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Could Rice restart the SWC in the post-Covid climate?
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DFW HOYA Offline
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Post: #101
RE: Could Rice restart the SWC in the post-Covid climate?
(07-14-2021 10:33 PM)Side.Show.Joe Wrote:  That is a terrible way to measure universities. If you don't like US News, than look at the Carnegie Tier 1 list. Rice and UAB are both Carnegie Tier 1 Research universities. Neither ULL nor Texas State are in that category. I believe the Sun Belt's only football playing university listed as Tier 1 is Georgia State. C-USA has Rice, UAB, North Texas, FIU, and UTEP listed as Tier 1.

There are 180 Tier I universities, covering everyone from Harvard to Wayne State.
(This post was last modified: 07-17-2021 02:25 PM by DFW HOYA.)
07-17-2021 02:24 PM
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Yosef Himself Offline
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Post: #102
RE: Could Rice restart the SWC in the post-Covid climate?
(07-17-2021 02:11 PM)Side.Show.Joe Wrote:  
(07-16-2021 01:28 PM)JTApps1 Wrote:  
(07-14-2021 10:33 PM)Side.Show.Joe Wrote:  
(07-14-2021 07:53 PM)AppManDG Wrote:  
(07-13-2021 10:52 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  No, you’re not.

C-USA has bigger budgets, schools ranked higher academically, better facilities, more home and home games against P5 schools (and P6 in basketball), a core of basketball schools with multiple NCAAs, it’s a better baseball league and the Olympic sports are better too (Marshall just won the men’s soccer national championship). Those are things school presidents consider when it comes to realignment not just “we’ve been better in football in two of the last 20 seasons so we’ll stay where we are”.

Personally, I’m against adding more schools regardless if they’re FBS or FCS or even worse, swap schools with the Sun Belt. C-USA needs to focus on what they have. The potential is there but sadly mediocrity has been the standard since the 2.0 days.

Schools are very similar academically with only Louisiana Lafayette, Rice, Texas State & UAB making The Princeton Review's Best 386 Colleges & Universities. I don't pay much attention to US News since their rankings are heavily infulenced by surveys. According to the Knight Comission CUSA & SB budgets are extremely similar with ULM being the lone exception. Baseball better in CUSA? Sun Belt RPI has been better 3 out of the last 5 years, so it's basically a wash. I'll put SB facilities up against CUSA's any day. BTW, bigger doesn't mean better. Especially when those seats aren't filled. The NCAA attendance data base for average attendance. The reality is all this is a just an exercise in fultility. We're happ where we are and so are you guys. That's all that matters. I just don't appreciate the unsubstantiated attitude of superiority from SOME CUSA fans. That ship sailed with the schools that bolted for the AAC.

That is a terrible way to measure universities. If you don't like US News, than look at the Carnegie Tier 1 list. Rice and UAB are both Carnegie Tier 1 Research universities. Neither ULL nor Texas State are in that category. I believe the Sun Belt's only football playing university listed as Tier 1 is Georgia State. C-USA has Rice, UAB, North Texas, FIU, and UTEP listed as Tier 1.

For the record C-USA basketball is far better than Sun Belt basketball. SB champs App St. got beat by Norfolk St. in a first four game in March Madness. Plus, North Texas bought our coach from Arkansas St. When we are able to buyout your best coaches contracts, it makes it hard for the Sun Belt to improve their basketball. But to your point, yes we are all happy where we are. So there is no need to sell either side on our opinions.

There may be more "basketball schools" in CUSA, but the reality is we're both one bid leagues.

While we were both 1 bid leagues, a strong case could be made that C-USA deserved a second bid. LA Tech and WKU both made some noise at the NIT, where both won their first round games. LA Tech beat Ole Miss and WKU beat St. Mary's. In the NCAA Tournament, North Texas took out 4 seed Purdue in our opening round game. Maybe C-USA deserved the Sun Belt's spot in the tournament, since y'all lost to Norfolk St. in their "First Four" match up.

By the way... I re-watched last season's Myrtle Beach Bowl. it was painful. App St. has a good football program rolling in Boone, and I am green with envy. But, when it comes to basketball, the Sun Belt just isn't a good league.



If the Sun Belt isn't a "good league" then the CUSA is also mediocre at its very best.

