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illiniowl Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Rice Kids
(05-02-2021 11:57 AM)nightowl24 Wrote:  i've rattled off names of guys that played football and ran track while i was there and after. even right now there are guys across the country that are doing both. if they so choose to. you are just wrong and are doing everything you can to dig your heels into the idea that "it doesn't happen" and it just flat out does. am i saying the whole skill group is running? no i am not. what i'm saying is there are select few kids that are doing both and rice could take advantage of those kids that are multi-sport athletes and want to compete in two sports in college as well.

better yet a lot of the guys that are done playing and are preparing for nfl scouts go to the track coaches for help with their start and running the 40(i know i did and two other guys did also with me)....happens all across the country. no not the big time 1st rounders but guys like our rice guys...yes it does...ROUTINELY. as Hambone continues to say quit making excuses as to why it can't won't or doesn't happen and lets work on showing how it will and does happen.

with regard to rice we haven't recruited any REAL speed in years. we're slow out there, which is why in the secondary we have trouble covering guys. that's why we don't have any big plays from the wr spot....lack of speed. so yes right now most of these guys probably wouldn't run track, hell most of them didn't run track in high school to a high level. when i was there we had a host of football guys that were either state champs, went to state, or had some pretty impressive times on the track. we also won a good amount of games because of that. if you look at other programs their skill guys are doing the same and the ones who don't typically don't pan out in college. i follow it because my sons are in the middle of all of this right now.

furthermore, it isn't even about that more than anything, it is about missed opportunities. simple as that. we are missing opportunities and schools like rice can't afford that. all the kids i've mentioned RIGHT NOW would be competitive at rice, so to not even reach out is flat out dumb. now warren is a distance guy, so he may not want to have any sprinters. ok that is a different animal, but how much success is he having with that at this time? not a whole lot cause its not like he's out here getting the best in the nation. so its safe to say that he may need to add a little diversity to his team in order to compete better. look at north carolina a&t, an hbcu that if we were to go head to head with them at a track meet they would smoke us. not just in sprints but point totals we wouldn't stand a chance against them. all i'm hearing from you is excuses and complacency, i'm not for it. we can do better we just choose to continue to keep ourselves where we are because we won't try anything new. it's easier to make the excuse "it's always been like this" and keep trucking than to flip things around and try something different. even if it fails you are showing that you are putting forth an effort to be better and do better.

rice has to stop making excuses. we don't make excuses in any other area of our school. we see the problem and we attack it and come up with ways to make it better. it may not always net the results we want but we at least put forth an effort. we aren't even putting forth an effort in this area, we are just accepting that we are missing out on kids that we have in-roads with. we just let it keep happening and shrug our shoulders and keep moving.

lastly i will repeat...my son has his school paid for at this point, so this has nothing to do with getting my son to rice. it has everything to do with my school that I played for, represented, and still represent not putting their best foot forward. we are half assing it with regard to recruiting and we are making excuses to why we aren't doing better. sorry that doesn't fly for me. i don't want to hear about recruiting budgets and all that other stuff cause teexting is free, twitter is free, ig is free, facebook is free. it literally cost zero dollars to follow a kid and reach out. if there was a better connection between the former athletes and the school then they wouldn't even have to "keep up" with these kids or "search" for them because they would already KNOW them. as is stated this is what is happening at other schools. they already know the highly competitive children of their former athletes. i wasn't allowed to half ass it while i was there so i expect my school to not half ass it now. flat out.....DO BETTER.

How would NC A&T's cross country program do against us?

If you go heavy on sprints with your 12.6 scholarships, you have to pay the price somewhere. T&F scholarships are intended to cover 3 sports -- XC, indoor, and outdoor. If you personally don't give a flip about whether we have a competitive cross country program, at least have the intellectual honesty to admit that's your view. Either that, or admit that you don't know the first thing about putting together a men's college XC/T&F program.

Your broad point about how Rice could do some things better is fine. However, nearly every area of potential improvement is 100% within the control of the football program (or the athletic department more broadly). The reason more football players do not run track has 0% to do with the track program, which I doubt has ever turned away ANYONE, including pure walk-ons from the general student body, as long as they're not totally out of their depth.

I will be the first person to stand alongside you and say that Rice Football is not helping Rice University, believe me.

