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ESPN: Realignment Revisited - the beginning of the end for Big East football
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Hokie4Skins Offline
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ESPN: Realignment Revisited - the beginning of the end for Big East football
https://www.espn.com/college-football/st...t-football


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07-20-2021 10:37 AM
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RE: ESPN: Realignment Revisited - the beginning of the end for Big East football
First, it is sad to read the blame and such that Commissioner Marinatto unfairly placed on himself. He seemed like a really nice person too.

Second, I find it interesting that it listed Pitt (with Rutgers) was actually pushing for a Grant of Rights. It seemed that Pitt has long been considered the main saboteur.

Third, the biggest what-if to me is what might have happened if that football-only western flank had occurred. BYU, Utah, and Boise State would have been provided strength in numbers. The current Big East has obviously done well in going back to the origins --- hoops focused as the #1 (and #101) priority.

A forever what-if will be if they had not rejected the mammoth fanbase by far in their footprint (Penn State) in 1981. That was just before Georgia & Oklahoma won their lawsuit for ownership of their football programs for TV away from the NCAA. That was probably the defining point to eventually set things in motion that has not ended. PSU would have provided almost a decade long incubation period for Big East football to have thrived --- and Penn State barely received the votes to join the Big Ten when they did in 1989.

I had the extreme longshot opportunity to have spoken incidentally with former Pitt AD Oval Jaynes about ten years ago at the Ohio Valley Conference baseball tournament in my hometown. Jacksonville State had pulled him out of retirement to be interim AD ... he was incredibly candid about the mid/late 80's and what he wanted to do back then. With a strong southern drawl, he had to be an interesting fish out of water there.
07-20-2021 01:31 PM
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DFW HOYA Online
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RE: ESPN: Realignment Revisited - the beginning of the end for Big East football
ESPN had a big role in the destabilization of the conference. Not to acknowledge this is more propaganda from the World Wide Leader.
07-20-2021 02:03 PM
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esayem Offline
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RE: ESPN: Realignment Revisited - the beginning of the end for Big East football
There was no way the Big East was going to remain a P6 conference, so if they wanted to keep the entire conference intact they should have added Villanova (football) and UCF (all-sports). When Rutgers, WVU, and Louisville left, add Temple, UMass, and Navy (football only). You end up with a 13-team Big East for basketball with the option of adding one of Xavier, Butler, or Creighton for an even 7/7 split.

UMass*
UConn
Temple*
Villanova*
Navy*
Cincinnati
UCF*
USF

PC
SJU
Seton Hall
G'town
Xavier*
DePaul
Marquette
07-20-2021 02:30 PM
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Erictelevision Offline
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RE: ESPN: Realignment Revisited - the beginning of the end for Big East football
If they wanted Navy (and they should’ve) why NOT Army?
07-20-2021 02:39 PM
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HartfordHusky Online
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RE: ESPN: Realignment Revisited - the beginning of the end for Big East football
The Syracuse AD pretty much spells out what happened. The Big East didn’t expand when it could have saved itself by doing so along with not turning down ESPN’s TV deal. TCU, Houston, UCF, and Memphis should have been invited way before the conference imploded but the hoops schools weren’t interested in making the football conference viable.
07-20-2021 08:33 PM
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mikeinsec127 Offline
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RE: ESPN: Realignment Revisited - the beginning of the end for Big East football
(07-20-2021 02:30 PM)esayem Wrote:  There was no way the Big East was going to remain a P6 conference, so if they wanted to keep the entire conference intact they should have added Villanova (football) and UCF (all-sports). When Rutgers, WVU, and Louisville left, add Temple, UMass, and Navy (football only). You end up with a 13-team Big East for basketball with the option of adding one of Xavier, Butler, or Creighton for an even 7/7 split.

UMass*
UConn
Temple*
Villanova*
Navy*
Cincinnati
UCF*
USF

PC
SJU
Seton Hall
G'town
Xavier*
DePaul
Marquette

Stop. Villanova moving up was pure fantasy. They had no stadium, no ability to improve practice facilities, no fan support and no money to make the move. There was no room on campus for improved facilities and the town was dead set against allowing expansion of the campus or the original stadium. Villanova's plan was to play all away games and expect the other BE schools to split their gates. Eventually their home games would be played at a little soccer stadium in Chester, hoping the away team would fill the venue.
07-20-2021 09:11 PM
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Fighting Muskie Online
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RE: ESPN: Realignment Revisited - the beginning of the end for Big East football
(07-20-2021 02:30 PM)esayem Wrote:  There was no way the Big East was going to remain a P6 conference, so if they wanted to keep the entire conference intact they should have added Villanova (football) and UCF (all-sports). When Rutgers, WVU, and Louisville left, add Temple, UMass, and Navy (football only). You end up with a 13-team Big East for basketball with the option of adding one of Xavier, Butler, or Creighton for an even 7/7 split.

