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SI The SEC, NCAA and a Fight to Change College Sports
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #41
RE: SI The SEC, NCAA and a Fight to Change College Sports
(07-19-2021 05:04 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Wichita State, Little Rock and UTA must add football if they want to stay with this group.

UTRGV, Seattle, Grand Canyon, California Baptist and Utah Valley also must add football.

There are schools that are willing to be up there with the P5, but there are schools who hired bad leadership and who are anti-football.

Oh, of course -- when a small private college in a metro area that already has a P5 team and an NFL team doesn't have a football program with aspirations of quickly moving up to a P5 level, the only possible explanation is that the college has bad leadership.

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07-19-2021 06:22 PM
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Post: #42
RE: SI The SEC, NCAA and a Fight to Change College Sports
(07-19-2021 06:16 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Eh, I think the truth is in between. No, Emmert doesn't control the NCAA - just like Aresco doesn't control the AAC. But nor is he a mere puppet who implements presidential policies. If he was just that, he wouldn't be making $3 million a year.

The members hired Emmert, just as the AAC schools hire Aresco, to be a leader, to be the point man in formulating policy for the Association and conference because (a) they allegedly have more skills in doing this and (b) the presidents of schools have many other duties to think about beyond athletics. So you hire a "pro" to do that for you - with your approval of course.

For those who think Emmert is just a NCAA administrative lifer, his job resume includes the following:

Provost, Montana St.
Provost, Univ. of Connecticut
Chancellor, LSU
President, Univ. of Washington
Turned down offer to be President of Vanderbilt to take NCAA job
(This post was last modified: 07-19-2021 06:29 PM by DFW HOYA.)
07-19-2021 06:26 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #43
RE: SI The SEC, NCAA and a Fight to Change College Sports
(07-19-2021 06:26 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  
(07-19-2021 06:16 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Eh, I think the truth is in between. No, Emmert doesn't control the NCAA - just like Aresco doesn't control the AAC. But nor is he a mere puppet who implements presidential policies. If he was just that, he wouldn't be making $3 million a year.

The members hired Emmert, just as the AAC schools hire Aresco, to be a leader, to be the point man in formulating policy for the Association and conference because (a) they allegedly have more skills in doing this and (b) the presidents of schools have many other duties to think about beyond athletics. So you hire a "pro" to do that for you - with your approval of course.

For those who think Emmert is just a NCAA administrative lifer, his job resume includes the following:

Provost, Montana St.
Provost, Univ. of Connecticut
Chancellor, LSU

He is remembered positively here in Baton Rouge. He hired Nick Saban, and did some good things with academics as well.

There were even reports a couple months ago that LSU was trying to lure him back away from the NCAA before hiring William Tate as the new Chancellor in May.
(This post was last modified: 07-19-2021 06:35 PM by quo vadis.)
07-19-2021 06:30 PM
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Post: #44
RE: SI The SEC, NCAA and a Fight to Change College Sports
(07-19-2021 09:33 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Any change will still allow the G5 to compete under the same rules as the P5.

As much as Alabama might complain about being in the same governance structure as "small schools," they still scheduled Southern Miss, New Mexico State, and Mercer in football this year.

Those days are numbered. Every time a P5 takes a bigger deal the networks will demand more P games. And should there be a breakaway, which is what is being set up here, only schools who commit to NIL and full scholarships/and, or/ pay for play depending upon a SCOTUS ruling on stipend caps next Summer, will be involved and then inside a closed scheduling system.
07-19-2021 07:29 PM
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chester Offline
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Post: #45
RE: SI The SEC, NCAA and a Fight to Change College Sports
Some SEC teams are scheduling more A5 games down the road. If this site is accurate and things do not change --

Georgia will play eleven A5 teams a year from 2026-28 and at least eleven per year from 2029-31.

Florida will play eleven in 2026, at least eleven in '28 & '32 and TWELVE in '31. (Really?)

