Before getting into the latest rumor du jour, I would like to repost the stipulation I answered NoDak with every time he posited some tiny school adding a D-I hockey program:

-Any time you post a rumor or a theory that a school is starting Division I men's hockey program, identify the source of either:

1. $100M to build an arena and fund a program

OR

2. $30M to start a program and the name of the arena the school will use.

Having said that, the Nashville Post is reporting that Tennessee State "will reportedly announce soon announce plans to conduct a feasibility study with the goal of determining the viability of starting a hockey program at TSU as well as how much fundraising would need to be done."

My guess is that when they see exactly how much it will cost the interest will disappear. But without our good buddy NoDak to float these wild college hockey rumors it has been a boring stream of FBS mumbo jumbo around here.

https://www.nashvillepost.com/sports/col...5f895.html

Would they be the first HBCU to have a hockey program?

Was just reading NoDak’s posts in the Illinois Hockey thread a few hours ago. He had some excellent posts in that thread.

Adding the women to the conversation.

D'Youville College (D2, Reclassifying Year 1) is seeking a head coach for a yet-to-be-announced new women's team. It seems they intend to be a D1 team and a possible addition to the NEWHA.

https://ncaamarket.ncaa.org/jobs/1467821...ckey-coach

(04-26-2021 02:43 PM)ccd494 Wrote:  Before getting into the latest rumor du jour, I would like to repost the stipulation I answered NoDak with every time he posited some tiny school adding a D-I hockey program:

-Any time you post a rumor or a theory that a school is starting Division I men's hockey program, identify the source of either:

1. $100M to build an arena and fund a program

OR

2. $30M to start a program and the name of the arena the school will use.

Having said that, the Nashville Post is reporting that Tennessee State "will reportedly announce soon announce plans to conduct a feasibility study with the goal of determining the viability of starting a hockey program at TSU as well as how much fundraising would need to be done."

My guess is that when they see exactly how much it will cost the interest will disappear. But without our good buddy NoDak to float these wild college hockey rumors it has been a boring stream of FBS mumbo jumbo around here.

https://www.nashvillepost.com/sports/col...5f895.html

Surprised Hampton hasn't considered it. They have a 10,000 seat arena 5 minutes from campus that could serve as home ice and a potential practice facility another 10 minutes west. The $40 million is a killer, though.

So, either (1) this is somebody getting lobbied to start a hockey program saying, "yeah, let's study that" knowing what is what or (2) this is a Tennessee State alum working in tech who is also a hockey fan whose company just made him modestly wealthy with an oversubscribed IPO.

Why would a Tennessee Tech alum want to start a hockey program at Tennessee State?

I will remind everyone that my alma mater Liberty has been finding multiple ACHA teams in both men & women for years. And we have a mall arena on campus. But obviously it hasnt been a prioriity for us to pull the trigger on moving up yet.

I'd love to see more teams (especially in non-traditional markets) get D1 hockey.

(04-26-2021 02:43 PM)ccd494 Wrote:  Before getting into the latest rumor du jour, I would like to repost the stipulation I answered NoDak with every time he posited some tiny school adding a D-I hockey program:

-Any time you post a rumor or a theory that a school is starting Division I men's hockey program, identify the source of either:

1. $100M to build an arena and fund a program

OR

2. $30M to start a program and the name of the arena the school will use.

Having said that, the Nashville Post is reporting that Tennessee State "will reportedly announce soon announce plans to conduct a feasibility study with the goal of determining the viability of starting a hockey program at TSU as well as how much fundraising would need to be done."

My guess is that when they see exactly how much it will cost the interest will disappear. But without our good buddy NoDak to float these wild college hockey rumors it has been a boring stream of FBS mumbo jumbo around here.

https://www.nashvillepost.com/sports/col...5f895.html

Why is the startup cost $30m if you have an arena available? Not saying you're wrong, just trying to understand the costs.

(04-27-2021 12:21 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  

(04-26-2021 02:43 PM)ccd494 Wrote:  Before getting into the latest rumor du jour, I would like to repost the stipulation I answered NoDak with every time he posited some tiny school adding a D-I hockey program:

-Any time you post a rumor or a theory that a school is starting Division I men's hockey program, identify the source of either:

1. $100M to build an arena and fund a program

OR

2. $30M to start a program and the name of the arena the school will use.

Having said that, the Nashville Post is reporting that Tennessee State "will reportedly announce soon announce plans to conduct a feasibility study with the goal of determining the viability of starting a hockey program at TSU as well as how much fundraising would need to be done."

