Some might categorize this as fantasy; others might enjoy it as a great what if of college football:

Imagine if Oklahoma and Oklahoma A&M (St) stayed in the SWC that they founded?

You get a classic line up of:

Oklahoma
Oklahoma St
SMU
TCU
Baylor
Rice
Texas
Texas A&M
Arkansas

Maybe they still add Texas Tech in the 50s and Houston in the 70s.

Would that group been strong enough to survive into the 21st century without defections?

Or are we simply reshuffling some of the chairs of an inevitable Big 12?

Speaking of which, what’s that mean for the MVIAA, forerunner of the the Big 8? How do the 5 big state schools cope with having the small private schools? Are they able to stay cogent or do we see them knocking on the doors of the SWC and Big 10?

Phillips University of Enid , Oklahoma was also a Member of the SWC


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I'm more curious where that would leave the Big 8. Would Colorado even join? There's no way they stick at 5 all through the 1990s.

Why did Oklahoma leave the SWC in the 1st place

(06-24-2021 09:41 PM)Mav Wrote:  I'm more curious where that would leave the Big 8. Would Colorado even join? There's no way they stick at 5 all through the 1990s.

I think they are forced to find replacements for Drake, Washington (St L), and Grinnell at some point.

The question is which direction do they go and when?

Do they look further west than Colorado? Maybe the go eastward for say Louisville, Cincinnati, and or Memphis? Maybe the consider other options like Wich St, Tulsa, or UNT?

If Oklahoma and OK St never left I think eventually the SWC would have picked off Kansas, Missouri, and Nebraska with Colorado joining the PAC much sooner

Slightly modified present-day scenario from here. This timeline isn't triggered by the Oklahoma schools staying in the SWC, but that is an early development in the timeline.

P5 Conferences

ACC (9-game conference schedule, 2 protected crossovers per team)
Atlantic: Clemson (UGA/GT), South Carolina (UGA/GT), Miami-FL (UF/FSU), Virginia Tech (UF/FSU), NC State (Duke/UNC), Virginia (Duke/UNC)
Coastal: Georgia (Clemson/SC), Georgia Tech (Clemson/SC), Florida (Miami/VT), Florida State (Miami/VT), Duke (NCSU/UVA), North Carolina (NCSU/UVA)

Big 12 (8-game conference schedule, no protected crossovers)
East: Illinois, Indiana, Minnesota, Northwestern, Purdue, Wisconsin
West: Iowa, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri, Nebraska

Big East (9-game conference schedule, 1 protected crossover per team)
North: Boston College (UMD), Michigan (OSU), Michigan State (WVU), Notre Dame (Pitt), Rutgers (Temple), Syracuse (PSU)
South: Maryland (BC), Ohio State (UMich), West Virginia (MSU), Pitt (ND), Temple (Rutgers), Penn State (Syracuse)

Pac-12 (9-game conference schedule, 2 protected crossovers per team)
Pacific: Arizona (ASU/Utah), Colorado (ASU/Utah), California (Stanford/USC), UCLA (Stanford/USC), Oregon (OSU/WSU), Washington (OSU/WSU)
Western: Arizona State (UA/CU), Utah (UA/CU), Stanford (Cal/UCLA), USC (Cal/UCLA), Oregon State (UO/UW), Washington State (UO/UW)

SEC (8-game conference schedule, no protected crossovers)
East: Alabama, Auburn, Kentucky, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Tennessee
West: Arkansas, LSU, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Texas, Texas A&M

Other I-A Conferences

Metro (8-game conference schedule, no protected crossovers)
North: Army, Buffalo, Cincinnati, Louisville, Marshall, Navy
South: Appalachian State, Central Florida, East Carolina, Georgia Southern, Old Dominion, South Florida

SWC (8-game conference schedule, no protected crossovers)
East: Arkansas State, Louisiana Tech, Louisiana-Lafayette, Memphis, Southern Miss, UAB
West: Baylor, Houston, TCU, Texas Tech, Tulsa, Wichita State

