has an exemption as long as they don't leave. East Tennessee State was able to get back in only by bringing back football.
I would love to join the SoCon, but I don't know where we would find the money to start football. Last I saw, it cost around $10 million just to start up.

I really like the SoCon's mission statement. It a proactive approach. Unlike our CAA leadership.
09-19-2021 02:01 PM
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RE: UNCW and and the CAA
(09-19-2021 10:36 AM)geezerhawkdad Wrote:  The SoCon may expand, but don't look for CofC to join anytime soon. There were bad feelings between the conference and school when they broke up. CofC said some nasty things about the conference.

The Southern stumbled upon a 10 member conference when they had the mass defections in the mid-'10s. 9 is the best number for football because every football member can play every other member annually and everyone has 4 conference home games. The number works well for basketball because everyone plays everyone else twice. If UNCG ever left, they'd be replaced by another non-football school.

A smaller conference means a larger NCAA basketball tournament share for each team.

Elon moved to the CAA because much of their student body comes from the mid-atlantic. If JMU exits the CAA, Elon will move up in the standings and have a better chance of making the playoffs.

One argument in favor of Elon and CofC returning to the SoCon is the conference's history. Schools that leave or are kicked out tend to return. VMI, ETSU, and Davidson left and returned.

The NCAA shares from tournament appearances doesn't change drastically with two more schools. The possibility for multiple NCAA bids outweighs that cost. Adding two schools that aren't just basketball only, but committed to and capable of success in basketball, certainly has a greater upside than downside for the SoCon. The addition of UNCW and CofC would also increase attendance across the board with rivalries in the Carolinas from pretty big schools with pretty large alumni bases.

UNCG is by far the biggest school in the conference with just at 20,000 students. Five of the ten schools have less than 6,000 students.

UNCW - right at 18,000 and growing dramatically.
CofC - 9,300

UNCW would be the second biggest school in the conference and closing in on UNCG, and CofC would be the fifth largest in the conference. And most importantly, both of those schools would make basketball much stronger.

With all the expanding and movement in conferences, UNCW and CofC represent good schools in the footprint of the conference, which represents a better chance for long term stability. If UNCW gets in a conference with UNCG, WCU and CofC, there is really no reason to move in the future. We could likely add FCS football if we like. Then our only other reason to move out of the SoCon is if we went FBS.

It's really a win/win for the conference and UNCW and Cofc.
(This post was last modified: 09-19-2021 04:17 PM by 82hawk.)
09-19-2021 02:40 PM
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Post: #52
RE: UNCW and and the CAA
Brian Mull on the CAA when ODU, VCU and GaState bolted on 2012. If only these things had happened, the CAA wouldn't be imploding now.

"For geographic balance and media relevance, the CAA must raid the Southern Conference. The league needs strong basketball programs. It can sell the opportunity for at-large bids to the NCAA Tournament, something the SoCon has never experienced.
Start with College of Charleston and Davidson, two basketball-first destinations with strong academics.
Pursue Appalachian State, Elon and Furman for football purposes, although commissioner Tom Yeager and conference ADs insist decisions will be basketball-driven.
Consider resurgent UNC-Greensboro, with rising star coach Wes Miller."

Adding Charlotte or Charleston or Greenville, S.C., or Greensboro gives UNCW natural rivals and friendlier road trips, while also putting the CAA into virgin territory where people are passionate about college sports. The conference could implement a North/South divisional format to minimize travel costs.

https://www.starnewsonline.com/article/N...5041489/WM
09-19-2021 06:00 PM
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RE: UNCW and and the CAA
(09-19-2021 06:00 PM)82hawk Wrote:  Brian Mull on the CAA when ODU, VCU and GaState bolted on 2012. If only these things had happened, the CAA wouldn't be imploding now.

"For geographic balance and media relevance, the CAA must raid the Southern Conference. The league needs strong basketball programs. It can sell the opportunity for at-large bids to the NCAA Tournament, something the SoCon has never experienced.
Start with College of Charleston and Davidson, two basketball-first destinations with strong academics.
Pursue Appalachian State, Elon and Furman for football purposes, although commissioner Tom Yeager and conference ADs insist decisions will be basketball-driven.
Consider resurgent UNC-Greensboro, with rising star coach Wes Miller."

