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SEC EXPANSION
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Buc66 Offline
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Post: #61
RE: SEC EXPANSION
(09-24-2021 05:18 PM)BucDoctor Wrote:  
(09-18-2021 11:12 PM)Buc76 Wrote:  Follow what money?

Sunbelt and Conference USA schools get approximately $500,000 per year in TV revenue including all sports. American Athletic conference schools each get $7 million, ACC schools get $26.6 million, and SEC schools get $68 million each. Once the P5s grow their membership and renegotiate TV deals, the remaining money left for the BCS non-P5 schools will be even more minuscule.

Why spend tens of millions to chase a couple hundred thousand? That is the evolving landscape. It has changed and is not what it use to be. I don't like it, but it is what it is.

So, if we can schedule a Power 5 football opponent each year, we can make about as much off that as the Sunbelt and CUSA pay their schools from their TV deals which could be decreasing as the Power 5 (maybe 4) consolidate the money? And, as that Power 5 money grows, those outsiders called Division I FBS programs will continue trying to gain fame through association by being forced to subsidize their programs even more? Does this sound sustainable for the outsiders? Is there a mega reorganization/realignment coming outside the big folks along geographic, etc lines? To me, that would be about the only way for ETSU, which must protect basketball, to make a realistic move “up”. Is there anyone in the SoCon looking to leave or trying to join? It looks like the OVC is being gutted.
09-24-2021 05:59 PM
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Post: #62
RE: SEC EXPANSION
(09-24-2021 05:59 PM)Buc66 Wrote:  
(09-24-2021 05:18 PM)BucDoctor Wrote:  
(09-18-2021 11:12 PM)Buc76 Wrote:  Follow what money?

Sunbelt and Conference USA schools get approximately $500,000 per year in TV revenue including all sports. American Athletic conference schools each get $7 million, ACC schools get $26.6 million, and SEC schools get $68 million each. Once the P5s grow their membership and renegotiate TV deals, the remaining money left for the BCS non-P5 schools will be even more minuscule.

Why spend tens of millions to chase a couple hundred thousand? That is the evolving landscape. It has changed and is not what it use to be. I don't like it, but it is what it is.

So, if we can schedule a Power 5 football opponent each year, we can make about as much off that as the Sunbelt and CUSA pay their schools from their TV deals which could be decreasing as the Power 5 (maybe 4) consolidate the money? And, as that Power 5 money grows, those outsiders called Division I FBS programs will continue trying to gain fame through association by being forced to subsidize their programs even more? Does this sound sustainable for the outsiders? Is there a mega reorganization/realignment coming outside the big folks along geographic, etc lines? To me, that would be about the only way for ETSU, which must protect basketball, to make a realistic move “up”. Is there anyone in the SoCon looking to leave or trying to join? It looks like the OVC is being gutted.

Football drives the entire landscape as we learned during our exile in the A-Sun. As I see it, the FBS schools aren't in nearly the jeopardy as the Sunbelt/Conference USA, etc. BCS schools. Just my opinion.

As to your question about the SoCon and other schools, I have no idea.
09-24-2021 06:15 PM
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Buc66 Offline
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Post: #63
RE: SEC EXPANSION
(09-24-2021 06:15 PM)BucDoctor Wrote:  
(09-24-2021 05:59 PM)Buc66 Wrote:  
(09-24-2021 05:18 PM)BucDoctor Wrote:  
(09-18-2021 11:12 PM)Buc76 Wrote:  Follow what money?

Sunbelt and Conference USA schools get approximately $500,000 per year in TV revenue including all sports. American Athletic conference schools each get $7 million, ACC schools get $26.6 million, and SEC schools get $68 million each. Once the P5s grow their membership and renegotiate TV deals, the remaining money left for the BCS non-P5 schools will be even more minuscule.

Why spend tens of millions to chase a couple hundred thousand? That is the evolving landscape. It has changed and is not what it use to be. I don't like it, but it is what it is.