WAC (8-game conference schedule, no protected crossovers)
Mountain: Air Force, BYU, Colorado State, New Mexico, UTEP, Wyoming
Pacific: Boise State, Fresno State, Hawaii, Nevada, San Diego State, UNLV

~~~~~~

Major differences from our timeline

1910s
-- Eastern Athletic Conference (EAC) forms with Michigan Agricultural (later Michigan State), Notre Dame, Ohio State, Pittsburgh, Penn State, and Syracuse

1920s
-- SoCon forms without Maryland and West Virginia, which join EAC
-- Oklahoma and Oklahoma A&M (later Oklahoma State) do not leave SWC for MVIAA; breakup of MVIAA postponed

1930s
-- Florida, Georgia, and Georgia Tech remain with SoCon rather than joining SEC

1940s
-- Michigan from Western Conference to EAC; EAC renamed Big East
-- Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri, and Nebraska from MVIAA to Western Conference (renamed Big 12)
-- Colorado stays in the MSC

1950s
-- ACC forms with Florida, Georgia, Georgia Tech, and Virginia Tech but not Maryland

1970s
-- South Carolina sticks with ACC
-- Colorado joins the Pac-8/11 along with Arizona and Arizona State

1980s
-- Several schools drop football and leave D1 for D3 Magnolia League: Rice (SWC), SMU (SWC), Tulane (I-A Ind; NFB in Metro), Vanderbilt (SEC), and Wake Forest (ACC)
-- Arkansas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Texas, and Texas A&M from SWC to SEC
-- SWC adds Memphis, Southern Miss, Tulsa, and Wichita State (which does not drop FB); SWC no longer considered "power" conference

1990s
-- ACC adds Florida State and Miami
-- Big East adds Boston College, Rutgers, and Temple
-- Metro Conference adds football: Army, Central Florida, Cincinnati, East Carolina, Louisville, Marshall, Navy, and South Florida are charter FB members
-- SWC adds Arkansas State, Louisiana Tech, Southwestern Louisiana (later Louisiana-Lafayette), and UAB
-- WAC declines to add Rice, San Jose State, SMU, TCU, and Tulsa

2000s
-- Utah from WAC to Pac-11/12; WAC then adds Boise State and Nevada
-- Metro Conference adds Appalachian State, Buffalo, Georgia Southern, and Old Dominion

~~~~~~

Division I-A 1983

ACC (11): Clemson, Duke, Florida, Georgia, Georgia Tech, NC State, North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, Virginia Tech, Wake Forest

Big 12: Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, Northwestern, Purdue, Wisconsin

Big East (9): Maryland, Michigan, Michigan State, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, West Virginia

Pac-11: Arizona, Arizona State, California, Colorado, Oregon, Oregon State, Stanford, UCLA, USC, Washington, Washington State

SEC (8): Alabama, Auburn, Kentucky, LSU, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Tennessee, Vanderbilt

SWC (11): Arkansas, Baylor, Houston, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Rice, SMU, TCU, Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech

WAC (9): Air Force, BYU, Colorado State, Hawaii, New Mexico, San Diego State, Utah, UTEP, Wyoming

Notable I-A Indies (15): Army, Boston College, Cincinnati, East Carolina, Florida State, Louisville, Memphis, Miami-FL, Navy, Rutgers, Southern Miss, Temple, Tulane, Tulsa, Wichita State

~~~~~~

Division I-A 1996

ACC (12)
Atlantic: Clemson, Miami-FL, NC State, South Carolina, Virginia, Virginia Tech
Coastal: Duke, Florida, Florida State, Georgia, Georgia Tech, North Carolina

Big 12
East: Illinois, Indiana, Minnesota, Northwestern, Purdue, Wisconsin
West: Iowa, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri, Nebraska

Big East (12)
North: Boston College, Michigan, Michigan State, Notre Dame, Rutgers, Syracuse
South: Maryland, Ohio State, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Temple, West Virginia

Metro (8): Army, Central Florida, Cincinnati, East Carolina, Louisville, Marshall, Navy, South Florida

Pac-11: Arizona, Arizona State, California, Colorado, Oregon, Oregon State, Stanford, UCLA, USC, Washington, Washington State

SEC (12)
East: Alabama, Auburn, Kentucky, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Tennessee
West: Arkansas, LSU, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Texas, Texas A&M

SWC (8): Baylor, Houston, Memphis, Southern Miss, TCU, Texas Tech, Tulsa, Wichita State

WAC (11): Air Force, BYU, Colorado State, Fresno State, Hawaii, New Mexico, San Diego State, UNLV, Utah, UTEP, Wyoming

~~~~~~

D3 Magnolia League (present day)
Emory, Johns Hopkins, Rice, SMU, Tulane, Vanderbilt, Wake Forest, Washington-MO

Nerd: those conferences are PHENOMENAL!

(06-24-2021 09:49 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(06-24-2021 09:41 PM)Mav Wrote:  I'm more curious where that would leave the Big 8. Would Colorado even join? There's no way they stick at 5 all through the 1990s.

I think they are forced to find replacements for Drake, Washington (St L), and Grinnell at some point.

The question is which direction do they go and when?

