(06-28-2021 08:18 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 07:54 AM)emu79 Wrote:  

(06-27-2021 06:54 PM)Jerry Weaver Wrote:  

(06-27-2021 06:05 PM)emu79 Wrote:  

(06-27-2021 09:28 AM)emu steve Wrote:  Not to go O/T, but the real injustice in sports is minor league baseball.

Those guys are paid starvation wages even though they are professionals in all senses of the word.

Most did not get big signing bonuses and literally are living 'hand to mouth.' MLB has done too little to help them. Many are career players who are necessary because for every Riley Greene, Torkelson, etc. there have to be others on the lineup card who probably will never make the big leagues. They are living a dream which probably won't come true.

Isn't that true of most minor leagues regardless of sports?

Steve, once again, makes a bulletproof point with respect to logic. This is a situation we all wish could be better.

That said, the NFL and NBA minor leagues have nowhere near the network of the MLB with respect to the minor leagues. The Spring Football League, that Matt Sexton played in only provides room and board to it participants. The NBA G League is far more lucrative but provides a microscopic footprint in comparison to to MLB.

Most MLB minor league players are employed as Steve says, to provide game opportunities for true prospects. They make peanuts for a salary and are needlessly postponing their long term career prospects. At first glance they are indeed exploited.

At the end of the day, however, the USA is a free country. A 21 year old is able to pursue his dream of a professional baseball career, no matter how glim those prospects might be. He also enjoys the opportunity to play competitive baseball in the minor leagues while he still is physically capable of doing so. Baseball, after all is not golf. I was not a NCAA star baseball player but if not for the big staple in my shoulder, I would have welcomed the chance to play in the minor leagues.

Steve is an intelligent and compassionate guy like Dan, with a great on its face argument. Unfortunately in their genuine zest to improve athletes situations, by paying NCCA players or improving MLB minor league salaries, the likely result will be the unintended consequences of contracting opportunities for said athletes. Less NCCA scholarships and less MLB minor league teams.

You forgot minor league hockey.

(06-28-2021 08:09 AM)emu79 Wrote:  To put in perspective there are millions of college students who work in retail and service industries to work to help pay college costs and take out debt to get their degrees. Ditto those who support families pay their own room and board and medical care.
Just making sure we talk about exploitation it comes in all forms everyday in millions of American lives.

Look the scope of this thread is the changing / emerging economic shifts in player rights and compensation at the NCAA level - not all economic realities facing new college students.

BUT if you want revisit these points: average college students dont generate income for the university like football players and average college students dont have limits on making money on their Names, Image, and Likeness rights. average college students and barter their value at jobs and join unions.

Actually you've crossed a line I'm not sure you wanted to.

Universities have to balance budgets which means that students (or more likely parents) and the state, etc. put up tons of money to operate.

A non-scholarship student may pay say 25K+ (and much higher for some schools) for tuition and residence hall room and board.

A scholarship athlete pays zero. If a scholarship athlete lives off campus the student-athlete is a cash expense on the school's profit and loss statement. Plus COA, books, etc. etc.

As as '79 has stated many times, a small number of D-I or D-II or NAIA, etc. schools operate at a profit.

There are over 350 D-I schools and less than say 50 operate at a profit.

College athletes are like the federal government, they may take in a helluva lot of moolah but spent a helluva lot more...

As I have posted before, I believe EMU spends about 16 or 17M a year CASH on athletics and their income, all sources, is maybe 1/3 of it. This does not count things like the value of scholarships as it isn't a cash item directly.

(06-28-2021 08:57 AM)emu steve Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 08:18 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 07:54 AM)emu79 Wrote:  

(06-27-2021 06:54 PM)Jerry Weaver Wrote:  

(06-27-2021 06:05 PM)emu79 Wrote:  Isn't that true of most minor leagues regardless of sports?

Steve, once again, makes a bulletproof point with respect to logic. This is a situation we all wish could be better.

That said, the NFL and NBA minor leagues have nowhere near the network of the MLB with respect to the minor leagues. The Spring Football League, that Matt Sexton played in only provides room and board to it participants. The NBA G League is far more lucrative but provides a microscopic footprint in comparison to to MLB.

Most MLB minor league players are employed as Steve says, to provide game opportunities for true prospects. They make peanuts for a salary and are needlessly postponing their long term career prospects. At first glance they are indeed exploited.

At the end of the day, however, the USA is a free country. A 21 year old is able to pursue his dream of a professional baseball career, no matter how glim those prospects might be. He also enjoys the opportunity to play competitive baseball in the minor leagues while he still is physically capable of doing so. Baseball, after all is not golf. I was not a NCAA star baseball player but if not for the big staple in my shoulder, I would have welcomed the chance to play in the minor leagues.