But your original, specific complaint about Rice men's T&F not recruiting who you think they should is both baseless (as another poster pointed out, at least one of the kids is being followed on social media by Rice T&F coaches) and betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of the sport and the events involved.
05-02-2021 02:58 PM
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WRCisforgotten79 Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Rice Kids
(05-02-2021 02:58 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  How would NC A&T's cross country program do against us?

If you go heavy on sprints with your 12.6 scholarships, you have to pay the price somewhere. T&F scholarships are intended to cover 3 sports -- XC, indoor, and outdoor. If you personally don't give a flip about whether we have a competitive cross country program, at least have the intellectual honesty to admit that's your view. Either that, or admit that you don't know the first thing about putting together a men's college XC/T&F program.

Your broad point about how Rice could do some things better is fine. However, nearly every area of potential improvement is 100% within the control of the football program (or the athletic department more broadly). The reason more football players do not run track has 0% to do with the track program, which I doubt has ever turned away ANYONE, including pure walk-ons from the general student body, as long as they're not totally out of their depth.

I will be the first person to stand alongside you and say that Rice Football is not helping Rice University, believe me.

But your original, specific complaint about Rice men's T&F not recruiting who you think they should is both baseless (as another poster pointed out, at least one of the kids is being followed on social media by Rice T&F coaches) and betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of the sport and the events involved.

BINGO!
05-02-2021 03:37 PM
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ExcitedOwl18 Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Rice Kids
(05-02-2021 03:37 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  
(05-02-2021 02:58 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  How would NC A&T's cross country program do against us?

If you go heavy on sprints with your 12.6 scholarships, you have to pay the price somewhere. T&F scholarships are intended to cover 3 sports -- XC, indoor, and outdoor. If you personally don't give a flip about whether we have a competitive cross country program, at least have the intellectual honesty to admit that's your view. Either that, or admit that you don't know the first thing about putting together a men's college XC/T&F program.

Your broad point about how Rice could do some things better is fine. However, nearly every area of potential improvement is 100% within the control of the football program (or the athletic department more broadly). The reason more football players do not run track has 0% to do with the track program, which I doubt has ever turned away ANYONE, including pure walk-ons from the general student body, as long as they're not totally out of their depth.

I will be the first person to stand alongside you and say that Rice Football is not helping Rice University, believe me.

But your original, specific complaint about Rice men's T&F not recruiting who you think they should is both baseless (as another poster pointed out, at least one of the kids is being followed on social media by Rice T&F coaches) and betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of the sport and the events involved.

BINGO!

To me, the "how would NC A&T do against us in men's XC?" argument would carry a lot more weight if we had a top 20 men's XC program.. As far as I can tell, we aren't even close to having that...
05-02-2021 03:42 PM
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WRCisforgotten79 Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Rice Kids
(05-02-2021 03:42 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  To me, the "how would NC A&T do against us in men's XC?" argument would carry a lot more weight if we had a top 20 men's XC program.. As far as I can tell, we aren't even close to having that...

I'm going to assume that you need it spelled out at a 3rd grade level.

You have 2 choices as a men's track and field coach at a school with a huge tuition:

1. Concentrate on EITHER track and field OR cross country, loading up one, while leaving walk-ons or developmental kids on the other;

2. Try to be competitive in both (and indoors) at the conference level, while developing individuals who can compete at the national level.

Rice has chosen (2). And, we've typically been among the top 3-4 in conference in both sports.

N.C. A&T has chosen (1), and is #19 in the latest NCAA Outdoor Track and Field rankings. Their cross country is, to be charitable, below average.

Different priorities, different results.
(This post was last modified: 05-02-2021 05:09 PM by WRCisforgotten79.)
05-02-2021 05:08 PM
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ExcitedOwl18 Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Rice Kids
(05-02-2021 05:08 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  
(05-02-2021 03:42 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  To me, the "how would NC A&T do against us in men's XC?" argument would carry a lot more weight if we had a top 20 men's XC program.. As far as I can tell, we aren't even close to having that...

I'm going to assume that you need it spelled out at a 3rd grade level.

You have 2 choices as a men's track and field coach at a school with a huge tuition:

1. Concentrate on EITHER track and field OR cross country, loading up one, while leaving walk-ons or developmental kids on the other;

2. Try to be competitive in both (and indoors) at the conference level, while developing individuals who can compete at the national level.

