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SEC EXPANSION
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Buc76 Offline
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Post: #141
RE: SEC EXPANSION
66-You post about your 'dream conference' and then you post, IMO, all the reasons why you think it would be impossible to fund and a bad move for ETSU to aspire to the same levels of your 'dream conference'. Most of your reasons center about money or attendance figures.

You cannot sell a item without first producing said item. To produce that item you build a facility, hire workers and market the item. If it's an item that people want they will buy it. If it satisfies and fulfills the people they will continue to buy more until something else comes along that does a better job than their current item. Simple business procedure that every successful business employs.

When ETSU university grows in enrollment, they receive more funds from the state and more money from students. That in turn causes a ripple effect for the surrounding area. More money flowing to current businesses, more new businesses, more jobs, more growth in overall population, everything moves to a higher level when more people become in involved.

Can you imagine what an additional 4-6,000 students, spending their monies and the monies of their families and friends would do for the ETSU, Johnson City and surrounding area?

Can you imagine how much money would be spent in Johnson City on 6-7 weekends with 15,000-25000 attending a football game or 5000-6000 for 16 basketball games. It would be, as the AD at ODU said to the media, after moving to the Sunbelt, "we hit the lottery'.

Your idea that it would cost ETSU more to move to FBS is entirely correct but nowhere near the amounts you suggested. Unfortunately you discount all the benefits that ETSU and surrounding area would reap. Your assessments are all money costs, not return on investment. This is the problem with being so conservative. You don't keep up with times and when you do have to spend to improve, it costs way more to improve. To catch up, in many cases, can't be done, to far behind.

The previous administration followed your line of thinking. What was the result? Very minimal growth, lack of student, business and fan support. I cannot think of one peer Institution that had not surpassed ETSU. Dr Noland and his staff have worked valiantly to improve ETSU on all fronts. Their efforts are so visible and rewarding. The students have become involved, businesses and fans have become involved. The highly successful basketball program, under Forbes and staff and the reboot of football have put ETSU in a much, much better light and have complemented the successful efforts of revitalizing Johnson City, especially the downtown area.

Why have they taken interest? IMO, they were provided items they wanted. They have and will invest in items they want as long as the item is viable to them.

Droping football was a terrible and costly mistake. The public was told that the University was losing 1 million dollars per year, yet without football, the Athletic Department budget increased the very next year. Another case of small thinking and using costs to thwart progress.

The marching band is a perfect example of destroying growth. For 12 years no football, no band. The Marching Bucs are approx 300 strong and are held in high regard. That 300 brings additional students ( girl friends, boy friends,
friends ). Their parents, relatives and friends come to the football, basketball games and musical events. How much money in tuition and everyday spending does the Marching Bucs provide ETSU and Johnson City, a lot.

For comparison, I looked up several of our peer Institutions that have much the same type of environment and surrounding population. All of the instructions, except for ETSU had highly successful football programs. There are similar results at other peer institutions but I used ones that most people would be very familiar with.

1987 Enrollments. 2021 Enrollments

JMU. 10,000. 30,000
GA Southern 11,000. 26,000
APP STATE ..11,000. 21,000
ETSU. 10,000. 14,000

I didn't spend much time researching and double checking the above numbers but feel free to correct/update.

You can't put the cart in front of the horse.

Build it, Win....the recipe for success, growth, support and money.

Get to ETSU early this Sat, its Homecoming. Be a Buc tailgater, enjoy all the pregame activities. See and hear the fantastic Marching Bucs pregame and halftime shows.and yell like crazy for the Bucs. Make it so loud that VMI can't hear or think. This game is for a playoff spot and first place in conference. Turn Greene Stadium into a homefield frenzy

GO BUCS
11-04-2021 05:11 PM
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Buc66 Offline
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Post: #142
RE: SEC EXPANSION
(11-04-2021 05:11 PM)Buc76 Wrote:  66-You post about your 'dream conference' and then you post, IMO, all the reasons why you think it would be impossible to fund and a bad move for ETSU to aspire to the same levels of your 'dream conference'. Most of your reasons center about money or attendance figures.

You cannot sell a item without first producing said item. To produce that item you build a facility, hire workers and market the item. If it's an item that people want they will buy it. If it satisfies and fulfills the people they will continue to buy more until something else comes along that does a better job than their current item. Simple business procedure that every successful business employs.