Steve is an intelligent and compassionate guy like Dan, with a great on its face argument. Unfortunately in their genuine zest to improve athletes situations, by paying NCCA players or improving MLB minor league salaries, the likely result will be the unintended consequences of contracting opportunities for said athletes. Less NCCA scholarships and less MLB minor league teams.

You forgot minor league hockey.

(06-28-2021 08:09 AM)emu79 Wrote:  To put in perspective there are millions of college students who work in retail and service industries to work to help pay college costs and take out debt to get their degrees. Ditto those who support families pay their own room and board and medical care.
Just making sure we talk about exploitation it comes in all forms everyday in millions of American lives.

Look the scope of this thread is the changing / emerging economic shifts in player rights and compensation at the NCAA level - not all economic realities facing new college students.

BUT if you want revisit these points: average college students dont generate income for the university like football players and average college students dont have limits on making money on their Names, Image, and Likeness rights. average college students and barter their value at jobs and join unions.

Actually you've crossed a line I'm not sure you wanted to.

Universities have to balance budgets which means that students (or more likely parents) and the state, etc. put up tons of money to operate.

A non-scholarship student may pay say 25K+ (and much higher for some schools) for tuition and residence hall room and board.

A scholarship athlete pays zero. If a scholarship athlete lives off campus the student-athlete is a cash expense on the school's profit and loss statement. Plus COA, books, etc. etc.

As as '79 has stated many times, a small number of D-I or D-II or NAIA, etc. schools operate at a profit.

There are over 350 D-I schools and less than say 50 operate at a profit.

College athletes are like the federal government, they may take in a helluva lot of moolah but spent a helluva lot more...

As I have posted before, I believe EMU spends about 16 or 17M a year CASH on athletics and their income, all sources, is maybe 1/3 of it. This does not count things like the value of scholarships as it isn't a cash item directly.

Dan doesn't see that many ordinary college students would jump in a heartbeat to get the,same deal some college athletes do. I worked 20 hours or more a week washing dishes and work at summer factory jobs to hep pay for school and still had student loans. So pardon my perspective.

(06-28-2021 08:57 AM)emu steve Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 08:18 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 07:54 AM)emu79 Wrote:  

(06-27-2021 06:54 PM)Jerry Weaver Wrote:  

(06-27-2021 06:05 PM)emu79 Wrote:  Isn't that true of most minor leagues regardless of sports?

Steve, once again, makes a bulletproof point with respect to logic. This is a situation we all wish could be better.

That said, the NFL and NBA minor leagues have nowhere near the network of the MLB with respect to the minor leagues. The Spring Football League, that Matt Sexton played in only provides room and board to it participants. The NBA G League is far more lucrative but provides a microscopic footprint in comparison to to MLB.

Most MLB minor league players are employed as Steve says, to provide game opportunities for true prospects. They make peanuts for a salary and are needlessly postponing their long term career prospects. At first glance they are indeed exploited.

At the end of the day, however, the USA is a free country. A 21 year old is able to pursue his dream of a professional baseball career, no matter how glim those prospects might be. He also enjoys the opportunity to play competitive baseball in the minor leagues while he still is physically capable of doing so. Baseball, after all is not golf. I was not a NCAA star baseball player but if not for the big staple in my shoulder, I would have welcomed the chance to play in the minor leagues.

Steve is an intelligent and compassionate guy like Dan, with a great on its face argument. Unfortunately in their genuine zest to improve athletes situations, by paying NCCA players or improving MLB minor league salaries, the likely result will be the unintended consequences of contracting opportunities for said athletes. Less NCCA scholarships and less MLB minor league teams.

You forgot minor league hockey.

(06-28-2021 08:09 AM)emu79 Wrote:  To put in perspective there are millions of college students who work in retail and service industries to work to help pay college costs and take out debt to get their degrees. Ditto those who support families pay their own room and board and medical care.
Just making sure we talk about exploitation it comes in all forms everyday in millions of American lives.

Look the scope of this thread is the changing / emerging economic shifts in player rights and compensation at the NCAA level - not all economic realities facing new college students.

BUT if you want revisit these points: average college students dont generate income for the university like football players and average college students dont have limits on making money on their Names, Image, and Likeness rights. average college students and barter their value at jobs and join unions.

Actually you've crossed a line I'm not sure you wanted to.

Universities have to balance budgets which means that students (or more likely parents) and the state, etc. put up tons of money to operate.

A non-scholarship student may pay say 25K+ (and much higher for some schools) for tuition and residence hall room and board.