UMass*
UConn
Temple*
Villanova*
Navy*
Cincinnati
UCF*
USF

PC
SJU
Seton Hall
G'town
Xavier*
DePaul
Marquette

If Cincinnati, USF, and UCF are still concerned about football, I don’t see them being happy with that set up.
07-20-2021 09:16 PM
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Wedge Offline
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RE: ESPN: Realignment Revisited - the beginning of the end for Big East football
(07-20-2021 08:33 PM)HartfordHusky Wrote:  The Syracuse AD pretty much spells out what happened. The Big East didn’t expand when it could have saved itself by doing so along with not turning down ESPN’s TV deal. TCU, Houston, UCF, and Memphis should have been invited way before the conference imploded but the hoops schools weren’t interested in making the football conference viable.

Seems like it would have been difficult in any circumstances to convince the no-FBS programs to create a 20-member basketball conference in which they were so outnumbered by FBS programs. Maybe that means the football/basketball divorce should have happened years before it did?
07-20-2021 09:19 PM
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Fighting Muskie Online
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RE: ESPN: Realignment Revisited - the beginning of the end for Big East football
(07-20-2021 02:03 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  ESPN had a big role in the destabilization of the conference. Not to acknowledge this is more propaganda from the World Wide Leader.

This guy gets it. ESPN was always playing favorites between the ACC and Big East. When the Big East refused the low ball tv offer, ESPN plucked the tv properties they wanted and dropped them in the ACC.
07-20-2021 09:24 PM
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mikeinsec127 Offline
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RE: ESPN: Realignment Revisited - the beginning of the end for Big East football
(07-20-2021 01:31 PM)MemTGRS Wrote:  First, it is sad to read the blame and such that Commissioner Marinatto unfairly placed on himself. He seemed like a really nice person too.

Second, I find it interesting that it listed Pitt (with Rutgers) was actually pushing for a Grant of Rights. It seemed that Pitt has long been considered the main saboteur.

Third, the biggest what-if to me is what might have happened if that football-only western flank had occurred. BYU, Utah, and Boise State would have been provided strength in numbers. The current Big East has obviously done well in going back to the origins --- hoops focused as the #1 (and #101) priority.

A forever what-if will be if they had not rejected the mammoth fanbase by far in their footprint (Penn State) in 1981. That was just before Georgia & Oklahoma won their lawsuit for ownership of their football programs for TV away from the NCAA. That was probably the defining point to eventually set things in motion that has not ended. PSU would have provided almost a decade long incubation period for Big East football to have thrived --- and Penn State barely received the votes to join the Big Ten when they did in 1989.

I had the extreme longshot opportunity to have spoken incidentally with former Pitt AD Oval Jaynes about ten years ago at the Ohio Valley Conference baseball tournament in my hometown. Jacksonville State had pulled him out of retirement to be interim AD ... he was incredibly candid about the mid/late 80's and what he wanted to do back then. With a strong southern drawl, he had to be an interesting fish out of water there.

It is widely believed among Rutgers fans that Syracuse was the main saboteur. From the time that it was left out of the original ACC raid, the orange were plotting to jump conferences. Their people were leaking everything back to the ACC via BC in hopes of one day getting an invite.

PSU would have accepted a BE invite, but not for football. Joe Pa was pushing the eastern all sports conference as a counter to the BE. PSU.'s stadium, fan base and ren=venue stream were double that of any other easter football program. He wanted parity in all sports except football. If PSU had managed to get the football conference going, it would have been ten years of the nits running through the conference the way FSU ran through the ACC when it first joined.
07-20-2021 09:28 PM
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UTEPDallas Online
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RE: ESPN: Realignment Revisited - the beginning of the end for Big East football
(07-20-2021 09:24 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(07-20-2021 02:03 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  ESPN had a big role in the destabilization of the conference. Not to acknowledge this is more propaganda from the World Wide Leader.

This guy gets it. ESPN was always playing favorites between the ACC and Big East. When the Big East refused the low ball tv offer, ESPN plucked the tv properties they wanted and dropped them in the ACC.

Didn’t the Boston College AD say the ACC expanded because ESPN told them to? He had to retract but it was too late.
07-20-2021 09:49 PM
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AllTideUp Offline
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Post: #13
RE: ESPN: Realignment Revisited - the beginning of the end for Big East football
(07-20-2021 09:19 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(07-20-2021 08:33 PM)HartfordHusky Wrote:  The Syracuse AD pretty much spells out what happened. The Big East didn’t expand when it could have saved itself by doing so along with not turning down ESPN’s TV deal. TCU, Houston, UCF, and Memphis should have been invited way before the conference imploded but the hoops schools weren’t interested in making the football conference viable.

