(06-19-2021 04:20 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(06-18-2021 06:59 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(06-18-2021 06:25 PM)Statefan Wrote:  DFW HOYA Online
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Post: #21RE: Old Big East/Atlantic 10 History
Maryland is an interesting story. The Terrapins peaked in the early 1950's in the Southern Conference, and thus was a good add for the new Atlantic Coast Conference. Had they not been as strong, the Terrapins might have remained in the Southern alongside West Virginia, George Washington, VMI, Richmond, and the like.

The next candidate for the ACC would have been the then-second largest school in Virginia, also a member of the SoCon: William & Mary.
"Where would you want to go to to a tournament for five days, Greensboro or New York City? Let me think about that one and get back to you." --Jim Boeheim
(This post was last modified: Yesterday 10:39 AM by DFW HOYA.
What are you smoklng?

MD, Duke, and Clemson formed the ACC to dump the William and Mary's of the SoCon.

Damn, just damn

VT was twice the enrollment of both William and Mary. Bill and Mary's cheating scandal was not forgotten a couple of years after the fact in 1953.

Given that MD, Duke, and Clemson formed the ACC and specifically kept VT out over animosity over the Football Bowl Ban, had Maryland not been in the ACC, then VT is admitted on a 4-3 vote.

Virginia Tech was a considerably smaller school in 1953 than it is today--it was still a corps of cadets school with a 17,000 seat stadium. Mr. Jefferson's University was not going to support adding the Gobblers (it took some pressure from the Governor to get to Virginia to support Tech to join the ACC in 2003), so who was the ACC's next expansion pick?

You are correct it wasn't William & Mary. W&M was in brief discussions when South Carolina left in 1971, but I found no evidence they were in discussion at the start. However, I had to double check this next one to believe it. Check this article to see who the ACC was going to take in place of Virginia...

http://www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/images/penn_103.jpg

That article is from the Washington Post and written by a new cub reporter who was a big NC State fan. Articles about the ACC out of the WP always have to be taken with a grain of salt because they usually have info only from MD and UVa.

In 1953 with MD and UVa at the table UNC made a motion to add VT and it died 4-4. Subtract MD and UVa from the equation and there is no doubt that VT would have moved with Duke, UNC, NC State, WF, SC, and Clemson. Your suggestion of the ACC adding William and Mary when they were as much of the reason for the exit from the SoCon as the Bowl Ban and West Virginia is factually incorrect.

Penn was never going to join the ACC. That was a sportswriters fantasy that any of the real news people could debunk. Penn was not going to join a segregated athletic conference - end. Penn effectively de-emphasised football in 1956 when the joined the Ivy and replaces a hall of fame coach with a moron.

The article you site is speculation without any input from SC, Clemson, WF, or UNC. Politically the only feesbile additions would have been Miami, Georgia, and Florida but in that group, Georgia only had a football relationship with Clemson. Miami and Florida had been playing WF, NC State, UNC, MD, Clemson, and SC for decades. Without UVa in the league, MD could not have controlled a seven member conference because they needed UVa's vote.

Despite the relative distance by train, Miami would have been coaxed into the league without MD's ability to piss on expansion to the South.

What you also don't seem to get is that UVa had no where to go in the 1950's because UVa was the most Jim Crow school in the conference. Only the SEC would have taken them and they might have taken them to replace Tulane or GT but why would the SEC need that in the 1960's?

Don’t forget Carolina brought up West Virginia as well. VT and WVU were the only schools brought up in an official capacity.

esayem: Not inviting WVU and VT to be founders of the ACC is one of the great what ifs and one where I think the ACC Would have been stronger in the long run:

Those 2 probably vote against the legislation that upped the minimum SAT scores that sent SC out the door.

The ACC enters the 1989-1990 realignment 10 members strong. If they are smart, they take Florida St and Miami before the SEC can and that great rivalry becomes part of the ACC slate and they meet twice a year many times in the 90s and early 00s in the ACC CCG.

This has a radical impact on the landscape of the eastern independents: BC, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, and Temple. I think they have to consider staying pseudo-independent with a scheduling alliance with ND or start bringing in C-USA schools as football independents

Muskie: could they persuade Villanova and Georgetown to elevate?

(06-20-2021 06:39 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Muskie: could they persuade Villanova and Georgetown to elevate?

Could the ACC have? Maybe.

But highly unlikely.

(06-20-2021 05:43 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  esayem: Not inviting WVU and VT to be founders of the ACC is one of the great what ifs and one where I think the ACC Would have been stronger in the long run:

Those 2 probably vote against the legislation that upped the minimum SAT scores that sent SC out the door.

