This is crazy what Gonzaga is doing. They are proving that a mid major can get great recruits. What,they now have 3 5 star recruits to go with some already top notch talent. Let this sink in, they got the number 1 player in the country. Is this a fluke? Can this happen anywhere? I think sustained winning can, but man, it takes years and years of it. Could this be a trend, maybe? I doubt it, but you see VCU, loyola, Richmond, butler, st. mary's and other small schools doing it. I think it's great and I believe if you would allow g5's in the football playoff, this would happen in college football, not right away but players want exposure and constant winning does that. Thoughts?

(05-16-2021 07:19 AM)jaybird44 Wrote:  This is crazy what Gonzaga is doing. They are proving that a mid major can get great recruits. What,they now have 3 5 star recruits to go with some already top notch talent. Let this sink in, they got the number 1 player in the country. Is this a fluke? Can this happen anywhere? I think sustained winning can, but man, it takes years and years of it. Could this be a trend, maybe? I doubt it, but you see VCU, loyola, Richmond, butler, st. mary's and other small schools doing it. I think it's great and I believe if you would allow g5's in the football playoff, this would happen in college football, not right away but players want exposure and constant winning does that. Thoughts?

But you don't see those other schools doing it. You only see them have their brief moment in the sun, and then they fall back. They are still good, but not blue chip good.

At the same time, that can also be said of most programs in the power conferences as well. There's only so much five star talent out there, and those players want to play together. With today's technology, they can recruit each other without leaving home. Gonzaga is very much an exception, not a harbinger of things to come.

25 year of sustained success will do that. Perhaps if Brad Stevens had stayed at Butler they too would be on their way to becoming a national basketball power. Maybe it really does come down to the Coach. If Few would have bolted long ago where would Gonzaga be? Their next coach might have continued the winning, or not!

Gonzaga also took advantage of a relatively weak Pac-12 for a long time (one Final Four team for entire decade of 2010's) and very little competition in the Pacific Northwest. Other "mid-majors" in other areas have to compete with power conferences. Wichita State made the Final Four in 2013. They also beat Kansas in the 2015 NCAA Tournament and made the Sweet 16. But in the long run, Kansas is going to be the dominant team in the state. Loyola made the Final Four in 2018 and also beat Illinois to make this year's Sweet 16. I hope eventually Illinois returns to become the dominant team in the state. The fact that Porter Moser left for Oklahoma helps. And Loyola also isn't just competing with Illinois but a lot of great men's basketball schools in neighboring Midwestern states like Wisconsin and Purdue who have been more consistent winners than Illinois has lately. VCU in 2011 couldn't maintain it either with Virginia in their state and right next to North Carolina. If you're a mid major competing locally in ACC/Big Ten/Big East territory, you're going to have an uphill battle. Even in California, you're still second choice to the four California Pac-12 schools if not out of state schools (when does Loyola Marymount or Long Beach State get any top LA recruits?) Gonzaga doesn't have that problem. The top Seattle area talent would probably rather go to Gonzaga than Washington (who would go to Washington now?) The only one of the four Pac-12 schools in the Pacific Northwest that's any threat to Gonzaga is Oregon. Why would you go to VCU when you can go to Virginia? Why would you go to Wichita State when you can go to Kansas? Gonzaga is the #1 school in Washington now. How many non Power 6 schools can say that (and don't include schools in states that don't have P6's like Vermont)?

It can be done its just an uphill battle, especially compared to a blueblood P5.

More realistic for most is to have Belmont type success where you are a power within your conference.

I do think mid majors have an advantage out west with less D1 teams overall PAC (12), MWC (12), WCC (10), Big Sky (11), Big West (11), WAC (13) for an area that covers 40% of the US. Mid majors tend to do better when there is less competition.