Rice has chosen (2). And, we've typically been among the top 3-4 in conference in both sports.

N.C. A&T has chosen (1), and is #19 in the latest NCAA Outdoor Track and Field rankings. Their cross country is, to be charitable, below average.

Different priorities, different results.

Got it-Just a matter of preferences I guess. I’d rather be great at one and less-than-good at the other than be OK at both... But I’ll trust the expert on this one.
05-02-2021 08:46 PM
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nightowl24 Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Rice Kids
(05-02-2021 02:58 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  
(05-02-2021 11:57 AM)nightowl24 Wrote:  i've rattled off names of guys that played football and ran track while i was there and after. even right now there are guys across the country that are doing both. if they so choose to. you are just wrong and are doing everything you can to dig your heels into the idea that "it doesn't happen" and it just flat out does. am i saying the whole skill group is running? no i am not. what i'm saying is there are select few kids that are doing both and rice could take advantage of those kids that are multi-sport athletes and want to compete in two sports in college as well.

better yet a lot of the guys that are done playing and are preparing for nfl scouts go to the track coaches for help with their start and running the 40(i know i did and two other guys did also with me)....happens all across the country. no not the big time 1st rounders but guys like our rice guys...yes it does...ROUTINELY. as Hambone continues to say quit making excuses as to why it can't won't or doesn't happen and lets work on showing how it will and does happen.

with regard to rice we haven't recruited any REAL speed in years. we're slow out there, which is why in the secondary we have trouble covering guys. that's why we don't have any big plays from the wr spot....lack of speed. so yes right now most of these guys probably wouldn't run track, hell most of them didn't run track in high school to a high level. when i was there we had a host of football guys that were either state champs, went to state, or had some pretty impressive times on the track. we also won a good amount of games because of that. if you look at other programs their skill guys are doing the same and the ones who don't typically don't pan out in college. i follow it because my sons are in the middle of all of this right now.

furthermore, it isn't even about that more than anything, it is about missed opportunities. simple as that. we are missing opportunities and schools like rice can't afford that. all the kids i've mentioned RIGHT NOW would be competitive at rice, so to not even reach out is flat out dumb. now warren is a distance guy, so he may not want to have any sprinters. ok that is a different animal, but how much success is he having with that at this time? not a whole lot cause its not like he's out here getting the best in the nation. so its safe to say that he may need to add a little diversity to his team in order to compete better. look at north carolina a&t, an hbcu that if we were to go head to head with them at a track meet they would smoke us. not just in sprints but point totals we wouldn't stand a chance against them. all i'm hearing from you is excuses and complacency, i'm not for it. we can do better we just choose to continue to keep ourselves where we are because we won't try anything new. it's easier to make the excuse "it's always been like this" and keep trucking than to flip things around and try something different. even if it fails you are showing that you are putting forth an effort to be better and do better.

rice has to stop making excuses. we don't make excuses in any other area of our school. we see the problem and we attack it and come up with ways to make it better. it may not always net the results we want but we at least put forth an effort. we aren't even putting forth an effort in this area, we are just accepting that we are missing out on kids that we have in-roads with. we just let it keep happening and shrug our shoulders and keep moving.

lastly i will repeat...my son has his school paid for at this point, so this has nothing to do with getting my son to rice. it has everything to do with my school that I played for, represented, and still represent not putting their best foot forward. we are half assing it with regard to recruiting and we are making excuses to why we aren't doing better. sorry that doesn't fly for me. i don't want to hear about recruiting budgets and all that other stuff cause teexting is free, twitter is free, ig is free, facebook is free. it literally cost zero dollars to follow a kid and reach out. if there was a better connection between the former athletes and the school then they wouldn't even have to "keep up" with these kids or "search" for them because they would already KNOW them. as is stated this is what is happening at other schools. they already know the highly competitive children of their former athletes. i wasn't allowed to half ass it while i was there so i expect my school to not half ass it now. flat out.....DO BETTER.

How would NC A&T's cross country program do against us?

