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Nine game conference schedules with neutral site games
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Wahoowa84 Offline
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Nine game conference schedules with neutral site games
To get more payouts, ESPN and viewers need better content. The major football brands need scheduling flexibility to maximize revenue from their donors and local fans. A 9-game conference schedule adds good media content, but it can also restrict scheduling flexibility. Scheduling neutral site games can be used to make a 9-game schedule advantageous for everybody.

When adding a 9th game, the ACC could use attendance (or won-loss records) to encourage football-first behavior. Specifically, using attendance as the criteria for determining which teams are eligible to gain nearby neutral site games, and which teams are eligible to lose a potential additional conference home game. For example, Clemson is currently the ACC attendance leader and should be eligible to gain a neutral site game (as opposed to having to play a 5th conference away game during a season); while Duke, Virginia and Pitt become eligible to lose a potential 5th conference home game. To make the neutral site game advantageous to Clemson fans, Charlotte or Atlanta would be their chosen neutral site locations. The games could be early season event games…usurping the model of the Chick-fil-A Kickoff Challenge. The ACC sells the media rights to these neutral site games. Proximity allows Clemson to use the neutral site game in its marketing effort to season-ticket holders and donors. Every few years, the criteria could be changed to best encourage football-first behavior (e.g., rank schools by W/L record, etc.).

New rules would be needed for this 9th conference game. Only cross-divisional games can be made into neutral site games. Only one ACC kickoff challenge game occurs every year. Teams can only gain (nearby neutral game) when their conference schedule only has four home games. Teams can only lose (potential additional home game) when their conference schedule already has four other home games. No team can gain (nearby neutral site game), or lose (potential additional home game), more than once in a four-year window. To keep selection to the Championship Game fair, divisional record is made the first selection criteria. Playing Notre Dame counts as a conference game.

This scheduling concept may also entice Notre Dame to add a 6th game to their ACC schedule. One of their “away” ACC games could be scheduled in Dublin, Mexico City, Chicago or New York City. Notre Dame builds its national and international football brand (e.g., Shamrock Series) without sacrificing its home games. The ACC gains media rights to an additional “home” game versus ND, every other year.
05-24-2021 11:08 AM
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CardinalJim Offline
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RE: Nine game conference schedules with neutral site games
I like this idea. Honestly I expect a 9th conference game is coming. The ACC Network needs the content. It’s also about time we start hearing about expansion to a 13th regular season game.
05-24-2021 11:43 AM
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schmolik Offline
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RE: Nine game conference schedules with neutral site games
(05-24-2021 11:43 AM)CardinalJim Wrote:  I like this idea. Honestly I expect a 9th conference game is coming. The ACC Network needs the content. It’s also about time we start hearing about expansion to a 13th regular season game.

13th game or 8 game playoff? Sure the football fans will ask why not both but the academic presidents will have a hard time signing off on either one, let alone both.
05-24-2021 01:12 PM
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Schema Offline
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RE: Nine game conference schedules with neutral site games
From a Clemson perspective, I'm not sure that losing future games against Georgia, LSU, and Oklahoma would be worth the addition of more games against Duke, Virginia, Pitt, etc. I would not consider that providing better content. Now, you do have to consider that away games in Athens, Baton Rouge, and Norman would not be inventory that belongs to the ACC on those years. However, Disney owns the ACC and SEC content, so I think they would prefer those Clemson vs Georgia and LSU games over more Clemson vs ACC Coastal games as well.
05-24-2021 02:41 PM
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Fighting Muskie Online
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RE: Nine game conference schedules with neutral site games
How do you handle 9 conference games if you’re a school like Florida St/Clemson/GT/Louisville and you have a profitable OOC rivalry game and it’s your turn to play ND? That’s 9 conference games plus 2 big OOC games.
05-24-2021 04:38 PM
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random asian guy Offline
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RE: Nine game conference schedules with neutral site games
I am for 9th game whether it’s held on a neutral site or not. To maximize the revenue, I would suggest the second crossover rivals for the annual 9th game:

Miami - Clemson
UNC - Wake
Duke - NC State
Virginia - Cuse
Pitt - BC
GT - FSU
VT - Louisville

Alternatively, two secondary crossover rivals for each team playing every other year

Miami - Clemson, Cuse
UNC - Wake, Cuse
Duke - NC State, BC
Virginia - NC State, FSU
Pitt - BC, Louisville
GT - FSU, Wake
VT - Louisville, Clemson
Clemson - Miami, VT
Cuse - Miami, UNC
Louisville - VT, Pitt
FSU - GT, UVa
BC - Pitt, Duke
Wake - UNC, GT
NC state - Duke, Virginia
05-24-2021 05:28 PM
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Wahoowa84 Offline
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RE: Nine game conference schedules with neutral site games
(05-24-2021 04:38 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  How do you handle 9 conference games if you’re a school like Florida St/Clemson/GT/Louisville and you have a profitable OOC rivalry game and it’s your turn to play ND? That’s 9 conference games plus 2 big OOC games.