Over the last six years between CUSA/SBC/OVC/ASUN the conference RPIs fall like this:

CUSA – #14 / #13 / #14 / #15 / #23 / #22
SBC – #16 / #17 / #20 / #18 / #13 / #17
OVC – #22 / #20 / #18 / #21 / #25 / #21
ASUN – #26 / #21 / #30 / #30 / #24 / #28

And that has averaged:

CUSA: 16.833
SBC: 16.8333
OVC: 21.1666
ASUN: 26.5



SBC also doesn't try to hang its hat on basketball. CUSA likes to claim basketball superiority, and their top teams are decent, but overall y'all aren't the world beaters you think.
07-17-2021 02:33 PM
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SMUstang Offline
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Post: #103
RE: Could Rice restart the SWC in the post-Covid climate?
I sure wish "Side.Show.Joe and AppManDG and Yosef Himself" would take their "C-USA vs Sunbelt" feud somewhere else instead of disrupting other serious discussions.

SMUstang
(This post was last modified: 07-17-2021 03:28 PM by SMUstang.)
07-17-2021 03:01 PM
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THUNDERStruck73 Offline
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Post: #104
RE: Could Rice restart the SWC in the post-Covid climate?
(07-17-2021 03:01 PM)SMUstang Wrote:  I sure wish "Side.Show.Joe and AppManDG and Yosef Himself" would take their C-USA vs Sunbelt feud somewhere else instead of disrupting our serious discussions.

SMUstang

Lol
07-17-2021 03:15 PM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #105
RE: Could Rice restart the SWC in the post-Covid climate?
(07-17-2021 02:24 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  
(07-14-2021 10:33 PM)Side.Show.Joe Wrote:  That is a terrible way to measure universities. If you don't like US News, than look at the Carnegie Tier 1 list. Rice and UAB are both Carnegie Tier 1 Research universities. Neither ULL nor Texas State are in that category. I believe the Sun Belt's only football playing university listed as Tier 1 is Georgia State. C-USA has Rice, UAB, North Texas, FIU, and UTEP listed as Tier 1.

There are 180 Tier I universities, covering everyone from Harvard to Wayne State.

So if one conference only has 10% of your football schools in Tier I, and another conference has 35%, neither conference is a federal funding powerhouse on average, but there appears to be a difference.

However, as explained at the Southern Fried Science blog, the Carnagie Categories are a terrible way to evaluate how much research a particular University does. It is almost entirely focused on how much resources are directed at research, so gives a heavy weight to how expensive it is to pursue research in a field, and almost totally ignores the results of the research. It has stopped being based only on Federal funding, but adding how many graduate students are on campus also fails to measure the research effectiveness of their work, either as graduate students or after they graduate.
(This post was last modified: 07-18-2021 01:01 AM by BruceMcF.)
07-18-2021 12:51 AM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #106
RE: Could Rice restart the SWC in the post-Covid climate?
Rice wouldn’t hurt the American and would help travel for Olympic sports.
(This post was last modified: 07-18-2021 06:41 AM by esayem.)
07-18-2021 06:40 AM
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dawgonit Offline
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Post: #107
RE: Could Rice restart the SWC in the post-Covid climate?
(07-18-2021 06:40 AM)esayem Wrote:  Rice wouldn’t hurt the American

Many AAC schools fear bringing in Rice and shoring up the idea of the AAC just being old CUSA in new clothes and hurt their idea of the P6.
07-18-2021 06:57 AM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #108
RE: Could Rice restart the SWC in the post-Covid climate?
(07-18-2021 06:57 AM)dawgonit Wrote:  
(07-18-2021 06:40 AM)esayem Wrote:  Rice wouldn’t hurt the American

Many AAC schools fear bringing in Rice and shoring up the idea of the AAC just being old CUSA in new clothes and hurt their idea of the P6.

How can there be a P6 if there is no more P5 once the expanded playoff starts?
(This post was last modified: 07-18-2021 07:24 AM by esayem.)
07-18-2021 07:23 AM
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Post: #109
Could Rice restart the SWC in the post-Covid climate?
(07-18-2021 07:23 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(07-18-2021 06:57 AM)dawgonit Wrote:  
(07-18-2021 06:40 AM)esayem Wrote:  Rice wouldn’t hurt the American

Many AAC schools fear bringing in Rice and shoring up the idea of the AAC just being old CUSA in new clothes and hurt their idea of the P6.