Adding Charlotte or Charleston or Greenville, S.C., or Greensboro gives UNCW natural rivals and friendlier road trips, while also putting the CAA into virgin territory where people are passionate about college sports. The conference could implement a North/South divisional format to minimize travel costs.

https://www.starnewsonline.com/article/N...5041489/WM

To be fair Yeager tried this

Furman and Davidson made it clear they weren't coming and App State wanted to be in FBS

Where they messed up was not grabbing UNCG and Stony Brook AND going to divisions. Hofstra's hissy fit blocked Stony Brook. No Stony Brook led to no UNCG and no divisions

Now its too late.

Stony brook is in the CAA for football and has no reason to leave the AEast and have extra travel. UNCG is in the SoCon where the basketball and media and travel are better than the CAA
09-19-2021 06:15 PM
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RE: UNCW and and the CAA
(09-19-2021 06:15 PM)solohawks Wrote:  
(09-19-2021 06:00 PM)82hawk Wrote:  Brian Mull on the CAA when ODU, VCU and GaState bolted on 2012. If only these things had happened, the CAA wouldn't be imploding now.

"For geographic balance and media relevance, the CAA must raid the Southern Conference. The league needs strong basketball programs. It can sell the opportunity for at-large bids to the NCAA Tournament, something the SoCon has never experienced.
Start with College of Charleston and Davidson, two basketball-first destinations with strong academics.
Pursue Appalachian State, Elon and Furman for football purposes, although commissioner Tom Yeager and conference ADs insist decisions will be basketball-driven.
Consider resurgent UNC-Greensboro, with rising star coach Wes Miller."

Adding Charlotte or Charleston or Greenville, S.C., or Greensboro gives UNCW natural rivals and friendlier road trips, while also putting the CAA into virgin territory where people are passionate about college sports. The conference could implement a North/South divisional format to minimize travel costs.

https://www.starnewsonline.com/article/N...5041489/WM

To be fair Yeager tried this

Furman and Davidson made it clear they weren't coming and App State wanted to be in FBS

Where they messed up was not grabbing UNCG and Stony Brook AND going to divisions. Hofstra's hissy fit blocked Stony Brook. No Stony Brook led to no UNCG and no divisions

Now its too late.

Stony brook is in the CAA for football and has no reason to leave the AEast and have extra travel. UNCG is in the SoCon where the basketball and media and travel are better than the CAA

Yep. N/S divisions would have the CAA in a completely different position, and UNCG in the south with us and CofC.

Here's where I stand:

As a non-football school

Ideal target in the future- A10
Next best - SoCon if they would add non football schools. If they did, i'd forgo the A10 future.
Next best - CAA with N/S divisions
Bail out conference - anyone who will take us

If we could add FCS football with full membership

Ideal target - SoCon no brainer.
Next best - CAA N/S divisions
Bail out - none. Stay without football.

If I were in charge, i'd have UNCW heading to the SoCon one way or the other. If they'd take UNCW and CofC as basketball only schools, let's go. If they tell us we can come if we add football, let's go.

For long term stability and entry level fcs football, SoCon or bust!
09-19-2021 06:45 PM
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RE: UNCW and and the CAA
(09-19-2021 02:40 PM)82hawk Wrote:  [quote='geezerhawkdad' pid='17654883' dateline='1632065785']
The SoCon may expand, but don't look for CofC to join anytime soon. There were bad feelings between the conference and school when they broke up. CofC said some nasty things about the conference.

The Southern stumbled upon a 10 member conference when they had the mass defections in the mid-'10s. 9 is the best number for football because every football member can play every other member annually and everyone has 4 conference home games. The number works well for basketball because everyone plays everyone else twice. If UNCG ever left, they'd be replaced by another non-football school.

A smaller conference means a larger NCAA basketball tournament share for each team.

