(07-10-2021 05:00 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Speaking of Rice and Stanford, how is it that Stanford, despite being in an NFL market and having high academic standards, has managed to keep a strong athletic program but Rice hasn’t?

Three reasons:

1. A competitive product. Stanford never let the football program fall completely off the map the way Rice did. Along with that, Stanford has continued to play teams of local interest (Cal, USC, UCLA, etc.) where Rice has lost most of its traditional rivals.

2. Coaches. Stanford recruits (and usually retains) top-flight coaches in nearly every sport.

3. Money. Stanford built the nation's largest athletics-only endowment, now over $500 million. That return ($25 million/year) covers a lot of expenses, plus the Pac-12 TV contract as well. Rice had very little coming in the way of Southwest Conference money and its subsequent terms in the WAC and C-USA bring in very little in comparison.

(07-09-2021 11:24 PM)TroyTBoy Wrote:  I know this seems far fetched but we are seeing a lot of movement around Texas lately, and I have the feeling that Rice is looking at the bottom line more than any other school.
The Old SWC is actually the ideal model in todays climate.
We know that genie is never going back in the bottle (and logistics make this impossible) but if there is ever a time to bend rules it's in our new Covid reality.

So lets imagine that, as the last former SWC school standing, Rice is able to reinvent the SWC.

What 9 teams could they cobble together into a decent league?
Here are the 9 members I could imagine being in Rice's new SWC. This would be a cool league with regional appeal.
It's not the old SWC but none of the reimagined conferences (like the new big east, new WAC, etc) are even close to what they were.

New Southwest Conference

Rice Owls
Arkansas State Red Wolves
North Texas Mean Green
Texas State Bobcats
UTEP Miners
UTSA Roadrunners
University of Louisiana Ragin Cajuns
Louisiana Tech Bulldogs
Southern Miss Golden Eagles

6 of your group is already in CUSA West IIRC

While it won't happen this way due to obvious reasons, Rice would connect well with associating with regional private schools that include Tulane, Southern Methodist, TCU, Baylor, and Tulsa.

The inconvenient truth is that Rice must get better in a sport it has long ignored (football) to find a new home. Ideally, a football-only bid to the AAC invites the kind of divisional rivals (SMU, Houston, Tulsa, Tulane, Memphis) which could provide it a pathway to stability.

Take the 7 members of C-USA West, add Texas St, ULL, and Ark St, and you have yourself a 10 team SWC.

C-USA East refills with App St, GA St, and GA Southern.

Left in the SBC are:

CCU
Troy
USA
ULM
UTA (no fb)
UALR (no fb)

You’ve got a lot of FCS schools in the Deep South to pick from to restock.

(07-10-2021 06:05 PM)OdinFrigg Wrote:  While it won't happen this way due to obvious reasons, Rice would connect well with associating with regional private schools that include Tulane, Southern Methodist, TCU, Baylor, and Tulsa.

Lets say something happens to the AAC and the teams in it are willing to consider other options that would provide for more economical travel. While I doubt Rice would lead the charge---I could see a new SWC type league that could emerge.

Texas Division
Rice
Houston
SMU
UTSA
N Texas
Texas St

Border Division

Ark St
LaTech
Tulane
ULL
Tulsa
Memphis

While not a super conference---its an interesting conference. Very regional with 4 built-in rivarly games (Rice vs Houston, TxSt vs UTSA, LaTech vs ULL, and SMU vs N Texas). I suspect more rivalries would quickly follow given the compressed nature of such a conference. You could even nab Witchita just to improve the basketball product. I was looking at this through the eyes of Rice---but it could work for all the teams. Id also add that S Miss would also be a good choice for the Border Division. I opted for ULL because I thought LaTech and ULL would make for the kind of bitter rivalry game that makes a conference more interesting.

(07-10-2021 06:05 PM)OdinFrigg Wrote:  While it won't happen this way due to obvious reasons, Rice would connect well with associating with regional private schools that include Tulane, Southern Methodist, TCU, Baylor, and Tulsa.

basically the Magnolia conference idea

(07-10-2021 05:21 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(07-10-2021 05:00 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Speaking of Rice and Stanford, how is it that Stanford, despite being in an NFL market and having high academic standards, has managed to keep a strong athletic program but Rice hasn’t?

Three reasons:

1. A competitive product. Stanford never let the football program fall completely off the map the way Rice did. Along with that, Stanford has continued to play teams of local interest (Cal, USC, UCLA, etc.) where Rice has lost most of its traditional rivals.

2. Coaches. Stanford recruits (and usually retains) top-flight coaches in nearly every sport.

3. Money. Stanford built the nation's largest athletics-only endowment, now over $500 million. That return ($25 million/year) covers a lot of expenses, plus the Pac-12 TV contract as well. Rice had very little coming in the way of Southwest Conference money and its subsequent terms in the WAC and C-USA bring in very little in comparison.