The ACC enters the 1989-1990 realignment 10 members strong. If they are smart, they take Florida St and Miami before the SEC can and that great rivalry becomes part of the ACC slate and they meet twice a year many times in the 90s and early 00s in the ACC CCG.

This has a radical impact on the landscape of the eastern independents: BC, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, and Temple. I think they have to consider staying pseudo-independent with a scheduling alliance with ND or start bringing in C-USA schools as football independents

No, VT definitely votes for the 800 SAT rule. No question at all about that as Walter Newman was the VPI Chancellor at the time. Remember West Va did not even draw a second when Carolina put them up, VT went down on a 4-4 vote with MD and Clemson still mad as hell at them. MD and UVa have an existential problem with West Virginia that was never going to be solved.

The football relationship between West Va and the ACC is non-existent. Prior to the ACC formation Wake Forest, Clemson, UNC, and Duke had NEVER played West Virginia in football. As an Independent UVa played them between 43 and 50. Georgia Tech has never played them except in bowl games.

The ACC voting in West Virginia would have been like the 13 colonies extending an invite to Haiti or Grand Columbia in the 1780's.

There were efforts made in the early 1960's to bring VT back, but it was going to take 7 of 8 votes to approve that once the ACC bylaws were written to require a 3/4ths majority to add a school. That meant one of MD and UVa had to vote for them. That meant that UNC, Duke, SC, WF, and NC State had to be willing to give up 180 ACC Basketball Tournament Books each. One of the reasons GT got in was that Rams Club and Iron Duke members could join the GT Booster Club in 1979 and qualify for basketball tournament books.

"Big" expansion of the ACC in the 1960's-1980's needed a 24,000 seat basketball arena for the tournament or it needed the basketball tournament to cease being the end all be all. Expansion of the NCAA tournament addressed part of that in the mid 1980's. Even then, no one north of the Mason Dixon line is joining the ACC prior to Duke's and UVa's defacto athletic integration which did not happen until the early 1970's. No northern school with a bunch of black kids would have taken that leap until the late 1970's so no reason to pursue Penn State or Pitt in the 1960's and 1970's.

The "acceptable" pool for expansion or inclusion in 1954 was always Virginia, GT, UGa, Florida, Miami, Virginia Tech, Vanderbilt, Tennessee, and Kentucky. FSU comes a little later. By 1985 that list expands to include Penn State, Pitt, ND, Syracuse, and BC.

(06-20-2021 06:39 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Muskie: could they persuade Villanova and Georgetown to elevate?

How do the two of them - as small as WF - establish a successful p-5 program in the heart of metro areas with direct competition from existing P-5's as well as 4 major professional franchises? Temple and Maryland aside, the Eagles, Phillies, 76's, Flyers, Redskins, Nationals, Bullets, and Capitals make that impossible.

Elevation is one thing, but you are asking for a miracle.

I meant during 89-90s realignment, as mentioned in the post above mine.

(06-20-2021 06:39 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Muskie: could they persuade Villanova and Georgetown to elevate?

DC and Philadelphia were and still are very crowded sports markets. I think it would have been hard to elevate those programs

(06-20-2021 06:39 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Muskie: could they persuade Villanova and Georgetown to elevate?

Philadelphia was never going to be an ACC town.

Georgetown is the kind of private school which the Clemsons and FSU's would not want to deal with--they would see Georgetown as just another BC competitively. By contrast, they could have picked up Navy football-only and chose not to do so.

(06-20-2021 06:39 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  could they persuade Villanova and Georgetown to elevate?

I think Villanova could have continued at the 1-A/FBS level had their leadership not nuked the program in the early 80's. Eventually they would have had to address their stadium issues. They mulled over jumping to 1-A/FBS all throughout the 90's, but finally decided against it.

Georgetown: no

George Washington didn't have the fan support, but they were playing at RFK before they dropped the sport.

Will not have a laptop for sometime and will be away for sometime, but like to comment on UMass old history the way I've heard them UMass has played football for a century and a half. Was division 1 before the split and lost be an extra point in the Tangerine Bowl against Eastern Carolina in 1964. Jack Leaman was an excellent bb coach and was the good soldier that had his recruiting budget more or less after Doctor J. Football was the sport, but the 1973-74 recession was bad in Mass with Raytheon and other defense business after the Vietnam War. And the corruption at the time in the excessive building cost and Boston pissing on UMass we did not go single A. McPherson was mad as promised and left for Syracuse and the pros. We had additional seating and 20k for Boston College home game. Destroyed them once.. It would have been expensive to permanently add seating So back to page one. UMass was football and would have been A10. Basketball had sucess before Cal but was terrible for over a decade between Jack having his budget cut and the arrival of Cal .

