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6/'21 Founder's Memorial Update-Task Force on Slavery, Segregation & Racial Injustice
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #421
RE: 6/'21 Founder's Memorial Update-Task Force on Slavery, Segregation & Racial In...
Those are disturbed by it now will still be disturbed wherever it is put.

Those who were not disturbed before will now largely be disturbed.
01-25-2022 10:27 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #422
RE: 6/'21 Founder's Memorial Update-Task Force on Slavery, Segregation & Racial In...
(06-23-2021 05:58 AM)MerseyOwl Wrote:  I think the Task Force is holding back.

I'd like to see them fully embrace the precept of 'damnatio memoriae'.

The main problem I see is whether to rename the institution as "The University at Sunset Boulevard and Main Street" or "The University near the Texas Medical Center" or maybe "The University across from Hermann Park".

I think the leading option is "Harriette Tubman U.".
01-25-2022 10:32 PM
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smooth_rough Offline
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Post: #423
RE: 6/'21 Founder's Memorial Update-Task Force on Slavery, Segregation & Racial In...
(01-25-2022 10:32 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(06-23-2021 05:58 AM)MerseyOwl Wrote:  I think the Task Force is holding back.

I'd like to see them fully embrace the precept of 'damnatio memoriae'.

The main problem I see is whether to rename the institution as "The University at Sunset Boulevard and Main Street" or "The University near the Texas Medical Center" or maybe "The University across from Hermann Park".

I think the leading option is "Harriette Tubman U.".


Be careful about introducing any new ideas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APlC7o67lRI
01-25-2022 10:38 PM
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Tomball Owl Offline
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Post: #424
RE: 6/'21 Founder's Memorial Update-Task Force on Slavery, Segregation & Racial In...
(01-25-2022 10:32 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(06-23-2021 05:58 AM)MerseyOwl Wrote:  I think the Task Force is holding back.

I'd like to see them fully embrace the precept of 'damnatio memoriae'.

The main problem I see is whether to rename the institution as "The University at Sunset Boulevard and Main Street" or "The University near the Texas Medical Center" or maybe "The University across from Hermann Park".

I think the leading option is "Harriette Tubman U.".

Nah. Just keep it simple. Woke U.
01-25-2022 11:21 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #425
RE: 6/'21 Founder's Memorial Update-Task Force on Slavery, Segregation & Racial In...
It's hard to find a white man born before 1975 who can pass the purity tests. Damn few after 1975. I myself have eaten at a segregated restaurant and attended a segregated university. Probably stayed at a motel (unwittingly) that was not in the Green Book. Failed to attend any marches or protests, and had the gall to say, publicly, All Lives Matter. No, I don't qualify, even if I had the hundred mil and the inclination to give it away. But future letters and calls asking for any amount will be turned away.

So, when it comes time to donate a hundred million for a new college or a new gym or a new stadium, who will they name those after? The donor likely is not in the pool of acceptable people, more likely in the racist pool.

I think of Hanszen, Baker, Jones, Brown, Richardson, Rayzor, Fondren, Lovett, W. M. Rice, Will Rice, and others, and wonder which of them will be under attack next, and which can survive the purity tests and political demands.

The pool of acceptable names is mostly names like Rosa Parks, M.L. King, Obama, Sojourner Truth, Tubman, etc.

What schools in the US are named after/founded by acceptable white men? UVA? No. Washington and Lee? George Washington U. Stetson? Stanford? Coe? Austin College? Kings College? Brigham Young? Falwell was smart when he named his school Liberty.

Maybe the day will come when somebody accepted into my alma mater will get a letter saying he/she/whatever has been accepted to Tubman University, and assigned to Parks College (formerly Baker). I will be long gone, so who cares?
01-26-2022 11:55 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #426
RE: 6/'21 Founder's Memorial Update-Task Force on Slavery, Segregation & Racial In...
We had a Thresher letter where a young black student complained about RUPD being called on a parking dispute and said she was worried about being shot. In that letter she said she was uncomfortable passing the statue.

Two questions:

Will she be comfortable now, when the statue is shunted off into a corner?

and:

Is this the end of it - will this satisfy the black/woke students once and for all so that we never hear of this again?

