Hypothetically: if that conference DID come to fruition, how do the effected conferences reload?

(06-15-2021 09:14 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(06-15-2021 05:09 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Statefan: is The Border Conference another precursor?

Yes, I forgot about them. Thanks

A stable Rocky Mountain conference would have needed Colorado to not have joined the Big 6 in the late 40's.

With Colorado, CSU, Arizona, ASU, Utah, Utah State, Wyoming, Montana, BYU, New Mexico, Wyoming, and Idaho you would have had something that might could have withstood the PAC's overtures, but probably not.

Imagine if the Big 6 and SWC hadn’t taken Colorado and Texas Tech in the 40s and 50s. The WAC, at its founding, would have been:

Utah
BYU
Arizona
Arizona St
Wyoming
Colorado
New Mexico
Texas Tech

That would have been a pretty tough group—they probably still get raided eventually though.

(06-16-2021 05:16 AM)Erictelevision Wrote:  For fun, went to Wikipedia, looking for FBS schools in Rocky Mountain and Border conferences. There was NO overlap. If the conference reunited, here's the lineup:

BYU
Colorado
CSU
Utah
USU
Wyoming
Arizona
ASU
UNM
NMSU
Texas Tech
UTEP

That's a very good league.

(06-15-2021 04:00 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Here's my proposal -- very much open to suggestions!

Western/Big 9/10 (1896-present)
MVIAA/Big 6/7/8 (1907-1995)
Southwest (1914-1995)
PCC/AAWU/Pac-8/10/12 (1916-present)
Southern (1921-1952)
Southeastern (1933-present)
Atlantic Coast (1953-present)
Big East/AAC (1991-2013)
Big 12 (1996-present)

I figure the SoCon had to be a power conference before the SEC split off, and even up until the ACC split off (assuming the ACC was considered a "power" at the start). I may certainly be missing some conferences. For instance, I imagine the Ivy League may have been considered a power conference at some point.

The ACC was not a power conference in football until FSU joined. It was on a par with the WAC.

(06-15-2021 10:24 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(06-15-2021 09:59 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(06-15-2021 06:01 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  Worth noting. In 1980, the following were Division I-A independents (if I'm not mistaken):

1980 Army Cadets football team

1980 Boston College Eagles football team

1980 Cincinnati Bearcats football team
1980 Colgate Red Raiders football team

1980 East Carolina Pirates football team

1980 Florida State Seminoles football team

1980 Georgia Tech Yellow Jackets football team

1980 Holy Cross Crusaders football team

1980 Louisville Cardinals football team

1980 Memphis State Tigers football team
1980 Miami Hurricanes football team

1980 Navy Midshipmen football team
1980 Northeast Louisiana Indians football team
1980 Notre Dame Fighting Irish football team

1980 Penn State Nittany Lions football team
1980 Pittsburgh Panthers football team

1980 Richmond Spiders football team
1980 Rutgers Scarlet Knights football team

1980 South Carolina Gamecocks football team
1980 Southern Miss Golden Eagles football team
1980 Syracuse Orangemen football team

1980 Temple Owls football team
1980 Tulane Green Wave football team

1980 UNLV Rebels football team

1980 Villanova Wildcats football team
1980 Virginia Tech Gobblers football team

1980 West Virginia Mountaineers football team
1980 William & Mary Tribe football team

I believe North Texas was Independent as well.

I got the list from Wikipedia (should have noted that). But I think you are correct about North Texas. Sideshow Joe will know if he reads this and will let us know.

They were MVC and then independent and then Southland. Darrell Royal talked about inviting them to the SWC when he was AD at Texas. But they shortly thereafter dropped to I-AA with the other Southland schools.

Separate list, and please add anyone I'm leaving out.

Schools who were once indisputably either in power conferences or were power independents, but both longer are

The whole Ivy League
Army
Navy
Houston
SMU
Rice
Tulane
Sewanee
Idaho
Montana
Chicago
Cincinnati
UConn (Power for hoops now but not pigskin)
USF
Temple
The 60's and 70's WAC?
Pre-ACC SoCon: (Furman, The Citadel, VMI, anyone else?)