When ETSU university grows in enrollment, they receive more funds from the state and more money from students. That in turn causes a ripple effect for the surrounding area. More money flowing to current businesses, more new businesses, more jobs, more growth in overall population, everything moves to a higher level when more people become in involved.

Can you imagine what an additional 4-6,000 students, spending their monies and the monies of their families and friends would do for the ETSU, Johnson City and surrounding area?

Can you imagine how much money would be spent in Johnson City on 6-7 weekends with 15,000-25000 attending a football game or 5000-6000 for 16 basketball games. It would be, as the AD at ODU said to the media, after moving to the Sunbelt, "we hit the lottery'.

Your idea that it would cost ETSU more to move to FBS is entirely correct but nowhere near the amounts you suggested. Unfortunately you discount all the benefits that ETSU and surrounding area would reap. Your assessments are all money costs, not return on investment. This is the problem with being so conservative. You don't keep up with times and when you do have to spend to improve, it costs way more to improve. To catch up, in many cases, can't be done, to far behind.

The previous administration followed your line of thinking. What was the result? Very minimal growth, lack of student, business and fan support. I cannot think of one peer Institution that had not surpassed ETSU. Dr Noland and his staff have worked valiantly to improve ETSU on all fronts. Their efforts are so visible and rewarding. The students have become involved, businesses and fans have become involved. The highly successful basketball program, under Forbes and staff and the reboot of football have put ETSU in a much, much better light and have complemented the successful efforts of revitalizing Johnson City, especially the downtown area.

Why have they taken interest? IMO, they were provided items they wanted. They have and will invest in items they want as long as the item is viable to them.

Droping football was a terrible and costly mistake. The public was told that the University was losing 1 million dollars per year, yet without football, the Athletic Department budget increased the very next year. Another case of small thinking and using costs to thwart progress.

The marching band is a perfect example of destroying growth. For 12 years no football, no band. The Marching Bucs are approx 300 strong and are held in high regard. That 300 brings additional students ( girl friends, boy friends,
friends ). Their parents, relatives and friends come to the football, basketball games and musical events. How much money in tuition and everyday spending does the Marching Bucs provide ETSU and Johnson City, a lot.

For comparison, I looked up several of our peer Institutions that have much the same type of environment and surrounding population. All of the instructions, except for ETSU had highly successful football programs. There are similar results at other peer institutions but I used ones that most people would be very familiar with.

1987 Enrollments. 2021 Enrollments

JMU. 10,000. 30,000
GA Southern 11,000. 26,000
APP STATE ..11,000. 21,000
ETSU. 10,000. 14,000

I didn't spend much time researching and double checking the above numbers but feel free to correct/update.

You can't put the cart in front of the horse.

Build it, Win....the recipe for success, growth, support and money.

Get to ETSU early this Sat, its Homecoming. Be a Buc tailgater, enjoy all the pregame activities. See and hear the fantastic Marching Bucs pregame and halftime shows.and yell like crazy for the Bucs. Make it so loud that VMI can't hear or think. This game is for a playoff spot and first place in conference. Turn Greene Stadium into a homefield frenzy

GO BUCS

Yes 76 — GO BUCS! Going back and forth here is sorta comical. But, viewing this LA (7-1) and Ga State (4-4) game on ESPN now (11/4, 8:15 pm), this La 41,000 seat stadium is at least 80% empty bringing me back to this attendance thing at this next second tier FBS level. The actual attendance at the two MAC games last evening looked about the same. I’m still not arguing against ETSU moving up IF the MONEY is there on the table. What I am against is all the costly BULL, deception, and trickery with relation to the wildly exaggerated difference between FCS ball and second tier FBS ball. As far as the game on the field, SoCon games vs MAC or Sun Belt games are every bit as entertaining. Of course, I want us to be playing and beating the hell out of App St, Marshall, Ga Southern, James Madison, et al. in front of 25,000 actual fans. But again — GO BUCS.
11-04-2021 07:44 PM
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bucfan81 Offline
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Post: #143
RE: SEC EXPANSION
(11-04-2021 07:44 PM)Buc66 Wrote:  
(11-04-2021 05:11 PM)Buc76 Wrote:  66-You post about your 'dream conference' and then you post, IMO, all the reasons why you think it would be impossible to fund and a bad move for ETSU to aspire to the same levels of your 'dream conference'. Most of your reasons center about money or attendance figures.

