Now many regular readers of mine know my personal feelings and opinions towards Baylor and my respect for them. On the other hand, something happened this past April that I hated but have to accept, they won the men's basketball national championship. Even though it was a COVID-19 season and the entire Final Four was west of the Mississippi River, you can't take that away from them.

There is plenty of discussion about the University of Texas as a target for the other Power 5 conferences (Big Ten, SEC, Pac 12, and ACC) to add. A common theory is that if Texas would consider moving to another conference they will want at least one if not more than one neighboring or in state school, especially if they move to a geographically incompatible conference. I assume every other P5 conference would take Texas and Oklahoma in a heartbeat but let's assume Texas insists on another Texas school. There could certainly be arguments that Baylor would be the school to add if you really want Texas and had to take another Texas school. Texas Tech did make the national championship game in 2019 but they lost Chris Beard to UT this past year so there's a pretty good chance that TTU will fall back to the middle of the Big 12 back in the future. Only care about football? Baylor's been to two New Year's Six bowls, the 2015 Cotton Bowl and the 2020 Sugar Bowl. Texas Tech has never been in any (TCU was in the 2014 Peach). For conferences that value academics, Baylor is #76 in the USN&WR rankings compared to Texas Tech's#217 (TCU is #80). Texas Tech is a public school compared to Baylor being a private school but Texas Tech is the 3rd public school choice in Texas and any conference that has Texas would find Texas Tech useless in terms of additional Texas coverage (unless more people live in Lubbock than I think they do). Now nobody lives in Waco either but Baylor's athletics are better than Tech's now. Obviously TCU's advantage is being in Fort Worth in the Dallas/Ft. Worth Metroplex but TCU's probably not winning a national championship in my lifetime.

As a Big Ten fan, I still would say no at this point to Baylor to get Texas (or any of the Texas schools). The Big Ten has only one private school (and I don't even want them in the conference), no religious private schools, and the private school is in a major market (Chicago) vs. a tiny market (Waco). I still see Baylor as a poor fit in the Big Ten. The SEC and Pac 12 have the same issues, no religious private schools and no private schools in tiny markets. If there's a conference that Baylor would fit in from a "cultural" standpoint, it would be the ACC which has Duke, Wake Forest, and Boston College (different Christian denominations but at least still Christian schools as well as other private schools like Miami and Syracuse). Also, I wouldn't mind seeing Baylor play Duke or North Carolina or Syracuse. Obviously there's the travel issues. If the ACC wants Texas, maybe they should push for Baylor to be the compromise as opposed to Texas Tech or TCU, a school that could at least be an asset to ACC men's (and women's) basketball as opposed to a liability.

So is Baylor worth taking to get Texas? Is Baylor a better choice as the Texas tagalong than Texas Tech?

Baylor is in a difficult position: small, private, religiously-affiliated, small market, weak football history, and not in the top 3 most desired schools in its own state. The scandal didn't help. The basketball program (men and women) is very good and does bring value. Baylor also holds a lot of weight within the State of Texas. I don't think that because the SEC lacks a private religious school means they wouldn't consider Baylor. Baylor would actually be a pretty decent fit if Texas insisted on the Bears in order to join the SEC. I do think Texas A&M would fight tooth-and-nail against Baylor after the issues the two schools had when Texas A&M was leaving the XII. The PAC has made it clear that private religious schools will not be considered. The B1G would be a bad fit geographically and because Baylor is not AAU. The ACC would be a good fit institutionally but is not a good geographic fit.

If the XII disappeared, the ACC and SEC would be potential homes for Baylor. I think the best chance for Baylor would be in the ACC. However, my gut feeling is they end up in a tweener conference made up of XII leftovers and schools from the AAC and MWC.

The short answer is no. But I'm a TCU fan, so I'll elaborate. Baylor would be a "cultural fit" for no conference whatsoever. Texas is never going to "insist" that Baylor join them in any conference ever.