If you go heavy on sprints with your 12.6 scholarships, you have to pay the price somewhere. T&F scholarships are intended to cover 3 sports -- XC, indoor, and outdoor. If you personally don't give a flip about whether we have a competitive cross country program, at least have the intellectual honesty to admit that's your view. Either that, or admit that you don't know the first thing about putting together a men's college XC/T&F program.

Your broad point about how Rice could do some things better is fine. However, nearly every area of potential improvement is 100% within the control of the football program (or the athletic department more broadly). The reason more football players do not run track has 0% to do with the track program, which I doubt has ever turned away ANYONE, including pure walk-ons from the general student body, as long as they're not totally out of their depth.

I will be the first person to stand alongside you and say that Rice Football is not helping Rice University, believe me.

But your original, specific complaint about Rice men's T&F not recruiting who you think they should is both baseless (as another poster pointed out, at least one of the kids is being followed on social media by Rice T&F coaches) and betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of the sport and the events involved.

ok so NCAT wouldn't bode well in XC...that's ONE season. indoor track and outdoor is TWO seasons. so last time i checked TWO is greater than ONE. so we are hedging our bets on ONE season. seems real small minded to me. as i stated in an ACTUAL track meet we wouldn't be able to compete with them, and i'm not even talking sprints...i'm saying at the end of the meet we would be WELL behind them in total points.

you say that i don't know about constructing a track team....let's see my wife started not one but TWO track teams from scratch...Dekaney high school and Aldine Davis high school...while at BOTH of those schools was routinely at regional and went to state at dekaney. went to a 3rd and went to state EVERY SINGLE YEAR but ONE while at Cypress Lakes. trust me i know a hell of lot more about putting together a team than you or WRC, trust and believe THAT. my wife was on the short list several times to coach with jim beavan(her jump coach and the coach that recruited her). if you want to know how good my wife is how about you pick up a phone and ask jim beavan about Konnie. trust you won't hear nothing but raving reviews about not only her ability as an athlete but her prowess as a coach.

Furthermore, as i stated VERY CLEARLY...we ARE NOT competing at a high level in XC, indoor OR outdoor so just maybe we should be looking at a different formula. i NEVER said go for all sprints. i CLEARLY said ADD DIVERSITY. as it is right now we are at BEST middle of the pack to below avg in XC and we flat out don't compete in indoor or outdoor. so once again tell me how this is a WINNING strategy?

with regard to the kids being recruited...hhhhmmm lets see the SR tre mccalla started getting followed AFTER regionals...AFTER all of this on THIS board. and i have on GREAT authority that warren was contacted AFTER all of this and he was followed. hhhmmm he won JO's two years ago, why wasn't he being recruited then? his 10.5 was faster than anything at rice. again why are we waiting until now to reach out to him...he was reached out to LAST YEAR by UCLA, why is rice late to the party and he's one of our own? THAT is the issue. they have inroads and could have reached out way earlier so when he does run these times it's "we've noticed you a long time ago and respected your ability first".

lastly as i stated, i know warren is a distance guy. if you doesn't want sprinters, SAY THAT. this convo is then over. we all and everyone else knows that rice doesn't recruit sprinters. that way we can send our top notch kids elsewhere and not even waste energy with this conversation or reaching out to rice to help them be better. what i will finish with is....i know of not ONE top notch track program that is distance ONLY(like rice). not no one ever does that. they have a variety of athletes competing in various events.
(This post was last modified: 05-03-2021 08:33 AM by nightowl24.)
05-02-2021 09:02 PM
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nightowl24 Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Rice Kids
(05-02-2021 05:08 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  
(05-02-2021 03:42 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  To me, the "how would NC A&T do against us in men's XC?" argument would carry a lot more weight if we had a top 20 men's XC program.. As far as I can tell, we aren't even close to having that...

I'm going to assume that you need it spelled out at a 3rd grade level.

You have 2 choices as a men's track and field coach at a school with a huge tuition:

1. Concentrate on EITHER track and field OR cross country, loading up one, while leaving walk-ons or developmental kids on the other;

2. Try to be competitive in both (and indoors) at the conference level, while developing individuals who can compete at the national level.

Rice has chosen (2). And, we've typically been among the top 3-4 in conference in both sports.

N.C. A&T has chosen (1), and is #19 in the latest NCAA Outdoor Track and Field rankings. Their cross country is, to be charitable, below average.