(06-16-2021 09:36 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-15-2021 04:00 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Here's my proposal -- very much open to suggestions!

Western/Big 9/10 (1896-present)
MVIAA/Big 6/7/8 (1907-1995)
Southwest (1914-1995)
PCC/AAWU/Pac-8/10/12 (1916-present)
Southern (1921-1952)
Southeastern (1933-present)
Atlantic Coast (1953-present)
Big East/AAC (1991-2013)
Big 12 (1996-present)

I figure the SoCon had to be a power conference before the SEC split off, and even up until the ACC split off (assuming the ACC was considered a "power" at the start). I may certainly be missing some conferences. For instance, I imagine the Ivy League may have been considered a power conference at some point.

The ACC was not a power conference in football until FSU joined. It was on a par with the WAC.

I expect we may have someone disputing that, but if true, then that would mean the ACC from 1953-1991 was not a power conference, and consequently, neither was the SoCon from 1933-1952, following the SEC split.

(06-15-2021 04:00 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Here's my proposal -- very much open to suggestions!

Western/Big 9/10 (1896-present)
MVIAA/Big 6/7/8 (1907-1995)
Southwest (1914-1995)
PCC/AAWU/Pac-8/10/12 (1916-present)
Southern (1921-1952)
Southeastern (1933-present)
Atlantic Coast (1953-present)
Big East/AAC (1991-2013)
Big 12 (1996-present)

I figure the SoCon had to be a power conference before the SEC split off, and even up until the ACC split off (assuming the ACC was considered a "power" at the start). I may certainly be missing some conferences. For instance, I imagine the Ivy League may have been considered a power conference at some point.

The Southern conference was not all power-teams.

If you're going to count the Southern Conference, then you should also count the Ohio Athletic Conference from 1902 through the mid-1920s.

Teams like Western Reserve and Cincinnati regularly drew crowds bigger than 10,000 (which was what most Big 10 and Big 8 teams were drawing pre-WW2 other than Michigan and Ohio State). Ohio State was also a member until 1912.

(06-16-2021 10:26 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(06-16-2021 09:36 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-15-2021 04:00 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Here's my proposal -- very much open to suggestions!

Western/Big 9/10 (1896-present)
MVIAA/Big 6/7/8 (1907-1995)
Southwest (1914-1995)
PCC/AAWU/Pac-8/10/12 (1916-present)
Southern (1921-1952)
Southeastern (1933-present)
Atlantic Coast (1953-present)
Big East/AAC (1991-2013)
Big 12 (1996-present)

I figure the SoCon had to be a power conference before the SEC split off, and even up until the ACC split off (assuming the ACC was considered a "power" at the start). I may certainly be missing some conferences. For instance, I imagine the Ivy League may have been considered a power conference at some point.

The ACC was not a power conference in football until FSU joined. It was on a par with the WAC.

I expect we may have someone disputing that, but if true, then that would mean the ACC from 1953-1991 was not a power conference, and consequently, neither was the SoCon from 1933-1952, following the SEC split.

The ACC is hard to classify because of its on-off relationship with big-time college football.

IMO, the ACC started out as a strong football conference in the 1950s. Maryland, Duke and Clemson were strong national programs. Even UVa took football seriously at the start.

A decade later, many of the ACC schools deemphasized big-time college athletics and tried to lead an academic focus. This was probably partly driven by segregationist thinking.

By the mid 1970s, the pendulum was swinging back towards football. Clemson and Maryland were strong programs; Georgia Tech was invited to the conference; and UVa, UNC and NCST would start recommitting to football. Clemson won the national championship in 1981 and GT in 1990. The huge success and revenue growth from basketball hid the strength of ACC football in the 1980s.

In the early 1990s, FSU really solidified the ACC as a football conference. Unfortunately, FSU’s dominance in football also resulted in many schools (e.g., Duke, UNC, UVa and Maryland) putting more focus on basketball.

(06-16-2021 09:36 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-15-2021 04:00 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Here's my proposal -- very much open to suggestions!