So, if we can schedule a Power 5 football opponent each year, we can make about as much off that as the Sunbelt and CUSA pay their schools from their TV deals which could be decreasing as the Power 5 (maybe 4) consolidate the money? And, as that Power 5 money grows, those outsiders called Division I FBS programs will continue trying to gain fame through association by being forced to subsidize their programs even more? Does this sound sustainable for the outsiders? Is there a mega reorganization/realignment coming outside the big folks along geographic, etc lines? To me, that would be about the only way for ETSU, which must protect basketball, to make a realistic move “up”. Is there anyone in the SoCon looking to leave or trying to join? It looks like the OVC is being gutted.

Football drives the entire landscape as we learned during our exile in the A-Sun. As I see it, the FBS schools aren't in nearly the jeopardy as the Sunbelt/Conference USA, etc. BCS schools. Just my opinion.

As to your question about the SoCon and other schools, I have no idea.

Going back and reading about the current system, the CFP replaced the BCS in 2014 for the national championship. From there it gets complicated for the average fan as to the mechanics, as you know. But, outside the six bowls involved in the CFP set up, there are 36 otherr invitational bowls (the table scraps bowls) that these other so called Division I FBS schools relish to be part of. I’ve read that some schools lose money playing in these things. But, from that multi-million CFP system, the Group of Five conferences share 27 percent, $18 million per conference. For example, each Sunbelt school receives around $1.5 million. Would $1.5 million be enough for ETSU to look at the Sunbelt, for example? Bigger question — will the big boys keep doing this as they become more independent of the NCAA?

From Wikipedia: The average revenue to the new system over 12 years is to be about $500 million per year. After $125–150 million in expenses, the Power Five conferences split about 71.5 percent of the remaining money, for an approximate average payout of $250 million a year ($50 million per league) over the life of the contract. The "Group of Five" conferences split 27 percent, about $90 million a year ($18 million per league). Notre Dame receives around one percent, about $3.5-4 million, and other FBS independents get about 0.5 percent of the deal.
(This post was last modified: 09-25-2021 09:13 AM by Buc66.)
09-25-2021 08:54 AM
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Buc76 Online
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Post: #64
RE: SEC EXPANSION
P5 money games are going away.

FBS schools will get P5 money games.

ETSU will only get a chance at a Group of 5 or lower FBS money game. Half the payday. This scenario will play out in basketball also.

There will no way ETSU can improve or sustain a robust Atlectic Program with reduced revenues.

The fans and money supporters will not make up the shortfalls.

Greene Stadium is to small to generate enough money to make up the difference in loss of 'big money game'. Basketball will probably be in the same situation.


If ETSU were playing in a FBS conference, ETSU would have a bigger stadium, larger crowds, bigger money games. Basketball would have a much better home schedule and there wouldn't be a big drop off on attendance that happens when teams such as VMI, Samford, Citadel and non conference low to bottom D1 (UNC Upstate ) or worse D2 teams. I'm not looking down or throwing shade at the SoCon or any other lower conference teams. It's just reality.

I constantly read on this board about our poor basketball home schedules, the need for a on campus arena, improvements to Greene Stadium, etc. None of this is possible if ETSU remains in the SoCon. The SoCon has been a good conference to restart football but offers no growth. In my opinion, remaining in the SoCon will signal that ETSU is satisfied with the state of Athletics and to willing to suffer the consequences of reduced budgets which will provide less opportunities for student athletes, university growth and the overall growth of Johnson City and surrounding area.

ETSU is at a crucial point. Either go FBS and have the prospect of improving the overall Athlectic Dept or stay in the SoCon and unfortunately have very limited opportunities to improve their status.
09-25-2021 11:17 AM
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BucDoctor Online
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Post: #65
RE: SEC EXPANSION
(09-25-2021 08:54 AM)Buc66 Wrote:  
(09-24-2021 06:15 PM)BucDoctor Wrote:  
(09-24-2021 05:59 PM)Buc66 Wrote:  
(09-24-2021 05:18 PM)BucDoctor Wrote:  
(09-18-2021 11:12 PM)Buc76 Wrote:  Follow what money?