You cannot sell a item without first producing said item. To produce that item you build a facility, hire workers and market the item. If it's an item that people want they will buy it. If it satisfies and fulfills the people they will continue to buy more until something else comes along that does a better job than their current item. Simple business procedure that every successful business employs.

When ETSU university grows in enrollment, they receive more funds from the state and more money from students. That in turn causes a ripple effect for the surrounding area. More money flowing to current businesses, more new businesses, more jobs, more growth in overall population, everything moves to a higher level when more people become in involved.

Can you imagine what an additional 4-6,000 students, spending their monies and the monies of their families and friends would do for the ETSU, Johnson City and surrounding area?

Can you imagine how much money would be spent in Johnson City on 6-7 weekends with 15,000-25000 attending a football game or 5000-6000 for 16 basketball games. It would be, as the AD at ODU said to the media, after moving to the Sunbelt, "we hit the lottery'.

Your idea that it would cost ETSU more to move to FBS is entirely correct but nowhere near the amounts you suggested. Unfortunately you discount all the benefits that ETSU and surrounding area would reap. Your assessments are all money costs, not return on investment. This is the problem with being so conservative. You don't keep up with times and when you do have to spend to improve, it costs way more to improve. To catch up, in many cases, can't be done, to far behind.

The previous administration followed your line of thinking. What was the result? Very minimal growth, lack of student, business and fan support. I cannot think of one peer Institution that had not surpassed ETSU. Dr Noland and his staff have worked valiantly to improve ETSU on all fronts. Their efforts are so visible and rewarding. The students have become involved, businesses and fans have become involved. The highly successful basketball program, under Forbes and staff and the reboot of football have put ETSU in a much, much better light and have complemented the successful efforts of revitalizing Johnson City, especially the downtown area.

Why have they taken interest? IMO, they were provided items they wanted. They have and will invest in items they want as long as the item is viable to them.

Droping football was a terrible and costly mistake. The public was told that the University was losing 1 million dollars per year, yet without football, the Athletic Department budget increased the very next year. Another case of small thinking and using costs to thwart progress.

The marching band is a perfect example of destroying growth. For 12 years no football, no band. The Marching Bucs are approx 300 strong and are held in high regard. That 300 brings additional students ( girl friends, boy friends,
friends ). Their parents, relatives and friends come to the football, basketball games and musical events. How much money in tuition and everyday spending does the Marching Bucs provide ETSU and Johnson City, a lot.

For comparison, I looked up several of our peer Institutions that have much the same type of environment and surrounding population. All of the instructions, except for ETSU had highly successful football programs. There are similar results at other peer institutions but I used ones that most people would be very familiar with.

1987 Enrollments. 2021 Enrollments

JMU. 10,000. 30,000
GA Southern 11,000. 26,000
APP STATE ..11,000. 21,000
ETSU. 10,000. 14,000

I didn't spend much time researching and double checking the above numbers but feel free to correct/update.

You can't put the cart in front of the horse.

Build it, Win....the recipe for success, growth, support and money.

Get to ETSU early this Sat, its Homecoming. Be a Buc tailgater, enjoy all the pregame activities. See and hear the fantastic Marching Bucs pregame and halftime shows.and yell like crazy for the Bucs. Make it so loud that VMI can't hear or think. This game is for a playoff spot and first place in conference. Turn Greene Stadium into a homefield frenzy

GO BUCS

Yes 76 — GO BUCS! Going back and forth here is sorta comical. But, viewing this LA (7-1) and Ga State (4-4) game on ESPN now (11/4, 8:15 pm), this La 41,000 seat stadium is at least 80% empty bringing me back to this attendance thing at this next second tier FBS level. The actual attendance at the two MAC games last evening looked about the same. I’m still not arguing against ETSU moving up IF the MONEY is there on the table. What I am against is all the costly BULL, deception, and trickery with relation to the wildly exaggerated difference between FCS ball and second tier FBS ball. As far as the game on the field, SoCon games vs MAC or Sun Belt games are every bit as entertaining. Of course, I want us to be playing and beating the hell out of App St, Marshall, Ga Southern, James Madison, et al. in front of 25,000 actual fans. But again — GO BUCS.