Sent from my SM-G930VL using CSNbbs mobile app

(06-21-2021 06:21 PM)esayem Wrote:  I think Villanova could have continued at the 1-A/FBS level had their leadership not nuked the program in the early 80's. Eventually they would have had to address their stadium issues. They mulled over jumping to 1-A/FBS all throughout the 90's, but finally decided against it.

Georgetown: no

George Washington didn't have the fan support, but they were playing at RFK before they dropped the sport.

Georgetown always gets a quick "no" from a lot of folks, but if they committed to it, they would surprise people.

(06-21-2021 09:13 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(06-21-2021 06:21 PM)esayem Wrote:  I think Villanova could have continued at the 1-A/FBS level had their leadership not nuked the program in the early 80's. Eventually they would have had to address their stadium issues. They mulled over jumping to 1-A/FBS all throughout the 90's, but finally decided against it.

Georgetown: no

George Washington didn't have the fan support, but they were playing at RFK before they dropped the sport.

Georgetown always gets a quick "no" from a lot of folks, but if they committed to it, they would surprise people.

I don’t doubt it, it’s a tremendous school with a lot of students, I just haven’t seen the desire and I don’t know why they dropped back in the day. Fordham and Holy Cross are two others that could have continued. I actually believe Fordham received the money from donors to continue the football program, but the Father in charge said it was too late. Something to that effect.

(06-21-2021 09:21 PM)esayem Wrote:  I don’t doubt it, it’s a tremendous school with a lot of students, I just haven’t seen the desire and I don’t know why they dropped back in the day. Fordham and Holy Cross are two others that could have continued. I actually believe Fordham received the money from donors to continue the football program, but the Father in charge said it was too late. Something to that effect.

Short answer: It was a money grab by the school's president. The Hoyas were in the Sun Bowl the previous season and sank to 2-7 the next year.

Longer answer: Georgetown had trouble scheduling home games at Griffith Stadium (the pro stadium prior to RFK). Despite averaging 16,000 a game as late as 1946, the Hoyas could only schedule most home games on Friday nights. Some years GU got as few as three home games a year and traveled to places like Tulsa, Miami, and St. Louis to fill the schedule, absent a conference of its own.

(06-18-2021 11:33 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(06-18-2021 10:56 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Had Penn St got their Eastern conference and Maryland was in it, I think there are some very interesting implications for the ACC and SEC.

If the ACC doesn’t replace Maryland, they enter the 1989-1990 expansion in a weak spot:

UVA, UNC, NC St, Duke, WF, Clemson, GT

These schools are Indy: VT, SC, Miami, Florida St

If the ACC is that weak, maybe FSU isn’t interested and goes to the SEC. at this point, the ACC would HAVE to add VT and SC and hope to win out in a competition for Miami against the Eastern Conference.

Florida State joined the ACC for geographic expediency and to dominate the conference. I would think it'd be more attractive without Maryland for at least the former reason.

Why would Maryland have the left ACC in the 80’s/90’s, without the filthy B1G lucre, to join up with Temple, Pitt, Rutgers, BC, Syracuse, WVU and Penn State? I don’t see it. Even if Paterno had gotten his Eastern League I think it falls apart when the ACC and B1G consider expansion. Perhaps Penn State still goes to the B1G, but maybe they join the ACC in 1990 with FSU, and seeing the SEC going for a CCG, the ACC also adds Miami and Syracuse to get to 12.
ACC North: Penn State, Syracuse, Maryland, Virginia, Duke, North Carolina
ACC South: NCSU, Wake, Clemson, GT, FSU, Miami.

BC, Pitt, Temple, Rutgers and WVU backfill with VPI, UConn and Louisville in this scenario until the ACC adds BC and Pitt to get to 14 in the mid 2010s. Then Temple, Rutgers, WVU, VPI, UConn and Louisville add some combination of UMass, Cincy, Memphis, ECU or the directional Florida’s.

ACC North: Syracuse(1), BC(2), Pitt(3), Penn State(4), Maryland(5), Miami(6), Wake(7)
ACC South: NC State(1), GT(2), UNC(3), Clemson(4), Virginia(5), FSU(6), Duke(7)

(Numbers in parentheses are permanent cross-division rivals)

(06-22-2021 09:31 AM)CarlSmithCenter Wrote:  

(06-18-2021 11:33 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(06-18-2021 10:56 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Had Penn St got their Eastern conference and Maryland was in it, I think there are some very interesting implications for the ACC and SEC.