Alabama will play at least ten per year from 2025-34.
07-19-2021 09:01 PM
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Post: #46
RE: SI The SEC, NCAA and a Fight to Change College Sports
(07-19-2021 09:01 PM)chester Wrote:  Some SEC teams are scheduling more A5 games down the road. If this site is accurate and things do not change --

Georgia will play eleven A5 teams a year from 2026-28 and at least eleven per year from 2029-31.

Florida will play eleven in 2026, at least eleven in '28 & '32 and TWELVE in '31. (Really?)

Alabama will play at least ten per year from 2025-34.

That could be a strong indication as to why some are now saying the SEC's new contract with Disney/ABC/ESPN could be closer to a half billion and why exact amounts and details have not, and likely will not, be available until after other contracts are done. It seems AD's are lining up more content and more reasons for fans to buy tickets and that the network encouraged it financially.

I could easily see a new organization formed around stipends, NIL, and all athletes getting scholarships, as the article illustrated. The ability to do so will become the dividing line for the "great separation", for good or for ill.
07-19-2021 09:17 PM
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Post: #47
RE: SI The SEC, NCAA and a Fight to Change College Sports
(07-19-2021 08:44 AM)Maize Wrote:  From the Article

Frustrations are boiling over. That’s especially the case in the SEC, a league so flush with cash that it distributed an extra $23 million to its members this year after borrowing the money against a new television deal the conference signed with ESPN, rumored to be worth nearly a half-billion dollars.

“We’re tired of being told by some small school up in the northeast that we can’t do something,” says one SEC school administrator. “Why is Alabama and Binghamton in the same division? We continue to put those two on equal footing and it’s about time that all of us admitted that.”


https://www.si.com/.amp/college/2021/07/...ssion=true

This is why I have been advocating for that men's basketball needs to be removed from the NCAA ASAP just like football. I know that ccdloves his Maine Black Bears being in the same basketball division as Alabama, but it does not make any sense!!!!!.

In fact, even ccd himself acknowledges this, although he didn't mention men's basketball:



(06-25-2021 10:35 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  
(06-25-2021 10:05 AM)Bobcat2013 Wrote:  I think this gets lost among FCS defenders. I'd rather us play schools that get our fanbase fired up on actual tv than maybe have a shot at a natty that most people don't know exists.

There are only so many spots on TV each week. You add 50 schools to FBS and there aren't magically going to be 25 more live games broadcast on actual television unless you are willing to turn yourself into the MAC and play at 3:30 am on Tuesdays.

I'm also less concerned about the FCS playoffs or winning a title- Maine plays football to keep alumni engaged with the school by coming to campus on a pleasant fall day. It brings in some students from outside the state, and occasionally gets the name out there. Getting 8,000 butts in seats is a good turnout.

I don't know why we need to aspire to compete against Alabama or Penn State. I want to play our peers, who are similarly sized, similarly resourced teams from Maine to Virginia. Changing the label from FBS to FCS doesn't do anything for that.

My comments earlier about FBS being the screwed up division were more about the FBS being in a large glass house. Sure, 3 FCS conferences decline to play in the playoffs. 5 of the 10 FBS conferences aren't even given the option to decline, they are explicitly excluded before the ball is snapped. Clean up your own house and leave us alone.

Proof positive that the Maine Black Bears have no business being in Division 1 basketball!!!!
I am beginning to wonder if women's basketball needs to leave the NCAA too!! Good for Sankey for standing up for women's athletics!!!!!!

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(This post was last modified: 07-20-2021 12:28 AM by DawgNBama.)
07-19-2021 11:39 PM
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DawgNBama Offline
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Post: #48
RE: SI The SEC, NCAA and a Fight to Change College Sports
(07-19-2021 07:29 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(07-19-2021 09:33 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Any change will still allow the G5 to compete under the same rules as the P5.