Western/Big 9/10 (1896-present)
MVIAA/Big 6/7/8 (1907-1995)
Southwest (1914-1995)
PCC/AAWU/Pac-8/10/12 (1916-present)
Southern (1921-1952)
Southeastern (1933-present)
Atlantic Coast (1953-present)
Big East/AAC (1991-2013)
Big 12 (1996-present)

I figure the SoCon had to be a power conference before the SEC split off, and even up until the ACC split off (assuming the ACC was considered a "power" at the start). I may certainly be missing some conferences. For instance, I imagine the Ivy League may have been considered a power conference at some point.

The ACC was not a power conference in football until FSU joined. It was on a par with the WAC.

Ridiculous.

(06-16-2021 11:33 AM)Statefan Wrote:  

(06-16-2021 09:36 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-15-2021 04:00 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Here's my proposal -- very much open to suggestions!

Western/Big 9/10 (1896-present)
MVIAA/Big 6/7/8 (1907-1995)
Southwest (1914-1995)
PCC/AAWU/Pac-8/10/12 (1916-present)
Southern (1921-1952)
Southeastern (1933-present)
Atlantic Coast (1953-present)
Big East/AAC (1991-2013)
Big 12 (1996-present)

I figure the SoCon had to be a power conference before the SEC split off, and even up until the ACC split off (assuming the ACC was considered a "power" at the start). I may certainly be missing some conferences. For instance, I imagine the Ivy League may have been considered a power conference at some point.

The ACC was not a power conference in football until FSU joined. It was on a par with the WAC.

Ridiculous.

Yeah, Bullet's comment made me scratch my head. I typically agree with him (about 90 percent of the time) but not on this.

(06-16-2021 08:10 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(06-16-2021 05:16 AM)Erictelevision Wrote:  For fun, went to Wikipedia, looking for FBS schools in Rocky Mountain and Border conferences. There was NO overlap. If the conference reunited, here's the lineup:

BYU
Colorado
CSU
Utah
USU
Wyoming
Arizona
ASU
UNM
NMSU
Texas Tech
UTEP

That's a very good league.

I agree! If this became reality in 2021, how do the effected conferences respond?

(06-16-2021 09:36 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-15-2021 04:00 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Here's my proposal -- very much open to suggestions!

Western/Big 9/10 (1896-present)
MVIAA/Big 6/7/8 (1907-1995)
Southwest (1914-1995)
PCC/AAWU/Pac-8/10/12 (1916-present)
Southern (1921-1952)
Southeastern (1933-present)
Atlantic Coast (1953-present)
Big East/AAC (1991-2013)
Big 12 (1996-present)

I figure the SoCon had to be a power conference before the SEC split off, and even up until the ACC split off (assuming the ACC was considered a "power" at the start). I may certainly be missing some conferences. For instance, I imagine the Ivy League may have been considered a power conference at some point.

The ACC was not a power conference in football until FSU joined. It was on a par with the WAC.

It was for about a decade, maybe a little less. They dramatically raised their minimum SAT score requirements in the early 60s and their competitiveness dramatically declined.

(06-16-2021 12:01 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  

(06-16-2021 08:10 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(06-16-2021 05:16 AM)Erictelevision Wrote:  For fun, went to Wikipedia, looking for FBS schools in Rocky Mountain and Border conferences. There was NO overlap. If the conference reunited, here's the lineup:

BYU
Colorado
CSU
Utah
USU
Wyoming
Arizona
ASU
UNM
NMSU
Texas Tech
UTEP

That's a very good league.

I agree! If this became reality in 2021, how do the effected conferences respond?

BYU and the 5 P5 schools would never leave what they have now to go back to a league like this.

(06-16-2021 12:18 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(06-16-2021 12:01 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  

(06-16-2021 08:10 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(06-16-2021 05:16 AM)Erictelevision Wrote:  For fun, went to Wikipedia, looking for FBS schools in Rocky Mountain and Border conferences. There was NO overlap. If the conference reunited, here's the lineup:

BYU
Colorado
CSU
Utah
USU
Wyoming
Arizona
ASU
UNM
NMSU
Texas Tech
UTEP

That's a very good league.

I agree! If this became reality in 2021, how do the effected conferences respond?

BYU and the 5 P5 schools would never leave what they have now to go back to a league like this.