A scholarship athlete pays zero. If a scholarship athlete lives off campus the student-athlete is a cash expense on the school's profit and loss statement. Plus COA, books, etc. etc.

As as '79 has stated many times, a small number of D-I or D-II or NAIA, etc. schools operate at a profit.

There are over 350 D-I schools and less than say 50 operate at a profit.

College athletes are like the federal government, they may take in a helluva lot of moolah but spent a helluva lot more...

As I have posted before, I believe EMU spends about 16 or 17M a year CASH on athletics and their income, all sources, is maybe 1/3 of it. This does not count things like the value of scholarships as it isn't a cash item directly.

I majored in philosophy. If I wrote an awesome paper and a publication wanted to buy it from me and publish it - I would be allowed to. I'm a comedian. If comedy central wanted to book me and make a special and advertise that I'm funny use my name, image, and likeness i would be allowed to cash those checks. If i had a family friend that REALLY wanted me to attend EMU and wanted to help out with expenses - they could do that. If a professor wanted to buy me lunch - they could. Athletes can't do any of that and thats fundamentally wrong.

The economics of the university or how many college lose money on sports is meaningless - restriction of trade is restriction of trade and is DEEPLY un-American.

(06-28-2021 09:09 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 08:57 AM)emu steve Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 08:18 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 07:54 AM)emu79 Wrote:  

(06-27-2021 06:54 PM)Jerry Weaver Wrote:  Steve, once again, makes a bulletproof point with respect to logic. This is a situation we all wish could be better.

That said, the NFL and NBA minor leagues have nowhere near the network of the MLB with respect to the minor leagues. The Spring Football League, that Matt Sexton played in only provides room and board to it participants. The NBA G League is far more lucrative but provides a microscopic footprint in comparison to to MLB.

Most MLB minor league players are employed as Steve says, to provide game opportunities for true prospects. They make peanuts for a salary and are needlessly postponing their long term career prospects. At first glance they are indeed exploited.

At the end of the day, however, the USA is a free country. A 21 year old is able to pursue his dream of a professional baseball career, no matter how glim those prospects might be. He also enjoys the opportunity to play competitive baseball in the minor leagues while he still is physically capable of doing so. Baseball, after all is not golf. I was not a NCAA star baseball player but if not for the big staple in my shoulder, I would have welcomed the chance to play in the minor leagues.

Steve is an intelligent and compassionate guy like Dan, with a great on its face argument. Unfortunately in their genuine zest to improve athletes situations, by paying NCCA players or improving MLB minor league salaries, the likely result will be the unintended consequences of contracting opportunities for said athletes. Less NCCA scholarships and less MLB minor league teams.

You forgot minor league hockey.

(06-28-2021 08:09 AM)emu79 Wrote:  To put in perspective there are millions of college students who work in retail and service industries to work to help pay college costs and take out debt to get their degrees. Ditto those who support families pay their own room and board and medical care.
Just making sure we talk about exploitation it comes in all forms everyday in millions of American lives.

Look the scope of this thread is the changing / emerging economic shifts in player rights and compensation at the NCAA level - not all economic realities facing new college students.

BUT if you want revisit these points: average college students dont generate income for the university like football players and average college students dont have limits on making money on their Names, Image, and Likeness rights. average college students and barter their value at jobs and join unions.

Actually you've crossed a line I'm not sure you wanted to.

Universities have to balance budgets which means that students (or more likely parents) and the state, etc. put up tons of money to operate.

A non-scholarship student may pay say 25K+ (and much higher for some schools) for tuition and residence hall room and board.

A scholarship athlete pays zero. If a scholarship athlete lives off campus the student-athlete is a cash expense on the school's profit and loss statement. Plus COA, books, etc. etc.

As as '79 has stated many times, a small number of D-I or D-II or NAIA, etc. schools operate at a profit.

There are over 350 D-I schools and less than say 50 operate at a profit.

College athletes are like the federal government, they may take in a helluva lot of moolah but spent a helluva lot more...

As I have posted before, I believe EMU spends about 16 or 17M a year CASH on athletics and their income, all sources, is maybe 1/3 of it. This does not count things like the value of scholarships as it isn't a cash item directly.

I majored in philosophy. If I wrote an awesome paper and a publication wanted to buy it from me and publish it - I would be allowed to. I'm a comedian. If comedy central wanted to book me and make a special and advertise that I'm funny use my name, image, and likeness i would be allowed to cash those checks. If i had a family friend that REALLY wanted me to attend EMU and wanted to help out with expenses - they could do that. If a professor wanted to buy me lunch - they could. Athletes can't do any of that and thats fundamentally wrong.