My guess is that when they see exactly how much it will cost the interest will disappear. But without our good buddy NoDak to float these wild college hockey rumors it has been a boring stream of FBS mumbo jumbo around here.

https://www.nashvillepost.com/sports/col...5f895.html

Why is the startup cost $30m if you have an arena available? Not saying you're wrong, just trying to understand the costs.

For most schools, you can't just start up a Division I men's hockey team alone. You also may need to add one or more women's sports to balance that out for Title IX compliance issues. Add in the large number of scholarships required, higher equipment and facility costs (whether you own or rent an arena) compared to other sports, and higher travel expenses and it's a very large commitment. Hockey is generally the most expensive sport to run other than football.

(Note that Illinois, who was on the verge of adding men's hockey last year and still reviewing it now, determined that they didn't need to add any women's sports but would still comply with Title IX, because of how its student enrollment is majority male. However, that's going to be a rare situation in today's world where most colleges are majority female.)

(04-27-2021 12:21 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  

(04-26-2021 02:43 PM)ccd494 Wrote:  Before getting into the latest rumor du jour, I would like to repost the stipulation I answered NoDak with every time he posited some tiny school adding a D-I hockey program:

-Any time you post a rumor or a theory that a school is starting Division I men's hockey program, identify the source of either:

1. $100M to build an arena and fund a program

OR

2. $30M to start a program and the name of the arena the school will use.

Having said that, the Nashville Post is reporting that Tennessee State "will reportedly announce soon announce plans to conduct a feasibility study with the goal of determining the viability of starting a hockey program at TSU as well as how much fundraising would need to be done."

My guess is that when they see exactly how much it will cost the interest will disappear. But without our good buddy NoDak to float these wild college hockey rumors it has been a boring stream of FBS mumbo jumbo around here.

https://www.nashvillepost.com/sports/col...5f895.html

Why is the startup cost $30m if you have an arena available? Not saying you're wrong, just trying to understand the costs.

That's what the most recent startups have spent. Penn State started their program with a $100M+ donation from Sabres/Bills owner Terry Pegula. That built them an arena and a team.

Arizona State said they would start men's hockey with $30M in donations to endow the program, and estimated $1M in annual operating costs. They got $32M. They still don't have an arena that will get them into a conference.

The only other program that has started in the last twenty years is LIU, which announced it was starting a program around this time last year and managed to get up and running for the '20-'21 season. They managed to do it, and win two NCAA games (Holy Cross and Army). They did not have anything close to $30M when starting the program. In fact, a number of potential head coach candidates withdrew when they realized the program was being funded at a lower level than a lot of D-3 programs. It remains to be seen if this budget minded approach will work. I am incredibly skeptical.

So, $30M. That's the minimum price tag for a serious program. If you want to have a team that checks a box as existing, you can do it for cheaper, but it isn't going to be more than Division 1 in name only.

(04-27-2021 12:42 PM)ccd494 Wrote:  

(04-27-2021 12:21 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  

(04-26-2021 02:43 PM)ccd494 Wrote:  Before getting into the latest rumor du jour, I would like to repost the stipulation I answered NoDak with every time he posited some tiny school adding a D-I hockey program:

-Any time you post a rumor or a theory that a school is starting Division I men's hockey program, identify the source of either:

1. $100M to build an arena and fund a program

OR

2. $30M to start a program and the name of the arena the school will use.

Having said that, the Nashville Post is reporting that Tennessee State "will reportedly announce soon announce plans to conduct a feasibility study with the goal of determining the viability of starting a hockey program at TSU as well as how much fundraising would need to be done."

My guess is that when they see exactly how much it will cost the interest will disappear. But without our good buddy NoDak to float these wild college hockey rumors it has been a boring stream of FBS mumbo jumbo around here.

https://www.nashvillepost.com/sports/col...5f895.html

Why is the startup cost $30m if you have an arena available? Not saying you're wrong, just trying to understand the costs.

That's what the most recent startups have spent. Penn State started their program with a $100M+ donation from Sabres/Bills owner Terry Pegula. That built them an arena and a team.

Arizona State said they would start men's hockey with $30M in donations to endow the program, and estimated $1M in annual operating costs. They got $32M. They still don't have an arena that will get them into a conference.

The only other program that has started in the last twenty years is LIU, which announced it was starting a program around this time last year and managed to get up and running for the '20-'21 season. They managed to do it, and win two NCAA games (Holy Cross and Army). They did not have anything close to $30M when starting the program. In fact, a number of potential head coach candidates withdrew when they realized the program was being funded at a lower level than a lot of D-3 programs. It remains to be seen if this budget minded approach will work. I am incredibly skeptical.