Completely agree that helping schools with essential OOC rivalry games is the key. The 9th conference game can’t hurt their schedules. That’s why...
1) Neutral site games are occasionally needed so local fans can attend more games
2) Games against ND are counted as conference games

Both are accommodations meant to help these schools. If there is a CFP expansion with autobids, that would also help teams with tougher schedules.
(This post was last modified: 05-24-2021 08:09 PM by Wahoowa84.)
05-24-2021 07:43 PM
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Bear Catlett Offline
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RE: Nine game conference schedules with neutral site games
"Duke, Virginia and Pitt become eligible to lose a potential 5th conference home game"

Wow. I bet they'd be thrilled to be relegated as second class citizens.

If everyone would just schedule some better OOC games and drop The Citadels and Georgia Southerns of the world, that would probably spike your attendance everywhere. But since everybody's afraid to lose nowdays because there are only 4 spots to be had in the CFP,you come up with ideas like this to widen the gap between the haves and have nots.
05-25-2021 06:14 AM
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ChrisLords Offline
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RE: Nine game conference schedules with neutral site games
(05-25-2021 06:14 AM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  "Duke, Virginia and Pitt become eligible to lose a potential 5th conference home game"

Wow. I bet they'd be thrilled to be relegated as second class citizens.

If everyone would just schedule some better OOC games and drop The Citadels and Georgia Southerns of the world, that would probably spike your attendance everywhere. But since everybody's afraid to lose nowdays because there are only 4 spots to be had in the CFP,you come up with ideas like this to widen the gap between the haves and have nots.

When VT was scheduling LSU, aTm, Auburn, Wisconsin, tOSU, Michigan, USC-w, Boise, Penn State and Nebraska OOC, I was very much against going to 9 conference games. Also, because of what it would do to the football first schools who have a permanent SEC rival OOC.

Now, With VT's OOC schedule chock full of LIberty/ODU, Rutgers, Vanderbilt, Maryland 4 times, Arizona, BYU, USC-e, and Ole Miss. I would be very much in favor of the ACC adding more other division games. Especially if VT gets a team like FSU, Clemson or Louisville as an additional permanent cross division rival.
(This post was last modified: 05-25-2021 08:34 AM by ChrisLords.)
05-25-2021 07:04 AM
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Wahoowa84 Offline
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RE: Nine game conference schedules with neutral site games
(05-25-2021 06:14 AM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  "Duke, Virginia and Pitt become eligible to lose a potential 5th conference home game"

Wow. I bet they'd be thrilled to be relegated as second class citizens.

If everyone would just schedule some better OOC games and drop The Citadels and Georgia Southerns of the world, that would probably spike your attendance everywhere. But since everybody's afraid to lose nowdays because there are only 4 spots to be had in the CFP,you come up with ideas like this to widen the gap between the haves and have nots.

Home attendance for Virginia, Pitt, Georgia Tech and Carolina are somewhat comparable. A nudge to push these schools to invest more in their stadiums and create better fan experience may be a good approach. UVa averaged 47k fans in 2019, they need to be above 50k...it’s an achievable target for Virginia. The risk of potentially moving one home game every four years to a neutral site, is the trade-off for gaining a 9th conference game.

On the other hand, Duke is not close to an acceptable level of fan attendance. They will lose one home game every four years. Rather than playing at Wallace Wade, they’ll have a kickoff classic versus Clemson in Atlanta; versus Florida State in Tampa; or versus NC State in Charlotte. Duke was willing to get rolled by Alabama in the Chick-fil-A challenge a few years ago...the Blue Devils understand the financials of college football.

At the end of the day, the need for revenue is business. I don’t believe that the programs are being relegated to a lower caste, as revenue is increasing a small portion of the risks/rewards are tied to performance.
(This post was last modified: 05-25-2021 08:55 AM by Wahoowa84.)
05-25-2021 08:46 AM
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ken d Offline
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RE: Nine game conference schedules with neutral site games
(05-24-2021 11:08 AM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  To get more payouts, ESPN and viewers need better content.

That part I agree with. The problem for the ACC is that adding a ninth conference game gives them more content, but not really better content. I would go so far as to suggest that ESPN should encourage the ACC to schedule fewer conference games and let the better teams replace them with interconference games against the SEC and B1G. I'm sure both ESPN and Clemson would rather they give up a game against Boston College and replace it with one against Auburn.