The economics of the university or how many college lose money on sports is meaningless - restriction of trade is restriction of trade and is DEEPLY un-American.

I think you are somewhat naïve at least the world beyond higher education.*

If you worked at GM and invented a part for an EV vehicle, GM would get that patent. You got a salary for your efforts. Maybe a bonus too.

I believe all federal NIH employees who discover say a HIV treatment or a treatment for say prostate cancer or asthma that they are not entitled to royalties, patents, trademarks,. They were paid a nice salary.

What I don't know is how inventions, etc. are handled within the university community. Faculty members are paid a salary for their teaching and research activities. What happens if a faculty member discovers a treatment for X? What happens with the patent, etc.?

Our friend Dr. Peter Hoetz is a member of the Baylor faculty and also a developer of vaccines. Is he entitled to patents, royalties, etc.????

My general belief is that if you are employed by a university, company, etc. that any monies from those actives belong to the university, company, etc. You are paid salary for your efforts (see note at end).

If you develop a Covid vaccine in your basement which is extremely effective against the Delta variant you will be rich. However, as you may guess, it is not you working in your basement which will produce a vaccine. The costs of developing a vaccine are astronomical and not something an individual could afford. Hence, you bring your brain. Your employer brings the rest.

BTW, early in my federal career, I used the NIH computer system. They had a lot of high quality software which ran on their mainframe computers written by their IT pros (and they were GOOD!!!). It was called WYLBUR. EDS modified it for their usage and called it SuperWylbur. I don't believe the NIH IT guys got any royalties, etc.

(06-28-2021 09:31 AM)emu steve Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 09:09 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 08:57 AM)emu steve Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 08:18 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 07:54 AM)emu79 Wrote:  You forgot minor league hockey.

(06-28-2021 08:09 AM)emu79 Wrote:  To put in perspective there are millions of college students who work in retail and service industries to work to help pay college costs and take out debt to get their degrees. Ditto those who support families pay their own room and board and medical care.
Just making sure we talk about exploitation it comes in all forms everyday in millions of American lives.

Look the scope of this thread is the changing / emerging economic shifts in player rights and compensation at the NCAA level - not all economic realities facing new college students.

BUT if you want revisit these points: average college students dont generate income for the university like football players and average college students dont have limits on making money on their Names, Image, and Likeness rights. average college students and barter their value at jobs and join unions.

Actually you've crossed a line I'm not sure you wanted to.

Universities have to balance budgets which means that students (or more likely parents) and the state, etc. put up tons of money to operate.

A non-scholarship student may pay say 25K+ (and much higher for some schools) for tuition and residence hall room and board.

A scholarship athlete pays zero. If a scholarship athlete lives off campus the student-athlete is a cash expense on the school's profit and loss statement. Plus COA, books, etc. etc.

As as '79 has stated many times, a small number of D-I or D-II or NAIA, etc. schools operate at a profit.

There are over 350 D-I schools and less than say 50 operate at a profit.

College athletes are like the federal government, they may take in a helluva lot of moolah but spent a helluva lot more...

As I have posted before, I believe EMU spends about 16 or 17M a year CASH on athletics and their income, all sources, is maybe 1/3 of it. This does not count things like the value of scholarships as it isn't a cash item directly.

I majored in philosophy. If I wrote an awesome paper and a publication wanted to buy it from me and publish it - I would be allowed to. I'm a comedian. If comedy central wanted to book me and make a special and advertise that I'm funny use my name, image, and likeness i would be allowed to cash those checks. If i had a family friend that REALLY wanted me to attend EMU and wanted to help out with expenses - they could do that. If a professor wanted to buy me lunch - they could. Athletes can't do any of that and thats fundamentally wrong.

The economics of the university or how many college lose money on sports is meaningless - restriction of trade is restriction of trade and is DEEPLY un-American.

I think you are somewhat naïve at least the world beyond higher education.*

If you worked at GM and invented a part for an EV vehicle, GM would get that patent. You got a salary for your efforts. Maybe a bonus too.

I believe all federal NIH employees who discover say a HIV treatment or a treatment for say prostate cancer or asthma that they are not entitled to royalties, patents, trademarks,. They were paid a nice salary.

What I don't know is how inventions, etc. are handled within the university community. Faculty members are paid a salary for their teaching and research activities. What happens if a faculty member discovers a treatment for X? What happens with the patent, etc.?

Our friend Dr. Peter Hoetz is a member of the Baylor faculty and also a developer of vaccines. Is he entitled to patents, royalties, etc.????

I'm not going to get into everything wrong with IP laws in america those examples do nothing to refute even one of my examples.