(05-16-2021 08:13 AM)schmolik Wrote:  Gonzaga also took advantage of a relatively weak Pac-12 for a long time (one Final Four team for entire decade of 2010's) and very little competition in the Pacific Northwest. Other "mid-majors" in other areas have to compete with power conferences. Wichita State made the Final Four in 2013. They also beat Kansas in the 2015 NCAA Tournament and made the Sweet 16. But in the long run, Kansas is going to be the dominant team in the state. Loyola made the Final Four in 2018 and also beat Illinois to make this year's Sweet 16. I hope eventually Illinois returns to become the dominant team in the state. The fact that Porter Moser left for Oklahoma helps. And Loyola also isn't just competing with Illinois but a lot of great men's basketball schools in neighboring Midwestern states like Wisconsin and Purdue who have been more consistent winners than Illinois has lately. VCU in 2011 couldn't maintain it either with Virginia in their state and right next to North Carolina. If you're a mid major competing locally in ACC/Big Ten/Big East/SEC territory, you're going to have an uphill battle. Even in California, you're still second choice to the four California Pac-12 schools if not out of state schools (when does Loyola Marymount or Long Beach State get any top LA recruits?) Gonzaga doesn't have that problem. The top Seattle area talent would probably rather go to Gonzaga than Washington (who would go to Washington now?) The only one of the four Pac-12 schools in the Pacific Northwest that's any threat to Gonzaga is Oregon. Why would you go to VCU when you can go to Virginia? Why would you go to Wichita State when you can go to Kansas? Gonzaga is the #1 school in Washington now. How many non Power 6 schools can say that (and don't include schools in states that don't have P6's like Vermont)?

Memphis can say that. I would dare say that Memphis is the top basketball team in the state of Tennessee right now.

(05-16-2021 10:20 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(05-16-2021 08:13 AM)schmolik Wrote:  Gonzaga also took advantage of a relatively weak Pac-12 for a long time (one Final Four team for entire decade of 2010's) and very little competition in the Pacific Northwest. Other "mid-majors" in other areas have to compete with power conferences. Wichita State made the Final Four in 2013. They also beat Kansas in the 2015 NCAA Tournament and made the Sweet 16. But in the long run, Kansas is going to be the dominant team in the state. Loyola made the Final Four in 2018 and also beat Illinois to make this year's Sweet 16. I hope eventually Illinois returns to become the dominant team in the state. The fact that Porter Moser left for Oklahoma helps. And Loyola also isn't just competing with Illinois but a lot of great men's basketball schools in neighboring Midwestern states like Wisconsin and Purdue who have been more consistent winners than Illinois has lately. VCU in 2011 couldn't maintain it either with Virginia in their state and right next to North Carolina. If you're a mid major competing locally in ACC/Big Ten/Big East/SEC territory, you're going to have an uphill battle. Even in California, you're still second choice to the four California Pac-12 schools if not out of state schools (when does Loyola Marymount or Long Beach State get any top LA recruits?) Gonzaga doesn't have that problem. The top Seattle area talent would probably rather go to Gonzaga than Washington (who would go to Washington now?) The only one of the four Pac-12 schools in the Pacific Northwest that's any threat to Gonzaga is Oregon. Why would you go to VCU when you can go to Virginia? Why would you go to Wichita State when you can go to Kansas? Gonzaga is the #1 school in Washington now. How many non Power 6 schools can say that (and don't include schools in states that don't have P6's like Vermont)?

Memphis can say that. I would dare say that Memphis is the top basketball team in the state of Tennessee right now.

Wouldn’t Memphis also be a competitor with Arkansas?

Tennessee is likely the top men's hoops program in the state at this point. And as a Vanderbilt and Memphis fan, I have to be honest about it.

Memphis Tiger hoops (as I have posted on this board previously) is a "different animal" compared to the vast majority of Division I men's basketball programs. The city's location as a "geographic outlier" in Tennessee, the huge African-American Tiger fan base, the strong history (the Tigers have been nationally competitive since the 1950s) and various cultural/media/recruiting dynamics make the Tiger program one of the more unusual in the nation.