Different priorities, different results.

so we are CHOOSING to be a mediocre conf team....and we DO NOT compete on the national in the least bit. NCAT is competing in TWO seasons not only on the conf level but NATIONALLY.

our tuition has nothing to do with anything because everyone has the same amount of scholarships to award 12.6. se we are all on the same playing field. NCAT is going after kids and getting them. we are sitting back and choosing not to go after kids and we make excuses. if your ok with being 3-4 every year, more power to you, but i have never taught my kids to strive to be mediocre. and last i checked rice wasn't a school that prided itself on being mediocre.
(This post was last modified: 05-03-2021 08:36 AM by nightowl24.)
05-02-2021 09:07 PM
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nightowl24 Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Rice Kids
the crazy thing about all of this is.....THIS IS RICE ATHLETICS. when people try to step in and hold them accountable and have expectations of them. they site all the reasons they can't do any better. instead of actively listening and taking some these great ideas and putting them into play. to at least try to get a different result. no lets just sit and and be a 3rd/4th place team cause that's the best we can do. to never strive for anything better. to luck up and get ONE kid that competes on the national level and use him as "see we have one". we can do so much better but too many people just allow this to happen.

i have no problems calling people out and speaking up when rice is out of line. i also speak up with they do right and get it right. i'm fair and equal. right now we aren't even trying. let that sink in....we....aren't.....even.....trying. that's sad.

more than likely i won't be on here much this week....i'll be getting ready to go to state with my son and that takes priority.

just so the board understands the lunacy of rice track and wrc saying these kids can't compete.....my HIGH SCHOOL freshman has outrun some of our athletes currently running....but you say these kids can't compete.....rrrriiiiiiigggghhhhtttt.
(This post was last modified: 05-02-2021 09:23 PM by nightowl24.)
05-02-2021 09:12 PM
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Post: #69
RE: Rice Kids
(05-02-2021 03:37 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  
(05-02-2021 02:58 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  How would NC A&T's cross country program do against us?

If you go heavy on sprints with your 12.6 scholarships, you have to pay the price somewhere. T&F scholarships are intended to cover 3 sports -- XC, indoor, and outdoor. If you personally don't give a flip about whether we have a competitive cross country program, at least have the intellectual honesty to admit that's your view. Either that, or admit that you don't know the first thing about putting together a men's college XC/T&F program.

Your broad point about how Rice could do some things better is fine. However, nearly every area of potential improvement is 100% within the control of the football program (or the athletic department more broadly). The reason more football players do not run track has 0% to do with the track program, which I doubt has ever turned away ANYONE, including pure walk-ons from the general student body, as long as they're not totally out of their depth.

I will be the first person to stand alongside you and say that Rice Football is not helping Rice University, believe me.

But your original, specific complaint about Rice men's T&F not recruiting who you think they should is both baseless (as another poster pointed out, at least one of the kids is being followed on social media by Rice T&F coaches) and betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of the sport and the events involved.

BINGO!

If THIS is a 'bingo', then you guys don't understand what is being said AT ALL.

You seem to equate 'recruiting' with 'scholarship' or even 'express admit'.... and that's not AT ALL what has been said. Not one person has suggested that these kids be offered a track scholarship. Not one, not once. All that has been said is if there is some way to get them on campus, they could be an asset to the track team. You even challenged that... FIRST by arguing that a 10.3 was wind aided... and THEN by arguing that 'a football coach wouldn't go for it'... NOW you're essentially arguing that its a bad strategy to offer a scholarship to a sprinter... which again, NOBODY has directly suggested.

A better summary of what we have said is go ahead and recruit mostly distance runners (because they can also do XC) and then look to other sports, specifically football to score a few points in sprints (and maybe weights). NO... you likely won't get an Elliston Stinson, but you could grab any of half a dozen kids off of the current football roster who could score more points than you're currently getting in sprints....AND, The University gets an 'additional touch' with an athlete who MAY/likely will qualify for some other aid... OR, may get a football offer, but would still like to run track... or at least, may want to improve his starts/explosiveness and 'compete' more often than just 13 weekends out of the year. It's probably easier to see a freshman sprinter and project them as being able to contribute to the team than it is a freshman DB or WR... so the football coaches should like this as well. If they develop as a football player, we've already been contacting them for perhaps years.