As much as Alabama might complain about being in the same governance structure as "small schools," they still scheduled Southern Miss, New Mexico State, and Mercer in football this year.

Those days are numbered. Every time a P5 takes a bigger deal the networks will demand more P games. And should there be a breakaway, which is what is being set up here, only schools who commit to NIL and full scholarships/and, or/ pay for play depending upon a SCOTUS ruling on stipend caps next Summer, will be involved and then inside a closed scheduling system.

I agree and disagree with you JR.
Yes, there does need to be a separation, but in men's basketball and maybe some other olympic sports too, like women's basketball and baseball. FCS teams don't and shouldn't being playing FBS schools in men's basketball for sure (see comment on why are Alabama and Binghamton in the same division).

As for football though, the networks may want more P games, but the P teams and coaches are going to object, and given the new transfer portal, even an AD not listening to his/her athletes could be detrimental to their job in the long run. Fans love to see "David vs Goliath" matchups too!! With the transfer portal, and streaming, E$PN has finally met its match, IMHO.

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07-20-2021 12:46 AM
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Post: #49
RE: SI The SEC, NCAA and a Fight to Change College Sports
It is the big dilemma in college sports, would you rather win a Division 2 national championship or win one or two games in the Division 1 national championship? Well think about this, almost everyone here remembers Oral Roberts' Sweet 16 run. A lot of you probably remember when Lehigh beat Duke. Who won the 2021 NCAA Division 2 Men's Basketball National Championship? I can't even answer that without looking it up. FCS National Champion? I know the season was delayed this year but if Carson Wentz didn't hit it big with the Eagles I probably wouldn't care about FCS either. But I sure remembered when Appalachian State beat Michigan. Do you think Oral Roberts and Lehigh want to go down to Division 2 even if it means they will win a "national championship" or several of them? I doubt it. Given the choice, more schools would rather move "up" than "down".

But the problem is the big schools want certain rules in their favor. The small schools will then have two choices, let the big schools do what they want or the big schools will take their ball and walk away and the small schools will eventually be "Division 2"ed.
07-20-2021 05:22 AM
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RE: SI The SEC, NCAA and a Fight to Change College Sports
(07-20-2021 12:46 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  ... As for football though, the networks may want more P games, but the P teams and coaches are going to object, ...

The Big Ten announced an AD agreement that they were abandoning FCS buy games ... and obviously that would have been in part under pressure from or to make themselves more attractive to media partners ... but then walked it back to schools that had four Big Ten home games are allowed to have an FCS buy game.

They also announced a requirement to have 10 P5 games ... but then a certain set of Go5 schools were declared to be "good enough".

The end result was fewer FCS buy games per season, but IIRC not 50% fewer, and the total number of Go5 games buy games ended up not changing all that much.
07-20-2021 05:23 AM
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RE: SI The SEC, NCAA and a Fight to Change College Sports
(07-20-2021 05:23 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(07-20-2021 12:46 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  ... As for football though, the networks may want more P games, but the P teams and coaches are going to object, ...

The Big Ten announced an AD agreement that they were abandoning FCS buy games ... and obviously that would have been in part under pressure from or to make themselves more attractive to media partners ... but then walked it back to schools that had four Big Ten home games are allowed to have an FCS buy game.

They also announced a requirement to have 10 P5 games ... but then a certain set of Go5 schools were declared to be "good enough"

The end result was fewer FCS buy games per season, but IIRC not 50% fewer, and the total number of Go5 games buy games ended up not changing all that much.

Fully suspect schools in the American, Mountain West, BYU and Army-(Navy and Air Force are in the AAC & MWC)will all be considered "Good Enough" and will not be left out
07-20-2021 05:48 AM
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RE: SI The SEC, NCAA and a Fight to Change College Sports
(07-19-2021 03:02 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Is it time to SECede?

