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Bragga is OUT Per Kendall Rogers
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #341
RE: Bragga is OUT Per Kendall Rogers
(06-11-2021 08:34 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(06-11-2021 08:17 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Program on the rise that made CUSA tournament to program in decline that failed to make CUSA tournament is not a major step up.
You can call it a small step up based on history, or a lateral step, or even a step down based on potential. If I were Patrick Hallmark, Rice under the current administration is not where I would choose to try to make my coaching splash.
Did you mean to type 'now' or 'not'? That one letter difference is substantial.

Not. Typo. Corrected (and corrected in the quote). Thanks for pointing it out. You are right, it makes a huge difference.
(This post was last modified: 06-11-2021 08:41 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
06-11-2021 08:37 AM
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tanqtonic Online
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Post: #342
RE: Bragga is OUT Per Kendall Rogers
(06-11-2021 08:19 AM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  
(06-11-2021 08:17 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Program on the rise that made CUSA tournament to program in decline that failed to make CUSA tournament is not a major step up.

You can call it a small step up based on history, or a lateral step, or even a step down based on potential. If I were Patrick Hallmark, Rice under the current administration is now where I would choose to try to make my coaching splash.

UTSA isn’t really a program on the rise-They had a very similar record this year to their last year with their former coach.

I think the perception is that the UTSA program is on an upswing. Two years ago their series with the 'big boys' resulted in their getting schellacked.

Now, they seemingly play the big boys in series, still lose, but take them as far as they can. I seem to remember the LSU where they took them to extra innings every game.

Hallmark's implementation of the Junkyard Dogs approach has seemingly resulted ina rather large upswing n the caliber of play. With players that for the most part arent even his, I dont think anyone could argue that the trajectory is anything but on the upside there.

Rice on the other hand, had five years of nothing but a glide path downwards in the last number of Graham years, and what can only be termed a full dive into the rocks under Bragga,

I think the trajectories and momentum of each school is the the antithesis of each other at the close of this season.
06-11-2021 08:42 AM
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ExcitedOwl18 Offline
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Post: #343
RE: Bragga is OUT Per Kendall Rogers
To each their own-but I don't really see it with UTSA-they were a pretty good program in the Southland and WAC but haven't been competitive in C-USA thus far.

For all the talk about Hallmark-they were still below .500 this year. Compare that to a guy like the Charlotte coach, who had them in the tourney year 1..

Not saying Hallmark is a bad coach... I just need to see more before I declare that we missed out.
06-11-2021 08:51 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #344
RE: Bragga is OUT Per Kendall Rogers
(06-11-2021 08:42 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Rice on the other hand, had five years of nothing but a glide path downwards in the last number of Graham years, and what can only be termed a full dive into the rocks under Bragga,

If there is a reason to see an upswing at Rice, it lies in the hope that the Rice Investment can narrow or eliminate the sticker shock gap between Rice and other private schools, if not public schools. One thought about Cruz is that he may be able to make significant recruiting inroads into the Hispanic community. And given the economics, that is one demographic where the Rice Investment may have maximum impact.
06-11-2021 08:52 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #345
RE: Bragga is OUT Per Kendall Rogers
(06-11-2021 08:51 AM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  To each their own-but I don't really see it with UTSA-they were a pretty good program in the Southland and WAC but haven't been competitive in C-USA thus far.

Well, they haven't gone 2-14, and then missed the conference tournament, in the last two years.
06-11-2021 08:54 AM
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ExcitedOwl18 Offline
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Post: #346
RE: Bragga is OUT Per Kendall Rogers
(06-11-2021 08:54 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(06-11-2021 08:51 AM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  To each their own-but I don't really see it with UTSA-they were a pretty good program in the Southland and WAC but haven't been competitive in C-USA thus far.

Well, they haven't gone 2-14, and then missed the conference tournament, in the last two years.

Obviously Bragga sucked as a coach. I don't think anyone is arguing that.

My point is that I don't think we should hold up UTSA as a program that we should aspire to match. If Hallmark wasn't a Rice alum and former coach, we wouldn't be talking about him.