If the ACC doesn’t replace Maryland, they enter the 1989-1990 expansion in a weak spot:

UVA, UNC, NC St, Duke, WF, Clemson, GT

These schools are Indy: VT, SC, Miami, Florida St

If the ACC is that weak, maybe FSU isn’t interested and goes to the SEC. at this point, the ACC would HAVE to add VT and SC and hope to win out in a competition for Miami against the Eastern Conference.

Florida State joined the ACC for geographic expediency and to dominate the conference. I would think it'd be more attractive without Maryland for at least the former reason.

Why would Maryland have the left ACC in the 80’s/90’s, without the filthy B1G lucre, to join up with Temple, Pitt, Rutgers, BC, Syracuse, WVU and Penn State? I don’t see it. Even if Paterno had gotten his Eastern League I think it falls apart when the ACC and B1G consider expansion. Perhaps Penn State still goes to the B1G, but maybe they join the ACC in 1990 with FSU, and seeing the SEC going for a CCG, the ACC also adds Miami and Syracuse to get to 12.
ACC North: Penn State, Syracuse, Maryland, Virginia, Duke, North Carolina
ACC South: NCSU, Wake, Clemson, GT, FSU, Miami.

BC, Pitt, Temple, Rutgers and WVU backfill with VPI, UConn and Louisville in this scenario until the ACC adds BC and Pitt to get to 14 in the mid 2010s. Then Temple, Rutgers, WVU, VPI, UConn and Louisville add some combination of UMass, Cincy, Memphis, ECU or the directional Florida’s.

ACC North: Syracuse(1), BC(2), Pitt(3), Penn State(4), Maryland(5), Miami(6), Wake(7)
ACC South: NC State(1), GT(2), UNC(3), Clemson(4), Virginia(5), FSU(6), Duke(7)

(Numbers in parentheses are permanent cross-division rivals)

While I’m not knowledgeable on the disposition of the Maryland administration in the late 70s-early 80s, Penn St viewed Maryland as a school they wanted in the Eastern All Sports League and they were playing the Terps regularly.

Maryland and the SC schools were always outsiders in the ACC—from it’s founding, all the power was in the hands of the NC schools. Maybe Maryland would have seen the Joe Pa Conference as a way to escape Tobacco Road.

(06-22-2021 09:55 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(06-22-2021 09:31 AM)CarlSmithCenter Wrote:  

(06-18-2021 11:33 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(06-18-2021 10:56 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Had Penn St got their Eastern conference and Maryland was in it, I think there are some very interesting implications for the ACC and SEC.

If the ACC doesn’t replace Maryland, they enter the 1989-1990 expansion in a weak spot:

UVA, UNC, NC St, Duke, WF, Clemson, GT

These schools are Indy: VT, SC, Miami, Florida St

If the ACC is that weak, maybe FSU isn’t interested and goes to the SEC. at this point, the ACC would HAVE to add VT and SC and hope to win out in a competition for Miami against the Eastern Conference.

Florida State joined the ACC for geographic expediency and to dominate the conference. I would think it'd be more attractive without Maryland for at least the former reason.

Why would Maryland have the left ACC in the 80’s/90’s, without the filthy B1G lucre, to join up with Temple, Pitt, Rutgers, BC, Syracuse, WVU and Penn State? I don’t see it. Even if Paterno had gotten his Eastern League I think it falls apart when the ACC and B1G consider expansion. Perhaps Penn State still goes to the B1G, but maybe they join the ACC in 1990 with FSU, and seeing the SEC going for a CCG, the ACC also adds Miami and Syracuse to get to 12.
ACC North: Penn State, Syracuse, Maryland, Virginia, Duke, North Carolina
ACC South: NCSU, Wake, Clemson, GT, FSU, Miami.

BC, Pitt, Temple, Rutgers and WVU backfill with VPI, UConn and Louisville in this scenario until the ACC adds BC and Pitt to get to 14 in the mid 2010s. Then Temple, Rutgers, WVU, VPI, UConn and Louisville add some combination of UMass, Cincy, Memphis, ECU or the directional Florida’s.

ACC North: Syracuse(1), BC(2), Pitt(3), Penn State(4), Maryland(5), Miami(6), Wake(7)
ACC South: NC State(1), GT(2), UNC(3), Clemson(4), Virginia(5), FSU(6), Duke(7)

(Numbers in parentheses are permanent cross-division rivals)

While I’m not knowledgeable on the disposition of the Maryland administration in the late 70s-early 80s, Penn St viewed Maryland as a school they wanted in the Eastern All Sports League and they were playing the Terps regularly.