How can there be a P6 if there is no more P5 once the expanded playoff starts?


With the expanded playoff, the P6 really becomes “the six conferences who typically send their champs to the CFP”

The 6+6 opens the door for “Playoff-6” membership, on a merit basis, each and every single year.

As others posters have alluded, a solid run at an access bowl (or CFP spot) could be all that Rice needs to punch it’s ticket to another league.

SOS will still be important in the new CFP and any new additions must strengthen your conference. That pretty much goes for anybody not named SEC or B1G.
07-18-2021 07:50 AM
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Post: #110
RE: Could Rice restart the SWC in the post-Covid climate?
(07-16-2021 10:52 AM)SMUstang Wrote:  Back to the topic, Rice and Tulane are all about academics. No offense, but after all, what are colleges there for?

SMUstang

I’ve often wondered why a group of schools that are “all about academics” don’t get together and form their own athletic conference. This would serve as a practical way to form a collaborative academic alliance, much like the Big 10 has done, combining athletics with cooperative academic exchanges and and collaborative efforts to $$$$ for research grants.

Schools like Rice, Tulane, SMU, Vanderbilt, a couple of Service Academies and Davidson as a non football member.
07-18-2021 07:52 AM
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SMUstang Offline
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Post: #111
RE: Could Rice restart the SWC in the post-Covid climate?
If Rice increases it’s athletic budgets and hires some serious coaching staffs, and upgrades their facilities, particularly basketball, they may be acceptable to the AAC. They have a lot of work to do and I don’t think it will happen any time soon.

*** SMUstang ***
07-18-2021 08:02 AM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #112
RE: Could Rice restart the SWC in the post-Covid climate?
(07-18-2021 07:23 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(07-18-2021 06:57 AM)dawgonit Wrote:  
(07-18-2021 06:40 AM)esayem Wrote:  Rice wouldn’t hurt the American

Many AAC schools fear bringing in Rice and shoring up the idea of the AAC just being old CUSA in new clothes and hurt their idea of the P6.

How can there be a P6 if there is no more P5 once the expanded playoff starts?

Who said that there is going to be an even distribution of CFP revenues across all 10 FBS conferences ...
... and even more to the point, what are they smoking?

There's still going to be a "Power 5", 5 conferences with the bargaining power to get the lion's share of the CFP playoff revenue.

And as for the notion that there's going to be 6 conferences with the bargaining power to get the lion's share of the CFP playoff revenue ... yeah, I wouldn't advise putting any serious money on that bet.
07-18-2021 08:06 AM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #113
RE: Could Rice restart the SWC in the post-Covid climate?
(07-18-2021 08:06 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(07-18-2021 07:23 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(07-18-2021 06:57 AM)dawgonit Wrote:  
(07-18-2021 06:40 AM)esayem Wrote:  Rice wouldn’t hurt the American

Many AAC schools fear bringing in Rice and shoring up the idea of the AAC just being old CUSA in new clothes and hurt their idea of the P6.

How can there be a P6 if there is no more P5 once the expanded playoff starts?

Who said that there is going to be an even distribution of CFP revenues across all 10 FBS conferences ...
... and even more to the point, what are they smoking?

There's still going to be a "Power 5", 5 conferences with the bargaining power to get the lion's share of the CFP playoff revenue.

And as for the notion that there's going to be 6 conferences with the bargaining power to get the lion's share of the CFP playoff revenue ... yeah, I wouldn't advise putting any serious money on that bet.

Um, nobody?

I imagine the distributions will be made like the NCAA tournament with a base pay for every conference so those that aren’t represented still get paid something. The further a team advances the more money they receive.

So in a roundabout way the SEC is still going to make the most money because they’ll be sending a couple at-larges each season.
07-18-2021 09:08 AM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #114
RE: Could Rice restart the SWC in the post-Covid climate?
(07-18-2021 09:08 AM)esayem Wrote:  I imagine the distributions will be made like the NCAA tournament with a base pay for every conference so those that aren’t represented still get paid something. The further a team advances the more money they receive.

Though that is 30% of the surplus that the NCAA Tourney generates, while the NCAA itself wolfs down the majority to pay for its expenses.