Elon moved to the CAA because much of their student body comes from the mid-atlantic. If JMU exits the CAA, Elon will move up in the standings and have a better chance of making the playoffs.

One argument in favor of Elon and CofC returning to the SoCon is the conference's history. Schools that leave or are kicked out tend to return. VMI, ETSU, and Davidson left and returned.

The NCAA shares from tournament appearances doesn't change drastically with two more schools. The possibility for multiple NCAA bids outweighs that cost. Adding two schools that aren't just basketball only, but committed to and capable of success in basketball, certainly has a greater upside than downside for the SoCon. The addition of UNCW and CofC would also increase attendance across the board with rivalries in the Carolinas from pretty big schools with pretty large alumni bases.

UNCG is by far the biggest school in the conference with just at 20,000 students. Five of the ten schools have less than 6,000 students.

UNCW - right at 18,000 and growing dramatically.
CofC - 9,300

UNCW would be the second biggest school in the conference and closing in on UNCG, and CofC would be the fifth largest in the conference. And most importantly, both of those schools would make basketball much stronger.

With all the expanding and movement in conferences, UNCW and CofC represent good schools in the footprint of the conference, which represents a better chance for long term stability. If UNCW gets in a conference with UNCG, WCU and CofC, there is really no reason to move in the future. We could likely add FCS football if we like. Then our only other reason to move out of the SoCon is if we went FBS.

It's really a win/win for the conference and UNCW and Cofc.
[/quote

Why would the small enrollment schools funding FCS football in a one bid basketball conference want to add larger enrollment schools to their conference that aren’t funding FCS football? Seems like they’d be putting their basketball programs at a perpetual resource disadvantage.
09-19-2021 08:11 PM
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RE: UNCW and and the CAA
(09-19-2021 08:11 PM)Florida tribe fan Wrote:  
(09-19-2021 02:40 PM)82hawk Wrote:  [quote='geezerhawkdad' pid='17654883' dateline='1632065785']
The SoCon may expand, but don't look for CofC to join anytime soon. There were bad feelings between the conference and school when they broke up. CofC said some nasty things about the conference.

The Southern stumbled upon a 10 member conference when they had the mass defections in the mid-'10s. 9 is the best number for football because every football member can play every other member annually and everyone has 4 conference home games. The number works well for basketball because everyone plays everyone else twice. If UNCG ever left, they'd be replaced by another non-football school.

A smaller conference means a larger NCAA basketball tournament share for each team.

Elon moved to the CAA because much of their student body comes from the mid-atlantic. If JMU exits the CAA, Elon will move up in the standings and have a better chance of making the playoffs.

One argument in favor of Elon and CofC returning to the SoCon is the conference's history. Schools that leave or are kicked out tend to return. VMI, ETSU, and Davidson left and returned.

The NCAA shares from tournament appearances doesn't change drastically with two more schools. The possibility for multiple NCAA bids outweighs that cost. Adding two schools that aren't just basketball only, but committed to and capable of success in basketball, certainly has a greater upside than downside for the SoCon. The addition of UNCW and CofC would also increase attendance across the board with rivalries in the Carolinas from pretty big schools with pretty large alumni bases.

UNCG is by far the biggest school in the conference with just at 20,000 students. Five of the ten schools have less than 6,000 students.

UNCW - right at 18,000 and growing dramatically.
CofC - 9,300

UNCW would be the second biggest school in the conference and closing in on UNCG, and CofC would be the fifth largest in the conference. And most importantly, both of those schools would make basketball much stronger.

With all the expanding and movement in conferences, UNCW and CofC represent good schools in the footprint of the conference, which represents a better chance for long term stability. If UNCW gets in a conference with UNCG, WCU and CofC, there is really no reason to move in the future. We could likely add FCS football if we like. Then our only other reason to move out of the SoCon is if we went FBS.

It's really a win/win for the conference and UNCW and Cofc.
[/quote

Why would the small enrollment schools funding FCS football in a one bid basketball conference want to add larger enrollment schools to their conference that aren’t funding FCS football? Seems like they’d be putting their basketball programs at a perpetual resource disadvantage.

