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Update on Status of US Navy
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #41
RE: Update on Status of US Navy
Here's the other thing affecting all branches. Their budgets are shrinking. The only way they can do it is to make drastic cuts in their administrative/overhead headcount and spending.

My proposed 2050 fleet would be 24 carriers (12 CVN [Nimitz] and 12 CV [Kitty Hawk], with current LHAs/LHDs converted to interim Lightning Carriers until the CVs enter the fleet) in 12 carrier battle groups (CVBG), 8 battlecarriers and 8 ASW helo carriers in 8 surface action/hunter-killer groups (SAG/HUK), 20 escort squadrons of 10 ships each (1 cruiser, 2 AAW destroyers, 3 GP escorts, 4 ASW frigates) to escort the 20 CVBGs/SAG/HUKs, 12 LPDs converted to HII anti-ballistic missile/ballistic missile defense (ABM/BMD) ships, 60 smaller amphibious ships like the old amphibious squadrons used to contain (small LHA/LHD, LPH, LPD/LSD, LST, LPA/LKA, and fire support frigate), 12 SSBNs, 20 SSGNs (primary strike platforms), 60 SSNs (mixture of Virginia VPMs and smaller like French Barracuda), 120 small coastal/littoral combatants (30 each corvettes, missile patrol boats, MCM ships, and SSKs), and 76 auxiliaries, total fleet 600. The inclusion of low end cheaper single-purpose ships (Nimitzes and CVs instead of Fords, ASW frigates, coastal/littoral ships, smaller amphibious ships) reduces cost/ship from $2.8B per the Navy's 355-ship plan to $1.5B, making the total cost less than the much smaller fleet that the Navy is proposing.

The remaining issues would be finding the headcount for such a larger fleet and also operating costs.

For headcount, CBO analyzed force structure in 2017 and for the Navy and Marines (combined) found 210,000 combat personnel, 93,000 combat support, 202,000 admin/overhead, and 97,000 reserves, total potential end strength 602,000. Total active forces of 505,000 were about 325,000 Navy and 180,000 Marines. Cut admin/overhead in half, put 1/3 (34,000) in combat, 1/6 (17,000) in combat support, cut active duty by 50,000, and double the size of the reserves. That would make 244,000 combat, 110,000 combat support, 101,000 admin/overhead,195,000 reserves, and 650,000 potential end strength. We pay reservists for 60 days a year, so in theory a reservist costs 1/6 what an active duty person does, but assume 1/3. That means that today we are paying for 532,000 FTEs (505,000 + 97,000/3). The proposed structure would be 520,000 FTEs (455,000 + 195,000/3). That means an 8% increase in end strength for a 2.5% reduction in personnel costs.

Now looking at the 455,000 active duty personnel to allocate between Navy and Marines, I think we need to refocus the Marines on what should be their primary missions--amphibious and commando ops--and get them out of the baby Army/baby Air Force business. Or as I read the other day, someone's child asked him, "Daddy, why does the Navy's Army need an Air Force?" It doesn't. Marines need about 90,000 Fleet Marines for potential amphibious operations. Merge the Marines and SOCOM for about 30,000 commando forces. And allow 20,000 for admin and training, or 140,000 total. Marine air would focus on moving Marines ship to shore and providing close air support (CAS) once they get ashore. Navy would provide air superiority, and Marine F/A-18s and their pilots would be assigned to Navy carrier air wings to bulk them up. Marines would rely on Navy for most admin/overhead functions. So Marines would be about 80,000 combat, 40,000 combat support, 20,000 admin/training. That would leave Navy at 164,000 combat, 70,000 combat support, and 81,000 admin/overhead, total 315,000, with increases of roughly 30,000 combat and 10,000 combat support, and a reduction of roughly 50,000 admin/overhead. That's where we get sailors to crew the increased number of ships.

As far as operating costs, military observer Ed Luttwak has noted that the secret to having a large military without an exorbitant cost is to keep a significant portion of it in a reduced state of readiness. I would propose that at any given time, about 10% of the fleet would be in major maintenance, about 30% in reserve, 30% training in the home fleets, and 30% fully operational and deployed/deployable. That organizational structure also reduces the headcount requirement.