Do they look further west than Colorado? Maybe the go eastward for say Louisville, Cincinnati, and or Memphis? Maybe the consider other options like Wich St, Tulsa, or UNT?

I think Wichita or Tulsa. I don't know how far UNT goes back... Travel was tough back then so I can't image them going too far for members if there were closer option. Washburn was in the mix in that time as well.

(06-24-2021 11:23 PM)Todor Wrote:  

(06-24-2021 09:49 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(06-24-2021 09:41 PM)Mav Wrote:  I'm more curious where that would leave the Big 8. Would Colorado even join? There's no way they stick at 5 all through the 1990s.

I think they are forced to find replacements for Drake, Washington (St L), and Grinnell at some point.

The question is which direction do they go and when?

Do they look further west than Colorado? Maybe the go eastward for say Louisville, Cincinnati, and or Memphis? Maybe the consider other options like Wich St, Tulsa, or UNT?

I think Wichita or Tulsa. I don't know how far UNT goes back... Travel was tough back then so I can't image them going too far for members if there were closer option. Washburn was in the mix in that time as well.

Tulsa was the best football choice at the time. They competed well with Arkansas and Oklahoma A&M.

For the MVIAA, I think Colorado and Tulsa are your two front runners to replace Grinnell, Drake, and Washington U.

Nebraska
Iowa St
Missouri
Kansas
Kansas St
Colorado
Tulsa

That’s only 7. If they need an 8th, I think they either go west with Wyoming or they look at 1 or more of Cincinnati/Louisville/Memphis.

If the SWC still loses Arkansas to the SEC, I think around 1996 you end up with a best of conference with elements of both the SWC and MVIAA—maybe 6 from each.

Sure, one of those conferences could raid the other to get to 12, but I think both sides would have a lot of fluff they’d have to address.

Southwestern TX was in the SWC as well.

(06-24-2021 10:42 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Slightly modified present-day scenario from here. This timeline isn't triggered by the Oklahoma schools staying in the SWC, but that is an early development in the timeline.

P5 Conferences

ACC (9-game conference schedule, 2 protected crossovers per team)
Atlantic: Clemson (UGA/GT), South Carolina (UGA/GT), Miami-FL (UF/FSU), Virginia Tech (UF/FSU), NC State (Duke/UNC), Virginia (Duke/UNC)
Coastal: Georgia (Clemson/SC), Georgia Tech (Clemson/SC), Florida (Miami/VT), Florida State (Miami/VT), Duke (NCSU/UVA), North Carolina (NCSU/UVA)

Big 12 (8-game conference schedule, no protected crossovers)
East: Illinois, Indiana, Minnesota, Northwestern, Purdue, Wisconsin
West: Iowa, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri, Nebraska

Big East (9-game conference schedule, 2 protected crossovers per team)
North: Boston College (UMD/Temple), Rutgers (Temple/WVU), Michigan (WVU/OSU), Michigan State (OSU/UMD), Notre Dame (PSU/Pitt), Syracuse (PSU/Pitt)
South: Maryland (MSU/BC), Temple (BC/Rutgers), West Virginia (Rutgers/UMich), Ohio State (UMich/MSU), Penn State (ND/Syracuse), Pitt (ND/Syracuse)

Pac-12 (9-game conference schedule, 2 protected crossovers per team)
Pacific: Arizona (ASU/Utah), Colorado (ASU/Utah), California (Stanford/USC), UCLA (Stanford/USC), Oregon (OSU/WSU), Washington (OSU/WSU)
Western: Arizona State (UA/CU), Utah (UA/CU), Stanford (Cal/UCLA), USC (Cal/UCLA), Oregon State (UO/UW), Washington State (UO/UW)

SEC (8-game conference schedule, no protected crossovers)
East: Alabama, Auburn, Kentucky, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Tennessee
West: Arkansas, LSU, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Texas, Texas A&M

Other I-A Conferences

Metro (8-game conference schedule, no protected crossovers)
North: Army, Buffalo, Cincinnati, Louisville, Marshall, Navy
South: Appalachian State, Central Florida, East Carolina, Georgia Southern, Old Dominion, South Florida

SWC (8-game conference schedule, no protected crossovers)
East: Arkansas State, Louisiana Tech, Louisiana-Lafayette, Memphis, Southern Miss, UAB
West: Baylor, Houston, TCU, Texas Tech, Tulsa, Wichita State