In football, Baylor's historical record is 608-578-44 (.513 wp). The Bears have been to 7 major bowls; with 1 W. They have 9 conference championships. They have 0 national championships. Their overall bowl record is 13-12. They have spent 0 weeks atop the AP poll. Their usual status is "doormat."

TCU has 2 national championships. The Frogs have been to 12 major bowls; with a record of 6-5-1, including recent W's in the Rose Bowl (2011) and Peach Bowl (2015). TCU has 18 conference titles. TCU's overall winning percentage is .541. TCU has been #1 in the AP poll. TCU's overall bowl record is 17-16-1. TCU has had 17 consensus All-Americans. TCU leads the all-time series with Baylor 56-53-7. TCU wasa doormat from the mid-60's through the 90's. At all other times, TCU has been competitive; including a 7-2 Big 12 record over Texas.

Tech has never finished higher than 17th.

Texas is never going to "insist" that TCU join them in any conference either. The only school that might apply to would be Oklahoma and probably not even the Sooners. Texas "might" be forced by local politics to protect Tech. But if they want to leave the Big 12, they'll leave. If they want to stay, they'll stay. Texas holds all the cards in realignment. Baylor doesn't. (And neither do TCU or Tech).

(05-28-2021 12:10 PM)Jared7 Wrote:  Texas is never going to "insist" that Baylor join them in any conference ever.

Texas is never going to "insist" that TCU join them in any conference either. The only school that might apply to would be Oklahoma and probably not even the Sooners. Texas "might" be forced by local politics to protect Tech. But if they want to leave the Big 12, they'll leave. If they want to stay, they'll stay. Texas holds all the cards in realignment. Baylor doesn't. (And neither do TCU or Tech).

Explain the original Big 12 alignment again?

(05-28-2021 02:26 PM)schmolik Wrote:  

(05-28-2021 12:10 PM)Jared7 Wrote:  Texas is never going to "insist" that Baylor join them in any conference ever.

Texas is never going to "insist" that TCU join them in any conference either. The only school that might apply to would be Oklahoma and probably not even the Sooners. Texas "might" be forced by local politics to protect Tech. But if they want to leave the Big 12, they'll leave. If they want to stay, they'll stay. Texas holds all the cards in realignment. Baylor doesn't. (And neither do TCU or Tech).

Explain the original Big 12 alignment again?

Ann Richards was Texas Governor at the time (Baylor '54) and Bob Bullock was Lt. Governor who earned his BA from Tech and his JD from Baylor in '58 under a joint program. They, especially Bullock, got both in since the original plan was just to add Texas and A&M.

What makes the most sense to me for Baylor is to lean into become the premier university of choice for Protestant Christians in the same way as BYU for Mormons and Notre Dame for Catholics. So many universities that were rooted in a Protestant denomination have or are in the process of distancing everything except their Divinity schools from that tradition. This generation of recruits seem to be open to the possibility of going to a non-powerhouse school for the sake of their beliefs or priorities, such as the current rise of interest in HBCU among athletes from that heritage. Notre Dame already has a built-in network of feeder schools by partnering with the elite Catholic high schools around the nation. Baylor also has that chance if they will just lean into it for their branding. If they are going to do it, they better act fast, because Liberty (no joke) is building steam and has no qualms about trumpeting their religious mission and affiliations. You can be an excellent academic school and still keep a religious mission at the forefront just like BYU and Notre Dame.

Put another way, Notre Dame and BYU have no issues with being an Independent. Sure, they enjoy conference affiliations, but they are not essential because the receive national support and attention precisely because of their decision to stick with their historical missions and vision. If Baylor could become the dream jersey for every recruit who attends a Protestant Christian high school in this country, then you have no need to sweat what Texas or Oklahoma end up doing in the years to come. If anyone doubts the branding power and support of that vein, just take a peek at Tim Tebow jersey sales right now. With NIL on the horizon, Baylor has a golden opportunity to pitch for kids who want to be the next Tebow.

(05-28-2021 06:03 PM)Renandpat Wrote:  

(05-28-2021 02:26 PM)schmolik Wrote:  

(05-28-2021 12:10 PM)Jared7 Wrote:  Texas is never going to "insist" that Baylor join them in any conference ever.