Maryland and the SC schools were always outsiders in the ACC—from it’s founding, all the power was in the hands of the NC schools. Maybe Maryland would have seen the Joe Pa Conference as a way to escape Tobacco Road.

Since MD founded the ACC with Duke and Clemson, and MD negotiated UVa's return in order to keep West Va and VT out, and Bob James of MD was the second ACC commissioner and served from 71 to 87, and from 1976 to 1980 UNC's AD was Bill Cobey whose father had been AD at MD, how is it that Maryland was "always on the outside"? Then answer is Maryland was never on the outside until Bob James died and Gene Corrigan retired. When John Swofford was made ACC commissioner, only then was MD "outside".

(06-22-2021 12:17 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(06-22-2021 09:55 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(06-22-2021 09:31 AM)CarlSmithCenter Wrote:  

(06-18-2021 11:33 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(06-18-2021 10:56 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Had Penn St got their Eastern conference and Maryland was in it, I think there are some very interesting implications for the ACC and SEC.

If the ACC doesn’t replace Maryland, they enter the 1989-1990 expansion in a weak spot:

UVA, UNC, NC St, Duke, WF, Clemson, GT

These schools are Indy: VT, SC, Miami, Florida St

If the ACC is that weak, maybe FSU isn’t interested and goes to the SEC. at this point, the ACC would HAVE to add VT and SC and hope to win out in a competition for Miami against the Eastern Conference.

Florida State joined the ACC for geographic expediency and to dominate the conference. I would think it'd be more attractive without Maryland for at least the former reason.

Why would Maryland have the left ACC in the 80’s/90’s, without the filthy B1G lucre, to join up with Temple, Pitt, Rutgers, BC, Syracuse, WVU and Penn State? I don’t see it. Even if Paterno had gotten his Eastern League I think it falls apart when the ACC and B1G consider expansion. Perhaps Penn State still goes to the B1G, but maybe they join the ACC in 1990 with FSU, and seeing the SEC going for a CCG, the ACC also adds Miami and Syracuse to get to 12.
ACC North: Penn State, Syracuse, Maryland, Virginia, Duke, North Carolina
ACC South: NCSU, Wake, Clemson, GT, FSU, Miami.

BC, Pitt, Temple, Rutgers and WVU backfill with VPI, UConn and Louisville in this scenario until the ACC adds BC and Pitt to get to 14 in the mid 2010s. Then Temple, Rutgers, WVU, VPI, UConn and Louisville add some combination of UMass, Cincy, Memphis, ECU or the directional Florida’s.

ACC North: Syracuse(1), BC(2), Pitt(3), Penn State(4), Maryland(5), Miami(6), Wake(7)
ACC South: NC State(1), GT(2), UNC(3), Clemson(4), Virginia(5), FSU(6), Duke(7)

(Numbers in parentheses are permanent cross-division rivals)

While I’m not knowledgeable on the disposition of the Maryland administration in the late 70s-early 80s, Penn St viewed Maryland as a school they wanted in the Eastern All Sports League and they were playing the Terps regularly.

Maryland and the SC schools were always outsiders in the ACC—from it’s founding, all the power was in the hands of the NC schools. Maybe Maryland would have seen the Joe Pa Conference as a way to escape Tobacco Road.

Since MD founded the ACC with Duke and Clemson, and MD negotiated UVa's return in order to keep West Va and VT out, and Bob James of MD was the second ACC commissioner and served from 71 to 87, and from 1976 to 1980 UNC's AD was Bill Cobey whose father had been AD at MD, how is it that Maryland was "always on the outside"? Then answer is Maryland was never on the outside until Bob James died and Gene Corrigan retired. When John Swofford was made ACC commissioner, only then was MD "outside".

UVA, VPI and UMD were members of The Sinful Seven:

Quote: Until 1948, when the NCAA unanimously passed what was called "the Sanity Code," a dramatic limitation of the benefits that athletes could receive. Athletes could be provided with free tuition and one free "training-table meal" per day while they were in season. There was no Committee on Infractions or other enforcement mechanisms.

In 1950, however, the NCAA sent questionnaires to member institutions to see how the Code was being implemented and seven schools chose to be honest. The media dubbed them – Villanova, Maryland, Boston College, Virginia, Virginia Tech, The Citadel and VMI – "the Sinful Seven," and only one of them, Maryland, was a major football power at the time. Of the seven, four had losing records in 1949, with Maryland, Villanova and Virginia being the only winning teams.

The 800 SAT rule may have been affected.

Sinful Seven.