My best guesses as to the answers to those questions are no and no.
01-26-2022 02:38 PM
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Post: #427
RE: 6/'21 Founder's Memorial Update-Task Force on Slavery, Segregation & Racial Injustice
smooth_rough

You made a very specific charge against a student that has been 'unapproved' unless you can provide very good evidence of your claim. You have also disabled PMs so I can't tell you this in private. If you choose not to respond (and you must do it in a PM, not on this forum) then you will leave me with few choices.
01-26-2022 03:23 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #428
RE: 6/'21 Founder's Memorial Update-Task Force on Slavery, Segregation & Racial In...
(01-25-2022 09:58 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(01-25-2022 09:17 PM)smooth_rough Wrote:  Since I'm guessing that nobody here is a trustee, or is about to donate a billion dollar gift to Rice, it really doesn't matter what we post here.
Personally, I think doing as little as possible to disturb a grave site is the best idea. The founders memorial should remain right where it is. An additional plaque nearby could be added, saying something to the effect that the university is committed to higher ideals now, and redirecting those who are interested to a specialized research room in fondren with the full history etc.
Sounds like its going to become sculpture garden designed by some artsy fartsy architect student from Rice, with woke input.
Or not...
From the release: "The university will launch a process to select a distinguished architect or landscape designer to spearhead the reenvisioning of the quadrangle."

Please don't let whoever did the remodeled RMC do it.
01-26-2022 06:02 PM
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MerseyOwl Offline
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Post: #429
RE: 6/'21 Founder's Memorial Update-Task Force on Slavery, Segregation & Racial In...
(01-26-2022 06:02 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(01-25-2022 09:58 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(01-25-2022 09:17 PM)smooth_rough Wrote:  Since I'm guessing that nobody here is a trustee, or is about to donate a billion dollar gift to Rice, it really doesn't matter what we post here.
Personally, I think doing as little as possible to disturb a grave site is the best idea. The founders memorial should remain right where it is. An additional plaque nearby could be added, saying something to the effect that the university is committed to higher ideals now, and redirecting those who are interested to a specialized research room in fondren with the full history etc.
Sounds like its going to become sculpture garden designed by some artsy fartsy architect student from Rice, with woke input.
Or not...
From the release: "The university will launch a process to select a distinguished architect or landscape designer to spearhead the reenvisioning of the quadrangle."

Please don't let whoever did the remodeled RMC do it.

What do you have against shopping malls?
01-26-2022 06:46 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #430
RE: 6/'21 Founder's Memorial Update-Task Force on Slavery, Segregation & Racial In...
(01-26-2022 06:46 PM)MerseyOwl Wrote:  
(01-26-2022 06:02 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(01-25-2022 09:58 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(01-25-2022 09:17 PM)smooth_rough Wrote:  Since I'm guessing that nobody here is a trustee, or is about to donate a billion dollar gift to Rice, it really doesn't matter what we post here.
Personally, I think doing as little as possible to disturb a grave site is the best idea. The founders memorial should remain right where it is. An additional plaque nearby could be added, saying something to the effect that the university is committed to higher ideals now, and redirecting those who are interested to a specialized research room in fondren with the full history etc.
Sounds like its going to become sculpture garden designed by some artsy fartsy architect student from Rice, with woke input.
Or not...
From the release: "The university will launch a process to select a distinguished architect or landscape designer to spearhead the reenvisioning of the quadrangle."
Please don't let whoever did the remodeled RMC do it.
What do you have against shopping malls?

LOL.

It's not even a good shopping mall. The old RMC was pretty ugly, but at least it wasn't hideous.
01-26-2022 07:10 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #431
RE: 6/'21 Founder's Memorial Update-Task Force on Slavery, Segregation & Racial In...
(01-21-2022 12:34 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  At this point, you (and potentially #s) are just looking to be offended here.

Huh? WTF?
01-26-2022 07:16 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #432
RE: 6/'21 Founder's Memorial Update-Task Force on Slavery, Segregation & Racial In...
That is one guy who will not be satisfied with moving the statue to a corner.
01-27-2022 01:10 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #433
RE: 6/'21 Founder's Memorial Update-Task Force on Slavery, Segregation & Racial In...
(01-26-2022 02:38 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  We had a Thresher letter where a young black student complained about RUPD being called on a parking dispute and said she was worried about being shot.