I'd also note this, though I am reticent to even bring it up... EVERY ONE of these athletes we've currently been speaking about has been a minority. That is (or should be) an area of specific focus for the University, whether or not they are athletes. As we expand, the ability to maintain, much less increase our minority enrollment percentages (which are respectable, but hardly 'exceptional' to begin with) will require increased efforts.... because almost EVERY school is trying to do the same thing... increase opportunities for academic scholarship for minorities.

ALL of these things meld together... there is a synchronicity about it... and yet here we have someone who is quite connected and quite active within the Rice track world (WRC) and you seem to want to simply ignore that and essentially tell us that none of those other things matter, because sprinters can't also run cross country??

You have pole vaulters running sprints... You have track guys running XC.... You are being 'creative' with their scholarships in order to get them in... but having a football guy (who runs 50+ 30+ yard sprints PER DAY) run a dozen or so 100 yard sprints for a few weeks a year instead is crazy talk?? No, you didn't use that phrase... but it is certainly implicit in what you're saying.
(This post was last modified: 05-03-2021 11:44 AM by Hambone10.)
05-03-2021 11:38 AM
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #70
RE: Rice Kids
(05-02-2021 09:07 PM)nightowl24 Wrote:  our tuition has nothing to do with anything because everyone has the same amount of scholarships to award 12.6....

The second part of the above is correct, but the first is not. Absent other aid, a kid who is offered no scholarship or a 50% scholarship to run for Rice would have to pay a lot more tuition than one who receives the same offer to run for Texas. Only in the rare case of a 100% scholarship are the offers equal.
05-03-2021 03:13 PM
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Post: #71
RE: Rice Kids
(05-03-2021 03:13 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(05-02-2021 09:07 PM)nightowl24 Wrote:  our tuition has nothing to do with anything because everyone has the same amount of scholarships to award 12.6....

The second part of the above is correct, but the first is not. Absent other aid, a kid who is offered no scholarship or a 50% scholarship to run for Rice would have to pay a lot more tuition than one who receives the same offer to run for Texas. Only in the rare case of a 100% scholarship are the offers equal.

But that's also why the comment in response makes even less sense.

Obviously if you only have 12.6 scholarships to offer, you need to find creative ways to address the problem. For some schools, the low cost of attendance is an advantage. For others, the high availability of need based or academic scholarship is an advantage. We're suggesting that ANOTHER advantage is the ability to recruit kids from off the football team to run sprints if you work together with the football coach... and he works with the track coach.

One caveat... earlier I said it was perhaps easier to project a freshman sprinter... I meant a HIGH SCHOOL sprinter.
05-03-2021 03:38 PM
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Post: #72
RE: Rice Kids
(05-02-2021 09:07 PM)nightowl24 Wrote:  
(05-02-2021 05:08 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  
(05-02-2021 03:42 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  To me, the "how would NC A&T do against us in men's XC?" argument would carry a lot more weight if we had a top 20 men's XC program.. As far as I can tell, we aren't even close to having that...

I'm going to assume that you need it spelled out at a 3rd grade level.

You have 2 choices as a men's track and field coach at a school with a huge tuition:

1. Concentrate on EITHER track and field OR cross country, loading up one, while leaving walk-ons or developmental kids on the other;

2. Try to be competitive in both (and indoors) at the conference level, while developing individuals who can compete at the national level.

Rice has chosen (2). And, we've typically been among the top 3-4 in conference in both sports.

N.C. A&T has chosen (1), and is #19 in the latest NCAA Outdoor Track and Field rankings. Their cross country is, to be charitable, below average.

Different priorities, different results.

so we are CHOOSING to be a mediocre conf team....and we DO NOT compete on the national in the least bit. NCAT is competing in TWO seasons not only on the conf level but NATIONALLY.

our tuition has nothing to do with anything because everyone has the same amount of scholarships to award 12.6. se we are all on the same playing field. NCAT is going after kids and getting them. we are sitting back and choosing not to go after kids and we make excuses. if your ok with being 3-4 every year, more power to you, but i have never taught my kids to strive to be mediocre. and last i checked rice wasn't a school that prided itself on being mediocre.