So yeah, maybe 10%-30% of the net income from the CFP will be distributed that way, but there's nothing in the way the money is presently distributed in the CFP and NY6 system to suggest they would distribute a majority of the money that way.
(This post was last modified: 07-18-2021 12:31 PM by BruceMcF.)
07-18-2021 12:30 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #115
RE: Could Rice restart the SWC in the post-Covid climate?
(07-18-2021 12:30 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(07-18-2021 09:08 AM)esayem Wrote:  I imagine the distributions will be made like the NCAA tournament with a base pay for every conference so those that aren’t represented still get paid something. The further a team advances the more money they receive.

Though that is 30% of the surplus that the NCAA Tourney generates, while the NCAA itself wolfs down the majority to pay for its expenses.

So yeah, maybe 10%-30% of the net income from the CFP will be distributed that way, but there's nothing in the way the money is presently distributed in the CFP and NY6 system to suggest they would distribute a majority of the money that way.

If there are no bowl tie-ins, which way is suggested to distribute the money?
07-18-2021 02:48 PM
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DFW HOYA Offline
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Post: #116
RE: Could Rice restart the SWC in the post-Covid climate?
(07-18-2021 08:02 AM)SMUstang Wrote:  If Rice increases it’s athletic budgets and hires some serious coaching staffs, and upgrades their facilities, particularly basketball, they may be acceptable to the AAC. They have a lot of work to do and I don’t think it will happen any time soon.

Short of a teardown, Autry Court isn't going anywhere. It's bigger than the Tulane gym, though that doesn't say much. A basketball training facility would help.

Re: spending, a lot of this is perception. Per EADA reporting:

Football budget ($M):
SMU: 21.1
Rice: 13.7
Tulsa: 13.2
Tulane 11.8

Men's basketball budget ($M):
SMU: 7.3
Tulsa: 5.0
Tulane 3.7
Rice: 3.2

Total budget ($M):
SMU: 68.8
Rice: 42.0
Tulsa: 38.0
Tulane 31.8
(This post was last modified: 07-18-2021 05:00 PM by DFW HOYA.)
07-18-2021 04:55 PM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #117
RE: Could Rice restart the SWC in the post-Covid climate?
(07-18-2021 02:48 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(07-18-2021 12:30 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(07-18-2021 09:08 AM)esayem Wrote:  I imagine the distributions will be made like the NCAA tournament with a base pay for every conference so those that aren’t represented still get paid something. The further a team advances the more money they receive.

Though that is 30% of the surplus that the NCAA Tourney generates, while the NCAA itself wolfs down the majority to pay for its expenses.

So yeah, maybe 10%-30% of the net income from the CFP will be distributed that way, but there's nothing in the way the money is presently distributed in the CFP and NY6 system to suggest they would distribute a majority of the money that way.

If there are no bowl tie-ins, which way is suggested to distribute the money?

You are just pointing out why they may end up finding a way to use bowl tie-ins to channel the money ...

... but in any event, right now, there's a per-school distribution, and a per-conference distribution to each of the P5 and a lump sum group distribution to the Go5, and CFP participation fees, and payments from bowls.

Between all of those, the per conference distributions are presently the largest amount for the P5 and the Go5, with a key difference between the two that the bowl payments are the second largest amounts for the P5 and the per-school distributions are the second largest amounts for the Go5.

You have to be careful reading the CFP numbers on this, since they lump the per conference and per school payments together, because it makes the per conference distribution look more generation to the Go5.

It's not settled whether or not there will be any bowl payments as part of the system, but whether or not there is, there's no reason to expect that CFP participation payments will flip from being under 10% of the distribution of media revenue today to being being a majority of the distribution of the CFP media revenue.
(This post was last modified: 07-19-2021 02:23 AM by BruceMcF.)
07-19-2021 02:23 AM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #118
RE: Could Rice restart the SWC in the post-Covid climate?
So basically it’s up in the air. Got it.
07-19-2021 09:49 AM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #119
RE: Could Rice restart the SWC in the post-Covid climate?
(07-19-2021 09:49 AM)esayem Wrote:  So basically it’s up in the air. Got it.

Basically. We might expect each piece to go up or to be replaced by money in some other way ...