Some of us tried that once and the US Government, even though they had no legal right to do so, invaded our country and hunted us down with guns.
07-20-2021 07:23 AM
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RE: SI The SEC, NCAA and a Fight to Change College Sports
(07-20-2021 12:46 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  
(07-19-2021 07:29 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(07-19-2021 09:33 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Any change will still allow the G5 to compete under the same rules as the P5.

As much as Alabama might complain about being in the same governance structure as "small schools," they still scheduled Southern Miss, New Mexico State, and Mercer in football this year.

Those days are numbered. Every time a P5 takes a bigger deal the networks will demand more P games. And should there be a breakaway, which is what is being set up here, only schools who commit to NIL and full scholarships/and, or/ pay for play depending upon a SCOTUS ruling on stipend caps next Summer, will be involved and then inside a closed scheduling system.

I agree and disagree with you JR.
Yes, there does need to be a separation, but in men's basketball and maybe some other olympic sports too, like women's basketball and baseball. FCS teams don't and shouldn't being playing FBS schools in men's basketball for sure (see comment on why are Alabama and Binghamton in the same division).

As for football though, the networks may want more P games, but the P teams and coaches are going to object, and given the new transfer portal, even an AD not listening to his/her athletes could be detrimental to their job in the long run. Fans love to see "David vs Goliath" matchups too!! With the transfer portal, and streaming, E$PN has finally met its match, IMHO.

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No one can make blanket statements about a FBS/FCS or non-football divide for other sports, particularly basketball. The Big East and schools like Gonzaga make more money for the men's basketball system than the G5.
07-20-2021 08:02 AM
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Frank the Tank Online
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RE: SI The SEC, NCAA and a Fight to Change College Sports
One perpetually underrated issue in conference realignment: politics.

Also consider the legal fiduciary duties of various boards that may govern a wide range of schools (from P5 schools to Division III) and could prevent them from enacting an NCAA split.

Take the example of the University of Illinois Board of Trustees. The Board has a fiduciary duty to a high resource Big Ten school (Illinois), a low resource midmajor Division I school (UIC), and a super low resource Division II school (UIS). Can the Board fulfill its fiduciary duties to all institutions that it governs if it authorizes an NCAA split that would elevate Illinois even further but effectively relegate UIC and UIS? That's a legitimate *legal* bind for the Board.

Frankly, Illinois is a smaller example. Many other states have university boards that govern a whole lot more institutions. Look at the University of California System. Heck, Texas (the school) gets politically shackled in conference realignment matters with schools that aren't even a part of the UT System (e.g. Texas Tech), much less schools that are actually in the UT System.

That doesn't even get into the more amorphous local political considerations when larger schools try to shut out smaller schools. It's one thing to say that larger schools should get more money based on free market principles, but another matter that the larger schools can effectively relegate entire swaths of athletic department entirely.

I just think that there's so much inertia and political capital built into the NCAA structure that it's essentially "too big to fail" at this point.

To be sure, I could certainly see a whole lot more autonomy granted to the P5 as a trade-off for continued support for the NCAA structure overall. Relenting on scholarship requirements for the P5 leagues is a great example of an issue where the NCAA has really been arbitrary in its limitations - if higher resource schools can provide more scholarship opportunities to more athletes, then there shouldn't be any limitations on that front.

As most people here know, I'm no fan of the NCAA. However, I do understand that it has value if only as an organizer of national championships (outside of FBS football, of course) and a general umbrella organization. For instance, I don't think that college sports would be better off in a world where each individual sport has its own governance structure similar to how the US national teams all have separate rules and governing bodies in sending athletes to the Olympics. In that area, we have seen a whole lot of challenges to that model and frankly it just creates dozens of sport-specific bureaucracies (which in many ways is a lot less efficient than one large national multi-sport bureaucracy).