To Sicembear11's question, Memphis competes with Arkansas, Ole Miss, Mississippi State and Tennessee for both recruits and fans (though that competition for support is likely more so for white fans as most black Memphians root for the Tigers in basketball more so than SEC teams from what I've observed, discussed and witnessed).

And, Jaybird44 (and for whatever it's worth), I strongly consider Gonzaga a major program. The only thing "mid-major" about the Zags program is its affiliation with the WCC.

Gonzaga spends more on Basketball than half the D-I schools spend on all sports.

It's not a case of a minor. They are consistently among the top 15 in budget. That is a high Major.

(05-16-2021 12:28 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Gonzaga spends more on Basketball than half the D-I schools spend on all sports.

It's not a case of a minor. They are consistently among the top 15 in budget. That is a high Major.

Agree fully.

Gonzaga ceased being a mid-major a long time ago.

Gonzaga is a new-money, current power, in college basketball. They can be an ideal and optimal blueprint for all mid-majors seeking to invest in itself and grow long-term in the top-level of college basketball. But make no mistake, they are not viewed as a mid-major, nor do they have mid-major qualities or track record. That wasn't always the case, but they certainly aren't mid-major today.

I've long thought that for some fans it is simply too easy to equate college football and basketball programs regarding the "major" designations. Some folks simply don't take the time to see the differences between the two sports. Those type fans tend to consider Gonzaga, Butler, Dayton, Wichita, etc. as "mid-major" men's basketball programs. They are not.

(05-16-2021 07:19 AM)jaybird44 Wrote:  This is crazy what Gonzaga is doing. They are proving that a mid major can get great recruits. What,they now have 3 5 star recruits to go with some already top notch talent. Let this sink in, they got the number 1 player in the country. Is this a fluke? Can this happen anywhere? I think sustained winning can, but man, it takes years and years of it. Could this be a trend, maybe? I doubt it, but you see VCU, loyola, Richmond, butler, st. mary's and other small schools doing it. I think it's great and I believe if you would allow g5's in the football playoff, this would happen in college football, not right away but players want exposure and constant winning does that. Thoughts?

You don't find it strange that a lower level Jesuit University in the middle of nowhere in the Nothwest is getting these kind of recruits? It was a fun story for a little while not it had gone from curious to suspicious. What's the allure? Playing meaningless conference games and getting a gift #1 seed?

(05-16-2021 12:28 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Gonzaga spends more on Basketball than half the D-I schools spend on all sports.

It's not a case of a minor. They are consistently among the top 15 in budget. That is a high Major.

So they are buying players? If so, now it all makes sense.

Also think about the fact that a starting basketball team has 5 players and a starting football team (offense and defense) is 22 players. It's a lot easier to build a top basketball program than it is a top football program. You bring Jalen Suggs to Gonzaga and you're in the title game. You bring Jalen Brunson to Villanova and you win the national championship. You bring one of them to UCF and even if he's the quarterback you still need receivers, running backs, blockers, and defense. Sure, Suggs and Brunson needed teammates too but a lot fewer. It's easier for one big star to lift a team in basketball (men's or women's) than football.

(05-16-2021 02:11 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  Gonzaga ceased being a mid-major a long time ago.

Yeah, there was a time when they couldn’t get big or fast guys. But still had solid players. Over time, they could get fast guys, then big guys. Now, they can get big and fast guys and practically hang around and beat anybody.

The only thing “mid-major” about them is their conference and competition. The worst they’ve had in the last ten or so years, they weren’t winning the must-have games in their non-conference, and then saw a strong Saint Mary’s who had them beat in the season. Except, “who better than ‘Zaga,” they go and win AQ and STILL make the Sweet Sixteen that season.