Correct. That's why answering EricTV's question is difficult to do.

RMAC was a power conference at one time.

Before the precursor to the PAC 12 formed, the first version of Pacific Northwest Conference had Idaho, Montana, Oregon, Oregon State, Washington, Washington State, Whitman.

(06-16-2021 11:40 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(06-16-2021 11:33 AM)Statefan Wrote:  

(06-16-2021 09:36 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-15-2021 04:00 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Here's my proposal -- very much open to suggestions!

Western/Big 9/10 (1896-present)
MVIAA/Big 6/7/8 (1907-1995)
Southwest (1914-1995)
PCC/AAWU/Pac-8/10/12 (1916-present)
Southern (1921-1952)
Southeastern (1933-present)
Atlantic Coast (1953-present)
Big East/AAC (1991-2013)
Big 12 (1996-present)

I figure the SoCon had to be a power conference before the SEC split off, and even up until the ACC split off (assuming the ACC was considered a "power" at the start). I may certainly be missing some conferences. For instance, I imagine the Ivy League may have been considered a power conference at some point.

The ACC was not a power conference in football until FSU joined. It was on a par with the WAC.

Ridiculous.

Yeah, Bullet's comment made me scratch my head. I typically agree with him (about 90 percent of the time) but not on this.

Read Wahoo's comments. Losing to an ACC school in the 70s and early 80s was considered embarrassing. Clemson's MNC was viewed as a really good team from a weak conference. The ACC was, however, better than its reputation in the 90s. Basketball of course was always strong.

(06-16-2021 09:36 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-15-2021 04:00 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Here's my proposal -- very much open to suggestions!

Western/Big 9/10 (1896-present)
MVIAA/Big 6/7/8 (1907-1995)
Southwest (1914-1995)
PCC/AAWU/Pac-8/10/12 (1916-present)
Southern (1921-1952)
Southeastern (1933-present)
Atlantic Coast (1953-present)
Big East/AAC (1991-2013)
Big 12 (1996-present)

I figure the SoCon had to be a power conference before the SEC split off, and even up until the ACC split off (assuming the ACC was considered a "power" at the start). I may certainly be missing some conferences. For instance, I imagine the Ivy League may have been considered a power conference at some point.

The ACC was not a power conference in football until FSU joined. It was on a par with the WAC.

Once again, not true. I’ve proven this before by sharing articles and interviews from the 80’s and the ACC was always included with the Big 10, SEC, SWC, Big 8, and Pac 10 as a “major conference”.

Perhaps it was the ACC's basketball that carried it as a "power conference" even though its football was weak?

(06-16-2021 10:40 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-16-2021 11:40 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(06-16-2021 11:33 AM)Statefan Wrote:  

(06-16-2021 09:36 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-15-2021 04:00 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Here's my proposal -- very much open to suggestions!

Western/Big 9/10 (1896-present)
MVIAA/Big 6/7/8 (1907-1995)
Southwest (1914-1995)
PCC/AAWU/Pac-8/10/12 (1916-present)
Southern (1921-1952)
Southeastern (1933-present)
Atlantic Coast (1953-present)
Big East/AAC (1991-2013)
Big 12 (1996-present)

I figure the SoCon had to be a power conference before the SEC split off, and even up until the ACC split off (assuming the ACC was considered a "power" at the start). I may certainly be missing some conferences. For instance, I imagine the Ivy League may have been considered a power conference at some point.

The ACC was not a power conference in football until FSU joined. It was on a par with the WAC.

Ridiculous.

Yeah, Bullet's comment made me scratch my head. I typically agree with him (about 90 percent of the time) but not on this.

Read Wahoo's comments. Losing to an ACC school in the 70s and early 80s was considered embarrassing. Clemson's MNC was viewed as a really good team from a weak conference. The ACC was, however, better than its reputation in the 90s. Basketball of course was always strong.

I guess it comes down to how folks defined "power football league" back then. If defined strongly by resources and prestige (as is how we define it today), the ACC was a power conference.

I do, in general, see your point. ACC football in the 1970s and 1980s was not good. But it still had the trappings of a "power football league" even back then.