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AAC and Academics
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SMUstang Offline
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Post: #61
RE: AAC and Academics
(04-21-2021 11:00 AM)SMUstang Wrote:  
(04-21-2021 10:45 AM)Bogg Wrote:  
(04-21-2021 10:28 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  
(04-20-2021 11:34 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Thats a popular belief, but I dont see how it could be true. If you look at which members actually still had voting privileges at the time (just UConn, USF, Cinci, and the C7), the only way for Tulane to get an invite in late fall of 2012 was to capture no less than 5 of the 7 Catholic school votes. These are schools that were perfectly comfortable voting "no" at the same meeting when it came to giving ECU a full membership. So, they werent timid little souls. There may have been a C7 school that was unhappy with Tulane---but most of them seemed ok with it as the vast majority of the C7 clearly voted to give them an invite.

I think the issue was that Tulane had never (and arguably, has never) invested in basketball whereas the other entries (Memphis, Houston, SMU) had some basketball commitment and success.

If we're being honest, the C7 could have kept Tulane a football affiliate if they were still invested in the hybrid model. Had they delivered an ultimatum along the lines of "you can have us or Tulane basketball, but not both" to the football side, Tulane's playing basketball in the SoCon right now. The real issue is likely that they could all see where things were headed in terms of geography/travel, opponents, and tv money and contraction/realignment with the Fox Sports contract was much more appealing.

I respectfully disagree with you, Tulane is playing basketball in the AAC along with all of their other sports.
(This post was last modified: 04-21-2021 11:15 AM by SMUstang.)
04-21-2021 11:02 AM
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Bobcat2013 Offline
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Post: #62
RE: AAC and Academics
(04-21-2021 11:02 AM)SMUstang Wrote:  
(04-21-2021 11:00 AM)SMUstang Wrote:  
(04-21-2021 10:45 AM)Bogg Wrote:  
(04-21-2021 10:28 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  
(04-20-2021 11:34 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Thats a popular belief, but I dont see how it could be true. If you look at which members actually still had voting privileges at the time (just UConn, USF, Cinci, and the C7), the only way for Tulane to get an invite in late fall of 2012 was to capture no less than 5 of the 7 Catholic school votes. These are schools that were perfectly comfortable voting "no" at the same meeting when it came to giving ECU a full membership. So, they werent timid little souls. There may have been a C7 school that was unhappy with Tulane---but most of them seemed ok with it as the vast majority of the C7 clearly voted to give them an invite.

I think the issue was that Tulane had never (and arguably, has never) invested in basketball whereas the other entries (Memphis, Houston, SMU) had some basketball commitment and success.

If we're being honest, the C7 could have kept Tulane a football affiliate if they were still invested in the hybrid model. Had they delivered an ultimatum along the lines of "you can have us or Tulane basketball, but not both" to the football side, Tulane's playing basketball in the SoCon right now. The real issue is likely that they could all see where things were headed in terms of geography/travel, opponents, and tv money and contraction/realignment with the Fox Sports contract was much more appealing.

I respectfully disagree with you, Tulane is playing basketball in the AAC along with all of their other sports.

The way you replied makes it look like you replied to yourself lol. Made me chuckle at first
04-21-2021 11:30 AM
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clpp01 Offline
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Post: #63
RE: AAC and Academics
(04-20-2021 05:35 PM)Rob3338 Wrote:  
(04-19-2021 12:34 PM)SMUstang Wrote:  The AAC is eyeing Boise State or Army instead of Rice or Buffalo. What does that tell you about their priorities? And that is more a reflection on this country’s priorities than the conference. What school’s diploma is the best in the long run?


It has NOTHING to do with academic or research priorities. The AAC like all other sports conferences (except the Ivy League) is ONLY about sports and nothing else. Further it should be only about sports.
Academics might not matter much to a merc league like the AAC which is simply a collection of schools trying to keep their head above water in athletics but to the BigTen, the Pac12 and the ACC for the most part it still matters greatly. There is a reason why the Texas had a "Tech" problem with the Big10 or the Pac-12 isn't willing to even discuss BYU or were only giving tag along invites to OU, Oklahoma State & Texas Tech back during the Pac-16 failed venture and it has nothing to do with the money not being there for it to work.
04-21-2021 11:56 AM
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Bogg Offline
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Post: #64
RE: AAC and Academics
(04-21-2021 11:02 AM)SMUstang Wrote:  
(04-21-2021 11:00 AM)SMUstang Wrote:  
(04-21-2021 10:45 AM)Bogg Wrote:  
(04-21-2021 10:28 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  
(04-20-2021 11:34 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Thats a popular belief, but I dont see how it could be true. If you look at which members actually still had voting privileges at the time (just UConn, USF, Cinci, and the C7), the only way for Tulane to get an invite in late fall of 2012 was to capture no less than 5 of the 7 Catholic school votes. These are schools that were perfectly comfortable voting "no" at the same meeting when it came to giving ECU a full membership. So, they werent timid little souls. There may have been a C7 school that was unhappy with Tulane---but most of them seemed ok with it as the vast majority of the C7 clearly voted to give them an invite.