WAC (8-game conference schedule, no protected crossovers)
Mountain: Air Force, BYU, Colorado State, New Mexico, UTEP, Wyoming
Pacific: Boise State, Fresno State, Hawaii, Nevada, San Diego State, UNLV

~~~~~~

Major differences from our timeline

1910s
-- Eastern Athletic Conference (EAC) forms with Michigan Agricultural (later Michigan State), Notre Dame, Ohio State, Pittsburgh, Penn State, and Syracuse

1920s
-- SoCon forms without Maryland and West Virginia, which join EAC
-- Oklahoma and Oklahoma A&M (later Oklahoma State) do not leave SWC for MVIAA; breakup of MVIAA postponed

1930s
-- Florida, Georgia, and Georgia Tech remain with SoCon rather than joining SEC

1940s
-- Michigan from Western Conference to EAC; EAC renamed Big East
-- Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri, and Nebraska from MVIAA to Western Conference (renamed Big 12)

1950s
-- ACC forms with Florida, Georgia, Georgia Tech, and Virginia Tech but not Maryland

1970s
-- South Carolina sticks with ACC

1980s
-- Several schools drop football and leave D1 for D3 Magnolia League: Rice (SWC), SMU (SWC), Tulane (I-A Ind; NFB in Metro), Vanderbilt (SEC), and Wake Forest (ACC)
-- Arkansas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Texas, and Texas A&M from SWC to SEC
-- SWC adds Memphis, Southern Miss, Tulsa, and Wichita State (which does not drop FB); SWC no longer considered "power" conference

1990s
-- ACC adds Florida State and Miami
-- Big East adds Boston College, Rutgers, and Temple
-- Metro Conference adds football: Army, Central Florida, Cincinnati, East Carolina, Louisville, Marshall, Navy, and South Florida are charter FB members
-- SWC adds Arkansas State, Louisiana Tech, Southwestern Louisiana (later Louisiana-Lafayette), and UAB
-- WAC declines to add Rice, San Jose State, SMU, TCU, and Tulsa

2000s
-- Colorado and Utah from WAC to Pac-10/12; WAC replaces them with Boise State and Nevada
-- Metro Conference adds Appalachian State, Buffalo, Georgia Southern, and Old Dominion

~~~~~~

Division I-A 1983

ACC (11): Clemson, Duke, Florida, Georgia, Georgia Tech, NC State, North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, Virginia Tech, Wake Forest

Big 12: Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, Northwestern, Purdue, Wisconsin

Big East (9): Maryland, Michigan, Michigan State, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, West Virginia

Pac-10: Arizona, Arizona State, California, Oregon, Oregon State, Stanford, UCLA, USC, Washington, Washington State

SEC (8): Alabama, Auburn, Kentucky, LSU, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Tennessee, Vanderbilt

SWC (11): Arkansas, Baylor, Houston, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Rice, SMU, TCU, Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech

WAC (10): Air Force, BYU, Colorado, Colorado State, Hawaii, New Mexico, San Diego State, Utah, UTEP, Wyoming