Those are kind of the basics of my approach. The Navy is doing nothing like that.
06-16-2021 07:34 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #42
RE: Update on Status of US Navy
(06-16-2021 06:59 PM)swagsurfer11 Wrote:  Do you care to explain why the Navy did this?

Because the leaders are a bunch of idiots is one possibility on the table. Another is that they are all looking to hit retirement and take cushy jobs with Boeing or Raytheon or LockMart, and not really focused on providing the best bang for the buck to taxpayers.
06-16-2021 07:37 PM
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MileHighBronco Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Update on Status of US Navy
(06-15-2021 12:02 PM)Claw Wrote:  They won't invade. They'll just nuke us and use the land after it sits a few years.

Just have the nukes explode high in the air and the EMP will instantly put us back into the 1800's. Most people will die within the first six months to a year, as they have not prepared for an emergency. With no power, no phones, no money, no vehicles except for your horse and buggy, no potable water as that requires electricity to pump it, people will be lost. Most of us have few survival skills. Unless you live on a farm, off the grid and have a well, there won't be food, as that requires fuel, and there will be no supply chain. It will become Mad Max, a fight for scarce resources.

It is stunningly easy to defeat a country with an EMP. Why our government hasn't taken it seriously is beyond me. But as we've seen, a lot coming out of D.C. is surreal and bewildering.
06-16-2021 08:08 PM
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Post: #44
RE: Update on Status of US Navy
(06-16-2021 07:37 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(06-16-2021 06:59 PM)swagsurfer11 Wrote:  Do you care to explain why the Navy did this?

Because the leaders are a bunch of idiots is one possibility on the table. Another is that they are all looking to hit retirement and take cushy jobs with Boeing or Raytheon or LockMart, and not really focused on providing the best bang for the buck to taxpayers.

And another is this destruction of the Navy capabilities is quite deliberate. Their intent is to weaken the Navy to allow this country to be more easily attacked by a foreign power. The question then becomes "to what purpose?" WHY would this be a goal or objective?
06-16-2021 08:35 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #45
RE: Update on Status of US Navy
(06-16-2021 08:35 PM)boss man Wrote:  
(06-16-2021 07:37 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(06-16-2021 06:59 PM)swagsurfer11 Wrote:  Do you care to explain why the Navy did this?
Because the leaders are a bunch of idiots is one possibility on the table. Another is that they are all looking to hit retirement and take cushy jobs with Boeing or Raytheon or LockMart, and not really focused on providing the best bang for the buck to taxpayers.
And another is this destruction of the Navy capabilities is quite deliberate. Their intent is to weaken the Navy to allow this country to be more easily attacked by a foreign power. The question then becomes "to what purpose?" WHY would this be a goal or objective?

Not exactly the same, but being woke has become more important than knowing how to drive or fight a ship or airplane in recent years, as has been commented upon numerous times in the professional literature. There are ongoing de facto purges of officers who don't buy the woke line. One contributing factor to one of the collisions, forget whether it was Fitzgerald or McCain, was that the OOD and CIC watch officer were two women having a lovers' spat and weren't speaking to each other.
06-16-2021 08:48 PM
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Post: #46
RE: Update on Status of US Navy
(06-16-2021 06:43 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Here's CNO struggling to answer questions from a congresswoman who just happens to be a retired CDR.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_j-W5t3KTU

Please share with us what ships you served on - and when - during your time in the navy? What rank were you on each when you served and what department you were assigned to while on board? Did you ever have any shore assignments?
06-16-2021 11:45 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #47
RE: Update on Status of US Navy
(06-16-2021 11:45 PM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  
(06-16-2021 06:43 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Here's CNO struggling to answer questions from a congresswoman who just happens to be a retired CDR.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_j-W5t3KTU
Please share with us what ships you served on - and when - during your time in the navy? What rank were you on each when you served and what department you were assigned to while on board? Did you ever have any shore assignments?

You're not going to doxx me that easily.
06-17-2021 06:44 AM
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200yrs2late Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Update on Status of US Navy
(06-16-2021 01:07 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(06-15-2021 01:27 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  
(06-15-2021 12:17 PM)Eagleaidaholic Wrote:  The Gulf of Mexico is wide open and deep. Subs up from Venezuela could do tremendous damage quickly to bases in the South. That is VERY close to home.

This isn't Periscope Down. Those are 50 year old diesel subs and wouldn't get close enough to pose a real threat.