Regular students are allowed to profit off any number of things that athletes arent and thats wrong.

(06-28-2021 09:09 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 08:57 AM)emu steve Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 08:18 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 07:54 AM)emu79 Wrote:  

(06-27-2021 06:54 PM)Jerry Weaver Wrote:  Steve, once again, makes a bulletproof point with respect to logic. This is a situation we all wish could be better.

That said, the NFL and NBA minor leagues have nowhere near the network of the MLB with respect to the minor leagues. The Spring Football League, that Matt Sexton played in only provides room and board to it participants. The NBA G League is far more lucrative but provides a microscopic footprint in comparison to to MLB.

Most MLB minor league players are employed as Steve says, to provide game opportunities for true prospects. They make peanuts for a salary and are needlessly postponing their long term career prospects. At first glance they are indeed exploited.

At the end of the day, however, the USA is a free country. A 21 year old is able to pursue his dream of a professional baseball career, no matter how glim those prospects might be. He also enjoys the opportunity to play competitive baseball in the minor leagues while he still is physically capable of doing so. Baseball, after all is not golf. I was not a NCAA star baseball player but if not for the big staple in my shoulder, I would have welcomed the chance to play in the minor leagues.

Steve is an intelligent and compassionate guy like Dan, with a great on its face argument. Unfortunately in their genuine zest to improve athletes situations, by paying NCCA players or improving MLB minor league salaries, the likely result will be the unintended consequences of contracting opportunities for said athletes. Less NCCA scholarships and less MLB minor league teams.

You forgot minor league hockey.

(06-28-2021 08:09 AM)emu79 Wrote:  To put in perspective there are millions of college students who work in retail and service industries to work to help pay college costs and take out debt to get their degrees. Ditto those who support families pay their own room and board and medical care.
Just making sure we talk about exploitation it comes in all forms everyday in millions of American lives.

Look the scope of this thread is the changing / emerging economic shifts in player rights and compensation at the NCAA level - not all economic realities facing new college students.

BUT if you want revisit these points: average college students dont generate income for the university like football players and average college students dont have limits on making money on their Names, Image, and Likeness rights. average college students and barter their value at jobs and join unions.

Actually you've crossed a line I'm not sure you wanted to.

Universities have to balance budgets which means that students (or more likely parents) and the state, etc. put up tons of money to operate.

A non-scholarship student may pay say 25K+ (and much higher for some schools) for tuition and residence hall room and board.

A scholarship athlete pays zero. If a scholarship athlete lives off campus the student-athlete is a cash expense on the school's profit and loss statement. Plus COA, books, etc. etc.

As as '79 has stated many times, a small number of D-I or D-II or NAIA, etc. schools operate at a profit.

There are over 350 D-I schools and less than say 50 operate at a profit.

College athletes are like the federal government, they may take in a helluva lot of moolah but spent a helluva lot more...

As I have posted before, I believe EMU spends about 16 or 17M a year CASH on athletics and their income, all sources, is maybe 1/3 of it. This does not count things like the value of scholarships as it isn't a cash item directly.

I majored in philosophy. If I wrote an awesome paper and a publication wanted to buy it from me and publish it - I would be allowed to. I'm a comedian. If comedy central wanted to book me and make a special and advertise that I'm funny use my name, image, and likeness i would be allowed to cash those checks. If i had a family friend that REALLY wanted me to attend EMU and wanted to help out with expenses - they could do that. If a professor wanted to buy me lunch - they could. Athletes can't do any of that and thats fundamentally wrong.

The economics of the university or how many college lose money on sports is meaningless - restriction of trade is restriction of trade and is DEEPLY un-American.

And paying out even more $$$ to athletes and having the rest of the students pay the difference is unjust. And paying more,$$$$ when the red ink is already overflowing isveconomic suicide which will lead to empty stadiums and arenas unless there is severe reform.

(06-28-2021 09:37 AM)emu79 Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 09:09 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 08:57 AM)emu steve Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 08:18 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 07:54 AM)emu79 Wrote:  You forgot minor league hockey.

(06-28-2021 08:09 AM)emu79 Wrote:  To put in perspective there are millions of college students who work in retail and service industries to work to help pay college costs and take out debt to get their degrees. Ditto those who support families pay their own room and board and medical care.
Just making sure we talk about exploitation it comes in all forms everyday in millions of American lives.

Look the scope of this thread is the changing / emerging economic shifts in player rights and compensation at the NCAA level - not all economic realities facing new college students.

BUT if you want revisit these points: average college students dont generate income for the university like football players and average college students dont have limits on making money on their Names, Image, and Likeness rights. average college students and barter their value at jobs and join unions.