Sunbelt and Conference USA schools get approximately $500,000 per year in TV revenue including all sports. American Athletic conference schools each get $7 million, ACC schools get $26.6 million, and SEC schools get $68 million each. Once the P5s grow their membership and renegotiate TV deals, the remaining money left for the BCS non-P5 schools will be even more minuscule.

Why spend tens of millions to chase a couple hundred thousand? That is the evolving landscape. It has changed and is not what it use to be. I don't like it, but it is what it is.

So, if we can schedule a Power 5 football opponent each year, we can make about as much off that as the Sunbelt and CUSA pay their schools from their TV deals which could be decreasing as the Power 5 (maybe 4) consolidate the money? And, as that Power 5 money grows, those outsiders called Division I FBS programs will continue trying to gain fame through association by being forced to subsidize their programs even more? Does this sound sustainable for the outsiders? Is there a mega reorganization/realignment coming outside the big folks along geographic, etc lines? To me, that would be about the only way for ETSU, which must protect basketball, to make a realistic move “up”. Is there anyone in the SoCon looking to leave or trying to join? It looks like the OVC is being gutted.

Football drives the entire landscape as we learned during our exile in the A-Sun. As I see it, the FBS schools aren't in nearly the jeopardy as the Sunbelt/Conference USA, etc. BCS schools. Just my opinion.

As to your question about the SoCon and other schools, I have no idea.

Going back and reading about the current system, the CFP replaced the BCS in 2014 for the national championship. From there it gets complicated for the average fan as to the mechanics, as you know. But, outside the six bowls involved in the CFP set up, there are 36 otherr invitational bowls (the table scraps bowls) that these other so called Division I FBS schools relish to be part of. I’ve read that some schools lose money playing in these things. But, from that multi-million CFP system, the Group of Five conferences share 27 percent, $18 million per conference. For example, each Sunbelt school receives around $1.5 million. Would $1.5 million be enough for ETSU to look at the Sunbelt, for example? Bigger question — will the big boys keep doing this as they become more independent of the NCAA?

From Wikipedia: The average revenue to the new system over 12 years is to be about $500 million per year. After $125–150 million in expenses, the Power Five conferences split about 71.5 percent of the remaining money, for an approximate average payout of $250 million a year ($50 million per league) over the life of the contract. The "Group of Five" conferences split 27 percent, about $90 million a year ($18 million per league). Notre Dame receives around one percent, about $3.5-4 million, and other FBS independents get about 0.5 percent of the deal.

I certainly can't speak for ETSU, but the 2019 data (the latest that I could find), Appalachian State spent 38 million in athletics. ETSU spent 23.5 million. So is it worth the additional 2 million in revenue (500k TV plus 1.5 in bowl money) to spend an additional 15 million dollars?

If you look at it per student, ETSU students would have to pay an additional $1162 per year in athletic fees (I believe the current fee is around 450/year). That would fund the ETSU athletic department roughly at the Appalachian State level. I just don't see that happening and the sources of revenue other than students are not stepping up to the plate.

Just my thoughts.
(This post was last modified: 09-25-2021 11:20 AM by BucDoctor.)
09-25-2021 11:19 AM
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Buc76 Online
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Post: #66
RE: SEC EXPANSION
I don't want this thread to be a vehicle for info that gives the impression that ETSU would have to spend 15 million annually to join the Sun Belt, CUSA, etc. This is the same type of 'book keeping' that previous administrations used to taint and destroy our football and marching band programs in 2004.

Using the highest spending program in the Sunbelt and then transfering the difference to increasing student fees by $1000+ is completely false and blatantly misleading.

Every conference whether its FBS, FCS, etc has members that spend differently on their athlectic programs.