Actually a few of those old Russian diesel/electric boats could be quiet enough to be somewhat dangerous. The new generation of AIP subs are even more dangerous than those old diesel/electric boats and are cheaper to build than nuclear subs.

Most reports are confident that Venezuela only has one, maybe two operations subs. Both German designs from the late 70's. Chavez's deal with Russia never went through.

They supposedly have a small mini-sub that could be troublesome, but the Gulf is a pretty big place for one of those to cross on it's own.
06-17-2021 10:07 AM
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Post: #49
RE: Update on Status of US Navy
(06-17-2021 06:44 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(06-16-2021 11:45 PM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  
(06-16-2021 06:43 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Here's CNO struggling to answer questions from a congresswoman who just happens to be a retired CDR.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_j-W5t3KTU
Please share with us what ships you served on - and when - during your time in the navy? What rank were you on each when you served and what department you were assigned to while on board? Did you ever have any shore assignments?

You're not going to doxx me that easily.

Not trying to. Just thought your background would be pertinent to the conversation in regards to your many opinions on the subject of ships and weapons needs. Being a Medical or Supply Officer on an AS (for example) is coming from a vastly different place when discussing weapon systems capabilities than being a Weapons Officer or CO of a DDG or BB is. I was also thinking that our paths had probably crossed at some point since I spent over 40 years, and met a lot of CO's, XO's, and Department Officers, working coast to coast and overseas on nearly every class of ship the navy had - everything from floating dry-docks to SSBN's with a long list of others in between - and at least half of it dealing with weapon systems. The rest was dealing with interior communications systems (IC). I also spent some time at the Fleet Training Center in Norfolk (NOB).
(This post was last modified: 06-17-2021 11:18 AM by ODU BBALL.)
06-17-2021 11:18 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #50
RE: Update on Status of US Navy
(06-17-2021 11:18 AM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  Not trying to. Just thought your background would be pertinent to the conversation in regards to your many opinions on the subject of ships and weapons needs. Being a Medical or Supply Officer on an AS (for example) is coming from a vastly different place when discussing weapon systems capabilities than being a Weapons Officer or CO of a DDG or BB is. I was also thinking that our paths had probably crossed at some point since I spent over 40 years, and met a lot of CO's, XO's, and Department Officers, working coast to coast and overseas on nearly every class of ship the navy had - everything from floating dry-docks to SSBN's with a long list of others in between - and at least half of it dealing with weapon systems. The rest was dealing with interior communications systems (IC). I also spent some time at the Fleet Training Center in Norfolk (NOB).

Fair enough. I think I can be generic enough to avoid doxxing. I had a division officer tour on a destroyer, an afloat staff officer tour in the mine warfare force, and a department head tour on an amphib spanning the end of the Vietnam era (2 trips to WestPac), then left active duty and stayed in the reserves until retirement. Add mid cruises on a carrier and an auxiliary, and command of a reserve unit, so like you I kind of touched a lot of bases.

Realized I had never kissed enough asses to make flag, so I retired on 20 as a CDR after Desert Storm, but have stayed interested through reading and blogs. If your SSBN career took you to Charleston or Guam, we might very well have crossed paths somewhere. Looking back, I suppose had I been a Royal Navy officer, I would have gone down the Weapons/Electronics Engineer path, but in the USN I was a SWO line officer.
(This post was last modified: 06-17-2021 11:37 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
06-17-2021 11:33 AM
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Post: #51
RE: Update on Status of US Navy
(06-16-2021 07:37 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(06-16-2021 06:59 PM)swagsurfer11 Wrote:  Do you care to explain why the Navy did this?

Because the leaders are a bunch of idiots is one possibility on the table. Another is that they are all looking to hit retirement and take cushy jobs with Boeing or Raytheon or LockMart, and not really focused on providing the best bang for the buck to taxpayers.

China buzzed Taiwan.
06-17-2021 12:26 PM
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Post: #52
RE: Update on Status of US Navy
(06-15-2021 11:22 AM)CrimsonPhantom Wrote:  
Quote:A giant Black Lives Matter (BLM) flag was allowed to be prominently displayed at the barracks of a U.S. naval installation in Africa, according to an allegation by a military whistleblower to Sen. Tom Cotton (R-AR).

The complaint was submitted through a whistleblower complaint page set him by the senator and Rep. Dan Crenshaw (R-TX) for service members to report examples of bias against conservatives in the military.