Actually you've crossed a line I'm not sure you wanted to.

Universities have to balance budgets which means that students (or more likely parents) and the state, etc. put up tons of money to operate.

A non-scholarship student may pay say 25K+ (and much higher for some schools) for tuition and residence hall room and board.

A scholarship athlete pays zero. If a scholarship athlete lives off campus the student-athlete is a cash expense on the school's profit and loss statement. Plus COA, books, etc. etc.

As as '79 has stated many times, a small number of D-I or D-II or NAIA, etc. schools operate at a profit.

There are over 350 D-I schools and less than say 50 operate at a profit.

College athletes are like the federal government, they may take in a helluva lot of moolah but spent a helluva lot more...

As I have posted before, I believe EMU spends about 16 or 17M a year CASH on athletics and their income, all sources, is maybe 1/3 of it. This does not count things like the value of scholarships as it isn't a cash item directly.

I majored in philosophy. If I wrote an awesome paper and a publication wanted to buy it from me and publish it - I would be allowed to. I'm a comedian. If comedy central wanted to book me and make a special and advertise that I'm funny use my name, image, and likeness i would be allowed to cash those checks. If i had a family friend that REALLY wanted me to attend EMU and wanted to help out with expenses - they could do that. If a professor wanted to buy me lunch - they could. Athletes can't do any of that and thats fundamentally wrong.

The economics of the university or how many college lose money on sports is meaningless - restriction of trade is restriction of trade and is DEEPLY un-American.

And paying out even more $$$ to athletes and having the rest of the students pay the difference is unjust. And paying more,$$$$ when the red ink is already overflowing isveconomic suicide which will lead to empty stadiums and arenas unless there is severe reform.

If you run a business and you don't make any money you arent legally allowed to not pay your employees.

(06-28-2021 09:37 AM)emu79 Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 09:09 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 08:57 AM)emu steve Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 08:18 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 07:54 AM)emu79 Wrote:  You forgot minor league hockey.

(06-28-2021 08:09 AM)emu79 Wrote:  To put in perspective there are millions of college students who work in retail and service industries to work to help pay college costs and take out debt to get their degrees. Ditto those who support families pay their own room and board and medical care.
Just making sure we talk about exploitation it comes in all forms everyday in millions of American lives.

Look the scope of this thread is the changing / emerging economic shifts in player rights and compensation at the NCAA level - not all economic realities facing new college students.

BUT if you want revisit these points: average college students dont generate income for the university like football players and average college students dont have limits on making money on their Names, Image, and Likeness rights. average college students and barter their value at jobs and join unions.

Actually you've crossed a line I'm not sure you wanted to.

Universities have to balance budgets which means that students (or more likely parents) and the state, etc. put up tons of money to operate.

A non-scholarship student may pay say 25K+ (and much higher for some schools) for tuition and residence hall room and board.

A scholarship athlete pays zero. If a scholarship athlete lives off campus the student-athlete is a cash expense on the school's profit and loss statement. Plus COA, books, etc. etc.

As as '79 has stated many times, a small number of D-I or D-II or NAIA, etc. schools operate at a profit.

There are over 350 D-I schools and less than say 50 operate at a profit.

College athletes are like the federal government, they may take in a helluva lot of moolah but spent a helluva lot more...

As I have posted before, I believe EMU spends about 16 or 17M a year CASH on athletics and their income, all sources, is maybe 1/3 of it. This does not count things like the value of scholarships as it isn't a cash item directly.

I majored in philosophy. If I wrote an awesome paper and a publication wanted to buy it from me and publish it - I would be allowed to. I'm a comedian. If comedy central wanted to book me and make a special and advertise that I'm funny use my name, image, and likeness i would be allowed to cash those checks. If i had a family friend that REALLY wanted me to attend EMU and wanted to help out with expenses - they could do that. If a professor wanted to buy me lunch - they could. Athletes can't do any of that and thats fundamentally wrong.

The economics of the university or how many college lose money on sports is meaningless - restriction of trade is restriction of trade and is DEEPLY un-American.

And paying out even more $$$ to athletes and having the rest of the students pay the difference is unjust. And paying more,$$$$ when the red ink is already overflowing isveconomic suicide which will lead to empty stadiums and arenas unless there is severe reform.

Okay, time for a joke (and also a true story):

When I came to D.C. I was hit by 'culture shock.' My phone bill from Yypi to NoVa went up about 3 times.

I asked why? Someone said, "you'd like the company you work for to make a profit. Right?"

I said, "the enterprise I work for hasn't turned a profit in decades." Hint: Federal government is to whom I refer.