Texas is never going to "insist" that TCU join them in any conference either. The only school that might apply to would be Oklahoma and probably not even the Sooners. Texas "might" be forced by local politics to protect Tech. But if they want to leave the Big 12, they'll leave. If they want to stay, they'll stay. Texas holds all the cards in realignment. Baylor doesn't. (And neither do TCU or Tech).

Explain the original Big 12 alignment again?

Ann Richards was Texas Governor at the time (Baylor '54) and Bob Bullock was Lt. Governor who earned his BA from Tech and his JD from Baylor in '58 under a joint program. They, especially Bullock, got both in since the original plan was just to add Texas and A&M.

Texas Tech and Baylor were also clearly the #3 and #4 programs in the SWC at the time and it wasn't close.

(05-29-2021 03:03 PM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  What makes the most sense to me for Baylor is to lean into become the premier university of choice for Protestant Christians in the same way as BYU for Mormons and Notre Dame for Catholics. So many universities that were rooted in a Protestant denomination have or are in the process of distancing everything except their Divinity schools from that tradition. This generation of recruits seem to be open to the possibility of going to a non-powerhouse school for the sake of their beliefs or priorities, such as the current rise of interest in HBCU among athletes from that heritage. Notre Dame already has a built-in network of feeder schools by partnering with the elite Catholic high schools around the nation. Baylor also has that chance if they will just lean into it for their branding. If they are going to do it, they better act fast, because Liberty (no joke) is building steam and has no qualms about trumpeting their religious mission and affiliations. You can be an excellent academic school and still keep a religious mission at the forefront just like BYU and Notre Dame.

Put another way, Notre Dame and BYU have no issues with being an Independent. Sure, they enjoy conference affiliations, but they are not essential because the receive national support and attention precisely because of their decision to stick with their historical missions and vision. If Baylor could become the dream jersey for every recruit who attends a Protestant Christian high school in this country, then you have no need to sweat what Texas or Oklahoma end up doing in the years to come. If anyone doubts the branding power and support of that vein, just take a peek at Tim Tebow jersey sales right now. With NIL on the horizon, Baylor has a golden opportunity to pitch for kids who want to be the next Tebow.

I would agree, and I would try to do this anyway, regardless of what Liberty does or doesn't do. No conference seems to want Baylor anyway, so why not try the independent life in football?? Join the Southland or the WAC for basketball and Olympic sports only, get a schedule going, and you are set.

Continue to play Texas, Texas Tech, and TCU non-conference. Then play Fresno State and San Diego State, and recruit from the Protestant high schools in California. Play Liberty every year just like Notre Dame does with BC. Play either UCF or USF for Florida exposure, Georgia Southern or Georgia State for Georgia recruiting.

(05-29-2021 11:30 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(05-28-2021 06:03 PM)Renandpat Wrote:  

(05-28-2021 02:26 PM)schmolik Wrote:  

(05-28-2021 12:10 PM)Jared7 Wrote:  Texas is never going to "insist" that Baylor join them in any conference ever.

Texas is never going to "insist" that TCU join them in any conference either. The only school that might apply to would be Oklahoma and probably not even the Sooners. Texas "might" be forced by local politics to protect Tech. But if they want to leave the Big 12, they'll leave. If they want to stay, they'll stay. Texas holds all the cards in realignment. Baylor doesn't. (And neither do TCU or Tech).

Explain the original Big 12 alignment again?

Ann Richards was Texas Governor at the time (Baylor '54) and Bob Bullock was Lt. Governor who earned his BA from Tech and his JD from Baylor in '58 under a joint program. They, especially Bullock, got both in since the original plan was just to add Texas and A&M.

Texas Tech and Baylor were also clearly the #3 and #4 programs in the SWC at the time and it wasn't close.

What about now? Is Baylor still the #4 or TCU is better than Baylor?