It's the chicken and the egg. The SoCon is historically a one bid conference, and the smaller resource schools aren't usually the ones going to the Big Dance. If football is their primary goal, then they are hoping upon hope they get lucky every once in a while and win the conference tournament, but the fact is they haven't. Sorry, but VMI and The Citadel are not going to win the SoCon tournament or bring an at-large bid. Honestly, the SoCon would be better off if those two school played basketball in a different conference.

In the last 21 years, here are the schools that won the tournament and went to the Big Dance. The SoCon hasn't had an at-large bid in at least 21 years.

Davidson - 6
Wofford - 5
ETSU - 4
UNCG - 3
Chattanooga - 3

Wofford had most of their success since Davidson left, but no other schools have emerged and their coach left. UNCG lost their coach as well. This means that 6 of the 10 schools in the SoCon haven't been to the NCAA tournament in 21 years. So the money they get from NCAA shares is a small piece of the pie, earned by other schools.

An NCAA share was worth about $279,000 in 2020. If that were distributed equally in the SoCon, that would be $27,900 per school, per year for six years. With 10 schools, adding 2 schools would lower that to $23,250 per school. But NCAA shares aren't distributed equally in the SoCon, so that figure is even less for those who haven't gone to the tournament. Wofford did win their opening round game, so that figure is doubled for six years. Still not significant.

The key to ANY conference seeing a significant amount of revenue from NCAA tournament appearances, is for your conference to have multiple bids on a regular basis. And those multiple bids also make the odds of winning opening round games, or more, much more likely and getting even more shares.

The CAA actually had several years of multiple bids AND multiple wins in the NCAA tournament. The SoCon just lost their two best coaches this past year and they never got at-large bids in the NCAA. UNCG has the capability for continued success due to their size and location, but Wofford doesn't.

UNCW and CofC give the SoCon a much better chance of doubling the NCAA shares, and moving the conference to multiple bids on a somewhat regular basis What you are discussing is a conference fighting over wins they haven't gotten and aren't getting.

BUT, I could seriously picture UNCW agreeing to add football to gain entrance, and this discussion would be moot. I doubt CofC would add football, so I could see UNCW and Elon back in the SoCon, or maybe UNCW and William and Mary.
09-19-2021 09:06 PM
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RE: UNCW and and the CAA
(09-19-2021 09:06 PM)82hawk Wrote:  
(09-19-2021 08:11 PM)Florida tribe fan Wrote:  
(09-19-2021 02:40 PM)82hawk Wrote:  [quote='geezerhawkdad' pid='17654883' dateline='1632065785']
The SoCon may expand, but don't look for CofC to join anytime soon. There were bad feelings between the conference and school when they broke up. CofC said some nasty things about the conference.

The Southern stumbled upon a 10 member conference when they had the mass defections in the mid-'10s. 9 is the best number for football because every football member can play every other member annually and everyone has 4 conference home games. The number works well for basketball because everyone plays everyone else twice. If UNCG ever left, they'd be replaced by another non-football school.

A smaller conference means a larger NCAA basketball tournament share for each team.

Elon moved to the CAA because much of their student body comes from the mid-atlantic. If JMU exits the CAA, Elon will move up in the standings and have a better chance of making the playoffs.

One argument in favor of Elon and CofC returning to the SoCon is the conference's history. Schools that leave or are kicked out tend to return. VMI, ETSU, and Davidson left and returned.

The NCAA shares from tournament appearances doesn't change drastically with two more schools. The possibility for multiple NCAA bids outweighs that cost. Adding two schools that aren't just basketball only, but committed to and capable of success in basketball, certainly has a greater upside than downside for the SoCon. The addition of UNCW and CofC would also increase attendance across the board with rivalries in the Carolinas from pretty big schools with pretty large alumni bases.

UNCG is by far the biggest school in the conference with just at 20,000 students. Five of the ten schools have less than 6,000 students.

UNCW - right at 18,000 and growing dramatically.
CofC - 9,300

UNCW would be the second biggest school in the conference and closing in on UNCG, and CofC would be the fifth largest in the conference. And most importantly, both of those schools would make basketball much stronger.