I think the issue was that Tulane had never (and arguably, has never) invested in basketball whereas the other entries (Memphis, Houston, SMU) had some basketball commitment and success.

If we're being honest, the C7 could have kept Tulane a football affiliate if they were still invested in the hybrid model. Had they delivered an ultimatum along the lines of "you can have us or Tulane basketball, but not both" to the football side, Tulane's playing basketball in the SoCon right now. The real issue is likely that they could all see where things were headed in terms of geography/travel, opponents, and tv money and contraction/realignment with the Fox Sports contract was much more appealing.

I respectfully disagree with you, Tulane is playing basketball in the AAC along with all of their other sports.

Nah. As a practical matter, the football side wouldn't have had the votes to force the issue if the C7 was committed to both staying and not sharing a league with Tulane, and Tulane wouldn't have turned down a football affiliate invite at the time. That being said, UConn and Cincy and Temple and Memphis aren't going to choose Tulane basketball over a block of schools including Nova, Georgetown, Marquette, and St John's either.
04-21-2021 12:00 PM
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SMUstang Offline
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Post: #65
RE: AAC and Academics
(04-21-2021 12:00 PM)Bogg Wrote:  
(04-21-2021 11:02 AM)SMUstang Wrote:  
(04-21-2021 10:45 AM)Bogg Wrote:  
(04-21-2021 10:28 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  I think the issue was that Tulane had never (and arguably, has never) invested in basketball whereas the other entries (Memphis, Houston, SMU) had some basketball commitment and success.

If we're being honest, the C7 could have kept Tulane a football affiliate if they were still invested in the hybrid model. Had they delivered an ultimatum along the lines of "you can have us or Tulane basketball, but not both" to the football side, Tulane's playing basketball in the SoCon right now. The real issue is likely that they could all see where things were headed in terms of geography/travel, opponents, and tv money and contraction/realignment with the Fox Sports contract was much more appealing.

I respectfully disagree with you, Tulane is playing basketball in the AAC along with all of their other sports.

Nah. As a practical matter, the football side wouldn't have had the votes to force the issue if the C7 was committed to both staying and not sharing a league with Tulane, and Tulane wouldn't have turned down a football affiliate invite at the time. That being said, UConn and Cincy and Temple and Memphis aren't going to choose Tulane basketball over a block of schools including Nova, Georgetown, Marquette, and St John's either.
[/quote]

What does that have to do with the conference that Tulane is playing basketball in right now?
(This post was last modified: 04-21-2021 12:36 PM by SMUstang.)
04-21-2021 12:29 PM
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IWokeUpLikeThis Offline
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Post: #66
RE: AAC and Academics
(04-20-2021 06:02 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(04-20-2021 05:35 PM)Rob3338 Wrote:  
(04-19-2021 12:34 PM)SMUstang Wrote:  The AAC is eyeing Boise State or Army instead of Rice or Buffalo. What does that tell you about their priorities? And that is more a reflection on this country’s priorities than the conference. What school’s diploma is the best in the long run?


It has NOTHING to do with academic or research priorities. The AAC like all other sports conferences (except the Ivy League) is ONLY about sports and nothing else. Further it should be only about sports.

As long as university presidents are doing the voting---you can bet academics will count. If athletics was all that mattered, the AAC presidents would never have selected Tulane in 2011. Its not like Tulane dominated the NOLA TV market or was a football power at the time---but school presidents have always liked the idea of associating their schools with schools with strong academic reputations. I think they see these conference associations with schools boasting strong academic reputations as reflecting well on their own university's academic perception. Its just how these presidents see the world.

Yes, university presidents always discuss academics. Always.
04-21-2021 12:58 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #67
RE: AAC and Academics
(04-21-2021 11:56 AM)clpp01 Wrote:  
(04-20-2021 05:35 PM)Rob3338 Wrote:  
(04-19-2021 12:34 PM)SMUstang Wrote:  The AAC is eyeing Boise State or Army instead of Rice or Buffalo. What does that tell you about their priorities? And that is more a reflection on this country’s priorities than the conference. What school’s diploma is the best in the long run?