Notable I-A Indies (15): Army, Boston College, Cincinnati, East Carolina, Florida State, Louisville, Memphis, Miami-FL, Navy, Rutgers, Southern Miss, Temple, Tulane, Tulsa, Wichita State

~~~~~~

Division I-A 1996

ACC (12)
Atlantic: Clemson, Miami-FL, NC State, South Carolina, Virginia, Virginia Tech
Coastal: Duke, Florida, Florida State, Georgia, Georgia Tech, North Carolina

Big 12
East: Illinois, Indiana, Minnesota, Northwestern, Purdue, Wisconsin
West: Iowa, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri, Nebraska

Big East (12)
North: Boston College, Michigan, Michigan State, Notre Dame, Rutgers, Syracuse
South: Maryland, Ohio State, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Temple, West Virginia

Metro (8): Army, Central Florida, Cincinnati, East Carolina, Louisville, Marshall, Navy, South Florida

Pac-10: Arizona, Arizona State, California, Oregon, Oregon State, Stanford, UCLA, USC, Washington, Washington State

SEC (12)
East: Alabama, Auburn, Kentucky, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Tennessee
West: Arkansas, LSU, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Texas, Texas A&M

SWC (8): Baylor, Houston, Memphis, Southern Miss, TCU, Texas Tech, Tulsa, Wichita State

WAC (12)
North: Air Force, BYU, Colorado, Colorado State, Utah, Wyoming
South: Fresno State, Hawaii, New Mexico, San Diego State, UNLV, UTEP

If Colorado were available back then the Pac-8 would have invited them back when they brought in the Arizona schools if not earlier. The only question would be whether the Pac-8 would go to 11 with Colorado and both AZ schools or if they would stop at 10 leaving ASU out.

(06-25-2021 06:53 PM)clpp01 Wrote:  

(06-24-2021 10:42 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Slightly modified present-day scenario from here. This timeline isn't triggered by the Oklahoma schools staying in the SWC, but that is an early development in the timeline.

P5 Conferences

ACC (9-game conference schedule, 2 protected crossovers per team)
Atlantic: Clemson (UGA/GT), South Carolina (UGA/GT), Miami-FL (UF/FSU), Virginia Tech (UF/FSU), NC State (Duke/UNC), Virginia (Duke/UNC)
Coastal: Georgia (Clemson/SC), Georgia Tech (Clemson/SC), Florida (Miami/VT), Florida State (Miami/VT), Duke (NCSU/UVA), North Carolina (NCSU/UVA)

Big 12 (8-game conference schedule, no protected crossovers)
East: Illinois, Indiana, Minnesota, Northwestern, Purdue, Wisconsin
West: Iowa, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri, Nebraska

Big East (9-game conference schedule, 2 protected crossovers per team)
North: Boston College (UMD/Temple), Rutgers (Temple/WVU), Michigan (WVU/OSU), Michigan State (OSU/UMD), Notre Dame (PSU/Pitt), Syracuse (PSU/Pitt)
South: Maryland (MSU/BC), Temple (BC/Rutgers), West Virginia (Rutgers/UMich), Ohio State (UMich/MSU), Penn State (ND/Syracuse), Pitt (ND/Syracuse)

Pac-12 (9-game conference schedule, 2 protected crossovers per team)
Pacific: Arizona (ASU/Utah), Colorado (ASU/Utah), California (Stanford/USC), UCLA (Stanford/USC), Oregon (OSU/WSU), Washington (OSU/WSU)
Western: Arizona State (UA/CU), Utah (UA/CU), Stanford (Cal/UCLA), USC (Cal/UCLA), Oregon State (UO/UW), Washington State (UO/UW)

SEC (8-game conference schedule, no protected crossovers)
East: Alabama, Auburn, Kentucky, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Tennessee
West: Arkansas, LSU, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Texas, Texas A&M

Other I-A Conferences

Metro (8-game conference schedule, no protected crossovers)
North: Army, Buffalo, Cincinnati, Louisville, Marshall, Navy
South: Appalachian State, Central Florida, East Carolina, Georgia Southern, Old Dominion, South Florida

SWC (8-game conference schedule, no protected crossovers)
East: Arkansas State, Louisiana Tech, Louisiana-Lafayette, Memphis, Southern Miss, UAB
West: Baylor, Houston, TCU, Texas Tech, Tulsa, Wichita State

WAC (8-game conference schedule, no protected crossovers)
Mountain: Air Force, BYU, Colorado State, New Mexico, UTEP, Wyoming
Pacific: Boise State, Fresno State, Hawaii, Nevada, San Diego State, UNLV

~~~~~~

Major differences from our timeline

1910s
-- Eastern Athletic Conference (EAC) forms with Michigan Agricultural (later Michigan State), Notre Dame, Ohio State, Pittsburgh, Penn State, and Syracuse

1920s
-- SoCon forms without Maryland and West Virginia, which join EAC
-- Oklahoma and Oklahoma A&M (later Oklahoma State) do not leave SWC for MVIAA; breakup of MVIAA postponed

1930s
-- Florida, Georgia, and Georgia Tech remain with SoCon rather than joining SEC

1940s
-- Michigan from Western Conference to EAC; EAC renamed Big East
-- Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri, and Nebraska from MVIAA to Western Conference (renamed Big 12)

1950s
-- ACC forms with Florida, Georgia, Georgia Tech, and Virginia Tech but not Maryland

1970s
-- South Carolina sticks with ACC

1980s
-- Several schools drop football and leave D1 for D3 Magnolia League: Rice (SWC), SMU (SWC), Tulane (I-A Ind; NFB in Metro), Vanderbilt (SEC), and Wake Forest (ACC)
-- Arkansas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Texas, and Texas A&M from SWC to SEC
-- SWC adds Memphis, Southern Miss, Tulsa, and Wichita State (which does not drop FB); SWC no longer considered "power" conference

1990s
-- ACC adds Florida State and Miami
-- Big East adds Boston College, Rutgers, and Temple
-- Metro Conference adds football: Army, Central Florida, Cincinnati, East Carolina, Louisville, Marshall, Navy, and South Florida are charter FB members
-- SWC adds Arkansas State, Louisiana Tech, Southwestern Louisiana (later Louisiana-Lafayette), and UAB
-- WAC declines to add Rice, San Jose State, SMU, TCU, and Tulsa

