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Extortion... make the A5 pay more money
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4xGrad Offline
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Post: #101
RE: Extortion... make the A5 pay more money
What makes the P5 different than the G5?

Size, history, esteem, alumni base, donors. They are mostly the older bigger schools, the original land grant institutions formed at statehood or large state schools formed shortly after statehood or private institutions formed long ago, established and respected. What sets them apart? Money. and they want to keep it. They don't want to share it. Why would they?

They started a post season system of private bowls that not only pay for themselves but pay the conferences that agreed to participate. The Rose bowl is a private company that makes money and pays the Big 10 and the Pac 12 to participate. Why would they want to give that up.

This is where the money is at. The trick is to increase that pie so that anyone wanting to be part of the Power complex is self supporting and not taking away from what the others already have. Convincing them that you can do that is the only path to the club.

So, how are you going to increase that pie to include you. That is the only question.

The networks are not going to support a product that competes for viewership that their cash cow provides. They don't care if it is fair or not. They don't have to. It is all about the money.
(This post was last modified: 05-01-2021 11:00 PM by 4xGrad.)
05-01-2021 10:58 PM
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crewbear742 Offline
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Post: #102
RE: Extortion... make the A5 pay more money
Extort the P5. This thread should be titled "Plankton's Latest Evil Plan to Steal the Krabby Pattie Formula"

Sheldon J. Plankton: Hear me, P5! When I discover your formula for power conference status, I'll run you out of business! I went to college! [Greg Sankey picks up Plankton] Hey! Let me go!
(This post was last modified: 05-01-2021 11:52 PM by crewbear742.)
05-01-2021 11:51 PM
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jedclampett Offline
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Post: #103
RE: Extortion... make the A5 pay more money
(05-01-2021 10:29 PM)4xGrad Wrote:  If the G5 were to cut and run, form their own league, Everyone in that league will lose viewership...and with that you will loose income.

I would agree that he wrote a couple of posts that were a little "over the top," more heat than light, and even somewhat hard to understand. Maybe he had a couple of beers before he wrote them.

Thus, I don't know exactly what he has in mind. Is he suggesting that the G5/FBS independents should stop playing the P5 teams? If that's what he's arguing for, then I would disagree with him.

On the other hand, if his idea is that the G5/FBS independent teams should organize a cartel or corporate alliance much like the P5 cartel, I would have no objections to that, since the P5 cartel doesn't prevent P5 teams from playing non-P5 teams, and few G5 and FBS independent schools would their teams to stop playing P5 teams.

(05-01-2021 10:29 PM)4xGrad Wrote:  Right now if you have two top end G5 schools battling it out in the top 25, You are going to get a lot of P5 viewers watching because the outcome may have an effect for their P5 team. My teams rankings go up, or my teams rankings go down, or may be I need to see these guys before we play them in OOC or in a bowl game.

True, and let's not forget that the P5 schools also benefit in a wide variety of different ways by playing non-P5 teams, for example, by tapping into those teams' regional viewership, recruiting regions, etc.

(05-01-2021 10:29 PM)4xGrad Wrote:  Moving away from the P5 would be a (bad) move. you may not like the way they are playing but at least you have someone to play with that is really rich and has lots of toys.

Stay and play, just find a way to slowly change the game so you are treated a little more fairly.

If "stay and play" means continuing to schedule about the same number of games vs. P5 teams, then I would agree.

When it comes to "changing the game," however, there are certainly some things that we wouldn't want to change very slowly. For example, few of us would be in favor of waiting 10 or 15 years before the CFP expands. Ideally, we would like to see it expand next January, and I would imagine you'd agree on that point. After all, one of the foundations of our legal system is that justice should not be delayed:

"To delay justice is Injustice." - William Penn

"Justice too long delayed is justice denied." - Martin Luther King

"To no one will we refuse or delay, right or justice." - Magna Carta of 1215

When it comes to wanting to be treated just "a little more fairly," I'm not sure how many of us only want to be treated "a little" more fairly. Most, if not all of us just want to be treated fairly - - no more and no more less. Equal treatment and equal opportunity under the law is one of the fundamental principles in the U.S. Constitution. Just being treated "a little" more fairly would be to accept a "second class" status, and I don't know any American citizen who is willing to be treated like a "second-class" person in any way or at any time.