As for playing conference games at neutral sites, that seem to me to be lose-lose for everybody. But your idea does bring to my mind a practice that the ACC banned a while back. I recall schools like Wake Forest and Duke selling their home games to Clemson. These in conference buy games were deemed to give some teams an unfair advantage, and maybe they did. But essentially, Duke was making the calculation that they were going to lose the game anyway 95% of the time no matter where it was played, so why not let Clemson sell 70,000 tickets at $50 instead of Duke selling 20,000 tickets at $20 and let Duke pocket some of the extra cash.

But keep in mind that Duke was doing that willingly. They weren't being told by the league that they were a second class member. And unless somebody figures out a way that every member can have a winning conference record, making a greater investment in improving their football programs isn't likely to change where they fit in the conference pecking order over the long run. The inescapable fact is that every conference game has a winner and a loser, and some schools benefit the league by being a reliable loser so that others can have a gaudy record to impress the voters.
05-25-2021 08:57 AM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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RE: Nine game conference schedules with neutral site games
(05-25-2021 08:57 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(05-24-2021 11:08 AM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  To get more payouts, ESPN and viewers need better content.

That part I agree with. The problem for the ACC is that adding a ninth conference game gives them more content, but not really better content. I would go so far as to suggest that ESPN should encourage the ACC to schedule fewer conference games and let the better teams replace them with interconference games against the SEC and B1G. I'm sure both ESPN and Clemson would rather they give up a game against Boston College and replace it with one against Auburn.

As for playing conference games at neutral sites, that seem to me to be lose-lose for everybody. But your idea does bring to my mind a practice that the ACC banned a while back. I recall schools like Wake Forest and Duke selling their home games to Clemson. These in conference buy games were deemed to give some teams an unfair advantage, and maybe they did. But essentially, Duke was making the calculation that they were going to lose the game anyway 95% of the time no matter where it was played, so why not let Clemson sell 70,000 tickets at $50 instead of Duke selling 20,000 tickets at $20 and let Duke pocket some of the extra cash.

But keep in mind that Duke was doing that willingly. They weren't being told by the league that they were a second class member. And unless somebody figures out a way that every member can have a winning conference record, making a greater investment in improving their football programs isn't likely to change where they fit in the conference pecking order over the long run. The inescapable fact is that every conference game has a winner and a loser, and some schools benefit the league by being a reliable loser so that others can have a gaudy record to impress the voters.

I was going to bring up this rule but you beat me to it. Yes, the ACC should immediately rescind this short-sighted rule and, at the very least, allow teams to move their ACC home games to neutral sites if they wish!
05-25-2021 10:23 AM
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Wahoowa84 Offline
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RE: Nine game conference schedules with neutral site games
(05-25-2021 10:23 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(05-25-2021 08:57 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(05-24-2021 11:08 AM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  To get more payouts, ESPN and viewers need better content.

That part I agree with. The problem for the ACC is that adding a ninth conference game gives them more content, but not really better content. I would go so far as to suggest that ESPN should encourage the ACC to schedule fewer conference games and let the better teams replace them with interconference games against the SEC and B1G. I'm sure both ESPN and Clemson would rather they give up a game against Boston College and replace it with one against Auburn.

As for playing conference games at neutral sites, that seem to me to be lose-lose for everybody. But your idea does bring to my mind a practice that the ACC banned a while back. I recall schools like Wake Forest and Duke selling their home games to Clemson. These in conference buy games were deemed to give some teams an unfair advantage, and maybe they did. But essentially, Duke was making the calculation that they were going to lose the game anyway 95% of the time no matter where it was played, so why not let Clemson sell 70,000 tickets at $50 instead of Duke selling 20,000 tickets at $20 and let Duke pocket some of the extra cash.

But keep in mind that Duke was doing that willingly. They weren't being told by the league that they were a second class member. And unless somebody figures out a way that every member can have a winning conference record, making a greater investment in improving their football programs isn't likely to change where they fit in the conference pecking order over the long run. The inescapable fact is that every conference game has a winner and a loser, and some schools benefit the league by being a reliable loser so that others can have a gaudy record to impress the voters.

I was going to bring up this rule but you beat me to it. Yes, the ACC should immediately rescind this short-sighted rule and, at the very least, allow teams to move their ACC home games to neutral sites if they wish!
IIRC it was classic 1980s Wake (and then Duke) behavior. The difference now is that the ACC has 14/15 teams and two divisions. You can protect the integrity of the divisional races by restricting neutral site games to cross-divisional contests that don’t factor into the CCG.
05-25-2021 12:26 PM
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TexanMark Offline
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RE: Nine game conference schedules with neutral site games
How about the SEC/ACC play a 14 game series?
05-25-2021 03:54 PM
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Pervis_Griffith Offline
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RE: Nine game conference schedules with neutral site games
(05-25-2021 03:54 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  How about the SEC/ACC play a 14 game series?