Texas, Texas A&M, Ohio State have budgets of 200+ mil

Alabama, Georgia approx 170mil

Tenn approx 150 mil

Miss, Miss St approx 115mil

Anyone think that Alabama, Georgia, Miss, Tenn and all the other SEC, BIG TEN, SunBelt, CUSA, ACC, AAC. CAA schools want to leave their conference because they don't have the highest budget. Figures don't lie. Being successful doesn't depend on biggest budget.

To put info on this board that is read by 1000s of interested, invested Buc fans that indicates huge increases in student fees and terrible returns on investing in a highly successful Athletic Department is a crime.

Any person can tour the present ETSU campus and see the tremendous improvements to all programs, academic and athletics. These changes happened because Dr Noland and his staff substituted 'we can' for 'can't'. On football game days, the campus is alive and bustling as opposed to dead and lifeless with no football program. I could go into the tremendous amounts of money spent by fans, students families and friends that attend the games but I believe anyone can see and understand the impact a successful atlectic program has on the city and surrounding area where its located.

To throw out misleading costs, to throw cold water on improving ETSUs Athletic programs which would provide athletes, students and fans a better product is totally wrong.

Instead of trying to taint the ideas to improve ETSU, IMO, you should do everything you can to implement those ideas.

ETSU can definitely has the resources to compete in the SunBelt, CUSA, etc. and it definitely doesn't cost an additional 15 million and it does not increase student fees by $1000 or more.

People made fun of App State when they went to the SunBelt. They made dire predictions of the impending doom and disaster that would befall their university and their football program. How wrong they were.

HOW ABOUT THEM BUCS
09-26-2021 09:35 AM
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BucDoctor Online
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Post: #67
RE: SEC EXPANSION
"Using the highest spending program in the Sunbelt and then transfering the difference to increasing student fees by $1000+ is completely false and blatantly misleading."

"To put info on this board that is read by 1000s of interested, invested Buc fans that indicates huge increases in student fees and terrible returns on investing in a highly successful Athletic Department is a crime."

Facts are a pesky thing.

There is a strong correlation between athletic spending and athletic success. If you want to spend less in a FBS conference and be less than successful, then so be it. If you want to look at a poor budget and success, look no further than Wake, they can compete in one sport occasionally. Vanderbilt can complete in one sport occasionally. ETSU's athletic budget would be just behind Troy in the Sunbelt. How successful is Troy? If that is successful enough for you, then you and I differ in our definition of success.

I am a huge Bucs fan, my wardrobe is blue and gold. I'd like for ETSU to be in a P-5 conference, but it is what it is. My last post on the topic.
(This post was last modified: 09-26-2021 11:36 AM by BucDoctor.)
09-26-2021 11:26 AM
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Buc66 Offline
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Post: #68
RE: SEC EXPANSION
(09-26-2021 11:26 AM)BucDoctor Wrote:  "Using the highest spending program in the Sunbelt and then transfering the difference to increasing student fees by $1000+ is completely false and blatantly misleading."

"To put info on this board that is read by 1000s of interested, invested Buc fans that indicates huge increases in student fees and terrible returns on investing in a highly successful Athletic Department is a crime."

Facts are a pesky thing.

There is a strong correlation between athletic spending and athletic success. If you want to spend less in a FBS conference and be less than successful, then so be it. If you want to look at a poor budget and success, look no further than Wake, they can compete in one sport occasionally. Vanderbilt can complete in one sport occasionally. ETSU's athletic budget would be just behind Troy in the Sunbelt. How successful is Troy? If that is successful enough for you, then you and I differ in our definition of success.

I am a huge Bucs fan, my wardrobe is blue and gold. I'd like for ETSU to be in a P-5 conference, but it is what it is. My last post on the topic.