(05-30-2021 12:07 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  No conference seems to want Baylor anyway

Well one of the purposes of this thread asks is that true after Baylor's national championship? Before April I'd agree they probably had zero value. But now you have to at least acknowledge that, especially in a conference like the ACC which values men's basketball (and which already has multiple private universities). We also assume if Texas demands a tag along from the state that it has to be Texas Tech. Should we? Is TTU automatically the least of all the "evils"? Why settle for Tech when you can take a national championship team? And why am I campaigning for Baylor all of a sudden?

(05-29-2021 03:03 PM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  What makes the most sense to me for Baylor is to lean into become the premier university of choice for Protestant Christians in the same way as BYU for Mormons and Notre Dame for Catholics.

Unlike Catholics and Mormons, Protestant Christians don't really share a single unified mission. Many Protestants wouldn't want to have anything to do with either Baylor's or Liberty's mission. It seems to me that at best those two schools would be competing for the allegiance of largely the same religious market. I'm not sure how Baylor could differentiate themselves, and how that would translate into some benefit to either the school in general or its athletic programs.

(05-30-2021 08:18 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(05-29-2021 03:03 PM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  What makes the most sense to me for Baylor is to lean into become the premier university of choice for Protestant Christians in the same way as BYU for Mormons and Notre Dame for Catholics.

Unlike Catholics and Mormons, Protestant Christians don't really share a single unified mission. Many Protestants wouldn't want to have anything to do with either Baylor's or Liberty's mission. It seems to me that at best those two schools would be competing for the allegiance of largely the same religious market. I'm not sure how Baylor could differentiate themselves, and how that would translate into some benefit to either the school in general or its athletic programs.

Could Baylor become the naitonal Baptist university?

(05-30-2021 10:48 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(05-30-2021 08:18 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(05-29-2021 03:03 PM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  What makes the most sense to me for Baylor is to lean into become the premier university of choice for Protestant Christians in the same way as BYU for Mormons and Notre Dame for Catholics.

Unlike Catholics and Mormons, Protestant Christians don't really share a single unified mission. Many Protestants wouldn't want to have anything to do with either Baylor's or Liberty's mission. It seems to me that at best those two schools would be competing for the allegiance of largely the same religious market. I'm not sure how Baylor could differentiate themselves, and how that would translate into some benefit to either the school in general or its athletic programs.

Could Baylor become the naitonal Baptist university?

No. You have to be wholly ignorant about the faith distinctions to even make that assertion or ask that question. Baptist churches each determine their own polity unlike Episcopalians, Methodists, Lutherans, and of course Catholics which all have a hierarchy. And even none of their universities' seminaries would claim pre-eminence.

There simply can't be a national Baptist anything as the mere thought of such would be anathema to Baptists in general.

(05-30-2021 10:48 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(05-30-2021 08:18 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(05-29-2021 03:03 PM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  What makes the most sense to me for Baylor is to lean into become the premier university of choice for Protestant Christians in the same way as BYU for Mormons and Notre Dame for Catholics.

Unlike Catholics and Mormons, Protestant Christians don't really share a single unified mission. Many Protestants wouldn't want to have anything to do with either Baylor's or Liberty's mission. It seems to me that at best those two schools would be competing for the allegiance of largely the same religious market. I'm not sure how Baylor could differentiate themselves, and how that would translate into some benefit to either the school in general or its athletic programs.

Could Baylor become the naitonal Baptist university?

I don't even think that Notre Dame is the national Catholic University. What they are is the preeminent Catholic college football program, and at the D-I level that's a pretty small group (two in FBS and 8 in FCS).

If Baylor was affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention, as opposed to the Baptist General Convention of Texas, I think it would be easier to market themselves as THE Baptist university of the Southeast.

(05-30-2021 02:38 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  If Baylor was affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention, as opposed to the Baptist General Convention of Texas, I think it would be easier to market themselves as THE Baptist university of the Southeast.