With all the expanding and movement in conferences, UNCW and CofC represent good schools in the footprint of the conference, which represents a better chance for long term stability. If UNCW gets in a conference with UNCG, WCU and CofC, there is really no reason to move in the future. We could likely add FCS football if we like. Then our only other reason to move out of the SoCon is if we went FBS.

It's really a win/win for the conference and UNCW and Cofc.
[/quote

Why would the small enrollment schools funding FCS football in a one bid basketball conference want to add larger enrollment schools to their conference that aren’t funding FCS football? Seems like they’d be putting their basketball programs at a perpetual resource disadvantage.

It's the chicken and the egg. The SoCon is historically a one bid conference, and the smaller resource schools aren't usually the ones going to the Big Dance. If football is their primary goal, then they are hoping upon hope they get lucky every once in a while and win the conference tournament, but the fact is they haven't. Sorry, but VMI and The Citadel are not going to win the SoCon tournament or bring an at-large bid. Honestly, the SoCon would be better off if those two school played basketball in a different conference.

In the last 21 years, here are the schools that won the tournament and went to the Big Dance. The SoCon hasn't had an at-large bid in at least 21 years.

Davidson - 6
Wofford - 5
ETSU - 4
UNCG - 3
Chattanooga - 3

Wofford had most of their success since Davidson left, but no other schools have emerged and their coach left. UNCG lost their coach as well. This means that 6 of the 10 schools in the SoCon haven't been to the NCAA tournament in 21 years. So the money they get from NCAA shares is a small piece of the pie, earned by other schools.

An NCAA share was worth about $279,000 in 2020. If that were distributed equally in the SoCon, that would be $27,900 per school, per year for six years. With 10 schools, adding 2 schools would lower that to $23,250 per school. But NCAA shares aren't distributed equally in the SoCon, so that figure is even less for those who haven't gone to the tournament. Wofford did win their opening round game, so that figure is doubled for six years. Still not significant.

The key to ANY conference seeing a significant amount of revenue from NCAA tournament appearances, is for your conference to have multiple bids on a regular basis. And those multiple bids also make the odds of winning opening round games, or more, much more likely and getting even more shares.

The CAA actually had several years of multiple bids AND multiple wins in the NCAA tournament. The SoCon just lost their two best coaches this past year and they never got at-large bids in the NCAA. UNCG has the capability for continued success due to their size and location, but Wofford doesn't.

UNCW and CofC give the SoCon a much better chance of doubling the NCAA shares, and moving the conference to multiple bids on a somewhat regular basis What you are discussing is a conference fighting over wins they haven't gotten and aren't getting.

BUT, I could seriously picture UNCW agreeing to add football to gain entrance, and this discussion would be moot. I doubt CofC would add football, so I could see UNCW and Elon back in the SoCon, or maybe UNCW and William and Mary.

Membership of UNCW and CoC isn't resulting in multi-bids for the CAA. Membership of UNCW and CoC in the SOCON won't result in multi-bids for that league. It would result in smaller pie slices for existing members from the allocation of funds from their single bid.

Mid-major multi-bids below A-10 level are now safely consigned to unicorn status. Anything VCU, George Mason, and ODU achieved in the past as CAA members is irrelevant for present and future CAA members.

It's too hard to schedule/find signature winds. And league parity at mid and top levels results in what the selection committee deems "resume deflating" losses.
09-20-2021 06:57 AM
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Post: #58
RE: UNCW and and the CAA
(09-20-2021 06:57 AM)Florida tribe fan Wrote:  
(09-19-2021 09:06 PM)82hawk Wrote:  
(09-19-2021 08:11 PM)Florida tribe fan Wrote:  
(09-19-2021 02:40 PM)82hawk Wrote:  [quote='geezerhawkdad' pid='17654883' dateline='1632065785']
The SoCon may expand, but don't look for CofC to join anytime soon. There were bad feelings between the conference and school when they broke up. CofC said some nasty things about the conference.