If there is a line for what defines “mid-major,” is it the likes of SDSU, Dayton, and VCU these days? Because, if so, those guys have nothing on Gonzaga. Heck, I don’t even know about the likes of the upper crust/legacy programs of the AAC. The thing Gonzaga doesn’t have on those programs, like Cincy, Temple, or Memphis is legacy. They are new blood...not quite known yet if they can sustain some quality away from Few. But then, that’s why it wouldn’t surprise me if Gonzaga does eventually work something out with the Big East, and the program can be cradled and fostered the same way you see Xavier, Butler, and Creighton now.

(05-16-2021 08:35 PM)Scoochpooch1 Wrote:  

(05-16-2021 07:19 AM)jaybird44 Wrote:  This is crazy what Gonzaga is doing. They are proving that a mid major can get great recruits. What,they now have 3 5 star recruits to go with some already top notch talent. Let this sink in, they got the number 1 player in the country. Is this a fluke? Can this happen anywhere? I think sustained winning can, but man, it takes years and years of it. Could this be a trend, maybe? I doubt it, but you see VCU, loyola, Richmond, butler, st. mary's and other small schools doing it. I think it's great and I believe if you would allow g5's in the football playoff, this would happen in college football, not right away but players want exposure and constant winning does that. Thoughts?

You don't find it strange that a lower level Jesuit University in the middle of nowhere in the Nothwest is getting these kind of recruits? It was a fun story for a little while not it had gone from curious to suspicious. What's the allure? Playing meaningless conference games and getting a gift #1 seed?

Are you suggesting that Gonzaga is outcheating the blue bloods of the sport? Or at least cheating as effectively?

(05-16-2021 08:13 AM)schmolik Wrote:  Gonzaga also took advantage of a relatively weak Pac-12 for a long time (one Final Four team for entire decade of 2010's) and very little competition in the Pacific Northwest. Other "mid-majors" in other areas have to compete with power conferences. Wichita State made the Final Four in 2013. They also beat Kansas in the 2015 NCAA Tournament and made the Sweet 16. But in the long run, Kansas is going to be the dominant team in the state. Loyola made the Final Four in 2018 and also beat Illinois to make this year's Sweet 16. I hope eventually Illinois returns to become the dominant team in the state. The fact that Porter Moser left for Oklahoma helps. And Loyola also isn't just competing with Illinois but a lot of great men's basketball schools in neighboring Midwestern states like Wisconsin and Purdue who have been more consistent winners than Illinois has lately. VCU in 2011 couldn't maintain it either with Virginia in their state and right next to North Carolina. If you're a mid major competing locally in ACC/Big Ten/Big East territory, you're going to have an uphill battle. Even in California, you're still second choice to the four California Pac-12 schools if not out of state schools (when does Loyola Marymount or Long Beach State get any top LA recruits?) Gonzaga doesn't have that problem. The top Seattle area talent would probably rather go to Gonzaga than Washington (who would go to Washington now?) The only one of the four Pac-12 schools in the Pacific Northwest that's any threat to Gonzaga is Oregon. Why would you go to VCU when you can go to Virginia? Why would you go to Wichita State when you can go to Kansas? Gonzaga is the #1 school in Washington now. How many non Power 6 schools can say that (and don't include schools in states that don't have P6's like Vermont)?

Gonzaga isn't winning with PAC 12 recruits. Other than Kispert (who is from the Seattle area), their key 2021 players were from Minnesota, Texas, France, Ontario Canada, and Illinois. They're out-recruiting everyone, not just the PAC 12.

(05-16-2021 07:58 AM)PicksUp Wrote:  25 year of sustained success will do that. Perhaps if Brad Stevens had stayed at Butler they too would be on their way to becoming a national basketball power. Maybe it really does come down to the Coach. If Few would have bolted long ago where would Gonzaga be? Their next coach might have continued the winning, or not!

Even with Stevens leaving, though, Butler ended up in the Big East. So, Butler was able to parlay that success into a power conference home that may not ever be available to Gonzaga (largely due to geography). Think of how Butler was the overachieving mid-major in the 2011 National Championship Game against UConn, but less than a decade later, UConn ended up joining (or re-joining depending on how you look at it) *Butler’s* conference!