That's just the thing though, Muskie. The Southern Baptist Convention is made up of all the different southern states' conventions. Wake Forest was founded by the North Carolina Baptist Convention before the Reynolds family bought it and moved it to Winston-Salem. The North Carolina Baptists then disassociated themselves from Wake Forest University, which, because of that, is now a secular university like Rice or Miami (FL).

(05-31-2021 12:13 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(05-30-2021 02:38 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  If Baylor was affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention, as opposed to the Baptist General Convention of Texas, I think it would be easier to market themselves as THE Baptist university of the Southeast.

That's just the thing though, Muskie. The Southern Baptist Convention is made up of all the different southern states' conventions. Wake Forest was founded by the North Carolina Baptist Convention before the Reynolds family bought it and moved it to Winston-Salem. The North Carolina Baptists then disassociated themselves from Wake Forest University, which, because of that, is now a secular university like Rice or Miami (FL).

Wake Forest (Winston-Salem, NC) has a non-denominational seminary.
The Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary operated by the Southern Baptist Convention is located on the old campus of Wake Forest Univ. in Wake Forest, NC.

BTW, Duke Univ. (Methodist) houses the Duke Divinity School which is one of thirteen United Methodist Seminaries in the US.

The thing is Baylor already is in a P5 conference for football. So it is not necessary for them to chart an independent path when they already enjoy the privileges of autonomy conference membership.

Should the BXII lose members in a few years, that is when things get interesting for them. Even if others leave and not them it's not known whether independence would be preferable to staying in the BXII. That is going to depend majorly on what the structure would be after another realignment. Other than the BXII staying intact and part of the CFP, the likes of Baylor and TCU, along with BYU and maybe Liberty, would want a playoff expansion, with the proviso that they would also have a path, as well as Notre Dame, to make one of the spots in the CFP as football independents. Only when that happens then I could see Baylor exploring independence. If the playoffs stay at four then Baylor must hope that the BXII stays intact.

(05-31-2021 07:57 AM)Transic_nyc Wrote:  The thing is Baylor already is in a P5 conference for football. So it is not necessary for them to chart an independent path when they already enjoy the privileges of autonomy conference membership.

Should the BXII lose members in a few years, that is when things get interesting for them. Even if others leave and not them it's not known whether independence would be preferable to staying in the BXII. That is going to depend majorly on what the structure would be after another realignment. Other than the BXII staying intact and part of the CFP, the likes of Baylor and TCU, along with BYU and maybe Liberty, would want a playoff expansion, with the proviso that they would also have a path, as well as Notre Dame, to make one of the spots in the CFP as football independents. Only when that happens then I could see Baylor exploring independence. If the playoffs stay at four then Baylor must hope that the BXII stays intact.

You don’t need to be an independent to launch a media campaign to try and broaden your appeal and reach. Both Syracuse and Buffalo have tried to brand themselves as New York’s team while members of a conference.

Baylor doesn’t need to leave the Big 12 to brand themselves as THE preeminent Baptist athletic department.

(05-31-2021 08:22 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(05-31-2021 07:57 AM)Transic_nyc Wrote:  The thing is Baylor already is in a P5 conference for football. So it is not necessary for them to chart an independent path when they already enjoy the privileges of autonomy conference membership.

Should the BXII lose members in a few years, that is when things get interesting for them. Even if others leave and not them it's not known whether independence would be preferable to staying in the BXII. That is going to depend majorly on what the structure would be after another realignment. Other than the BXII staying intact and part of the CFP, the likes of Baylor and TCU, along with BYU and maybe Liberty, would want a playoff expansion, with the proviso that they would also have a path, as well as Notre Dame, to make one of the spots in the CFP as football independents. Only when that happens then I could see Baylor exploring independence. If the playoffs stay at four then Baylor must hope that the BXII stays intact.

You don’t need to be an independent to launch a media campaign to try and broaden your appeal and reach. Both Syracuse and Buffalo have tried to brand themselves as New York’s team while members of a conference.

Baylor doesn’t need to leave the Big 12 to brand themselves as THE preeminent Baptist athletic department.

Which benefits them how, exactly?