The Southern stumbled upon a 10 member conference when they had the mass defections in the mid-'10s. 9 is the best number for football because every football member can play every other member annually and everyone has 4 conference home games. The number works well for basketball because everyone plays everyone else twice. If UNCG ever left, they'd be replaced by another non-football school.

A smaller conference means a larger NCAA basketball tournament share for each team.

Elon moved to the CAA because much of their student body comes from the mid-atlantic. If JMU exits the CAA, Elon will move up in the standings and have a better chance of making the playoffs.

One argument in favor of Elon and CofC returning to the SoCon is the conference's history. Schools that leave or are kicked out tend to return. VMI, ETSU, and Davidson left and returned.

The NCAA shares from tournament appearances doesn't change drastically with two more schools. The possibility for multiple NCAA bids outweighs that cost. Adding two schools that aren't just basketball only, but committed to and capable of success in basketball, certainly has a greater upside than downside for the SoCon. The addition of UNCW and CofC would also increase attendance across the board with rivalries in the Carolinas from pretty big schools with pretty large alumni bases.

UNCG is by far the biggest school in the conference with just at 20,000 students. Five of the ten schools have less than 6,000 students.

UNCW - right at 18,000 and growing dramatically.
CofC - 9,300

UNCW would be the second biggest school in the conference and closing in on UNCG, and CofC would be the fifth largest in the conference. And most importantly, both of those schools would make basketball much stronger.

With all the expanding and movement in conferences, UNCW and CofC represent good schools in the footprint of the conference, which represents a better chance for long term stability. If UNCW gets in a conference with UNCG, WCU and CofC, there is really no reason to move in the future. We could likely add FCS football if we like. Then our only other reason to move out of the SoCon is if we went FBS.

It's really a win/win for the conference and UNCW and Cofc.
[/quote

Why would the small enrollment schools funding FCS football in a one bid basketball conference want to add larger enrollment schools to their conference that aren’t funding FCS football? Seems like they’d be putting their basketball programs at a perpetual resource disadvantage.

It's the chicken and the egg. The SoCon is historically a one bid conference, and the smaller resource schools aren't usually the ones going to the Big Dance. If football is their primary goal, then they are hoping upon hope they get lucky every once in a while and win the conference tournament, but the fact is they haven't. Sorry, but VMI and The Citadel are not going to win the SoCon tournament or bring an at-large bid. Honestly, the SoCon would be better off if those two school played basketball in a different conference.

In the last 21 years, here are the schools that won the tournament and went to the Big Dance. The SoCon hasn't had an at-large bid in at least 21 years.

Davidson - 6
Wofford - 5
ETSU - 4
UNCG - 3
Chattanooga - 3

Wofford had most of their success since Davidson left, but no other schools have emerged and their coach left. UNCG lost their coach as well. This means that 6 of the 10 schools in the SoCon haven't been to the NCAA tournament in 21 years. So the money they get from NCAA shares is a small piece of the pie, earned by other schools.

An NCAA share was worth about $279,000 in 2020. If that were distributed equally in the SoCon, that would be $27,900 per school, per year for six years. With 10 schools, adding 2 schools would lower that to $23,250 per school. But NCAA shares aren't distributed equally in the SoCon, so that figure is even less for those who haven't gone to the tournament. Wofford did win their opening round game, so that figure is doubled for six years. Still not significant.

The key to ANY conference seeing a significant amount of revenue from NCAA tournament appearances, is for your conference to have multiple bids on a regular basis. And those multiple bids also make the odds of winning opening round games, or more, much more likely and getting even more shares.

The CAA actually had several years of multiple bids AND multiple wins in the NCAA tournament. The SoCon just lost their two best coaches this past year and they never got at-large bids in the NCAA. UNCG has the capability for continued success due to their size and location, but Wofford doesn't.

UNCW and CofC give the SoCon a much better chance of doubling the NCAA shares, and moving the conference to multiple bids on a somewhat regular basis What you are discussing is a conference fighting over wins they haven't gotten and aren't getting.