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The major benefit of setting up a corporate alliance or cartel-like structure, modeled on the P5, would be that it could assist the G5 and FBS indies in negotiating better broadcasting arrangements by leveraging the combined power of 65 non-P5 FBS schools, which would be much greater than the power of 11 or 12 or 14 conference teams.

A further benefit is that establishing a formal alliance will make it possible for them to leverage their combined power to negotiate for a much more acceptable CFP playoff structure, and if they can't get an expanded/improved CFP, then they could set up an alternative to the CFP (which would hopefully include P5 as well as G5 and FBS independent teams).

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(This post was last modified: 05-02-2021 12:19 AM by jedclampett.)
05-01-2021 11:54 PM
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JHS55 Offline
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Post: #104
RE: Extortion... make the A5 pay more money
ok i’ll make this as plain and simple as i can, with no “heat”

The g5 conferences have a lot of room to grow their attendance “ how best to do it ?” iam not sure
our attendance has slowly been getting better, certainly no less
if we stay our current course and our fan base increases at some point it will become a problem for disney and the A5 to ignore then we can demand more stuff and possibly more inclusion in their playoffs
if the g5 attendance increases by say a third more than it is now then that would trigger a landslide of possibility’s like real bowl deals and such

another way to grow popularity is to forum a new FBS league imo.
however this comes with a lot of up front risks with low attendance but if it was successful it would be huge on the upside regarding attendance growth.

I believe the fan base in every g5 conference is untapped and is just left in limbo in our current situation
i do not believe the A5 will include the g5 into their playoffs even if our average fan base increased by a third or even more but will see in 2025

if their were two FBS leagues of course i would hope to see teams playing each other , heck it would be impossible not to.

The biggest and most potent weapon the g5 could carry is a bigger fan base
an intresting question to ask is how big dose the average G5 attendance have to get to become a real bargaining tool to force changes ?
is it a third more than we have now or 50% what the A5 has now, if it was half the a5 has it is at this point that the idea of a new FBS league might be a good thing to do

What’s separates the FCS from the G5...Attendance!, bigger fan base and we have that now anyway
(This post was last modified: 05-02-2021 09:25 AM by JHS55.)
05-02-2021 07:53 AM
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jedclampett Offline
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Post: #105
RE: Extortion... make the A5 pay more money
(05-02-2021 07:53 AM)JHS55 Wrote:  i’ll make this as plain and simple as i can...

The g5 conferences have a lot of room to grow their attendance “ how best to do it ?” i am not sure

That's a good starting point, because the emphasis is on the opportunity to grow attendance.

How to do it?

Conference play puts a lot of constraints on what can be done with regard to scheduling, but one of the keys to attendance is scheduling home games vs:

-teams that home fans want to see - - either because they're major teams, teams with novelty value, or conference or local rivals.

-teams that the home team is likely to win or at least have a chance to win.

-the home record should ideally be at least 3-3, even if its necessary to schedule a couple of cupcakes, better that than being blown out at home repeatedly, because those kinds of losses can damage interest for years.

-OOC scheduling is the best opportunity to generate interest and excitement. A boring OOC schedule can be devastating to a team's home schedule. If you have to schedule cupcakes, do not schedule terrible opponents, because those kinds of games are unwatchable.

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What else can be done? Invest in game day atmosphere, such as enhancements to tailgating opportunities and every kind of attendance-boosting trick (t-shirt giveaways, halftime or pre-/post-game concerts, etc.

Make the game a day-long party. Plan events after the game. Turn some game day weekends into weekend-long parties.

Be creative. Do some unexpected, even slightly wacky things to create a sense of mirth. After all, we're talking about generating interest from 19 and 20-year olds.

Last, but not least, make your teams fun to watch! Have a passing game. Recruit exciting players. Run trick plays. Anything to make people interested. Hire announcers who are fun to listen to.

Invite former players and alumni celebrities back to campus frequently and feature them in various ways. Do pep rallies, bonfires, the whole 9 yards. Invent new & fun traditions. Turn football season into a string of party weekends that everyone will look forward to.

Try doing some things to shake things up. Have special events like Sadie Hawkins day type things where the women get to ask the men out for dates.

Do masquerade events. Have dance parties. Get a little wild on campus.

Football season isn't just sports. It's supposed to be about excitement on campus, overall. Football is just part of it. The worse your football team is, the more important all the other stuff becomes.