2000s
-- Colorado and Utah from WAC to Pac-10/12; WAC replaces them with Boise State and Nevada
-- Metro Conference adds Appalachian State, Buffalo, Georgia Southern, and Old Dominion

~~~~~~

Division I-A 1983

ACC (11): Clemson, Duke, Florida, Georgia, Georgia Tech, NC State, North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, Virginia Tech, Wake Forest

Big 12: Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, Northwestern, Purdue, Wisconsin

Big East (9): Maryland, Michigan, Michigan State, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, West Virginia

Pac-10: Arizona, Arizona State, California, Oregon, Oregon State, Stanford, UCLA, USC, Washington, Washington State

SEC (8): Alabama, Auburn, Kentucky, LSU, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Tennessee, Vanderbilt

SWC (11): Arkansas, Baylor, Houston, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Rice, SMU, TCU, Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech

WAC (10): Air Force, BYU, Colorado, Colorado State, Hawaii, New Mexico, San Diego State, Utah, UTEP, Wyoming

Notable I-A Indies (15): Army, Boston College, Cincinnati, East Carolina, Florida State, Louisville, Memphis, Miami-FL, Navy, Rutgers, Southern Miss, Temple, Tulane, Tulsa, Wichita State

~~~~~~

Division I-A 1996

ACC (12)
Atlantic: Clemson, Miami-FL, NC State, South Carolina, Virginia, Virginia Tech
Coastal: Duke, Florida, Florida State, Georgia, Georgia Tech, North Carolina

Big 12
East: Illinois, Indiana, Minnesota, Northwestern, Purdue, Wisconsin
West: Iowa, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri, Nebraska

Big East (12)
North: Boston College, Michigan, Michigan State, Notre Dame, Rutgers, Syracuse
South: Maryland, Ohio State, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Temple, West Virginia

Metro (8): Army, Central Florida, Cincinnati, East Carolina, Louisville, Marshall, Navy, South Florida

Pac-10: Arizona, Arizona State, California, Oregon, Oregon State, Stanford, UCLA, USC, Washington, Washington State

SEC (12)
East: Alabama, Auburn, Kentucky, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Tennessee
West: Arkansas, LSU, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Texas, Texas A&M

SWC (8): Baylor, Houston, Memphis, Southern Miss, TCU, Texas Tech, Tulsa, Wichita State

WAC (12)
North: Air Force, BYU, Colorado, Colorado State, Utah, Wyoming
South: Fresno State, Hawaii, New Mexico, San Diego State, UNLV, UTEP

If Colorado were available back then the Pac-8 would have invited them back when they brought in the Arizona schools if not earlier. The only question would be whether the Pac-8 would go to 11 with Colorado and both AZ schools or if they would stop at 10 leaving ASU out.

I think they would have gone with 11

(06-25-2021 06:53 PM)clpp01 Wrote:  If Colorado were available back then the Pac-8 would have invited them back when they brought in the Arizona schools if not earlier. The only question would be whether the Pac-8 would go to 11 with Colorado and both AZ schools or if they would stop at 10 leaving ASU out.

Fair point. Change made!

(06-25-2021 08:21 PM)solohawks Wrote:  

(06-25-2021 06:53 PM)clpp01 Wrote:  

(06-24-2021 10:42 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Slightly modified present-day scenario from here. This timeline isn't triggered by the Oklahoma schools staying in the SWC, but that is an early development in the timeline.

P5 Conferences

ACC (9-game conference schedule, 2 protected crossovers per team)
Atlantic: Clemson (UGA/GT), South Carolina (UGA/GT), Miami-FL (UF/FSU), Virginia Tech (UF/FSU), NC State (Duke/UNC), Virginia (Duke/UNC)
Coastal: Georgia (Clemson/SC), Georgia Tech (Clemson/SC), Florida (Miami/VT), Florida State (Miami/VT), Duke (NCSU/UVA), North Carolina (NCSU/UVA)

Big 12 (8-game conference schedule, no protected crossovers)
East: Illinois, Indiana, Minnesota, Northwestern, Purdue, Wisconsin
West: Iowa, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri, Nebraska

Big East (9-game conference schedule, 2 protected crossovers per team)
North: Boston College (UMD/Temple), Rutgers (Temple/WVU), Michigan (WVU/OSU), Michigan State (OSU/UMD), Notre Dame (PSU/Pitt), Syracuse (PSU/Pitt)
South: Maryland (MSU/BC), Temple (BC/Rutgers), West Virginia (Rutgers/UMich), Ohio State (UMich/MSU), Penn State (ND/Syracuse), Pitt (ND/Syracuse)