I'll add another, the whole topic of this thread, the "SWC". In Texas, there was up until the early 90's a whole conference of top tier Texas schools that Rice had to compete with. Meanwhile in California, Stanford in the Pac 8/10/12 had "only" three, UCLA. USC, and California Berkeley. Imagine if the Pac 8 were those three schools plus San Diego State, Fresno State, Long Beach State, UC Santa Barbara (pretend they still have a football program). Sure, Stanford could lose athletes to Berkeley or UCLA/USC but they're not as likely to lose them to Wazzu. Almost every SWC rival to Rice is in state (Arkansas the exception).

I posted a year or two ago that Rice would make a good candidate for independence. (Granted, it is less and less practical now that the top 6 conference champions will get auto bids to the CFP, plus n

But scheduling-wise, Rice seems like it would be very happy to have a combination of former SWC opponents (including both current P5 's and AAC schools), other Texas G5 schools, a Texas FCS school, a few elite private AAU or otherwise highly selective private schools (Stanford, Duke, Wake Forest, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Tulane, and a few others), and some of the other independents to fill out 12 games. This seems to be how they do their non-conference schedule anyway.

Another factor is pure size. In the 80s, Rice had undergraduate class sizes in the neighborhood of 650. Tough to shoehorn a P5-type athletics dept into that many students. I don't know the numbers exactly, but I'd guess Stanford, NW, etc. were 3+ times larger. Rice is larger now (and still growing), which will probably help in the future, although it will of course remain relatively small.

A sample of undergraduates by FBS private schools:

Tulsa: 3,174
Rice: 3,989
Wake Forest: 5,441
Duke: 6,526
SMU: 6,827
Stanford: 6,996
Vanderbilt: 7,057
Northwestern: 8,327
Tulane: 8,610
Notre Dame: 8,731
Boston College: 9,370
TCU: 9,707
Miami: 11,090
Baylor: 14,399
Syracuse: 15,275
USC: 20,351
BYU: 30,843

(07-10-2021 06:34 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Take the 7 members of C-USA West, add Texas St, ULL, and Ark St, and you have yourself a 10 team SWC.

C-USA East refills with App St, GA St, and GA Southern.

Left in the SBC are:

CCU
Troy
USA
ULM
UTA (no fb)
UALR (no fb)

You’ve got a lot of FCS schools in the Deep South to pick from to restock.

Amazed that some continue to view CUSA being superior to the SB. App isn't leaving the SB for CUSA and it's doubtful GA So or GA St would either. The more likely situation would be the SB making a play for Charlotte, Marshall, ODU and USM which would make for a heck of a conference.

(07-11-2021 09:14 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  A sample of undergraduates by FBS private schools:

Tulsa: 3,174
Rice: 3,989
Wake Forest: 5,441
Duke: 6,526
SMU: 6,827
Stanford: 6,996
Vanderbilt: 7,057
Northwestern: 8,327
Tulane: 8,610
Notre Dame: 8,731
Boston College: 9,370
TCU: 9,707
Miami: 11,090
Baylor: 14,399
Syracuse: 15,275
USC: 20,351
BYU: 30,843

Yes, and Rice plans a 20% increase. Many, many reasons to approach that Duke to Notre Dame size.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnie...301b63b6a7

(07-11-2021 08:42 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  I posted a year or two ago that Rice would make a good candidate for independence. (Granted, it is less and less practical now that the top 6 conference champions will get auto bids to the CFP, plus n

But scheduling-wise, Rice seems like it would be very happy to have a combination of former SWC opponents (including both current P5 's and AAC schools), other Texas G5 schools, a Texas FCS school, a few elite private AAU or otherwise highly selective private schools (Stanford, Duke, Wake Forest, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Tulane, and a few others), and some of the other independents to fill out 12 games. This seems to be how they do their non-conference schedule anyway.

You are correct. We are elated with the SWC reunion schedule starting this football season. Our goal is not to play in a throwaway minor ESPN Bowl. It is to play Arkansas, Texas and Houston, even if we don’t win the games. But can’t win one without scheduling one, and as long as Holgerson is on the sidelines at UH, I am hopeful for the Bayou Bucket rivalry game this year.

(07-11-2021 09:20 AM)AppManDG Wrote:  

(07-10-2021 06:34 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Take the 7 members of C-USA West, add Texas St, ULL, and Ark St, and you have yourself a 10 team SWC.

C-USA East refills with App St, GA St, and GA Southern.

Left in the SBC are:

CCU
Troy
USA
ULM
UTA (no fb)
UALR (no fb)

You’ve got a lot of FCS schools in the Deep South to pick from to restock.

Amazed that some continue to view CUSA being superior to the SB. App isn't leaving the SB for CUSA and it's doubtful GA So or GA St would either. The more likely situation would be the SB making a play for Charlotte, Marshall, ODU and USM which would make for a heck of a conference.