This illustrates perfectly that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Jon Warren and Leroy Burrell both have 12.6 scholarships to work with, but when Jon offers a kid a quarter scholarship, that kid needs to come up with an additional ~$50K+ per year to go to Rice, whereas it will cost the kid ~$15K to go to UH (if he's from Texas; and still a lot less than Rice even if not from Texas). NC A&T is a public school as well.

And thus it is no coincidence that public schools account for ~85% of the teams that score at indoor and outdoor NCAAs, and an even higher percentage of the points scored. And of the points that private schools DO manage to score, the vast majority are in mid/distance events, with field/multi a distant second.

Hence why nearly every private school follows the same formula in men's XC/T&F that Rice does. It is not irrational and not "excuse making." It is a rational response to the fact that the unequal playing field in men's T&F as between public and private schools is probably the most unequal in all of college athletics.
05-03-2021 04:10 PM
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WRCisforgotten79 Offline
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Post: #73
RE: Rice Kids
With the notable exception of illiniowl, there is an astonishing level of ignorance on this topic. In fact, there is an inverse relationship between the intensity of the post, on the one hand, and knowledge of how things work in the real world, on the other.
05-03-2021 04:40 PM
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WRCisforgotten79 Offline
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Post: #74
RE: Rice Kids
Charlotte has, by far, the best men's track and field team in C-USA.

There are 60 athletes on their roster. That's right - 60 (with 12.6 scholarships).

Rice has 39.

Charlotte's men's track and field clearly is getting substantial support from their administration in getting those individuals into school, and providing "academic" aid. Of course, 47 of those 60 are from North Carolina. Nonetheless, that is a gigantic advantage.


2020-21 Tuition:

Rice $50,310
Charlotte $3,812 (in-state)
(This post was last modified: 05-03-2021 06:36 PM by WRCisforgotten79.)
05-03-2021 06:28 PM
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Swede Owl Offline
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Post: #75
RE: Rice Kids
Nice interviews on Vype with DK Kalu (ND's son) and Bert Emanuel III (Bert's son)

Kalu: https://twitter.com/vypehouston/status/1...10307?s=20
Emanuel: https://twitter.com/vypehouston/status/1...90688?s=20
05-03-2021 10:55 PM
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InterestedX Offline
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Post: #76
RE: Rice Kids
In 2004 the Rice men won the WAC. It was a rare conference title in the sport. Several football players contributed to the effort, including Jeremy Hurd, Clifford Sparks and Bio Bilaye-Benibo. That team could be semi-competitive in CUSA, I think. But it's a team that would be almost impossible to recreate on a regular basis, if only because athletes like Ryan Harlan and Ben Wiggins don't come along too often at Rice.

Rice is an extremely tough place to recruit for track and field, with limited slots and admissions people who really won't help you much.

2004 WAC results -- https://web.archive.org/web/200503100731...0173-2.htm
05-03-2021 11:38 PM
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mrbig Offline
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Post: #77
RE: Rice Kids
(05-03-2021 04:40 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  With the notable exception of illiniowl, there is an astonishing level of ignorance on this topic. In fact, there is an inverse relationship between the intensity of the post, on the one hand, and knowledge of how things work in the real world, on the other.

You realize that your posts are very intense?
05-04-2021 09:38 AM
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Post: #78
RE: Rice Kids
(05-03-2021 04:10 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  This illustrates perfectly that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Jon Warren and Leroy Burrell both have 12.6 scholarships to work with, but when Jon offers a kid a quarter scholarship, that kid needs to come up with an additional ~$50K+ per year to go to Rice, whereas it will cost the kid ~$15K to go to UH (if he's from Texas; and still a lot less than Rice even if not from Texas). NC A&T is a public school as well.

Does Leroy Burrell have an endowment that assures that any family making less than 150k (or whatever the number is) will be able to afford it?

Why does this fact just get ignored when 'your side' of this discussion speaks? Are you suggesting that there are NO sprinters in the nation (faster than our pole vaulters) whose parent's wouldn't qualify for zero tuition at Rice, or at least a level comparable to some state schools???

(05-03-2021 04:40 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  With the notable exception of illiniowl, there is an astonishing level of ignorance on this topic. In fact, there is an inverse relationship between the intensity of the post, on the one hand, and knowledge of how things work in the real world, on the other.