The whistleblower wrote that while deployed to a combat zone in Africa, there was a giant Black Lives Matter flag displayed at a U.S. naval installation. The whistleblower, who name was withheld, wrote:

In the barracks area of the installation, a massive BLM flag had been hung from the third story of the barracks, draping over both the second and first rows under it. The flag was probably fifty feet long, by fifteen feet wide. In addition to this, there were many service members that were wearing BLM t-shirts that sported additional BLM slogans, doo rags, and hats, all with BLM plastered on them. I am opposed to the BLM movement for many reasons, and seeing a constant reminder of this group daily, was offensive and distracting to me, especially in a combat zone. I also feel that it is a very politically driven and polarizing group, that has no business being advertised on a military base. There were also multiple people that I worked with, that felt the same way as I did about the group. I asked an individual that had influence on the base and with the base commander, why this was being allowed. He said it was the view of the commander that this movement was not political, and non-partisan, therefore, he had no issue with its advertisement. I asked him then if it would be ok if a hung a massive make America great again trump 2020 flag, and wore hats and memorabilia for the MAGA movement. He told me that would not be allowed, as that would be a very political statement, and cause a lot of offense to some people. I told him this seemed very one sided and hypocritical, and he said it was the commanders [sic] decision, and not his. I share this because I don’t think it was right then, or now, that there is such a double standard, when it comes to these issues. I felt powerless to affect any change, and just had to try and let it go and deal with it everyday.

Link

Confederate flags and naming bases after Confederate traitors is ok but BLM flag is not?
06-17-2021 12:29 PM
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Post: #53
RE: Update on Status of US Navy
(06-17-2021 11:33 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(06-17-2021 11:18 AM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  Not trying to. Just thought your background would be pertinent to the conversation in regards to your many opinions on the subject of ships and weapons needs. Being a Medical or Supply Officer on an AS (for example) is coming from a vastly different place when discussing weapon systems capabilities than being a Weapons Officer or CO of a DDG or BB is. I was also thinking that our paths had probably crossed at some point since I spent over 40 years, and met a lot of CO's, XO's, and Department Officers, working coast to coast and overseas on nearly every class of ship the navy had - everything from floating dry-docks to SSBN's with a long list of others in between - and at least half of it dealing with weapon systems. The rest was dealing with interior communications systems (IC). I also spent some time at the Fleet Training Center in Norfolk (NOB).

Fair enough. I think I can be generic enough to avoid doxxing. I had a division officer tour on a destroyer, an afloat staff officer tour in the mine warfare force, and a department head tour on an amphib spanning the end of the Vietnam era (2 trips to WestPac), then left active duty and stayed in the reserves until retirement. Add mid cruises on a carrier and an auxiliary, and command of a reserve unit, so like you I kind of touched a lot of bases.

Realized I had never kissed enough asses to make flag, so I retired on 20 as a CDR after Desert Storm, but have stayed interested through reading and blogs. If your SSBN career took you to Charleston or Guam, we might very well have crossed paths somewhere. Looking back, I suppose had I been a Royal Navy officer, I would have gone down the Weapons/Electronics Engineer path, but in the USN I was a SWO line officer.

Thanks for the basic background clarification. It is meaningful to the conversation - to me at least - when dealing with naval weaponry. It is a subject that I was involved with on a daily basis from 1974 - 2015. I've worked on weapon systems that date as far back as the battleships and the MK 1A Fire Control computer that computes the firing solution for the 16" guns, to more modern systems such as CIWS, NSSMS, RAM, and MK 38 Mod 2. Spent the first 10 years working mostly ASW systems - ASROC Launchers, MK 38 & MK 53 Attack Consoles, Torpedo Tubes, UBFC Switchboards, etc.

Yes, I have been to Charleston a few times for work. I worked a couple of weeks on the SSBN-629 Daniel Boone there around '80 doing a back-fit on the missile tubes before moving on to Port Canaveral for 6 weeks to finish the job. I've also worked on the AS-40 USS Frank Cable in Charleston a few times gathering engineering information for upcoming modifications to the ship. Never took a trip to Guam although I passed up several of them to work on the AS 40 out there after the ship was relocated there. I was in charge of our engineering group and made the trip assignments so I could have taken it but I was taking so many trips to Japan (Sasebo & Yokosuka) that I didn't feel like I was missing out.