Sun Belt has done very well recently in football while CUSA has slipped. However when viewed through all athletics and not just football, CUSA is the better conference. The name recognition and academics of schools in CUSA are better too. The question of moving from the Sun Belt to CUSA is if the separation is big enough to warrant such a gamble. App State is doing fine in the belt and maybe they see the step up to CUSA as not being enough and a gamble. Basically, it doesn't seem to be THAT much greener on the other side, why make the change. There's an argument to be made there that I understand. But overall CUSA is the better athletic conference.

(07-10-2021 06:34 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Take the 7 members of C-USA West, add Texas St, ULL, and Ark St, and you have yourself a 10 team SWC.

This is not even Plan D, E, or F at Rice.

Attackcoog gets it in his post above.

If Rice wants a mostly all Texas SWC they should just join the WAC and run an indy FB schedule and see if the WAC is serious about going FBS.

(07-10-2021 09:42 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(07-10-2021 06:05 PM)OdinFrigg Wrote:  While it won't happen this way due to obvious reasons, Rice would connect well with associating with regional private schools that include Tulane, Southern Methodist, TCU, Baylor, and Tulsa.

Lets say something happens to the AAC and the teams in it are willing to consider other options that would provide fir economical travel. While I doubt Rice would lead the charge---I could see a new SWC type league that could emerge.

Texas Division
Rice
Houston
SMU
UTSA
N Texas
Texas St

Border Division

Ark St
LaTech
Tulane
ULL
Tulsa
Memphis

While not a super conference---its an interesting conference. Very regional with 4 built-in rivarly games (Rice vs Houston, TxSt vs UTSA, LaTech vs ULL, and SMU vs N Texas). I suspect more rivalries would quickly follow given the compressed nature of such a conference. You could even nab Witchita just to improve the basketball product. I was looking at this through the eyes of Rice---but S Miss would also be a good choice for the Border Division.

I think Southern Miss would be taken before Ark St or ULL but I like it overall. Southern Miss has a lot of history with Tulane, La Tech and Memphis.

It has good permanent cross division matchups too if wanted, but I don't think it would be.

Rice-Tulane: Secular, private school bros
SMU - Tulsa: Kind of religious, private school bros
TXST-ULL: Sun Belt bros
UNT-stAte: Former Sun Belt bros
UTSA-LaTech: CUSA bros
Houston-Memphis: AAC bros

(07-10-2021 07:01 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-09-2021 11:24 PM)TroyTBoy Wrote:  I know this seems far fetched but we are seeing a lot of movement around Texas lately, and I have the feeling that Rice is looking at the bottom line more than any other school.
The Old SWC is actually the ideal model in todays climate.
We know that genie is never going back in the bottle (and logistics make this impossible) but if there is ever a time to bend rules it's in our new Covid reality.

So lets imagine that, as the last former SWC school standing, Rice is able to reinvent the SWC.

What 9 teams could they cobble together into a decent league?
Here are the 9 members I could imagine being in Rice's new SWC. This would be a cool league with regional appeal.
It's not the old SWC but none of the reimagined conferences (like the new big east, new WAC, etc) are even close to what they were.

New Southwest Conference

Rice Owls
Arkansas State Red Wolves
North Texas Mean Green
Texas State Bobcats
UTEP Miners
UTSA Roadrunners
University of Louisiana Ragin Cajuns
Louisiana Tech Bulldogs
Southern Miss Golden Eagles

I like that conference.

I like it too! Future expansion candidates could be Missouri State and NMSU assuming either can turn the corner in Football.

(07-11-2021 08:42 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  I posted a year or two ago that Rice would make a good candidate for independence. (Granted, it is less and less practical now that the top 6 conference champions will get auto bids to the CFP, plus n

But scheduling-wise, Rice seems like it would be very happy to have a combination of former SWC opponents (including both current P5 's and AAC schools), other Texas G5 schools, a Texas FCS school, a few elite private AAU or otherwise highly selective private schools (Stanford, Duke, Wake Forest, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Tulane, and a few others), and some of the other independents to fill out 12 games. This seems to be how they do their non-conference schedule anyway.

I think Rice could get the games it needs to go Indy---but its going to result in some long range travel---especially late season in the season when indy scheduling becomes more of an issue. There simply are no nearby indy teams. BYU and NM St would be the only western Indy teams available to fill November slots. The rest are largely east or northeastern teams. So, be it BYU or Connecticut---U Mass or NM St---Rice would be doing some long range traveling in the latter half of each season.

While I think they could pull it off---I think they are probably better off in a conference. As it stands, they would be better off if they could get to the AAC or MW. If a huge complete reshuffle of the entire 65 team G5 occurs, then some recreation of the SWC using the G5 parts available would be perfect home for Rice.