I'm sorry, but this is the kind of hyperbolic reaction that has been ginned up by all of the overreaction to other events elsewhere.

What we need is a lot of education. We need to educate law enforcement (and private security, which is what RUPD actually is) better about how to defuse situations. And we need to educate young people of color about how to react in incidents involving law enforcement.

Point number 1 with respect to the latter item--No, you are not going to be shot. In fact, you are extremely unlikely (as in the likelihood is infinitessimal in a few cases, and non-existent in the remainder) unless you resist. I think a large part of the difference in white/black outcomes with law enforcement officers is because white people are taught to cooperate with law enforcement and black people are taught to resist. It's not a white/black difference, it's a cooperate/resist difference. I am not aware of any case involving law enforcement violence toward black citizens where citizen resistance was not an element in the development of the situation.

I recall an online conversation I had a couple of years ago on another forum, with someone who is a person of color who contributes here sometimes. The situation involved an officer who was called to a neighborhood by citizens complaining that a young man was going around the neighborhood throwing rocks at windows. The officer found young black man who matched the description provided by the citizens, and when stopped and questioned by the officer indicated that he lived in a neighborhood some distance away, and could not provide any reason why he was wandering around the particular area. The officer determined that the appropriate action was to return the young man to his home, and cuffed him before loading him in the squad car to transfer him. When he delivered the boy home, his mother was outraged and came out screaming at the officer. A number of people of color commented about the incident, and were absolutely shocked to find that I would not have become extremely irate at the officer had he delivered my son home in that manner. Actually, I would have thanked the officer for returning my son, and so stated. I interpret that to be indicative of the difference in attitudes of black and white people toward law enforcement, and if that is generally true, then I would imagine that alone would be enough to account for any statistical disparity in outcomes between law enforcement/white citizen and law enforcement/black citizen encounters. The other commenters apparently felt that there was no call for cuffing the young man unless the officer intended to kill him, which seemed pretty absurd to me.

Another incident about the same time was a blog post by a black professor at a northeastern university. He parked his car at some distance from his classroom and was walking to his class when he was stopped by police officers who indicated that he matched the description of a burglary suspect who was reported to be in the area. They detained him briefly for questioning (so briefly that he was able to make his class on time), verified that he was in fact who he claimed to be, and released him. He stated in his post that he had already decided that if they tried to load him in their police car, he would consider it to be in effect a death sentence, and had already determined that he would resist physically. That's how people do end up getting shot or killed or wounded or whatever. So why is that the gut reaction? Why is it not cooperate and you will be okay, resist and you may suffer injury or worse, which seems to be indicated by virtually all empirical evidence?
(This post was last modified: 01-27-2022 12:02 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
01-27-2022 12:02 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #434
RE: 6/'21 Founder's Memorial Update-Task Force on Slavery, Segregation & Racial In...
(01-26-2022 07:16 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(01-21-2022 12:34 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  At this point, you (and potentially #s) are just looking to be offended here.

Huh? WTF?

That comment from a few days ago, was in relation to this comment: https://csnbbs.com/thread-923816-post-18...id18021884

It was the comment where you did not think it was unfair to me to assuming that I was "fulfilling [my] wet dream of being able to call us racists at every turn."

You believing that it was my wet dream to call Ham (who made that initial comment) and conservative posters on this board "racist at every term" is a decision you are making - you're looking to be offended if you believe I am calling you and others racist when I have not explicitly stated that in any of my posts.
01-27-2022 12:26 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #435
RE: 6/'21 Founder's Memorial Update-Task Force on Slavery, Segregation & Racial In...
(01-27-2022 12:02 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(01-26-2022 02:38 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  We had a Thresher letter where a young black student complained about RUPD being called on a parking dispute and said she was worried about being shot.

I'm sorry, but this is the kind of hyperbolic reaction that has been ginned up by all of the overreaction to other events elsewhere.

What we need is a lot of education. We need to educate law enforcement (and private security, which is what RUPD actually is) better about how to defuse situations. And we need to educate young people of color about how to react in incidents involving law enforcement.