It's interesting that you should mention it ..... the Weapons/Electrical/Electronics Engineer path is the exact path that I took in working for the Navy as a civilian in the DOD. If it was IC or Weapons related, odds are I have dealt with it at some time or another.
06-17-2021 01:00 PM
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Post: #54
RE: Update on Status of US Navy
(06-17-2021 12:29 PM)swagsurfer11 Wrote:  
(06-15-2021 11:22 AM)CrimsonPhantom Wrote:  
Quote:A giant Black Lives Matter (BLM) flag was allowed to be prominently displayed at the barracks of a U.S. naval installation in Africa, according to an allegation by a military whistleblower to Sen. Tom Cotton (R-AR).

The complaint was submitted through a whistleblower complaint page set him by the senator and Rep. Dan Crenshaw (R-TX) for service members to report examples of bias against conservatives in the military.

The whistleblower wrote that while deployed to a combat zone in Africa, there was a giant Black Lives Matter flag displayed at a U.S. naval installation. The whistleblower, who name was withheld, wrote:

In the barracks area of the installation, a massive BLM flag had been hung from the third story of the barracks, draping over both the second and first rows under it. The flag was probably fifty feet long, by fifteen feet wide. In addition to this, there were many service members that were wearing BLM t-shirts that sported additional BLM slogans, doo rags, and hats, all with BLM plastered on them. I am opposed to the BLM movement for many reasons, and seeing a constant reminder of this group daily, was offensive and distracting to me, especially in a combat zone. I also feel that it is a very politically driven and polarizing group, that has no business being advertised on a military base. There were also multiple people that I worked with, that felt the same way as I did about the group. I asked an individual that had influence on the base and with the base commander, why this was being allowed. He said it was the view of the commander that this movement was not political, and non-partisan, therefore, he had no issue with its advertisement. I asked him then if it would be ok if a hung a massive make America great again trump 2020 flag, and wore hats and memorabilia for the MAGA movement. He told me that would not be allowed, as that would be a very political statement, and cause a lot of offense to some people. I told him this seemed very one sided and hypocritical, and he said it was the commanders [sic] decision, and not his. I share this because I don’t think it was right then, or now, that there is such a double standard, when it comes to these issues. I felt powerless to affect any change, and just had to try and let it go and deal with it everyday.

Link

Confederate flags and naming bases after Confederate traitors is ok but BLM flag is not?

They weren't traitors. They were fighting for their homes and their state. To call them traitors is like calling the people living in the community of Buckhead traitors because they want to leave Atlanta and form their own city since Atlanta is no longer serving their needs.
06-17-2021 01:06 PM
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Post: #55
RE: Update on Status of US Navy
(06-17-2021 01:06 PM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  
(06-17-2021 12:29 PM)swagsurfer11 Wrote:  
(06-15-2021 11:22 AM)CrimsonPhantom Wrote:  
Quote:A giant Black Lives Matter (BLM) flag was allowed to be prominently displayed at the barracks of a U.S. naval installation in Africa, according to an allegation by a military whistleblower to Sen. Tom Cotton (R-AR).

The complaint was submitted through a whistleblower complaint page set him by the senator and Rep. Dan Crenshaw (R-TX) for service members to report examples of bias against conservatives in the military.

The whistleblower wrote that while deployed to a combat zone in Africa, there was a giant Black Lives Matter flag displayed at a U.S. naval installation. The whistleblower, who name was withheld, wrote:

In the barracks area of the installation, a massive BLM flag had been hung from the third story of the barracks, draping over both the second and first rows under it. The flag was probably fifty feet long, by fifteen feet wide. In addition to this, there were many service members that were wearing BLM t-shirts that sported additional BLM slogans, doo rags, and hats, all with BLM plastered on them. I am opposed to the BLM movement for many reasons, and seeing a constant reminder of this group daily, was offensive and distracting to me, especially in a combat zone. I also feel that it is a very politically driven and polarizing group, that has no business being advertised on a military base. There were also multiple people that I worked with, that felt the same way as I did about the group. I asked an individual that had influence on the base and with the base commander, why this was being allowed. He said it was the view of the commander that this movement was not political, and non-partisan, therefore, he had no issue with its advertisement. I asked him then if it would be ok if a hung a massive make America great again trump 2020 flag, and wore hats and memorabilia for the MAGA movement. He told me that would not be allowed, as that would be a very political statement, and cause a lot of offense to some people. I told him this seemed very one sided and hypocritical, and he said it was the commanders [sic] decision, and not his. I share this because I don’t think it was right then, or now, that there is such a double standard, when it comes to these issues. I felt powerless to affect any change, and just had to try and let it go and deal with it everyday.