I think one of the important points is being shown tonight by the GSU-UL game. It also explains why the MAC games on Tuesday and Wednesday were played before small attendance and that is because television revenue is now the driving force and it trumps in person fans. These teams make money by being on tv that is greater than ticket sales. It would be nice to have sold out crowds to see the games but tv is the reason those schools can afford FBS expenses and are doing well using that formula.
11-04-2021 08:32 PM
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Buc76 Offline
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Post: #144
RE: SEC EXPANSION
If moving from FCS to FBS results in losing money, why haven't the Presidents and ADs been fired for such a stupid decision? Why have highly successful FCS Institutions left FCS to join FBS conferences in the last two weeks and more trying to move to FBS?

As far as FCS football being as entertaining as lower level FBS, there is a big difference in quality of play and the in person game experience is far better. There are some exceptions but many of those schools are now in the process of moving to FBS. They have outgrown FCS and want to go to greener pastures.

GO BUCS
11-05-2021 12:40 AM
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Post: #145
RE: SEC EXPANSION
Hmmmm................... So very curious. paulie said, in 1996 (see my post above) that ETSU should have 18,000 students "within 10 years" - which would have been 2006. That JC Press story from Sept. 17, 2021 posted above by Buc66 says that "ETSU aims to grow enrollment to 18,000 students by 2036". That's a THIRTY YEAR difference of opinion!
11-05-2021 02:28 AM
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etsubuc Offline
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Post: #146
RE: SEC EXPANSION
The Georgia St./UL game last night was played on National TV with a Louisiana team that has only lost one game this season, and yet the Louisiana stadium was only a third full. Doesn’t sound like a great home environment to me, and this is all for a chance to play in a bad bowl game against a MAC or WAC type of team with almost no fans in the stadium. I don’t understand the appeal.
11-05-2021 05:08 AM
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Buc66 Offline
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Post: #147
RE: SEC EXPANSION
(11-05-2021 05:08 AM)etsubuc Wrote:  The Georgia St./UL game last night was played on National TV with a Louisiana team that has only lost one game this season, and yet the Louisiana stadium was only a third full. Doesn’t sound like a great home environment to me, and this is all for a chance to play in a bad bowl game against a MAC or WAC type of team with almost no fans in the stadium. I don’t understand the appeal.

That’s what I’ve been attempting to say — it leaves me scratching my head. If La and the Sun Belt are making all this money off these TV games, then why is it that student fees make up 62% of the La athletic budget and an average of 66% of all Sun Belt athletic budgets? And, if mid-week TV games are looked at for public relations, then how does this La 41,000 seat stadium that is 75% empty help La and the Sun Belt? This game was for the Sun Belt Conference western division title. If this thing was what it is jacked up to be — they should have had at least 25-30,000 actual people there, loud, excited, and showing the importance of a Sun Belt title game. They reported 16,007 in attendance in order to, of course, satisfy the NCAA. Again — I wish ETSU could be playing and regularly beating what will be these new Sun Belt eastern division schools in a 25,000 seat stadium full of actual fans, and on TV with a growing enrollment to that 18,000 mark and beyond. But, as college football attendance and college enrollment continue to decline — ETSU enrollment down from 14,608 in 2017 to 13,120 in 2021 —- I’m scratching my head.

Prior to this title game - the La athletic director said what he’s paid to say. But, as was obviously evident, reality, which can be real ugly, did mot match his words. He said — On how attendance impacts the Ragin' Cajuns name brand:

"It continues to elevate it--not just the name brand, but the university as a whole. That's what I keep telling people. Athletics is merely a vehicle to elevate the profile of the entire university. We have a great university in southern Louisiana right here. You can use that opportunity to grow your enrollment. That generates revenue for the university as a whole. When you do that, you're able to attract even better faculty than you already have. Then you can grow your academic programs. It elevates the profile of the whole institution, but it also elevates the profile of Lafayette, Louisiana--the community and the region. When people see that this is a thriving football program--you can look at Alabama, you can look at other schools that have had that experience, and the sport of football was one vehicle that helped elevate the entire university and the community."
(This post was last modified: 11-05-2021 08:47 AM by Buc66.)
11-05-2021 07:54 AM
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etsuBucsFan1988 Offline
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Post: #148
RE: SEC EXPANSION
I have changed my thinking of the SoCon over the years. The SoCon has grown into a respectable football and basketball conference. Yes it's still 1AA, FCS, mid-major, whatever you want to call it. But I just think we are a ways out before we can think about moving. I would first rather see the SoCon add more schools (i.e., good FB/BB teams), but who that might be I have no idea at the moment. Anyway let's see if we can keep up the winning ways in football and attendance, men's basketball, and hopefully the women's basketball and the other non-rev sports. If we are still successful in all these sports (at least the FB and MBB) over the next few years, look at how ETSU's enrollment is growing/shrinking, then maybe we explore a move up. The college landscape is constantly changing. It's getting to where I have to Google a school to see what conference they are in now.
11-05-2021 08:49 AM
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Buc76 Offline
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Post: #149
RE: SEC EXPANSION
Small thinking equals small results. Waiting years to see what happens is exactly what ETSU has done. Yes, the Socon is stable today. Why? Because the Institutions that wanted to grow Academics, Athletics and population left to join conferences that provided those opportunities. The SoCon now consists of small, private institutions, two military schools and institutions that don't support or offer all the sports that are required by FBS conferences. Being small or private doesn't mean that these Institutions are not excellent educators, they definently are, but they offer no growth. The only Institutions that could be added are small. They can't raise the profile or cause the current SoCon members to grow. The one thing that adding 2, 3 or 4 members would do is conference schedules would take the pressure off trying to schedule home games.

IMO, if ETSU stays the current course, their chances to move to FBS or a better FCS conference is at most minimal. The list of excellent, growing Institutions that aspire to have FBS/high level FCS programs are rapidly disappearing. The few that are left[/align] will fill the conferences openings as has been done in the last few weeks.

GO BUCS
11-05-2021 11:05 AM
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posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Offline
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Post: #150
RE: SEC EXPANSION
(11-05-2021 11:05 AM)Buc76 Wrote:  Small thinking equals small results. Waiting years to see what happens is exactly what ETSU has done.

IMO, if ETSU stays the current course, their chances to move to FBS or a better FCS conference is at most minimal. The list of excellent, growing Institutions that aspire to have FBS/high level FCS programs are rapidly disappearing. The few that are left[/align] will fill the conferences openings as has been done in the last few weeks.

GO BUCS

There will be plenty of chances to move up. Remember.................paulie told us all kinds of other schools will be dropping football -- so there will be openings. 03-lmfao03-banghead03-banghead03-banghead
11-05-2021 01:00 PM
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Buc66 Offline
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Post: #151
RE: SEC EXPANSION
(11-05-2021 01:00 PM)posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  
(11-05-2021 11:05 AM)Buc76 Wrote:  Small thinking equals small results. Waiting years to see what happens is exactly what ETSU has done.

IMO, if ETSU stays the current course, their chances to move to FBS or a better FCS conference is at most minimal. The list of excellent, growing Institutions that aspire to have FBS/high level FCS programs are rapidly disappearing. The few that are left[/align] will fill the conferences openings as has been done in the last few weeks.

GO BUCS

There will be plenty of chances to move up. Remember.................paulie told us all kinds of other schools will be dropping football -- so there will be openings. 03-lmfao03-banghead03-banghead03-banghead

I’m not sure this current model for NCAA Division I (FBS & FCS) football is sustainable given the fact that the Power Five people continue to consolidate the MONEY. Unless they reverse this trajectory and actually start sharing the TV wealth - this second tier of FBS ball will have to face the reality of assessing whether paying-to-pay at this level that is underwritten with mostly STUDENT FEES is financially feasible. Again, I not against ETSU “moving up”. It could end up just moving when this NCAA model undergoes a major overhaul.
11-05-2021 01:19 PM
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Buc76 Offline
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Post: #152
RE: SEC EXPANSION
Since most of the posters want to give all the reasons why ETSU shouldn't try to move up to a FBS conference. The foremost reason posted is money. You are fixated on costs while totally neglecting the benefits. So I thought I would give you a cost that you haven't mentioned. The cost to ETSU playing a FCS playoff game. ETSU has to foot the bill whether the game is at Greene Stadium or on the road. This is why teams try so hard to get a first round game at home. The costs to play a couple of games or make a deep run in the FCS playoffs would be in the neighborhood of $150,000-$200,000 for a couple of games, $400,000-$500,000 for 3-4 games depending having to fly or Bus. That's a great reward for winning a conference or selected to participate in the FCS playoffs.
11-05-2021 11:14 PM
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Post: #153
RE: SEC EXPANSION
Will UTC be next along with Eastern Kentucky? They certainly have the facilities.