Seems like it would have been difficult in any circumstances to convince the no-FBS programs to create a 20-member basketball conference in which they were so outnumbered by FBS programs. Maybe that means the football/basketball divorce should have happened years before it did?

Playing the hypothetical, had the football schools broken off before the original ACC raid then I think they're in a pretty good situation.

Miami
Virginia Tech
West Virginia
Rutgers
Boston College
Syracuse
Pittsburgh
Temple

They could have still invited schools like Louisville, Cincinnati, and maybe a couple more.

It would have been an interesting counterbalance to the ACC of that time.
07-20-2021 09:53 PM
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esayem Offline
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RE: ESPN: Realignment Revisited - the beginning of the end for Big East football
(07-20-2021 09:11 PM)mikeinsec127 Wrote:  
(07-20-2021 02:30 PM)esayem Wrote:  There was no way the Big East was going to remain a P6 conference, so if they wanted to keep the entire conference intact they should have added Villanova (football) and UCF (all-sports). When Rutgers, WVU, and Louisville left, add Temple, UMass, and Navy (football only). You end up with a 13-team Big East for basketball with the option of adding one of Xavier, Butler, or Creighton for an even 7/7 split.

UMass*
UConn
Temple*
Villanova*
Navy*
Cincinnati
UCF*
USF

PC
SJU
Seton Hall
G'town
Xavier*
DePaul
Marquette

Stop. Villanova moving up was pure fantasy. They had no stadium, no ability to improve practice facilities, no fan support and no money to make the move. There was no room on campus for improved facilities and the town was dead set against allowing expansion of the campus or the original stadium. Villanova's plan was to play all away games and expect the other BE schools to split their gates. Eventually their home games would be played at a little soccer stadium in Chester, hoping the away team would fill the venue.

Yet they were legitimately brought up and seriously considered by Big East people. Huh, weird.
07-20-2021 10:08 PM
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UTEPDallas Online
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RE: ESPN: Realignment Revisited - the beginning of the end for Big East football
(07-20-2021 09:53 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(07-20-2021 09:19 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(07-20-2021 08:33 PM)HartfordHusky Wrote:  The Syracuse AD pretty much spells out what happened. The Big East didn’t expand when it could have saved itself by doing so along with not turning down ESPN’s TV deal. TCU, Houston, UCF, and Memphis should have been invited way before the conference imploded but the hoops schools weren’t interested in making the football conference viable.

Seems like it would have been difficult in any circumstances to convince the no-FBS programs to create a 20-member basketball conference in which they were so outnumbered by FBS programs. Maybe that means the football/basketball divorce should have happened years before it did?

Playing the hypothetical, had the football schools broken off before the original ACC raid then I think they're in a pretty good situation.

Miami
Virginia Tech
West Virginia
Rutgers
Boston College
Syracuse
Pittsburgh
Temple

They could have still invited schools like Louisville, Cincinnati, and maybe a couple more.

It would have been an interesting counterbalance to the ACC of that time.

It could probably have been East Carolina for football only. Most people forget Louisville played in an old baseball stadium and Cincinnati was really bad in football. ECU football wasn’t that far from West Virginia and Virginia Tech back then.
07-20-2021 10:09 PM
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esayem Offline
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RE: ESPN: Realignment Revisited - the beginning of the end for Big East football
(07-20-2021 09:16 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(07-20-2021 02:30 PM)esayem Wrote:  There was no way the Big East was going to remain a P6 conference, so if they wanted to keep the entire conference intact they should have added Villanova (football) and UCF (all-sports). When Rutgers, WVU, and Louisville left, add Temple, UMass, and Navy (football only). You end up with a 13-team Big East for basketball with the option of adding one of Xavier, Butler, or Creighton for an even 7/7 split.

UMass*
UConn
Temple*
Villanova*
Navy*
Cincinnati
UCF*
USF

PC
SJU
Seton Hall
G'town
Xavier*
DePaul
Marquette

If Cincinnati, USF, and UCF are still concerned about football, I don’t see them being happy with that set up.

Well that’s what ended up happening. Adding Memphis and Houston to the original Big East lineup was NEVER a viable long term solution.
07-20-2021 10:14 PM
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MidknightWhiskey Offline
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RE: ESPN: Realignment Revisited - the beginning of the end for Big East football
(07-20-2021 10:08 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(07-20-2021 09:11 PM)mikeinsec127 Wrote:  
(07-20-2021 02:30 PM)esayem Wrote:  There was no way the Big East was going to remain a P6 conference, so if they wanted to keep the entire conference intact they should have added Villanova (football) and UCF (all-sports). When Rutgers, WVU, and Louisville left, add Temple, UMass, and Navy (football only). You end up with a 13-team Big East for basketball with the option of adding one of Xavier, Butler, or Creighton for an even 7/7 split.