So, $30M. That's the minimum price tag for a serious program. If you want to have a team that checks a box as existing, you can do it for cheaper, but it isn't going to be more than Division 1 in name only.

Thanks for the info. Shocking sticker price...no wonder so many schools don't offer it even when facilities are available.

(04-27-2021 08:17 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  

(04-27-2021 12:42 PM)ccd494 Wrote:  

(04-27-2021 12:21 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  

(04-26-2021 02:43 PM)ccd494 Wrote:  Before getting into the latest rumor du jour, I would like to repost the stipulation I answered NoDak with every time he posited some tiny school adding a D-I hockey program:

-Any time you post a rumor or a theory that a school is starting Division I men's hockey program, identify the source of either:

1. $100M to build an arena and fund a program

OR

2. $30M to start a program and the name of the arena the school will use.

Having said that, the Nashville Post is reporting that Tennessee State "will reportedly announce soon announce plans to conduct a feasibility study with the goal of determining the viability of starting a hockey program at TSU as well as how much fundraising would need to be done."

My guess is that when they see exactly how much it will cost the interest will disappear. But without our good buddy NoDak to float these wild college hockey rumors it has been a boring stream of FBS mumbo jumbo around here.

https://www.nashvillepost.com/sports/col...5f895.html

Why is the startup cost $30m if you have an arena available? Not saying you're wrong, just trying to understand the costs.

That's what the most recent startups have spent. Penn State started their program with a $100M+ donation from Sabres/Bills owner Terry Pegula. That built them an arena and a team.

Arizona State said they would start men's hockey with $30M in donations to endow the program, and estimated $1M in annual operating costs. They got $32M. They still don't have an arena that will get them into a conference.

The only other program that has started in the last twenty years is LIU, which announced it was starting a program around this time last year and managed to get up and running for the '20-'21 season. They managed to do it, and win two NCAA games (Holy Cross and Army). They did not have anything close to $30M when starting the program. In fact, a number of potential head coach candidates withdrew when they realized the program was being funded at a lower level than a lot of D-3 programs. It remains to be seen if this budget minded approach will work. I am incredibly skeptical.

So, $30M. That's the minimum price tag for a serious program. If you want to have a team that checks a box as existing, you can do it for cheaper, but it isn't going to be more than Division 1 in name only.

Thanks for the info. Shocking sticker price...no wonder so many schools don't offer it even when facilities are available.

It doesn't cost 30 million to start a team. Maybe if a school is looking for an endowment for the program it would. St. Thomas, for example, doesn't need 30 million to move their team up to D1 and neither did ASU. There can be a happy medium between what LIU did and a 30 million dollar "minimum" (but not really minimum).

(04-27-2021 11:18 AM)SlyFox Wrote:  Why would a Tennessee Tech alum want to start a hockey program at Tennessee State?

Fixed.

__________________________

(04-27-2021 09:45 PM)nodak651 Wrote:  It doesn't cost 30 million to start a team.

The claim regarded starting a "serious program"

Quote: Maybe if a school is looking for an endowment for the program it would. St. Thomas, for example, doesn't need 30 million to move their team up to D1 and neither did ASU.

St. Thomas would not be starting a program ... they've done substantial investment over time already.

As far as Arizona State, you are saying that they didn't need $30m, and ASU said they did.

(04-27-2021 10:14 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(04-27-2021 11:18 AM)SlyFox Wrote:  Why would a Tennessee Tech alum want to start a hockey program at Tennessee State?

Fixed.

__________________________

(04-27-2021 09:45 PM)nodak651 Wrote:  It doesn't cost 30 million to start a team.

The claim regarded starting a "serious program"

Quote: Maybe if a school is looking for an endowment for the program it would. St. Thomas, for example, doesn't need 30 million to move their team up to D1 and neither did ASU.

St. Thomas would not be starting a program ... they've done substantial investment over time already.

As far as Arizona State, you are saying that they didn't need $30m, and ASU said they did.

How hard is it to take a.club hockey team and make them a Division 1 team, Title IX difficulties aside??? The Georgia Bulldogs have a club hockey team, which is why I ask.

(04-27-2021 11:51 PM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(04-27-2021 10:14 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(04-27-2021 09:45 PM)nodak651 Wrote:  It doesn't cost 30 million to start a team.

The claim regarded starting a "serious program"

Quote: Maybe if a school is looking for an endowment for the program it would. St. Thomas, for example, doesn't need 30 million to move their team up to D1 and neither did ASU.

St. Thomas would not be starting a program ... they've done substantial investment over time already.