(05-02-2021 07:53 AM)JHS55 Wrote:  our attendance has slowly been getting better, certainly no less
if we stay our current course and our fan base increases at some point it will become a problem for disney and the A5 to ignore then we can demand more stuff and possibly more inclusion in their playoffs

I don't believe that "staying the course" is something we need to think about. The course will have to be stayed, as well as possible, but we shouldn't count on that getting us anywhere very quickly.

The point is there has to be a lot more than "stay the course," because that sounds as boring as hell, and it will take a million years to fill a stadium that way.

As far as disney and the P5 are concerned, I think that we need to just forget about them. This isn't about trying to get anything from them. It's about pulling ourselves up by our own bootstraps.

If we try to focus on getting something from them, we're going to be disappointed, because we know that they're a bunch of selfish b@$t@rd$ who will do whatever they can to screw us over.

It's a mental thing. Don't treat them special or like they're better or like we want anything from them. If they want to play us, fine, but if they don't that's fine too. We can do this without them.

Remember that even high school football can be fun. I had as much fun watching high school football as I did watching college football. It's not really about how great the players or teams are. It's about the fun of the whole event, and what's going on in the crowd.

Get over the inferiority complex, and recognize how cool G5 football is. Make it different. Don't try to imitate the P5s.

(05-02-2021 07:53 AM)JHS55 Wrote:  if the g5 attendance increases by say a third more than it is now then that would trigger a landslide of possibility’s like real bowl deals and such

Right, and the question is how to do it. It seems to me that we can get there by following the example of the AFL of the 1960s & early 1970s, or of the ABA in the mid-to-late 1970s.

(05-02-2021 07:53 AM)JHS55 Wrote:  another way to grow popularity is to forum a new FBS league imo.
however this comes with a lot of up front risks with low attendance but if it was successful it would be huge on the upside regarding attendance growth.

A couple of us were talking about what you and I and others really mean when we talk about those kinds of things, and the truth is that creating a new "league" isn't really what anybody really means.

It's true that I have written more than once that the G5 is (or could be) the American Football League of the 2020s, and I do think that there is a lot of truth in that statement, but only in the broadest of terms.

It's not that the G5 (and FBS indies - - we mustn't forget them!) is going to become any kind of a "league."

Unlike professional sports (e.g., MLB's "National" and "American" leagues with their various divisions; or the NFL's NFC and AFC), The only true "leagues" that exist in college sports are our conferences.

So if someone were to try to pull all the G5 conferences together, we wouldn't be setting up any kind of a "league." We would still be playing as separate conferences with limited OOC schedules.

No - - I think that what we've really been talking about is setting up a corporate alliance much like the P5, which itself is a corporate alliance (or "cartel," as some have described it).

What we want is for the 65 G5 (and FBS independent) schools to achieve precisely the kind of autonomy and power that the P5 achieved, and the best way to do that is to set up a parallel organization that does exactly the same kinds of things that the P5 has done to get their autonomy and power.

Mind you, that doesn't mean that we would have to be selfish jerks in the way we do it. To the contrary, we would want to do it in a friendlier and more charming way than the P5 did. Otherwise, we would just piss everybody off and turn them against us. But we would need to learn from the P5's example what the basics are:

1) The conferences in the G5/FBS indies corporate alliance or "cartel" would need to band together in a sustained campaign to achieve autonomous status.

--First, the G5 conferences, etc., need to do what AAC Commissioner has been working on for the American, which is to step by step build up our resumes to prove that we've done all the specific things that the P5 conferences had to do to prove that they met the criteria for autonomous status.

----However, we can help each other out along the way, and coordinate our efforts, rather than everybody trying to do it on their own.

--Once we get close enough to meeting the obvious prerequisites (this could take as long as 3-5 years), the time will come when we're ready to start negotiating for autonomous status with the NCAA, and the key to success will be negotiating as a united body of 65 FBS schools.

----The collective (or the "cartel") would be able to exert the needed leverage. The leverage of 64/65 schools is how the P5 got their autonomous status. Any less than that probably won't get the G5/FBS indies where they want to go.

----As an AAC fan, would I like to see the American negotiate successfully for autonomous status on its own within a much shorter period? Sure I would. However, I'm not at all convinced that they are going to be able to do so successfully on their own, with the limited amount of leverage that they can employ.