Point number 1 with respect to the latter item--No, you are not going to be shot. In fact, you are extremely unlikely (as in the likelihood is infinitessimal in a few cases, and non-existent in the remainder) unless you resist. I think a large part of the difference in white/black outcomes with law enforcement officers is because white people are taught to cooperate with law enforcement and black people are taught to resist. It's not a white/black difference, it's a cooperate/resist difference. I am not aware of any case involving law enforcement violence toward black citizens where citizen resistance was not an element in the development of the situation.

I recall an online conversation I had a couple of years ago on another forum, with someone who is a person of color who contributes here sometimes. The situation involved an officer who was called to a neighborhood by citizens complaining that a young man was going around the neighborhood throwing rocks at windows. The officer found young black man who matched the description provided by the citizens, and when stopped and questioned by the officer indicated that he lived in a neighborhood some distance away, and could not provide any reason why he was wandering around the particular area. The officer determined that the appropriate action was to return the young man to his home, and cuffed him before loading him in the squad car to transfer him. When he delivered the boy home, his mother was outraged and came out screaming at the officer. A number of people of color commented about the incident, and were absolutely shocked to find that I would not have become extremely irate at the officer had he delivered my son home in that manner. Actually, I would have thanked the officer for returning my son, and so stated. I interpret that to be indicative of the difference in attitudes of black and white people toward law enforcement, and if that is generally true, then I would imagine that alone would be enough to account for any statistical disparity in outcomes between law enforcement/white citizen and law enforcement/black citizen encounters. The other commenters apparently felt that there was no call for cuffing the young man unless the officer intended to kill him, which seemed pretty absurd to me.

Another incident about the same time was a blog post by a black professor at a northeastern university. He parked his car at some distance from his classroom and was walking to his class when he was stopped by police officers who indicated that he matched the description of a burglary suspect who was reported to be in the area. They detained him briefly for questioning (so briefly that he was able to make his class on time), verified that he was in fact who he claimed to be, and released him. He stated in his post that he had already decided that if they tried to load him in their police car, he would consider it to be in effect a death sentence, and had already determined that he would resist physically. That's how people do end up getting shot or killed or wounded or whatever. So why is that the gut reaction? Why is it not cooperate and you will be okay, resist and you may suffer injury or worse, which seems to be indicated by virtually all empirical evidence?

And explicitly to this incident - I doubt this student ever had an interaction with RUPD. They are NOT HPD and are historically not the type of officers to escalate an incident, especially when they know they are dealing with a student. This incident is a great example of the benefit students (and citizens in general) can experience when they intentionally interact and get to know the people that serve their community (and vice versa).
01-27-2022 12:29 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #436
RE: 6/'21 Founder's Memorial Update-Task Force on Slavery, Segregation & Racial In...
(01-27-2022 12:02 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(01-26-2022 02:38 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  We had a Thresher letter where a young black student complained about RUPD being called on a parking dispute and said she was worried about being shot.

I'm sorry, but this is the kind of hyperbolic reaction that has been ginned up by all of the overreaction to other events elsewhere.

What we need is a lot of education. We need to educate law enforcement (and private security, which is what RUPD actually is) better about how to defuse situations. And we need to educate young people of color about how to react in incidents involving law enforcement.

Point number 1 with respect to the latter item--No, you are not going to be shot. In fact, you are extremely unlikely (as in the likelihood is infinitessimal in a few cases, and non-existent in the remainder) unless you resist. I think a large part of the difference in white/black outcomes with law enforcement officers is because white people are taught to cooperate with law enforcement and black people are taught to resist. It's not a white/black difference, it's a cooperate/resist difference. I am not aware of any case involving law enforcement violence toward black citizens where citizen resistance was not an element in the development of the situation.