BUT, I could seriously picture UNCW agreeing to add football to gain entrance, and this discussion would be moot. I doubt CofC would add football, so I could see UNCW and Elon back in the SoCon, or maybe UNCW and William and Mary.

Membership of UNCW and CoC isn't resulting in multi-bids for the CAA. Membership of UNCW and CoC in the SOCON won't result in multi-bids for that league. It would result in smaller pie slices for existing members from the allocation of funds from their single bid.

Mid-major multi-bids below A-10 level are now safely consigned to unicorn status. Anything VCU, George Mason, and ODU achieved in the past as CAA members is irrelevant for present and future CAA members.

It's too hard to schedule/find signature winds. And league parity at mid and top levels results in what the selection committee deems "resume deflating" losses.


UNCW has done it's part, and so has CofC, by winning conference championships and tournaments. Especially UNCW. We just haven't had several schools peak at the same time. But if you approach this with the idea your conference will never get at-large bids, it won't. So you then begin to build mediocrity on purpose, hoping to secure that one bid based on a weak conference and a chance to win your tournament. If that's the case, why does a conference concern itself with winning at all, in any sport. After all SOMEONE is going to win the conference tournament no matter how bad all the teams are and SOMEONE is going to go to the NCAA tournament.

What you are suggesting is a plan for mediocrity and failure. The only reason the CAA stopped getting multiple bids was due to really bad distribution of tournament share money. A system that was built on rewarding mediocrity by taking from the winners and giving to the losers, supposedly to help build up the losers. VCU and GMU bailed for 75% of share revenue instead of giving it mediocre schools.

Attract successful basketball schools who have shown a long term commitment to success, reward them financially when they succeed, and you will build a multi bid conference.
09-20-2021 07:34 AM
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Seahawk Nation 08 Offline
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Post: #59
RE: UNCW and and the CAA
League affiliation only plays a small role in getting multiple bids unless the league is so inept it hurts you rather than having a neutral impact (like the CAA does). You really have to have a special season, regardless of which mid-major league you're in, to get an at-large bid. Especially now that NIL and transfer portal rules help P5's more than ever before.

I definitely don't want to think small either, and do not only want but EXPECT to get back to the place we were in in 2006 and even under Keatts where we were a legit threat for an at-large bid with just 1-2 more quality wins. But it doesn't matter to me much which league we try to do that as long as its not the CAA.

The A-Sun and SoCon both intrigue me because they tend to be quality baseball conferences. If Charleston balks at the SoCon and we can bring them along with us to the A-Sun we'll have them and Liberty as good rivals in baseball. And the SoCon would offer even better matchups there. But I'd gladly settle for the Big South.
(This post was last modified: 09-20-2021 09:37 PM by Seahawk Nation 08.)
09-20-2021 02:20 PM
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Post: #60
RE: UNCW and and the CAA
(09-20-2021 02:20 PM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  League affiliation only plays a small role in getting multiple bids unless the league is so inept it hurts you rather than having a neutral impact (like the CAA does). You really have to have a special season, regardless of which mid-major league you're in, to get an at-large bid. Especially now that NIL and transfer portal rules help P5's more than ever before.

I definitely don't want to think small either, and do not only want but EXPECT to get back to the place we were in in 2006 and even under Keatts where we were a legit threat for an at-large bid with just 1-2 more quality wins. But it doesn't matter to me much which league we try to do that as long as its not the CAA.

The A-Sun and SoCon both intrigue me because they tend to be quality baseball conferences. If Charleston balks at the SoCon and we can being along with us to the A-Sun we'll have them and Liberty as good rivals in baseball. And the SoCon would offer even better matchups there. But I'd gladly settle for the Big South.

There is nothing about the Big South that appeals to me at all. ASUN possibly, but Liberty isn't long for that conference. They still have a bad mix of small private schools and larger publics. They already have E/W divisions with six teams in each. It is interesting that UNCW just competed with Jacksonville in a volleyball tournament.
(This post was last modified: 09-20-2021 07:40 PM by 82hawk.)
09-20-2021 03:20 PM
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