Reading this thread, "Money Monday", I suggest: We cancel Mondays. No one seems to like them anyways. And since "money is the root of all evil" maybe we should go back to the barter system.

(06-28-2021 09:48 AM)emu steve Wrote:  Reading this thread, "Money Monday", I suggest: We cancel Mondays. No one seems to like them anyways. And since "money is the root of all evil" maybe we should go back to the barter system.

Greed is the root of all evil, not money.

Going back to the conversation about NIL rights - keep an eye on social media for players as the rules change. the second NIL rights kick in every player will become an 'influencer' tweeting or gramming about various products and services. i can also see players start to host podcasts and cash in on their name in some small way that route.

On a different note Michigan still has not passed the overall budget beginning Oct 1. One of the missing pieces is university funding including federal covid money.

(06-28-2021 09:37 AM)emu79 Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 09:09 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 08:57 AM)emu steve Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 08:18 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 07:54 AM)emu79 Wrote:  You forgot minor league hockey.

(06-28-2021 08:09 AM)emu79 Wrote:  To put in perspective there are millions of college students who work in retail and service industries to work to help pay college costs and take out debt to get their degrees. Ditto those who support families pay their own room and board and medical care.
Just making sure we talk about exploitation it comes in all forms everyday in millions of American lives.

Look the scope of this thread is the changing / emerging economic shifts in player rights and compensation at the NCAA level - not all economic realities facing new college students.

BUT if you want revisit these points: average college students dont generate income for the university like football players and average college students dont have limits on making money on their Names, Image, and Likeness rights. average college students and barter their value at jobs and join unions.

Actually you've crossed a line I'm not sure you wanted to.

Universities have to balance budgets which means that students (or more likely parents) and the state, etc. put up tons of money to operate.

A non-scholarship student may pay say 25K+ (and much higher for some schools) for tuition and residence hall room and board.

A scholarship athlete pays zero. If a scholarship athlete lives off campus the student-athlete is a cash expense on the school's profit and loss statement. Plus COA, books, etc. etc.

As as '79 has stated many times, a small number of D-I or D-II or NAIA, etc. schools operate at a profit.

There are over 350 D-I schools and less than say 50 operate at a profit.

College athletes are like the federal government, they may take in a helluva lot of moolah but spent a helluva lot more...

As I have posted before, I believe EMU spends about 16 or 17M a year CASH on athletics and their income, all sources, is maybe 1/3 of it. This does not count things like the value of scholarships as it isn't a cash item directly.

I majored in philosophy. If I wrote an awesome paper and a publication wanted to buy it from me and publish it - I would be allowed to. I'm a comedian. If comedy central wanted to book me and make a special and advertise that I'm funny use my name, image, and likeness i would be allowed to cash those checks. If i had a family friend that REALLY wanted me to attend EMU and wanted to help out with expenses - they could do that. If a professor wanted to buy me lunch - they could. Athletes can't do any of that and thats fundamentally wrong.

The economics of the university or how many college lose money on sports is meaningless - restriction of trade is restriction of trade and is DEEPLY un-American.

And paying out even more $$$ to athletes and having the rest of the students pay the difference is unjust. And paying more,$$$$ when the red ink is already overflowing isveconomic suicide which will lead to empty stadiums and arenas unless there is severe reform.

Deadeye there "79!

One could focus on Nick Saban's $10M salary and the incredible revenues of the NCAA basketball tournament. They are obscene and compelling to the public's distaste. This stuff needs to be fixed! At least that is what most think.

Don't look too far into the weeds however, the EMU's of the world DO NOT have the the fiscal revenues that the 30 profitable NCAA programs do. The scholarship athlete at Eastern is provided free tuition, room and board off the backs of normal academic students.

I believe there is budget agreement on a 8% increase in K-12 this upcoming fiscal year. The universities would be thrilled to even get half that increase.

(06-30-2021 06:02 PM)Jerry Weaver Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 09:37 AM)emu79 Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 09:09 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 08:57 AM)emu steve Wrote:  

(06-28-2021 08:18 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  Look the scope of this thread is the changing / emerging economic shifts in player rights and compensation at the NCAA level - not all economic realities facing new college students.

BUT if you want revisit these points: average college students dont generate income for the university like football players and average college students dont have limits on making money on their Names, Image, and Likeness rights. average college students and barter their value at jobs and join unions.

Actually you've crossed a line I'm not sure you wanted to.

Universities have to balance budgets which means that students (or more likely parents) and the state, etc. put up tons of money to operate.

A non-scholarship student may pay say 25K+ (and much higher for some schools) for tuition and residence hall room and board.