2) That same form of leverage is the only way that the non-P5 conferences are ever going to be able to generate anywhere near as much broadcasting revenue as the power conferences are generating.

--Going forward, the G5 conferences will work out their own deals with broadcasters, but the G5's corporate alliance could back up the conferences in their negotiations, much like a labor union is able to negotiate much better employment contracts than individual workers can do on their own.

--In addition to broadcasting agreements, a G5 corporate alliance could also do things such as setting up a post-season football tournament of its own that would feature a sufficient number of G5/FBS independent teams and compete for January viewership with the CFP.


(05-02-2021 07:53 AM)JHS55 Wrote:  I believe the fan base in every g5 conference is untapped and is just left in limbo in our current situation

I agree that it's untapped. Not so sure about limbo, however. It's more like the fans sense that something interesting might be evolving, and they're just not sure what it is yet, or when it might happen.

The good thing is that the G5/FBS independents have been getting better and becoming more competitive, due to the "staying the course" that has been going on. So that has made the next step forward a real possibility.

You may be way too young to recall how the American Football League became so competitive with the NFL, or with how the ABA created such excitement when compared with the predictable, boring NBA stye of play, but the key to generating excitement in both cases was to play a much more free-wheeling kind of game.

In the ABA, the key was speeding up the tempo and playing above the rim with a high level of virtuosity. They also introduced an element of hollywood and show business into the game.

In the AFL, back in the 1960s, it was a slightly different but similar phenomenon. AFL football was wild and woolly, very much like the wild west. It brought out a different kind of fan, including a lot of lower-middle income fans and regular folks, bikers, rednecks, and rebels but also high-flying types and non-conformists of all sorts.

In addition, the AFL generated a lot of excitement among the youngest football fans who were bored with the average style of play of the NFL.

I know - - I was one of them. I was a huge football fan starting in the mid 1960s, and it was the AFL that excited me the most, by far!

The AFL introduced the shotgun offense and a host of innovations such as no-huddle offenses, 2 point conversions, and soccer-style field goal kickers. Halftime shows ran a much wider gamut, with everything from rodeo events to risque shows with scantily-clad dancers, clowns, just anything you could think of.

AFL football engendered a party atmosphere and a celebration of freedom. Perhaps not coincidentally, it started up during the late "beat/bohemian" era and continued through the peak years of the 1960s "hippie" era when the spirit of the times was all about liberation, about celebrating individuality and freedom.

I believe that this is the kind of thing that the ABA and AFL had in common. It wasn't just the way they played the games, but their much more open and innovative style of play tapped into a fun-loving and free-wheeling spirit that a lot of American sports found thrilling. It captured their imaginations.

Tell you the truth, I enjoy G5 football more than I enjoy P5 football, and I believe that I like it more because it already is a little wilder, a little less uptight, a little more free-wheeling, more fun and less predictable. That's why it reminded me of the old AFL.

As I see it, the G5 needs to build on that. IT DOES NOT NEED TO IMITATE THE STYLE OF PLAY IN P5 FOOTBALL. IT NEEDS TO DO THE EXACT OPPOSITE! IF IT TRIES TO BEAT THE P5 AT ITS OWN GAME, IT WILL FAIL. IF IT CELEBRATES WHAT MAKES IT DIFFERENT, AND OPENS THINGS UP MORE AND MORE, IT WILL BE MORE LIKELY TO SUCCEED.

Part of its success will come from appealing to younger viewers and to recruits coming up from high school who want to work hard but also have fun playing college football.

(05-02-2021 07:53 AM)JHS55 Wrote:  i do not believe the A5 will include the g5 into their playoffs even if our average fan base increased by a third or even more but will see in 2025

It's hard to know what on earth they're going to do, and I'm not sure that I even care, to tell the truth. They remind me of the legendary King Midas. Everything they touch turns to gold, but Midas learned to his horror that turning everything into gold has a very dark side because you can't live on gold alone!

Seems to me that we should just forget about them and do our own thing, not try to be like them or get their approval or anything.

In human relationships, it never seems to work out very well when people try to win other peoples' approval or tell them how great they are and fall all over themselves trying to please them in various ways. All they usually end up is earning the contempt of the people they're trying to impress, because they seem so shallow or insecure or empty inside.