Pac-12 (9-game conference schedule, 2 protected crossovers per team)
Pacific: Arizona (ASU/Utah), Colorado (ASU/Utah), California (Stanford/USC), UCLA (Stanford/USC), Oregon (OSU/WSU), Washington (OSU/WSU)
Western: Arizona State (UA/CU), Utah (UA/CU), Stanford (Cal/UCLA), USC (Cal/UCLA), Oregon State (UO/UW), Washington State (UO/UW)

SEC (8-game conference schedule, no protected crossovers)
East: Alabama, Auburn, Kentucky, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Tennessee
West: Arkansas, LSU, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Texas, Texas A&M

Other I-A Conferences

Metro (8-game conference schedule, no protected crossovers)
North: Army, Buffalo, Cincinnati, Louisville, Marshall, Navy
South: Appalachian State, Central Florida, East Carolina, Georgia Southern, Old Dominion, South Florida

SWC (8-game conference schedule, no protected crossovers)
East: Arkansas State, Louisiana Tech, Louisiana-Lafayette, Memphis, Southern Miss, UAB
West: Baylor, Houston, TCU, Texas Tech, Tulsa, Wichita State

WAC (8-game conference schedule, no protected crossovers)
Mountain: Air Force, BYU, Colorado State, New Mexico, UTEP, Wyoming
Pacific: Boise State, Fresno State, Hawaii, Nevada, San Diego State, UNLV

~~~~~~

Major differences from our timeline

1910s
-- Eastern Athletic Conference (EAC) forms with Michigan Agricultural (later Michigan State), Notre Dame, Ohio State, Pittsburgh, Penn State, and Syracuse

1920s
-- SoCon forms without Maryland and West Virginia, which join EAC
-- Oklahoma and Oklahoma A&M (later Oklahoma State) do not leave SWC for MVIAA; breakup of MVIAA postponed

1930s
-- Florida, Georgia, and Georgia Tech remain with SoCon rather than joining SEC

1940s
-- Michigan from Western Conference to EAC; EAC renamed Big East
-- Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri, and Nebraska from MVIAA to Western Conference (renamed Big 12)

1950s
-- ACC forms with Florida, Georgia, Georgia Tech, and Virginia Tech but not Maryland

1970s
-- South Carolina sticks with ACC

1980s
-- Several schools drop football and leave D1 for D3 Magnolia League: Rice (SWC), SMU (SWC), Tulane (I-A Ind; NFB in Metro), Vanderbilt (SEC), and Wake Forest (ACC)
-- Arkansas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Texas, and Texas A&M from SWC to SEC
-- SWC adds Memphis, Southern Miss, Tulsa, and Wichita State (which does not drop FB); SWC no longer considered "power" conference

1990s
-- ACC adds Florida State and Miami
-- Big East adds Boston College, Rutgers, and Temple
-- Metro Conference adds football: Army, Central Florida, Cincinnati, East Carolina, Louisville, Marshall, Navy, and South Florida are charter FB members
-- SWC adds Arkansas State, Louisiana Tech, Southwestern Louisiana (later Louisiana-Lafayette), and UAB
-- WAC declines to add Rice, San Jose State, SMU, TCU, and Tulsa

2000s
-- Colorado and Utah from WAC to Pac-10/12; WAC replaces them with Boise State and Nevada
-- Metro Conference adds Appalachian State, Buffalo, Georgia Southern, and Old Dominion

~~~~~~

Division I-A 1983

ACC (11): Clemson, Duke, Florida, Georgia, Georgia Tech, NC State, North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, Virginia Tech, Wake Forest

Big 12: Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, Northwestern, Purdue, Wisconsin

Big East (9): Maryland, Michigan, Michigan State, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, West Virginia

Pac-10: Arizona, Arizona State, California, Oregon, Oregon State, Stanford, UCLA, USC, Washington, Washington State

SEC (8): Alabama, Auburn, Kentucky, LSU, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Tennessee, Vanderbilt

SWC (11): Arkansas, Baylor, Houston, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Rice, SMU, TCU, Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech

WAC (10): Air Force, BYU, Colorado, Colorado State, Hawaii, New Mexico, San Diego State, Utah, UTEP, Wyoming