That's why I've never been one to put much stock into the NCAA splitting up. I'm a large believer in P5 power overall (and in some ways believe that it's larger than what many G5 fans give it credit for), but not a believer that the P5 would completely leave the NCAA structure entirely due to the factors I've noted here.
(This post was last modified: 07-20-2021 08:42 AM by Frank the Tank.)
07-20-2021 08:40 AM
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RE: SI The SEC, NCAA and a Fight to Change College Sports
(07-19-2021 07:29 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(07-19-2021 09:33 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Any change will still allow the G5 to compete under the same rules as the P5.

As much as Alabama might complain about being in the same governance structure as "small schools," they still scheduled Southern Miss, New Mexico State, and Mercer in football this year.

Those days are numbered. Every time a P5 takes a bigger deal the networks will demand more P games. And should there be a breakaway, which is what is being set up here, only schools who commit to NIL and full scholarships/and, or/ pay for play depending upon a SCOTUS ruling on stipend caps next Summer, will be involved and then inside a closed scheduling system.

If the choice of division is a voluntary commitment (rather than an exclusive club), the AAC will be fine. The AAC will choose to pony up and play with the big boys.

As long as midwestern peers like Purdue, Indiana, and Iowa are comfortable with the pay-for-play model, Cincinnati will commit the resources necessary to stay in the same division as them.
(This post was last modified: 07-20-2021 09:31 AM by Captain Bearcat.)
07-20-2021 08:48 AM
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RE: SI The SEC, NCAA and a Fight to Change College Sports
(07-20-2021 07:23 AM)XLance Wrote:  
(07-19-2021 03:02 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Is it time to SECede?

Some of us tried that once and the US Government, even though they had no legal right to do so, invaded our country and hunted us down with guns.

Well, I'm from Virginia, but I don't think so. I've looked for the clause in the US constitution that gives a state the right to secede, and I've never been able to find it.

IIRC, this was settled during the ratification of the constitution, and by an issue brought up by a northern state: When New York was debating whether to ratify the constitution and join the USA, the sentiment in the legislature was to do so, but with a caveat that New York retains the right to leave the USA if it should so choose. They wanted a "secession clause", at least for themselves. Alexander Hamilton said that this would be tantamount to "non-ratification", as joining the union was irreversible.
07-20-2021 08:49 AM
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RE: SI The SEC, NCAA and a Fight to Change College Sports
(07-20-2021 08:48 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(07-19-2021 07:29 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(07-19-2021 09:33 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Any change will still allow the G5 to compete under the same rules as the P5.

As much as Alabama might complain about being in the same governance structure as "small schools," they still scheduled Southern Miss, New Mexico State, and Mercer in football this year.

Those days are numbered. Every time a P5 takes a bigger deal the networks will demand more P games. And should there be a breakaway, which is what is being set up here, only schools who commit to NIL and full scholarships/and, or/ pay for play depending upon a SCOTUS ruling on stipend caps next Summer, will be involved and then inside a closed scheduling system.

If the choice of division is a voluntary commitment (rather than an exclusive club), the AAC will be fine. The AAC will choose to pony up and play with the big boys.

As long as midwestern peers like Purdue, Indiana, and Iowa are comfortable with the pay-for-play model, Cincinnati will commit the resources necessary to stay in the same division as them.

IIRC, Cincy already socks its students with about $30 million in fees and transfers, about 43% of its overall budget, to stay within mega-horn shouting distance of those regional P5s. If the amount needed to ante up to big boy status doubles, can Cincy double the fee to $60 million? Where is that extra money going to be ponied-up from? We know that other 57% of the budget, the part that athletics actually earns via fans in the stands and media deals, isn't going to be generating much new revenue.

So I'm not sure.

07-coffee3
(This post was last modified: 07-20-2021 08:54 AM by quo vadis.)
07-20-2021 08:53 AM
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RE: SI The SEC, NCAA and a Fight to Change College Sports
(07-20-2021 08:53 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(07-20-2021 08:48 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(07-19-2021 07:29 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(07-19-2021 09:33 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Any change will still allow the G5 to compete under the same rules as the P5.