UMass*
UConn
Temple*
Villanova*
Navy*
Cincinnati
UCF*
USF

PC
SJU
Seton Hall
G'town
Xavier*
DePaul
Marquette

Stop. Villanova moving up was pure fantasy. They had no stadium, no ability to improve practice facilities, no fan support and no money to make the move. There was no room on campus for improved facilities and the town was dead set against allowing expansion of the campus or the original stadium. Villanova's plan was to play all away games and expect the other BE schools to split their gates. Eventually their home games would be played at a little soccer stadium in Chester, hoping the away team would fill the venue.

Yet they were legitimately brought up and seriously considered by Big East people. Huh, weird.

IIRC the basketball schools wanted Villanova to jump into FBS football. The only way it was brought up and "seriously" considered is because the vote to add UCF & TCU was continuously blocked. Villanova didn't want to move their FB up and decided against it their study exploring the option revealed they would lose $7M annually by upgrading their football to FBS.
07-20-2021 10:22 PM
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esayem Offline
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RE: ESPN: Realignment Revisited - the beginning of the end for Big East football
(07-20-2021 10:22 PM)MidknightWhiskey Wrote:  
(07-20-2021 10:08 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(07-20-2021 09:11 PM)mikeinsec127 Wrote:  
(07-20-2021 02:30 PM)esayem Wrote:  There was no way the Big East was going to remain a P6 conference, so if they wanted to keep the entire conference intact they should have added Villanova (football) and UCF (all-sports). When Rutgers, WVU, and Louisville left, add Temple, UMass, and Navy (football only). You end up with a 13-team Big East for basketball with the option of adding one of Xavier, Butler, or Creighton for an even 7/7 split.

UMass*
UConn
Temple*
Villanova*
Navy*
Cincinnati
UCF*
USF

PC
SJU
Seton Hall
G'town
Xavier*
DePaul
Marquette

Stop. Villanova moving up was pure fantasy. They had no stadium, no ability to improve practice facilities, no fan support and no money to make the move. There was no room on campus for improved facilities and the town was dead set against allowing expansion of the campus or the original stadium. Villanova's plan was to play all away games and expect the other BE schools to split their gates. Eventually their home games would be played at a little soccer stadium in Chester, hoping the away team would fill the venue.

Yet they were legitimately brought up and seriously considered by Big East people. Huh, weird.

IIRC the basketball schools wanted Villanova to jump into FBS football. The only way it was brought up and "seriously" considered is because the vote to add UCF & TCU was continuously blocked. Villanova didn't want to move their FB up and decided against it their study exploring the option revealed they would lose $7M annually by upgrading their football to FBS.

I’m not sure what you wrote really refutes what I said, in fact, I think you reinforced it by virtue of Villanova running a feasibility study some 10-13 years after they ran their last one.
07-20-2021 10:27 PM
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MidknightWhiskey Offline
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Post: #19
RE: ESPN: Realignment Revisited - the beginning of the end for Big East football
I posted this on the thread in the AAC message board but it probably belongs in the realignment board.

Had Judy not consistently blocked UCF the Big East could of added UCF & TCU as advised. Adding full members in Orlando & Dallas going into TV contract negotiations would of definitely boosted the contract. Pitt & Rutgers could of likely convinced the conference to sign a GOR without the turmoil stabilizing the conference and putting the Big East in a position to be on the offensive during the realignment chaos instead of picked apart. Lock in this lineup and work with ESPN to pick up value adds during realignment.

Full Members:
Syracuse
Pitt
West Virginia
Rutgers
Louisville
UConn
Cincinnati
usf
UCF (new addition)
TCU (new addition)

Non Football Members:
Notre Dame
Georgetown
Providence
St Johns
Seton Hall
Villanova
DePaul
Marquette

At that point with the Big 12 looses Colorado, Nebraska, Texas A&M & Missouri putting them at 8 members and very vulnerable with the options they wanted tied up in the Big East GOR.
The ACC had Maryland looking for the door with the Big 10, maybe they add Boston College instead of Rutgers putting the ACC at 10 members and a weakened position during TV contract negotiations. Would ESPN had rather attempted to pluck GT & FSU from the ACC and place them into their partners in the Big East than pay what they did for the ACC?
07-20-2021 10:32 PM
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RE: ESPN: Realignment Revisited - the beginning of the end for Big East football
(07-20-2021 09:24 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(07-20-2021 02:03 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  ESPN had a big role in the destabilization of the conference. Not to acknowledge this is more propaganda from the World Wide Leader.

This guy gets it. ESPN was always playing favorites between the ACC and Big East. When the Big East refused the low ball tv offer, ESPN plucked the tv properties they wanted and dropped them in the ACC.

“They told us who to add”
07-20-2021 10:39 PM
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