Similarly, if the G5 and FBS independents try to prove how much they're like the P5, and try to earn the P5's respect, it's likely to completely backfire.

The way to get where they want to go is to just ignore what the P5 are doing, and do things exactly the way they want to do them. Don't try to imitate them in any way whatsoever - - do the exact opposite. Find ways to play the game that no one else has every played the game. Loosen everything up. Make football fun to play and fun to watch.

That's what it would take to get people to switch the channel and check out what the G5 and FBS indie teams are doing on the football field.


(05-02-2021 07:53 AM)JHS55 Wrote:  if their were two FBS leagues of course i would hope to see teams playing each other , heck it would be impossible not to.

Certainly. No problem with that. After all it works for the P5 - - why wouldn't it work for the rest of us, as long as we don't try to beat them at their own game or emphasize beating them at the expense of playing the game we want to play it.

Ultimately, fans care more about having fun when they go out to watch a game. Winning is great, but if the team plays an entertaining style of game, the fans get their entertainment value and can have a good time even if the team loses.

We've always got to remember that football and basketball are games that are played. Yes, they're work too, but if the athletes aren't jazzed, then it can become all work and no play, and that is not fun to watch.

(05-02-2021 07:53 AM)JHS55 Wrote:  The biggest and most potent weapon the g5 could carry is a bigger fan base

Yep, and that's why all these things about loosening things up and emphasizing fun and innovation and excitement are so vital.

(05-02-2021 07:53 AM)JHS55 Wrote:  an intresting question to ask is how big dose the average G5 attendance have to get to become a real bargaining tool to force changes ?
is it a third more than we have now or 50% what the A5 has now, if it was half the a5 has it is at this point that the idea of a new FBS league might be a good thing to do

I've got to tell you that worrying about all those things is the opposite of what we should be thinking about.

"If you build it, they will come." That doesn't mean just building a stadium - - it could also mean "building" up an identity and a style of play that is more dynamic and exciting.

The best way to convey the excitement of the original AFL teams is to check out a couple of the classic "NFL Films" videos narrated by the great John Facenda, such as the two posted below:

When you watch them, notice how wide open and wild the style of play is, and also how the people in the stands respond to it. The wild, open style of play seemed to encourage the fans to let loose, men and women alike. It may be the reactions of the women (and the kids) that tells the tale most compellingly of all.








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(This post was last modified: 05-03-2021 07:21 AM by jedclampett.)
05-03-2021 04:13 AM
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JHS55 Offline
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Post: #106
RE: Extortion... make the A5 pay more money
yes i agree with your responses mostly
i think nothing will change much for the g5 untill average attendance gets higher
iam only a bit younger than you, i started watching the NFL in early seventies
05-03-2021 08:43 AM
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jedclampett Offline
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Post: #107
RE: Extortion... make the A5 pay more money
(05-03-2021 08:43 AM)JHS55 Wrote:  yes i agree with your responses mostly
i think nothing will change much for the g5 untill average attendance gets higher

You may be right, but I would respond by saying that it seems like things already have improved quite a bit for the AAC and other G5 conferences even though attendance has only improved by perhaps 5,000/game for most conference and G5 schools.

The improvement that I'm referring to is twofold: (1) improvements in rankings - - specifically, there has been a steep increase in the number of G5/FBS independents that have ended the past few seasons in the AP, CP, and CFP top 25; and (2) significant increases in broadcasting revenue, particularly for the AAC and MWC, but also for the other G5s, albeit to a lesser extent, since they all seem to have better broadcasting deals now than they had when they joined the conference.

As a fan/alumnus of Temple University, I can definitely say that things have improved considerably after joining the AAC, and not in just one or two respects -- but across the board. They remain improved even despite the FB and BB programs recent struggles and are likely to continue do so. Yet these improvements have taken place despite only a modest improvement in attendance.

At its peak, Temple's announced FB attendance only improved by about 10,000 or 15,000 from an average baseline of around 20,000, yet the overall improvement in revenue and viewership has been much more substantial than the attendance numbers would suggest.

I can't say this with any confidence, but the G5s have in some ways become more competitive with the P5s, despite the huge revenue gap, and this suggests at least the possibility that attendance may not be the sine qua non that it used to be, and that TV viewership increasingly is.

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05-03-2021 11:12 AM
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