As much as Alabama might complain about being in the same governance structure as "small schools," they still scheduled Southern Miss, New Mexico State, and Mercer in football this year.

Those days are numbered. Every time a P5 takes a bigger deal the networks will demand more P games. And should there be a breakaway, which is what is being set up here, only schools who commit to NIL and full scholarships/and, or/ pay for play depending upon a SCOTUS ruling on stipend caps next Summer, will be involved and then inside a closed scheduling system.

If the choice of division is a voluntary commitment (rather than an exclusive club), the AAC will be fine. The AAC will choose to pony up and play with the big boys.

As long as midwestern peers like Purdue, Indiana, and Iowa are comfortable with the pay-for-play model, Cincinnati will commit the resources necessary to stay in the same division as them.

IIRC, Cincy already socks its students with about $30 million in fees and transfers, about 43% of its overall budget, to stay within mega-horn shouting distance of those regional P5s. If the amount needed to ante up to big boy status doubles, can Cincy double the fee to $60 million? Where is that extra money going to be ponied-up from? We know that other 57% of the budget, the part that athletics actually earns via fans in the stands and media deals, isn't going to be generating much new revenue.

So I'm not sure.

07-coffee3

Sure, there's a point beyond which UC won't be able to compete.

But the cost of not competing is far higher than $30 million for us. It's the long-term difference between transforming into Pitt or Akron.

Universities are in grow-or-die mode.

20 years ago, UC's President said that within a few decades there will be about 50 massive comprehensive research universities, and almost everyone else will be a glorified community college. UC committed to becoming one of those 50 (so did UMass and UConn around that time). Part of that commitment includes competing at the same level as Big Ten and ACC schools in sports. Since then, UC has invested over $2 billion in new buildings and programs and has moved from "outside" to "inside" that group.

We're not about to risk all that by making a highly public decision to NOT compete at the highest level just to save a few tens of millions.
07-20-2021 09:38 AM
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BruceMcF Online
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RE: SI The SEC, NCAA and a Fight to Change College Sports
(07-20-2021 05:48 AM)Maize Wrote:  
(07-20-2021 05:23 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  The Big Ten announced an AD agreement that they were abandoning FCS buy games ... and obviously that would have been in part under pressure from or to make themselves more attractive to media partners ... but then walked it back to schools that had four Big Ten home games are allowed to have an FCS buy game.

They also announced a requirement to have 10 P5 games ... but then a certain set of Go5 schools were declared to be "good enough"

The end result was fewer FCS buy games per season, but IIRC not 50% fewer, and the total number of Go5 games buy games ended up not changing all that much.

Fully suspect schools in the American, Mountain West, BYU and Army-(Navy and Air Force are in the AAC & MWC)will all be considered "Good Enough" and will not be left out

Back in 2015, they said that ND, BYU, Army and Navy (which had just joined the AAC at the time of the report) would count, and that UC and UConn would be allowed.

They stated not all of the American schools would count, but Big Ten schools could apply for a school to count and the Big Ten would decide based on their recent RPI "and other factors" (I presume "other factors" is asking the media partner if a school has a big enough brand).

I haven't tracked whether any Big Ten schools have successfully{+} applied for any MWC schools to count, nor for additional AAC schools, since the policy came into effect in 2015. I'm pretty sure that all three with a mandate, the Big Ten, SEC and ACC, count ND, BYU and Army.

{+ One presumes that only successful applications would be announced.}
(This post was last modified: 07-20-2021 11:02 AM by BruceMcF.)
07-20-2021 10:46 AM
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Post: #60
RE: SI The SEC, NCAA and a Fight to Change College Sports
(07-20-2021 07:23 AM)XLance Wrote:  
(07-19-2021 03:02 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Is it time to SECede?

Some of us tried that once and the US Government, even though they had no legal right to do so, invaded our country and hunted us down with guns.

LOL
07-20-2021 10:53 AM
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