Link

Confederate flags and naming bases after Confederate traitors is ok but BLM flag is not?

They weren't traitors. They were fighting for their homes and their state. To call them traitors is like calling the people living in the community of Buckhead traitors because they want to leave Atlanta and form their own city since Atlanta is no longer serving their needs.

BS. They took up arms against their country.

trai·tor/ˈtrādər/
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noun
noun: traitor; plural noun: traitors
a person who betrays a friend, country, principle, etc.
06-17-2021 01:50 PM
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Post: #56
RE: Update on Status of US Navy
(06-17-2021 01:50 PM)swagsurfer11 Wrote:  
(06-17-2021 01:06 PM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  
(06-17-2021 12:29 PM)swagsurfer11 Wrote:  
(06-15-2021 11:22 AM)CrimsonPhantom Wrote:  
Quote:A giant Black Lives Matter (BLM) flag was allowed to be prominently displayed at the barracks of a U.S. naval installation in Africa, according to an allegation by a military whistleblower to Sen. Tom Cotton (R-AR).

The complaint was submitted through a whistleblower complaint page set him by the senator and Rep. Dan Crenshaw (R-TX) for service members to report examples of bias against conservatives in the military.

The whistleblower wrote that while deployed to a combat zone in Africa, there was a giant Black Lives Matter flag displayed at a U.S. naval installation. The whistleblower, who name was withheld, wrote:

In the barracks area of the installation, a massive BLM flag had been hung from the third story of the barracks, draping over both the second and first rows under it. The flag was probably fifty feet long, by fifteen feet wide. In addition to this, there were many service members that were wearing BLM t-shirts that sported additional BLM slogans, doo rags, and hats, all with BLM plastered on them. I am opposed to the BLM movement for many reasons, and seeing a constant reminder of this group daily, was offensive and distracting to me, especially in a combat zone. I also feel that it is a very politically driven and polarizing group, that has no business being advertised on a military base. There were also multiple people that I worked with, that felt the same way as I did about the group. I asked an individual that had influence on the base and with the base commander, why this was being allowed. He said it was the view of the commander that this movement was not political, and non-partisan, therefore, he had no issue with its advertisement. I asked him then if it would be ok if a hung a massive make America great again trump 2020 flag, and wore hats and memorabilia for the MAGA movement. He told me that would not be allowed, as that would be a very political statement, and cause a lot of offense to some people. I told him this seemed very one sided and hypocritical, and he said it was the commanders [sic] decision, and not his. I share this because I don’t think it was right then, or now, that there is such a double standard, when it comes to these issues. I felt powerless to affect any change, and just had to try and let it go and deal with it everyday.

Link

Confederate flags and naming bases after Confederate traitors is ok but BLM flag is not?

They weren't traitors. They were fighting for their homes and their state. To call them traitors is like calling the people living in the community of Buckhead traitors because they want to leave Atlanta and form their own city since Atlanta is no longer serving their needs.

BS. They took up arms against their country.

trai·tor/ˈtrādər/
Learn to pronounce
noun
noun: traitor; plural noun: traitors
a person who betrays a friend, country, principle, etc.

To protect their home and their home state. Different time and different era. States carried more clout in the 1600's - 1800's than they do today. No telephone, TV, Internet, cars, planes, etc. back then to travel around or get the news quickly from afar like it is today. Can't judge everything of the past by today's history and standards.
06-17-2021 02:18 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #57
RE: Update on Status of US Navy
(06-17-2021 01:50 PM)swagsurfer11 Wrote:  
(06-17-2021 01:06 PM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  
(06-17-2021 12:29 PM)swagsurfer11 Wrote:  
(06-15-2021 11:22 AM)CrimsonPhantom Wrote:  
Quote:A giant Black Lives Matter (BLM) flag was allowed to be prominently displayed at the barracks of a U.S. naval installation in Africa, according to an allegation by a military whistleblower to Sen. Tom Cotton (R-AR).