As far as Arizona State, you are saying that they didn't need $30m, and ASU said they did.

How hard is it to take a.club hockey team and make them a Division 1 team, Title IX difficulties aside??? The Georgia Bulldogs have a club hockey team, which is why I ask.

Except for the "except for TitleIX", that's what ccd494's numbers are about. ASU thought it would take them $30m to start one up, but that is probably TitleIX expenses included - they announced the addition of women's lacrosse (which took place in 2018) at around the time that they started hockey. A cheaper women's sport to start up might shave a few dollars off of that.

I don't have a news link to plug here, but I've had multiple industry people tell me to watch for Liberty to start a D-I hockey program if they felt like they had a suitable conference home.

(it really does take 30M to start a D-I program from scratch if you're going to attempt to fully fund it, which LIU is not)

(04-28-2021 03:22 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(04-27-2021 11:51 PM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(04-27-2021 10:14 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(04-27-2021 09:45 PM)nodak651 Wrote:  It doesn't cost 30 million to start a team.

The claim regarded starting a "serious program"

Quote: Maybe if a school is looking for an endowment for the program it would. St. Thomas, for example, doesn't need 30 million to move their team up to D1 and neither did ASU.

St. Thomas would not be starting a program ... they've done substantial investment over time already.

As far as Arizona State, you are saying that they didn't need $30m, and ASU said they did.

How hard is it to take a.club hockey team and make them a Division 1 team, Title IX difficulties aside??? The Georgia Bulldogs have a club hockey team, which is why I ask.

Except for the "except for TitleIX", that's what ccd494's numbers are about. ASU thought it would take them $30m to start one up, but that is probably TitleIX expenses included - they announced the addition of women's lacrosse (which took place in 2018) at around the time that they started hockey. A cheaper women's sport to start up might shave a few dollars off of that.

No. ASU wanted 30 million so that they could have an endowment to fund annual operating costs. That isn't a need at every school, since most schools fund a portion of the athletics programs, which almost all lose money annually.

Page 27 shows Illinois estimated startup costs for hockey, estimated at only about 400k. This excludes the arena.

If a university is willing to forego establishing an endowment when starting a D1 program, they only need a couple million dollars, max, if they already have an arena. Most college sports programs are funded by they universities, annually, and any college could treat hockey the same way and fund a hockey program at a competative level. Mid Major basketball programs lose millions annually, for example.

Most schools who would start D1 hockey programs already have legit ACHA programs, which do not operate much differently than D3 schools like St. Thomas did. Look at UNLV, Liberty, and Lindenwood as examples... they have quality facilities, paid coaching staffs, and they already recruit. ASU was in the same boat, and that is why they were able to play a hybrid D1 schedule immediately after their announcement that they would be moving up to D1.

30 million is a made up, arbitrary, number.

Please describe the "substantial" investment St. Thomas has already made in hockey, because they currently play at a generic HS arena, located about 10-15 min away from their own campus, on the property of a HS that they share the rink with. They do not have anything close to D1 facilities, and if used as a practice facility in Minnesta, a rink that far off campus is unacceptable. Most high schools in MN have a better setup than St. Thomas currently does - that doesnt equate to significant investment.

(04-28-2021 11:23 AM)nodak651 Wrote:  30 million is a made up, arbitrary, number.

Please describe the "substantial" investment St. Thomas has already made in hockey, because they currently play at a generic HS arena, located about 10-15 min away from their own campus, on the property of a HS that they share the rink with. They do not have anything close to D1 facilities, and if used as a practice facility in Minnesta, a rink that far off campus is unacceptable. Most high schools in MN have a better setup than St. Thomas currently does - that doesnt equate to significant investment.

The answer is that St. Thomas is woefully underprepared and underresourced to be a legitimate, fully funded Division I program.

(04-28-2021 11:42 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  

(04-28-2021 11:23 AM)nodak651 Wrote:  30 million is a made up, arbitrary, number.

Please describe the "substantial" investment St. Thomas has already made in hockey, because they currently play at a generic HS arena, located about 10-15 min away from their own campus, on the property of a HS that they share the rink with. They do not have anything close to D1 facilities, and if used as a practice facility in Minnesta, a rink that far off campus is unacceptable. Most high schools in MN have a better setup than St. Thomas currently does - that doesnt equate to significant investment.

The answer is that St. Thomas is woefully underprepared and underresourced to be a legitimate, fully funded Division I program.

The reality is that St. Thomas will do just fine, because unlike basketball, there is tons of parity right now in college hockey and there is plenty of talent to go around.