I prefer winning as often as possible. We need to build a larger, consistent fan base in football, at least doubling the present one. Only winning can do that given the historic culture. See Marshall, App State, Ga Southern, as examples. My guess, winning and loving it is the key reason James Madison, for example, hasn’t “moved up” , and they’ve certainly built the fan base and have the money to do so.

The only thing I find attractive about the Sun Belt for ETSU athletics right now would be old rivals, App State and GA Southern. But, when the stars align right, I’m certainly in favor of ETSU moving on up. Yea, our budget is close to SBC schools, even exceeds ULM. There you go, how many folks in upper East Tennessee know what school ULM is, for example?

My dream group — ETSU, UTC, JMU, EKU, JMU, ODU, App State, Charlotte, Coastal, GA State, GA Southern, and Mercer or Western to make it 12. But, there’s a long list of objections to that at this juncture, obviously. And, back to reality —- $$$$. Just saying.
(This post was last modified: 09-27-2021 05:37 PM by Buc66.)
09-27-2021 02:04 PM
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Buc76 Online
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Post: #69
RE: SEC EXPANSION
Yes facts are pesky, especially when they are not facts, just your personal opinion.

Belmont, E. Kentucky, Jacksonville State and Austin Peay just left the OVC for greener pastures as they joined the Missouri Valley Conference. They were in the same situation as ETSU is now. They had no future for growth in the OVC. Hats off to the Presidents and ADs to these peer Institutions that found a way to improve their programs.
09-30-2021 09:43 PM
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Post: #70
RE: SEC EXPANSION
(09-30-2021 09:43 PM)Buc76 Wrote:  Yes facts are pesky, especially when they are not facts, just your personal opinion.

Belmont, E. Kentucky, Jacksonville State and Austin Peay just left the OVC for greener pastures as they joined the Missouri Valley Conference. They were in the same situation as ETSU is now. They had no future for growth in the OVC. Hats off to the Presidents and ADs to these peer Institutions that found a way to improve their programs.

Uh, just to be clear, the other teams you list, aside from Belmont, are going to the ASUN. That may or may not be a greener pasture (remains to be seen), but it's certainly not the MVC. One of those "pesky facts".
10-01-2021 02:42 AM
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Post: #71
RE: SEC EXPANSION
Good correction. Just left out the line for the ASUN.

Belmont's move will give the MVC a better chance to be a two bid league for 'The Big Dance'.
10-01-2021 11:20 AM
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Buc66 Offline
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Post: #72
RE: SEC EXPANSION
Watch out ASUN — AAC could be coming for you:

https://www.cbssports.com/college-footba...-over-aac/
10-01-2021 04:28 PM
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Buc66 Offline
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Post: #73
RE: SEC EXPANSION
Why not App State?


“The AAC, which will be down to eight football members after the Big 12 departures, now must reconsider its expansion strategy. UAB, Charlotte, North Texas and UTSA could be among the top candidates.”





https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nc...947531001/
(This post was last modified: 10-02-2021 11:26 AM by Buc66.)
10-02-2021 11:23 AM
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Post: #74
RE: SEC EXPANSION
Strong possibilities?


Prairie State Pigskin — July, 2021

Ohio Valley Conference exploring possible additions for departed members

The recent reshuffling of conferences has also left Chattanooga and East Tennessee State as strong possibilities. Both certainly fit the geographic mold of the OVC.
10-05-2021 10:49 AM
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Post: #75
RE: SEC EXPANSION
Is there any reason at all that ETSU would leave the SoCon for the OVC at this time? I can’t think of any upside for that move.
10-05-2021 11:21 AM
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Post: #76
RE: SEC EXPANSION
A move to the OVC would be a horrible regressive backward step. The best of the OVC just left conference. You want want to join the leftovers.

ETSU and its supporters want to grow and move up the food chain. They don't want another asuck disaster.
10-05-2021 11:33 AM
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Post: #77
RE: SEC EXPANSION
I did see an article somewhere by an OVC writer, can't remember where or by who, but they said the OVC would like to look at ETSU and UTC to fill the missing spots.