Last time we hired a coach, a lot of people mentioned Matt Riser from SE LA as a candidate. He was coming off a stretch where his teams made the tournament 3/4 previous years. The last few years, his teams have had winning records (better than Hallmark) though they haven't made the tournament, yet there was no talk about him this time around. What empirical evidence suggests Hallmark is a better coach than Riser?
06-11-2021 09:00 AM
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tanqtonic Online
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Post: #347
RE: Bragga is OUT Per Kendall Rogers
(06-11-2021 08:52 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(06-11-2021 08:42 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Rice on the other hand, had five years of nothing but a glide path downwards in the last number of Graham years, and what can only be termed a full dive into the rocks under Bragga,

If there is a reason to see an upswing at Rice, it lies in the hope that the Rice Investment can narrow or eliminate the sticker shock gap between Rice and other private schools, if not public schools. One thought about Cruz is that he may be able to make significant recruiting inroads into the Hispanic community. And given the economics, that is one demographic where the Rice Investment may have maximum impact.

The Rice Investment could be a game changer. And, it can be used (manipulated) to allow Rice to apply athletic scholarships in a wholly new way and a wholly new target base. *That* is the impact of the Rice Investment.

Every player that can be brought aboard with the Rice Investment path paves the way to target a player in the higher economic brackets with a 'true' baseball scholarship. That is, the ones where Rice previously had to tell the parents 'well you can afford Rice'. The RI literally inverts (and drastically expands) the classic equivalency sport scholarship paradigm.

In the hands of an adroit coaching staff and sports department, this is a dramatic upside potential for equivalency sports.
06-11-2021 09:23 AM
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Post: #348
RE: Bragga is OUT Per Kendall Rogers
(06-11-2021 09:00 AM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  
(06-11-2021 08:54 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(06-11-2021 08:51 AM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  To each their own-but I don't really see it with UTSA-they were a pretty good program in the Southland and WAC but haven't been competitive in C-USA thus far.

Well, they haven't gone 2-14, and then missed the conference tournament, in the last two years.

Obviously Bragga sucked as a coach. I don't think anyone is arguing that.

I think Bragga is a good coach, but not at Rice. I think he is going to be a wonderful coach at a state school, even more so if it is a smaller state school. That structure might fit him to a tee.

I have a very good friend (and partner in a business venture) who was a Div 1 baseball coach at a West Coast school. He knew Bragga and said he was a very good coach --- but with a certain type of program. He told me at the outset that Bragga would plant at Rice. We had a number of deep discussions on the subject, and based on that, I think Bragga will be a very good coach at an institution that fits.

Lets be honest, an institution like ULL would be a perfect fit for Bragga, and in that type of environment I think he would thrive. But, the differences between Middle tennessee (?) where Bragga came from, or ULL, and Rice are pretty much the difference between night and day.

Quote:My point is that I don't think we should hold up UTSA as a program that we should aspire to match. If Hallmark wasn't a Rice alum and former coach, we wouldn't be talking about him.

Agreed. That may change in two or three years with a real record at UTSA behind him, though.
(This post was last modified: 06-11-2021 09:33 AM by tanqtonic.)
06-11-2021 09:31 AM
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Post: #349
RE: Bragga is OUT Per Kendall Rogers
(06-11-2021 09:23 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(06-11-2021 08:52 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(06-11-2021 08:42 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Rice on the other hand, had five years of nothing but a glide path downwards in the last number of Graham years, and what can only be termed a full dive into the rocks under Bragga,
If there is a reason to see an upswing at Rice, it lies in the hope that the Rice Investment can narrow or eliminate the sticker shock gap between Rice and other private schools, if not public schools. One thought about Cruz is that he may be able to make significant recruiting inroads into the Hispanic community. And given the economics, that is one demographic where the Rice Investment may have maximum impact.
The Rice Investment could be a game changer. And, it can be used (manipulated) to allow Rice to apply athletic scholarships in a wholly new way and a wholly new target base. *That* is the impact of the Rice Investment.
Every player that can be brought aboard with the Rice Investment path paves the way to target a player in the higher economic brackets with a 'true' baseball scholarship. That is, the ones where Rice previously had to tell the parents 'well you can afford Rice'. The RI literally inverts (and drastically expands) the classic equivalency sport scholarship paradigm.
In the hands of an adroit coaching staff and sports department, this is a dramatic upside potential for equivalency sports.

LSU (one of the pioneers of using academic scholarships creatively in equivalency sports) saved up enough partials to be able to give Alex Bregman a full ride. That's almost unheard of in baseball. Now, obviously 1) the Bregmans didn't need the money, and 2) Alex has proved that he was well worth it.

I look forward to seeing Rice make similarly creative use of the Rice Investment. Applied properly, it truly is a game changer. But this is Rice athletics, so there is no certainty that they will not screw it up.

At this point, I do have a whole lot more trust and confidence in Cheito than I do in JK.
(This post was last modified: 06-11-2021 09:34 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
06-11-2021 09:33 AM
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Post: #350
RE: Bragga is OUT Per Kendall Rogers
So my underlying fear over this, is that I see Rice baseball at an inflection point. The same type of inflection point that occurred in the late 80's under Hall and in positive direction.