... but they avoided pinning down some of the most controversial details until after the got the seal of approval from the CFP board of management to hammer them out.
07-19-2021 10:08 AM
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Side.Show.Joe Offline
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Post: #120
RE: Could Rice restart the SWC in the post-Covid climate?
(07-17-2021 02:33 PM)Yosef Himself Wrote:  
(07-17-2021 02:11 PM)Side.Show.Joe Wrote:  
(07-16-2021 01:28 PM)JTApps1 Wrote:  
(07-14-2021 10:33 PM)Side.Show.Joe Wrote:  
(07-14-2021 07:53 PM)AppManDG Wrote:  Schools are very similar academically with only Louisiana Lafayette, Rice, Texas State & UAB making The Princeton Review's Best 386 Colleges & Universities. I don't pay much attention to US News since their rankings are heavily infulenced by surveys. According to the Knight Comission CUSA & SB budgets are extremely similar with ULM being the lone exception. Baseball better in CUSA? Sun Belt RPI has been better 3 out of the last 5 years, so it's basically a wash. I'll put SB facilities up against CUSA's any day. BTW, bigger doesn't mean better. Especially when those seats aren't filled. The NCAA attendance data base for average attendance. The reality is all this is a just an exercise in fultility. We're happ where we are and so are you guys. That's all that matters. I just don't appreciate the unsubstantiated attitude of superiority from SOME CUSA fans. That ship sailed with the schools that bolted for the AAC.

That is a terrible way to measure universities. If you don't like US News, than look at the Carnegie Tier 1 list. Rice and UAB are both Carnegie Tier 1 Research universities. Neither ULL nor Texas State are in that category. I believe the Sun Belt's only football playing university listed as Tier 1 is Georgia State. C-USA has Rice, UAB, North Texas, FIU, and UTEP listed as Tier 1.

For the record C-USA basketball is far better than Sun Belt basketball. SB champs App St. got beat by Norfolk St. in a first four game in March Madness. Plus, North Texas bought our coach from Arkansas St. When we are able to buyout your best coaches contracts, it makes it hard for the Sun Belt to improve their basketball. But to your point, yes we are all happy where we are. So there is no need to sell either side on our opinions.

There may be more "basketball schools" in CUSA, but the reality is we're both one bid leagues.

While we were both 1 bid leagues, a strong case could be made that C-USA deserved a second bid. LA Tech and WKU both made some noise at the NIT, where both won their first round games. LA Tech beat Ole Miss and WKU beat St. Mary's. In the NCAA Tournament, North Texas took out 4 seed Purdue in our opening round game. Maybe C-USA deserved the Sun Belt's spot in the tournament, since y'all lost to Norfolk St. in their "First Four" match up.

By the way... I re-watched last season's Myrtle Beach Bowl. it was painful. App St. has a good football program rolling in Boone, and I am green with envy. But, when it comes to basketball, the Sun Belt just isn't a good league.



If the Sun Belt isn't a "good league" then the CUSA is also mediocre at its very best.

Over the last six years between CUSA/SBC/OVC/ASUN the conference RPIs fall like this:

CUSA – #14 / #13 / #14 / #15 / #23 / #22
SBC – #16 / #17 / #20 / #18 / #13 / #17
OVC – #22 / #20 / #18 / #21 / #25 / #21
ASUN – #26 / #21 / #30 / #30 / #24 / #28

And that has averaged:

CUSA: 16.833
SBC: 16.8333
OVC: 21.1666
ASUN: 26.5



SBC also doesn't try to hang its hat on basketball. CUSA likes to claim basketball superiority, and their top teams are decent, but overall y'all aren't the world beaters you think.

College basketball doesn't even use the RPI anymore. But even so, C-USA was trending up while the Sun Belt was at best stagnate.

Last season's NET rankings had half of all C-USA programs ranked in the Top 150. The Sun Belt only had one. Anyone can look at these numbers and tell you C-USA basketball is better than Sun Belt basketball.

Top 150 by conference

C-USA
#55 UNT
#71 LA Tech
#82 WKU
#83 UAB
#89 Marshall
#132 ODU
#143 UTEP

Sun Belt
#130 Goergia St.

This is the last I'll say on the matter. I'd hate to impede SMUstang from solving world hunger. 07-coffee3
(This post was last modified: 07-19-2021 03:20 PM by Side.Show.Joe.)
07-19-2021 03:16 PM
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