https://www.cbssports.com/college-footba...ent-moves/
(This post was last modified: 11-06-2021 11:19 AM by Buc66.)
11-06-2021 11:01 AM
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Post: #154
RE: SEC EXPANSION
I don't *think* this has been posted before (pardon me if it has), but apparently the SoCon has been in some rather serious talks with Richmond, and maybe others. It may be just for football, tho. This idea that some of the southern tier of the CAA may be getting antsy *may* have some legs. C of C Saviors may want back for hoops and cheaper travel - even if the SoCon no longer needs saving. This info is third-hand, so admittedly on shaky ground, but the second-hand source is pretty well connected. Other suggestions that W&M and Elon may also be interested are not new, nor do I have any new info on those conceptualizations.
11-07-2021 12:16 AM
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Buc66 Offline
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RE: SEC EXPANSION
(11-07-2021 12:16 AM)posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  I don't *think* this has been posted before (pardon me if it has), but apparently the SoCon has been in some rather serious talks with Richmond, and maybe others. It may be just for football, tho. This idea that some of the southern tier of the CAA may be getting antsy *may* have some legs. C of C Saviors may want back for hoops and cheaper travel - even if the SoCon no longer needs saving. This info is third-hand, so admittedly on shaky ground, but the second-hand source is pretty well connected. Other suggestions that W&M and Elon may also be interested are not new, nor do I have any new info on those conceptualizations.

CAA not real happy with JMU. Looking closer at CAA, it’s not an all-sports conference. It’s a rather strange conglomeration. But, what you say makes sense on a number of levels. Let bygones be bygones and bring back some of the historic SoCon look.


https://www.si.com/college/2021/11/05/ja...gnment-caa


Or, will SoCon schools look to move to the CAA?

https://richmond.com/sports/college/vmi-...1f0c6.html
(This post was last modified: 11-07-2021 12:34 PM by Buc66.)
11-07-2021 08:53 AM
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RE: SEC EXPANSION
MTSU to remain in C-USA
11-10-2021 11:00 AM
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Buc66 Offline
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RE: SEC EXPANSION
(11-10-2021 11:00 AM)Stateman Wrote:  MTSU to remain in C-USA



https://www.dnj.com/story/sports/college...368402001/
11-10-2021 11:26 AM
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Post: #158
RE: SEC EXPANSION
(11-10-2021 11:26 AM)Buc66 Wrote:  
(11-10-2021 11:00 AM)Stateman Wrote:  MTSU to remain in C-USA



https://www.dnj.com/story/sports/college...368402001/

The correct decision. MTSU has nothing in common with that conference footprint.

BTW here is a neat map showing all Div 1 schools in the US in Google Maps. I assume it is up to date, and maybe gets updated (which might be a chore)

Div1 Map

Also...Western KY staying in C-USA as well.
(This post was last modified: 11-10-2021 07:44 PM by etsuBucsFan1988.)
11-10-2021 05:06 PM
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Buc66 Offline
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Post: #159
RE: SEC EXPANSION
(11-10-2021 05:06 PM)etsuBucsFan1988 Wrote:  
(11-10-2021 11:26 AM)Buc66 Wrote:  
(11-10-2021 11:00 AM)Stateman Wrote:  MTSU to remain in C-USA



https://www.dnj.com/story/sports/college...368402001/

The correct decision. MTSU has nothing in common with that conference footprint.

BTW here is a neat map showing all Div 1 schools in the US in Google Maps. I assume it is up to date, and maybe gets updated (which might be a chore)

Div1 Map

Also...Western KY staying in C-USA as well.



https://www.cbssports.com/college-footba...rence-usa/
11-10-2021 09:17 PM
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Buc'ed_Up Offline
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Post: #160
RE: SEC EXPANSION
Not football related but a step up for Loyola Chicago. They are moving from the Missouri Valley to Atlantic 10

Horizon League -> Missouri Valley -> Atlantic 10
11-17-2021 02:35 PM
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