In their dreams. OVC wouldn't even be a lateral move
(This post was last modified: 10-06-2021 08:11 AM by etsuBucsFan1988.)
10-06-2021 08:09 AM
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Post: #78
RE: SEC EXPANSION
(10-06-2021 08:09 AM)etsuBucsFan1988 Wrote:  I did see an article somewhere by an OVC writer, can't remember where or by who, but they said the OVC would like to look at ETSU and UTC to fill the missing spots.

In their dreams. OVC wouldn't even be a lateral move

The article below by Dan Verdun. Yep, where did Dan come up with that?

https://www.chicagonow.com/prairie-state...d-members/
10-06-2021 08:23 AM
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Post: #79
RE: SEC EXPANSION
The OVC has just been gutted in both football and basketball. They’re on life support. Travel costs would likely double. We may not have a lot in common with the small private SoCon schools but they are historically relevant to our fans. Directional mid-west teams that are 8+ hours away are not. It would be great if some schools could get together and just form a new conference. There are pieces and parts in the CAA, OVC, Big South and SoCon that could make an awesome mid major conference. I have no idea what that would take but it would be the best case scenario to me other than finding our way to the FBS somehow.
10-06-2021 01:28 PM
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RE: SEC EXPANSION
Sanders was asked on the radio show last night if he would like to move to FBS like APP ST, Georgia Southern, Coastal Carolina and others have done. He said he would have no problem with moving to FBS. He pointed out the crowds and how they were definitely helping the team. He said he had talked with AD Carter last year and this year about adding seats. He said it's all up to the AD and President.

The SoCon has provided a good home but ETSU cannot continue to grow in a conference that is losing ground to other mid major conferences. There are schools in nearly all of the sponsored sports that do not field a team in the high profile sports. For example, baseball and womens basketball are not represented by all members. This causes big problems in scheduling.

When football was brought back, supporters were shown renderings of a football stadium that ETSU was going to build. It was modeled after Charlotte and Coastal Carolina stadiums. We were told the first phase would be 10-12,000 at a cost of appox 26mil. That didn't happen. Instead, someone changed the plans to a 7600 stadium with an additional 3000 to be added the year after completion of first phase. That didn't happen. We were told ETSU will be ready move to a better conference when next reorganization of Conferences took place. We were told by the AD, ETSU goal was to be the preeminent mid major university. None of that has happened and six years have passed.

Bucs fans have been treated to a very good basketball program and a rising football program plus what has to be one of the best mid major bands in the country. Buc fans have also paid, IMO,, someone can correct me, the highest ticket prices in the SoCon.

ETSU does not have the burden of maintaining a basketball arena. ETSU has a new but one of the smallest football stadiums. Gardner Webb as an example, a small private school just over the Mtn, has a 9000 seat stadium. The Dome was built in 1974 with 12,000 seats. Johnson City and ETSU has maybe doubled in size since then. Why was 7600 thought to be adequate?

ETSU has the best overall attendance for all sports. How can ETSU Athletics continue to grow?

What happened to the promises that were made to the supporters? Where did the money go for the second phase of the football stadium? Why do football fans have to walk 50- 80 yds to concessions and bathrooms. So many promises, few if any, kept.

ETSU has and is improving in all phases of a university but what is the future? Is the current state of Athletics static? If it is static and this is the end of the road, I believe ETSU Athletics has achieved all it can in the SoCon with the exception of winning a game in in the 'Big Dance'.

Fans and supporters kept their promises. They have showed up in great attendance and they paid the asking price. When is ETSU Athletics going to keep their promises?

Sorry for the rant. I was in Boone, NC yesterday for the first time in 15 years Marvelled at what App St has become and the unbelievable growth of Boone. I envy App St and their fans. I saw first hand [/u]what could have been and what could be the future of ETSU. I can only hope.
10-07-2021 12:58 PM
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