I recall an online conversation I had a couple of years ago on another forum, with someone who is a person of color who contributes here sometimes. The situation involved an officer who was called to a neighborhood by citizens complaining that a young man was going around the neighborhood throwing rocks at windows. The officer found young black man who matched the description provided by the citizens, and when stopped and questioned by the officer indicated that he lived in a neighborhood some distance away, and could not provide any reason why he was wandering around the particular area. The officer determined that the appropriate action was to return the young man to his home, and cuffed him before loading him in the squad car to transfer him. When he delivered the boy home, his mother was outraged and came out screaming at the officer. A number of people of color commented about the incident, and were absolutely shocked to find that I would not have become extremely irate at the officer had he delivered my son home in that manner. Actually, I would have thanked the officer for returning my son, and so stated. I interpret that to be indicative of the difference in attitudes of black and white people toward law enforcement, and if that is generally true, then I would imagine that alone would be enough to account for any statistical disparity in outcomes between law enforcement/white citizen and law enforcement/black citizen encounters. The other commenters apparently felt that there was no call for cuffing the young man unless the officer intended to kill him, which seemed pretty absurd to me.

Another incident about the same time was a blog post by a black professor at a northeastern university. He parked his car at some distance from his classroom and was walking to his class when he was stopped by police officers who indicated that he matched the description of a burglary suspect who was reported to be in the area. They detained him briefly for questioning (so briefly that he was able to make his class on time), verified that he was in fact who he claimed to be, and released him. He stated in his post that he had already decided that if they tried to load him in their police car, he would consider it to be in effect a death sentence, and had already determined that he would resist physically. That's how people do end up getting shot or killed or wounded or whatever. So why is that the gut reaction? Why is it not cooperate and you will be okay, resist and you may suffer injury or worse, which seems to be indicated by virtually all empirical evidence?

The BLM narrative is that white cops everywhere are just racists looking for excuses to kill black people. Repeat enough times and people will believe. Even white liberals.

This ties into the point I have been making about perception. That professor perceived getting into a police car as a death sentence. I would not perceive it that way, and so our reactions to being ordered into the car would be very different, and the outcomes very different.
(This post was last modified: 02-02-2022 02:17 PM by OptimisticOwl.)
01-27-2022 01:26 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #437
RE: 6/'21 Founder's Memorial Update-Task Force on Slavery, Segregation & Racial Injustice
(01-27-2022 12:29 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  And explicitly to this incident - I doubt this student ever had an interaction with RUPD. They are NOT HPD and are historically not the type of officers to escalate an incident, especially when they know they are dealing with a student. This incident is a great example of the benefit students (and citizens in general) can experience when they intentionally interact and get to know the people that serve their community (and vice versa).

RUPD is much more like the 'unarmed social worker with an armed cop on call' that I've often referred to as a potential model. With the park, metro and Med center right across the street and no gates or fences to speak of, unfortunately they have to protect the students from off-campus influences and that can involve weapons... but should such an event happen, HPOD would be called immediately with RUPD serving in a protective (to the students) capacity. Her comment is either completely uneducated on RUPD which would not surprise me, or is a knee-jerk way of excusing their own bad behavior and indicting a system without having any real knowledge of it. The first would be unfortunate; the second would be a travesty.... and while I wonder why someone would choose to attend a University where they thought the campus police might UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES shoot them for parking their car wrong (when there are certainly HBCUs where they wouldn't feel that way) I'll give the individual the benefit of the doubt.
01-27-2022 01:37 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #438
RE: 6/'21 Founder's Memorial Update-Task Force on Slavery, Segregation & Racial Injustice
Leland Stanford Sr. was much more clearly and openly a racist and white supremacist than William Marsh Rice. How are Stanford and Stanford students and alumni responding to that in this woke era?
02-02-2022 12:07 PM
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Post: #439
RE: 6/'21 Founder's Memorial Update-Task Force on Slavery, Segregation & Racial In...
(02-02-2022 12:07 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Leland Stanford Sr. was much more clearly and openly a racist and white supremacist than William Marsh Rice. How are Stanford and Stanford students and alumni responding to that in this woke era?

Not so amusingly, a statue of him was in storage for 20 years because it depicted his wife, kneeling at the side of his (then, but not as depicted) deceased son for whom the University was founded.... and feminists were offended... and about 20 years ago, it was put back on display at the family mausoleum on campus.

Mrs Stanford didn't like it, but its not clear that her kneeling played any part in that.

They DID rename buildings named after a proponent of Eugenics and removed a statue of a Naturalist not really related to the University with a checkered past on the inequality of the races. Of course, they didn't found the University.
02-02-2022 01:25 PM
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