Notable I-A Indies (15): Army, Boston College, Cincinnati, East Carolina, Florida State, Louisville, Memphis, Miami-FL, Navy, Rutgers, Southern Miss, Temple, Tulane, Tulsa, Wichita State

~~~~~~

Division I-A 1996

ACC (12)
Atlantic: Clemson, Miami-FL, NC State, South Carolina, Virginia, Virginia Tech
Coastal: Duke, Florida, Florida State, Georgia, Georgia Tech, North Carolina

Big 12
East: Illinois, Indiana, Minnesota, Northwestern, Purdue, Wisconsin
West: Iowa, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri, Nebraska

Big East (12)
North: Boston College, Michigan, Michigan State, Notre Dame, Rutgers, Syracuse
South: Maryland, Ohio State, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Temple, West Virginia

Metro (8): Army, Central Florida, Cincinnati, East Carolina, Louisville, Marshall, Navy, South Florida

Pac-10: Arizona, Arizona State, California, Oregon, Oregon State, Stanford, UCLA, USC, Washington, Washington State

SEC (12)
East: Alabama, Auburn, Kentucky, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Tennessee
West: Arkansas, LSU, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Texas, Texas A&M

SWC (9): Baylor, Houston, Memphis, Southern Miss, TCU, SMU, Texas Tech, Tulsa, Wichita State

WAC (12)
North: Air Force, BYU, Colorado, Colorado State, Utah, Wyoming
South: Fresno State, Hawaii, New Mexico, San Diego State, UNLV, UTEP

If Colorado were available back then the Pac-8 would have invited them back when they brought in the Arizona schools if not earlier. The only question would be whether the Pac-8 would go to 11 with Colorado and both AZ schools or if they would stop at 10 leaving ASU out.

I think they would have gone with 11

SMU belongs in the SWC. I’m not sure that Wichita State does. Also Tulane is more deserving than Southern Mississippi. And Rice should be considered.

(06-26-2021 08:57 AM)SMUstang Wrote:  SMU belongs in the SWC. I’m not sure that Wichita State does. Also Tulane is more deserving than Southern Mississippi. And Rice should be considered.

If you read the timeline, you can see where they went. I added this to the post to make it clearer:

D3 Magnolia League (present day)
Emory, Johns Hopkins, Rice, SMU, Tulane, Vanderbilt, Wake Forest, Washington-MO

Posted this before but it’s actually pretty plausible as a scenario as a way the SWC could have evolved and probably survived

Alternative History SWC:

When formed in 1914, the original SWC looked like this:

Texas A&M

UT-Austin

Arkansas

Baylor

Rice

Oklahoma

Oklahoma A&M (later OSU)


(Southwestern was also part of the original 1915 group but would only be a member for one year so I'm ignoring them)

Invitations were also issued to LSU and Ole Miss but they declined. In this scenario they accept and the Oklahoma schools stay as members. SMU and TCU also both join by 1923 like in real life.

So in 1924 the conference looks like this:

Texas A&M
TCU
UT-Austin
SMU
Baylor
Rice
Arkansas
Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
LSU
Ole Miss

Nebraska and then Kansas, Missouri are later added to form a 14 team super SWC that looks like this today (with permanent opposite division opponent in parenthesis)



Texas A&M (Nebraska)
UT-Austin (Oklahoma)
Arkansas (LSU)
SMU (Ole Miss)
TCU (Oklahoma State)
Baylor (Missouri)
Rice (Kansas)

(06-24-2021 09:49 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(06-24-2021 09:41 PM)Mav Wrote:  I'm more curious where that would leave the Big 8. Would Colorado even join? There's no way they stick at 5 all through the 1990s.

I think they are forced to find replacements for Drake, Washington (St L), and Grinnell at some point.

The question is which direction do they go and when?

Do they look further west than Colorado? Maybe the go eastward for say Louisville, Cincinnati, and or Memphis? Maybe the consider other options like Wich St, Tulsa, or UNT?

Of course UNT would have wanted a spot in the Big 8. The SWC never came calling. Since UNT was playing as an independent in 1919, and joined the Texas Intercollegiate Athletic Association in 1922, I bet they would have jumped at the chance.

We tried to get a spot in the SWC in the '50's but the spot went to Texas Tech, despite the fact that we had been playing football even before Texas Tech was founded, and in our only meeting (1952) we beat the Red Raiders handily by a score of 34-19. Today the all time series between UNT and Texas Tech stands at 4 wins each. In the '70's UNT sought a spot in the SWC, but was passed over for Houston, despite the fact that North Texas dominated the series against the Cougars. At the time UNT held a 7-3 record against Houston. In 1975, our last meeting before UH joined the SWC, UNT beat Houston by a score of 28-0.

With TCU and SMU already in the SWC, there was no chance for UNT to ever receive a SWC invitation. Three teams in the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex was just never going to happen. The Big 8 would have been great for UNT.