The real downward trajectory at Rice is now at close to 8 years. Graham's last five were slightly to middle downward, and that accelerated with Bragga.

This coach selection, in my opinion, is one of 'make or break'. If the current one is middling to bad, it is going to be a long, hard march to pull the program out of the muck. Perhaps insoluble in my remaining lifetime.

I believe it is *crucial* to the stature of the baseball program that this pick be an absolute clear success. Otherwise, the next one will have a David Hall type project to work on for ten years.
06-11-2021 09:40 AM
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Post: #351
RE: Bragga is OUT Per Kendall Rogers
(06-11-2021 08:17 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Program on the rise that made CUSA tournament to program in decline that failed to make CUSA tournament is not a major step up.

You can call it a small step up based on history, or a lateral step, or even a step down based on potential. If I were Patrick Hallmark, Rice under the current administration is not where I would choose to try to make my coaching splash.

Geez, Chip-- do tell how UTSA is on the rise? Their record was not much better than Rice's this year. Most people in the college baseball community would consider Rice a step up from UTSA. And you're leaving out just one key point-- the Hallmark family-- both Patrick and his wife-- bleed Rice blue & gray. One more thing, as I mentioned before, baseball is one Rice sports program that has the resources-- both through it's budget, the RBI Club and the baseball endowment.
(This post was last modified: 06-11-2021 10:04 AM by waltgreenberg.)
06-11-2021 09:57 AM
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Post: #352
RE: Bragga is OUT Per Kendall Rogers
(06-11-2021 09:31 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Middle tennessee (?) where Bragga came from

No disagreement on any of the substance, but I'd point out that we hired Bragga from Tennessee Tech. It's in Cookeville, a bit east of Nashville and Murfreesboro.
06-11-2021 10:14 AM
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Post: #353
RE: Bragga is OUT Per Kendall Rogers
(06-11-2021 09:33 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  At this point, I do have a whole lot more trust and confidence in Cheito than I do in JK.

LORD yes.... Though I do give JK props for finally getting it right in a major sport (in terms of 'on paper' which is all we can ask at this point)

(06-11-2021 09:57 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  
(06-11-2021 08:17 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Program on the rise that made CUSA tournament to program in decline that failed to make CUSA tournament is not a major step up.

You can call it a small step up based on history, or a lateral step, or even a step down based on potential. If I were Patrick Hallmark, Rice under the current administration is not where I would choose to try to make my coaching splash.

Geez, Chip-- do tell how UTSA is on the rise? Their record was not much better than Rice's this year. Most people in the college baseball community would consider Rice a step up from UTSA. And you're leaving out just one key point-- the Hallmark family-- both Patrick and his wife-- bleed Rice blue & gray. One more thing, as I mentioned before, baseball is one Rice sports program that has the resources-- both through it's budget, the RBI Club and the baseball endowment.

WHile I am decidedly more excited about the Cruz hire, I would have thought Pat would have done well here also.

He could leverage many of the things that you mention Walt, things he can't do at UTSA. He could leverage his experience, which he also can't do at UTSA. He can leverage our reputation, which he was a part of... AND he could leverage his connection to those alums/former players... maybe as coaches or at least ambassadors that he can't at UTSA.

So all of that would add on to what he's done at UTSA, which has been notable if not impressive.

He was and is a better choice than Bragga.... he probably isn't a better choice than Cruz, at least at the top.
06-11-2021 10:49 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #354
RE: Bragga is OUT Per Kendall Rogers
(06-11-2021 09:57 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  
(06-11-2021 08:17 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Program on the rise that made CUSA tournament to program in decline that failed to make CUSA tournament is not a major step up.
You can call it a small step up based on history, or a lateral step, or even a step down based on potential. If I were Patrick Hallmark, Rice under the current administration is not where I would choose to try to make my coaching splash.
Geez-- do tell how UTSA is on the rise? Their record was not much better than Rice's this year. Most people in the college baseball community would consider Rice a step up from UTSA. And you're leaving out just one key point-- the Hallmark family-- both Patrick and his wife-- bleed Rice blue & gray. One more thing, as I mentioned before, baseball is one Rice sports program that has the resources-- both through it's budget, the RBI Club and the baseball endowment.

Over the long haul, as long as Rice athletics persists with the same, "tone at the top," I would expect UTSA to rise much more than Rice. A couple of years does not make a trajectory, but 40, 50, or 60 years does.