Real constructive post here... If we're so ignorant, then enlighten us. All I've seen you argue is 'those speeds aren't as good as you think' or 'no football coach will let their players run track'.... or 'he only has 12.6 scholarships' which completely ignores everything I've said about the parents being teachers (which gives us an idea of what they earn, plus the sort of student their child likely is) and the Rice Investment. You call me ignorant, and then ignore what I'm saying?? You've quite literally said nothing about those concepts.

I get it... He has 12.6 scholarships and the MATH of XC and Track with distance runners favors that approach. Nobody has denied that, ignored it, nor is uninformed about it. I suspect that with rare exception, EVERY SINGLE ONE of those scholarship athletes is at least in consideration for some other form of aid.

If you're saying that a kid can't be on 'need based' scholarship and run track... you haven't said that. That would enlighten (and shock) me.
If you're saying that the track coach can't lobby for a student he doesn't offer a scholarship for, that is precisely what we are saying could change. Why do you seem to be against even trying?
You DID say that 'nobody' wants to run track AND play football... do you really want to stand by that as an absolute fact?? I only need to identify one person in the nation to dispute that.

You seem so defensive of the track coaches when the WORST they are being accused of is being a PART of Rice missing an opportunity?? If you're saying there are obstacles for the coach to the opportunity, then why don't we work on them??

I can say that the intensity of MY posts has to do with the 'can't' attitude that you (and perhaps illiniowl??) seem to have. You seem resigned to this being the best we can expect from anyone at any level in the process. Its the best the track coach can do, the best the football coach can do, the best the AD can do, the best admissions and financial aid can do??

(05-03-2021 11:38 PM)InterestedX Wrote:  In 2004 the Rice men won the WAC. It was a rare conference title in the sport. Several football players contributed to the effort, including Jeremy Hurd, Clifford Sparks and Bio Bilaye-Benibo.
I guess this shoots down the comment that it was '50 years ago' when football worked with track. I know we did it 30 years ago... this was about 15 and McGuffie was about 5. Cue someone saying 'he was redshirting'... so do lots of other kids... every year. They may not be McGuffie, but they're still as good as/better than what we're putting out there now.

I didn't know the above, but I'm CONFIDENT that YOU did WRC... hence the 'intensity' of my posts. Numbers brought up someone from 50 years ago and you jumped on it like an ant to sugar... when you knew full well (or should have known) that such things weren't limited to 50 years ago.

Quote:Rice is an extremely tough place to recruit for track and field, with limited slots and admissions people who really won't help you much.

So why are we arguing about speeds and times and coaches and not about how to fix the admissions issue?

I gave a pretty good reason for them to get on board... that 'diversity' at Rice, especially within the African-American population has a lot to do with athletics... and we need to find more ways to at least maintain our diversity as we expand. It's not as if we're currently 'passing' on a lot of qualifying African-American students... that 8% or so is 'as much as we want'.... If we are, shame on us... At best, they are passing on US. At the very least, we need to find a way to get 8% of the expanded number to continue to accept... So we either need to find ways to make us more attractive to that segment of the population, or we need to expand the criteria for selection. Since it seems our largest single cohort for admissions amongst that group is athletics, it seems highly constructive for those groups to work together.... ESPECIALLY with children of our own graduates (generally higher propensity for success).
(This post was last modified: 05-04-2021 11:40 AM by Hambone10.)
05-04-2021 11:33 AM
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WRCisforgotten79 Offline
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Post: #79
RE: Rice Kids
If someone with influence can get the administration to change its attitude regarding slots allowed for track and field, I am sure that would be welcomed by everyone.
05-04-2021 11:50 AM
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Post: #80
RE: Rice Kids
(05-04-2021 11:50 AM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  If someone with influence can get the administration to change its attitude regarding slots allowed for track and field, I am sure that would be welcomed by everyone.

Amen.

Just one example from this millennium -- a stud multi-eventer from a prestigious private school in Dallas was very interested in Rice. His academics were solid, test scores very good but not top 1%. Rice admissions rejected him out of hand.

Kid went on to a major public university, was very successful in track and field, and is now a bank VP.

It's not the coaches. You can only work with what they let you have. We can disagree on philosophy of team building, but that's neither here nor there.
05-04-2021 12:56 PM
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