The complaint was submitted through a whistleblower complaint page set him by the senator and Rep. Dan Crenshaw (R-TX) for service members to report examples of bias against conservatives in the military.

The whistleblower wrote that while deployed to a combat zone in Africa, there was a giant Black Lives Matter flag displayed at a U.S. naval installation. The whistleblower, who name was withheld, wrote:

In the barracks area of the installation, a massive BLM flag had been hung from the third story of the barracks, draping over both the second and first rows under it. The flag was probably fifty feet long, by fifteen feet wide. In addition to this, there were many service members that were wearing BLM t-shirts that sported additional BLM slogans, doo rags, and hats, all with BLM plastered on them. I am opposed to the BLM movement for many reasons, and seeing a constant reminder of this group daily, was offensive and distracting to me, especially in a combat zone. I also feel that it is a very politically driven and polarizing group, that has no business being advertised on a military base. There were also multiple people that I worked with, that felt the same way as I did about the group. I asked an individual that had influence on the base and with the base commander, why this was being allowed. He said it was the view of the commander that this movement was not political, and non-partisan, therefore, he had no issue with its advertisement. I asked him then if it would be ok if a hung a massive make America great again trump 2020 flag, and wore hats and memorabilia for the MAGA movement. He told me that would not be allowed, as that would be a very political statement, and cause a lot of offense to some people. I told him this seemed very one sided and hypocritical, and he said it was the commanders [sic] decision, and not his. I share this because I don’t think it was right then, or now, that there is such a double standard, when it comes to these issues. I felt powerless to affect any change, and just had to try and let it go and deal with it everyday.

Link

Confederate flags and naming bases after Confederate traitors is ok but BLM flag is not?

They weren't traitors. They were fighting for their homes and their state. To call them traitors is like calling the people living in the community of Buckhead traitors because they want to leave Atlanta and form their own city since Atlanta is no longer serving their needs.

BS. They took up arms against their country.

trai·tor/ˈtrādər/
Learn to pronounce
noun
noun: traitor; plural noun: traitors
a person who betrays a friend, country, principle, etc.

And how was the United States originally formed? The reality is they didnt want to overthrow the north---they just wanted to go their own way and be left alone. Its interesting that there are ways for the US to annex new territory, but there is no democratic mechanism for leaving the country if a region decides the nation no longer fits its needs.
(This post was last modified: 06-17-2021 03:32 PM by Attackcoog.)
06-17-2021 02:45 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #58
RE: Update on Status of US Navy
(06-17-2021 01:00 PM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  Thanks for the basic background clarification. It is meaningful to the conversation - to me at least - when dealing with naval weaponry. It is a subject that I was involved with on a daily basis from 1974 - 2015. I've worked on weapon systems that date as far back as the battleships and the MK 1A Fire Control computer that computes the firing solution for the 16" guns, to more modern systems such as CIWS, NSSMS, RAM, and MK 38 Mod 2. Spent the first 10 years working mostly ASW systems - ASROC Launchers, MK 38 & MK 53 Attack Consoles, Torpedo Tubes, UBFC Switchboards, etc.
Yes, I have been to Charleston a few times for work. I worked a couple of weeks on the SSBN-629 Daniel Boone there around '80 doing a back-fit on the missile tubes before moving on to Port Canaveral for 6 weeks to finish the job. I've also worked on the AS-40 USS Frank Cable in Charleston a few times gathering engineering information for upcoming modifications to the ship. Never took a trip to Guam although I passed up several of them to work on the AS 40 out there after the ship was relocated there. I was in charge of our engineering group and made the trip assignments so I could have taken it but I was taking so many trips to Japan (Sasebo & Yokosuka) that I didn't feel like I was missing out.
It's interesting that you should mention it ..... the Weapons/Electrical/Electronics Engineer path is the exact path that I took in working for the Navy as a civilian in the DOD. If it was IC or Weapons related, odds are I have dealt with it at some time or another.