Now if that tone changes, lots of things become possible, and we have much more of a tradition to draw upon than they do. But we have spent the last 50 years not just shooting ourselves in the foot, but emptying the magazine, at almost every available opportunity. I don't think people realize just how much Wayne ran his program antithetically to the way the rest of the department operates. I don't know if Cheito will be given the opportunity to do that, but I hope he will.
06-11-2021 11:36 AM
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Owl1998 Offline
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Post: #355
RE: Bragga is OUT Per Kendall Rogers
(06-11-2021 09:57 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  
(06-11-2021 08:17 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Program on the rise that made CUSA tournament to program in decline that failed to make CUSA tournament is not a major step up.

You can call it a small step up based on history, or a lateral step, or even a step down based on potential. If I were Patrick Hallmark, Rice under the current administration is not where I would choose to try to make my coaching splash.

Geez, Chip-- do tell how UTSA is on the rise? Their record was not much better than Rice's this year. Most people in the college baseball community would consider Rice a step up from UTSA. And you're leaving out just one key point-- the Hallmark family-- both Patrick and his wife-- bleed Rice blue & gray. One more thing, as I mentioned before, baseball is one Rice sports program that has the resources-- both through it's budget, the RBI Club and the baseball endowment.

Let me clarify MY point in all of this UTSA/Rice jargon...It is not MY position that UTSA to Rice is a lateral move but rather some people in the business' opinion that it is...

And regarding the "program on the rise" statement... UTSA has began a significant upswing in committing money to their overall athletic program. They're currently building a state of the art athletic complex and baseball upgrades ARE in the pipeline. I know this first hand. There's a thought that UTSA is trying very hard to become a real player on the national level and facilities are a big step. They were SOOOOO far behind that upgrades do take time. Pat very well may see this...

Also, Pat has family in San Antonio as well. Houston, and Rice specifically might not be as big of a pull as we think.
06-11-2021 11:57 AM
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Post: #356
RE: Bragga is OUT Per Kendall Rogers
I think Pat would have been able to justify either decision, if the decision were ever his to make.
06-11-2021 02:30 PM
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Post: #357
RE: Bragga is OUT Per Kendall Rogers
(06-11-2021 02:30 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I think Pat would have been able to justify either decision, if the decision were ever his to make.

Correct
06-11-2021 03:10 PM
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Post: #358
RE: Bragga is OUT Per Kendall Rogers
(06-11-2021 11:57 AM)Owl1998 Wrote:  
(06-11-2021 09:57 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  
(06-11-2021 08:17 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Program on the rise that made CUSA tournament to program in decline that failed to make CUSA tournament is not a major step up.

You can call it a small step up based on history, or a lateral step, or even a step down based on potential. If I were Patrick Hallmark, Rice under the current administration is not where I would choose to try to make my coaching splash.

Geez, Chip-- do tell how UTSA is on the rise? Their record was not much better than Rice's this year. Most people in the college baseball community would consider Rice a step up from UTSA. And you're leaving out just one key point-- the Hallmark family-- both Patrick and his wife-- bleed Rice blue & gray. One more thing, as I mentioned before, baseball is one Rice sports program that has the resources-- both through it's budget, the RBI Club and the baseball endowment.

Let me clarify MY point in all of this UTSA/Rice jargon...It is not MY position that UTSA to Rice is a lateral move but rather some people in the business' opinion that it is...

And regarding the "program on the rise" statement... UTSA has began a significant upswing in committing money to their overall athletic program. They're currently building a state of the art athletic complex and baseball upgrades ARE in the pipeline. I know this first hand. There's a thought that UTSA is trying very hard to become a real player on the national level and facilities are a big step. They were SOOOOO far behind that upgrades do take time. Pat very well may see this...

Also, Pat has family in San Antonio as well. Houston, and Rice specifically might not be as big of a pull as we think.

As other posters have stated I just don’t see anything in Hallmark’s resume other than “Rice alumnus” that is a sure fire win. The fact we aren’t in the conversation for the big name hires says a lot, just like it did 3 years ago. Going with a proven Rice superstar is our best bet IMO.

UTSA is a huge step down from Rice in terms of baseball. They play in a little league facility. Their academics allow them to take kids that can barely graduate HS which can be seen as a “positive” but that’s about it. Kids that are good would be better off going 2 years at a JC than attending UTSA for 3 years. I don’t see any appeal. Anyone who thinks UTSA to Rice is a lateral move is stupid or has a 10 year vision, but that’s not relevant to today.
06-11-2021 03:57 PM
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