That would be fun .... but probably highly unlikely (of course) ...

Would you preserve the already annual tilts between the conferences? Then fill in the rest?

Georgia - Georgia Tech
South Carolina - Clemson
Kentucky - Louisville
Florida - Florida State

LSU - North Carolina
Mizzou - Duke
Arkansas - NC State
Vandy - Syracuse
Texas A&M - Virginia
Tennessee - Pitt
Ole Miss - Wake Forest
Miss State - Boston College
Auburn - Va Tech
Alabama - Miami
(This post was last modified: 05-25-2021 05:12 PM by Pervis_Griffith.)
05-25-2021 05:07 PM
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CardinalJim Offline
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RE: Nine game conference schedules with neutral site games
(05-24-2021 01:12 PM)schmolik Wrote:  
(05-24-2021 11:43 AM)CardinalJim Wrote:  I like this idea. Honestly I expect a 9th conference game is coming. The ACC Network needs the content. It’s also about time we start hearing about expansion to a 13th regular season game.

13th game or 8 game playoff? Sure the football fans will ask why not both but the academic presidents will have a hard time signing off on either one, let alone both.

That’s the same thing said here whenever it was brought up about going to the 12 game schedule back before 2006.
05-25-2021 07:00 PM
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RE: Nine game conference schedules with neutral site games
(05-24-2021 02:41 PM)Schema Wrote:  From a Clemson perspective, I'm not sure that losing future games against Georgia, LSU, and Oklahoma would be worth the addition of more games against Duke, Virginia, Pitt, etc. I would not consider that providing better content. Now, you do have to consider that away games in Athens, Baton Rouge, and Norman would not be inventory that belongs to the ACC on those years. However, Disney owns the ACC and SEC content, so I think they would prefer those Clemson vs Georgia and LSU games over more Clemson vs ACC Coastal games as well.

Right, if anything the conference could decrease the number of conference games while helping teams play one another "out of conference." Go down to 6 divisional games by which divisional champs are crowned, but offer to help (ie. incentivize) teams to play up to 4 cross-divisional games. To help, mandate 10 "power" opponents, negotiate with neutral sites as the OP suggests, maybe even partner with the SEC/B12 to do something similar.

All 14 teams are going to host 2 of the 4 mandated extra-division games, whether they are cross-division or cross-conference shouldn't matter much for TV.
05-25-2021 11:27 PM
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schmolik Offline
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RE: Nine game conference schedules with neutral site games
I don't think any other power conference would even seriously consider reducing the number of conference games at this point. I doubt any of the conferences that play nine games want to go to eight. I think there are SEC schools that still would want to play eight as opposed to nine but others that would like to play nine but I'd be shocked to find an SEC school that would say "let's just play seven conference games". Any lower than eight and you almost have to wonder why have a conference or be in a conference?
05-26-2021 05:33 AM
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ChrisLords Offline
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RE: Nine game conference schedules with neutral site games
(05-26-2021 05:33 AM)schmolik Wrote:  I don't think any other power conference would even seriously consider reducing the number of conference games at this point. I doubt any of the conferences that play nine games want to go to eight. I think there are SEC schools that still would want to play eight as opposed to nine but others that would like to play nine but I'd be shocked to find an SEC school that would say "let's just play seven conference games". Any lower than eight and you almost have to wonder why have a conference or be in a conference?

You can't just go down to divisional games either. The rules for CCGs state that you have to play every one in each division in a rotation. You have to play them all eventually even if it's just one a year. So unless you're just going to disobey the NCAA rules you can't drop to less than 7 games in a 14-team conference.

Personally I think the ACC should just disobey the NCAA and have no divisions, meeting the 2 best conference records in the ACCCG. What are they going to do? Say the ACCCG doesn't count? So what? As long as it counts for the CFP and bowls, the NCAA doesn't really matter.

3 Permanent partners and 5 games to rotate around the remainin 10-teams allows to you play everyone every other year. Perfect.
05-26-2021 07:10 AM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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RE: Nine game conference schedules with neutral site games
(05-26-2021 07:10 AM)ChrisLords Wrote:  Personally I think the ACC should just disobey the NCAA and have no divisions, meeting the 2 best conference records in the ACCCG. What are they going to do? Say the ACCCG doesn't count? So what? As long as it counts for the CFP and bowls, the NCAA doesn't really matter.

3 Permanent partners and 5 games to rotate around the remaining 10-teams allows to you play everyone every other year. Perfect.

100% agree with this. It's time the ACC stop letting the other power conferences hold it down.
05-26-2021 08:50 AM
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