A scholarship athlete pays zero. If a scholarship athlete lives off campus the student-athlete is a cash expense on the school's profit and loss statement. Plus COA, books, etc. etc.

As as '79 has stated many times, a small number of D-I or D-II or NAIA, etc. schools operate at a profit.

There are over 350 D-I schools and less than say 50 operate at a profit.

College athletes are like the federal government, they may take in a helluva lot of moolah but spent a helluva lot more...

As I have posted before, I believe EMU spends about 16 or 17M a year CASH on athletics and their income, all sources, is maybe 1/3 of it. This does not count things like the value of scholarships as it isn't a cash item directly.

I majored in philosophy. If I wrote an awesome paper and a publication wanted to buy it from me and publish it - I would be allowed to. I'm a comedian. If comedy central wanted to book me and make a special and advertise that I'm funny use my name, image, and likeness i would be allowed to cash those checks. If i had a family friend that REALLY wanted me to attend EMU and wanted to help out with expenses - they could do that. If a professor wanted to buy me lunch - they could. Athletes can't do any of that and thats fundamentally wrong.

The economics of the university or how many college lose money on sports is meaningless - restriction of trade is restriction of trade and is DEEPLY un-American.

And paying out even more $$$ to athletes and having the rest of the students pay the difference is unjust. And paying more,$$$$ when the red ink is already overflowing isveconomic suicide which will lead to empty stadiums and arenas unless there is severe reform.

Deadeye there "79!

One could focus on Nick Saban's $10M salary and the incredible revenues of the NCAA basketball tournament. They are obscene and compelling to the public's distaste. This stuff needs to be fixed! At least that is what most think.

Don't look too far into the weeds however, the EMU's of the world DO NOT have the the fiscal revenues that the 30 profitable NCAA programs do. The scholarship athlete at Eastern is provided free tuition, room and board off the backs of normal academic students.

I assume almost all of Saban's salary is donor money.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/e...810603002/

And to be less provincial about budgets and new fiscal years, 46 states celebrate a new (fiscal) year today. Happy New Years. MI is late to the party, but we can celebrate in 3 months. That said, Michiganders can celebrate with the Federal government Oct. 1.

"Introduction
Forty-six states began fiscal year 2021 on July 1, 2020. New York began its fiscal year on April 1, Texas begins its fiscal year on Sept. 1, and Alabama and Michigan begin theirs on Oct. 1. As of July 1, 42 states had enacted budgets for FY 2021. Sixteen of those states enacted a biennial budget during their 2019 legislative session. Due to the effects of COVID-19 on state fiscal circumstances, five states have temporary spending plans in place, and New Jersey has extended its fiscal year through Sept. 30."

https://www.ncsl.org/research/fiscal-pol...tatus.aspx

Happy NIL Rights Day. Now that players can get paid I wonder if Dabo is going to retire:
https://www.latimes.com/sports/story/201...ng-players

I'll weigh in later with an article from USA Today where players are already making plans for $33 shirts.

I will remind DP that pro athletes who made big bucks on autographs, didn't pay taxes on such, etc. were prosecuted for tax evasion. Income is income. They will literally be small business men (and women). Lest I be wrong a CFO in NYC has been indicted on charges of not reporting taxable income on things some consider 'perks.'

I believe that a marathon runner who gets 50K or 100K for winning a major marathon that those monies are considered earnings and taxable.

When I worked, I got a bonus for my work on Y2K. That money was in a check and treated like any other earned income. Likewise, a 'performance bonus' for placing in a marathon is taxable income.

Also if it 'quakes like a duck, looks like a duck, it is a duck.' If college players are de facto pros with pro rights, their scholarships, etc. could be considered taxable by IRS.

As far as SCOTUS is concerned, they can rule on anti-trust, etc. but it DOES NOT preclude the IRS considering those athletes to be pros. Those are completely separate issues.

And again I'll indicate that if a Ph.D. student teaches say undergrad courses that teaching assistant income is considered wages for services performed and is taxable.

Much of American business is very mature. Ford has a collective bargaining relationship with the UAW. The legal issues are all flushed out. This changing landscape in college athletics is completely new. Labor laws have not be flushed out. Tax law has not be flushed out.

I suspect Congress will need to decide the laws like IRS has ruled on similar cases of college students receiving things of value. Much of that is settled tax law. This????

(07-01-2021 07:57 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  Happy NIL Rights Day. Now that players can get paid I wonder if Dabo is going to retire:
https://www.latimes.com/sports/story/201...ng-players

Last I checked the NFL paid players more than what Dabo is earning.

Dabo is a professional employee of Clemson. The QB was not.