I don't really want to say that I was the Weapons Officer on USS Bumpty-Clutch from 1973-75, because somebody can go out and find a cruise book and doxx me, but I don't mind sharing in generic info. I mostly worked with undersea systems--mines, torpedoes, and the like. Had I stayed in, my next tour would probably have been grad school at Monterey to pick up a Masters in Undersea Systems. I really think the Navy has forgotten that its primary reason for existence, in the words of an FT in a recruiting advert last year, is to put, "warheads on foreheads."
06-17-2021 06:42 PM
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memtigbb Offline
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Post: #59
RE: Update on Status of US Navy
(06-17-2021 01:50 PM)swagsurfer11 Wrote:  
(06-17-2021 01:06 PM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  
(06-17-2021 12:29 PM)swagsurfer11 Wrote:  
(06-15-2021 11:22 AM)CrimsonPhantom Wrote:  
Quote:A giant Black Lives Matter (BLM) flag was allowed to be prominently displayed at the barracks of a U.S. naval installation in Africa, according to an allegation by a military whistleblower to Sen. Tom Cotton (R-AR).

The complaint was submitted through a whistleblower complaint page set him by the senator and Rep. Dan Crenshaw (R-TX) for service members to report examples of bias against conservatives in the military.

The whistleblower wrote that while deployed to a combat zone in Africa, there was a giant Black Lives Matter flag displayed at a U.S. naval installation. The whistleblower, who name was withheld, wrote:

In the barracks area of the installation, a massive BLM flag had been hung from the third story of the barracks, draping over both the second and first rows under it. The flag was probably fifty feet long, by fifteen feet wide. In addition to this, there were many service members that were wearing BLM t-shirts that sported additional BLM slogans, doo rags, and hats, all with BLM plastered on them. I am opposed to the BLM movement for many reasons, and seeing a constant reminder of this group daily, was offensive and distracting to me, especially in a combat zone. I also feel that it is a very politically driven and polarizing group, that has no business being advertised on a military base. There were also multiple people that I worked with, that felt the same way as I did about the group. I asked an individual that had influence on the base and with the base commander, why this was being allowed. He said it was the view of the commander that this movement was not political, and non-partisan, therefore, he had no issue with its advertisement. I asked him then if it would be ok if a hung a massive make America great again trump 2020 flag, and wore hats and memorabilia for the MAGA movement. He told me that would not be allowed, as that would be a very political statement, and cause a lot of offense to some people. I told him this seemed very one sided and hypocritical, and he said it was the commanders [sic] decision, and not his. I share this because I don’t think it was right then, or now, that there is such a double standard, when it comes to these issues. I felt powerless to affect any change, and just had to try and let it go and deal with it everyday.

Link

Confederate flags and naming bases after Confederate traitors is ok but BLM flag is not?

They weren't traitors. They were fighting for their homes and their state. To call them traitors is like calling the people living in the community of Buckhead traitors because they want to leave Atlanta and form their own city since Atlanta is no longer serving their needs.

BS. They took up arms against their country.

trai·tor/ˈtrādər/
Learn to pronounce
noun
noun: traitor; plural noun: traitors
a person who betrays a friend, country, principle, etc.

No, they seceded and formed a new country that was then attacked by their former country and were forced to defend themselves.

I know you can see the difference.
06-17-2021 06:50 PM
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swagsurfer11 Offline
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Post: #60
RE: Update on Status of US Navy
(06-17-2021 02:45 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(06-17-2021 01:50 PM)swagsurfer11 Wrote:  
(06-17-2021 01:06 PM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  
(06-17-2021 12:29 PM)swagsurfer11 Wrote:  
(06-15-2021 11:22 AM)CrimsonPhantom Wrote:  Link

Confederate flags and naming bases after Confederate traitors is ok but BLM flag is not?

They weren't traitors. They were fighting for their homes and their state. To call them traitors is like calling the people living in the community of Buckhead traitors because they want to leave Atlanta and form their own city since Atlanta is no longer serving their needs.

BS. They took up arms against their country.

trai·tor/ˈtrādər/
Learn to pronounce
noun
noun: traitor; plural noun: traitors
a person who betrays a friend, country, principle, etc.

And how was the United States originally formed? The reality is they didnt want to overthrow the north---they just wanted to go their own way and be left alone. Its interesting that there are ways for the US to annex new territory, but there is no democratic mechanism for leaving the country if a region decides the nation no longer fits its needs.

Yep. Once you're born into it, you're family. Ain't no leaving.
(This post was last modified: 06-17-2021 09:32 PM by swagsurfer11.)
06-17-2021 09:32 PM
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