It has NOTHING to do with academic or research priorities. The AAC like all other sports conferences (except the Ivy League) is ONLY about sports and nothing else. Further it should be only about sports.
Academics might not matter much to a merc league like the AAC which is simply a collection of schools trying to keep their head above water in athletics but to the BigTen, the Pac12 and the ACC for the most part it still matters greatly. There is a reason why the Texas had a "Tech" problem with the Big10 or the Pac-12 isn't willing to even discuss BYU or were only giving tag along invites to OU, Oklahoma State & Texas Tech back during the Pac-16 failed venture and it has nothing to do with the money not being there for it to work.

It still matters. The AAC membership simply isnt as academically as exclusive as the Pac-12 or Big10---but a quick look at the AAC membership finds it to be much more academically exclusive overall than CUSA or the Sunbelt. It's all relative---but sure---the AAC would probably take a school with an incredibly valuable sports brand and on-the-field performance that draws lots of viewers--even if their academics were slightly below the level desired. lol---honestly---other than Boise---is there really anyone out there with the kind of sports brand value that would obviously qualify them for an academic "waiver".....nobody really comes to mind--so it doesnt really matter other than if Boise is interested in joining.
(This post was last modified: 04-21-2021 01:50 PM by Attackcoog.)
04-21-2021 01:47 PM
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Bogg Offline
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Post: #68
RE: AAC and Academics
(04-21-2021 12:29 PM)SMUstang Wrote:  What does that have to do with the conference that Tulane is playing basketball in right now?

In an alternate timeline where the C7 were committed to remaining with the football-playing schools, and had stonewalled Tulane as a full member (this segue started with the idea the C7 left because of Tulane), Tulane would have still accepted membership as a football affiliate. I'm assuming CUSA wouldn't have let them stay non-football and that Tulane's institutional profile jumps them up above the Southland/ASUN tier and they get a SoCon invite.
(This post was last modified: 04-21-2021 01:49 PM by Bogg.)
04-21-2021 01:48 PM
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SMUstang Offline
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Post: #69
RE: AAC and Academics
(04-21-2021 01:48 PM)Bogg Wrote:  
(04-21-2021 12:29 PM)SMUstang Wrote:  What does that have to do with the conference that Tulane is playing basketball in right now?

In an alternate timeline where the C7 were committed to remaining with the football-playing schools, and had stonewalled Tulane as a full member (this segue started with the idea the C7 left because of Tulane), Tulane would have still accepted membership as a football affiliate. I'm assuming CUSA wouldn't have let them stay non-football and that Tulane's institutional profile jumps them up above the Southland/ASUN tier and they get a SoCon invite.

Tulane is in the American Athletic Conference and is playing all of their sports including basketball in the AAC.
04-21-2021 01:52 PM
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Bogg Offline
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Post: #70
RE: AAC and Academics
(04-21-2021 01:52 PM)SMUstang Wrote:  
(04-21-2021 01:48 PM)Bogg Wrote:  
(04-21-2021 12:29 PM)SMUstang Wrote:  What does that have to do with the conference that Tulane is playing basketball in right now?

In an alternate timeline where the C7 were committed to remaining with the football-playing schools, and had stonewalled Tulane as a full member (this segue started with the idea the C7 left because of Tulane), Tulane would have still accepted membership as a football affiliate. I'm assuming CUSA wouldn't have let them stay non-football and that Tulane's institutional profile jumps them up above the Southland/ASUN tier and they get a SoCon invite.

Tulane is in the American Athletic Conference and is playing all of their sports including basketball in the AAC.

Sure, but what's being discussed is what might have been.
04-21-2021 02:10 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #71
RE: AAC and Academics
The American members offers, collectively, better academics than some folks realize. For example, seven of the league's 12 members offer schools of medicine. Even Memphis, which is not very academically prestigious, offers a school of law and a college of engineering.

And I feel the Big East schools, collectively, offer some quality academics, too. Having undertaken a bit of online coursework via both DePaul and Georgetown and having read some about the academics of the BE members, ... very respectable academic league.

No non-P5 conference offers the academics of the Ivy League (obviously). But there are some quality DI leagues in terms of academics. The Patriot League is very solid, as are the Mountain West, A10, West Coast and Northeast Conference. There are likely others.
04-21-2021 04:29 PM
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ken d Online
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Post: #72
RE: AAC and Academics
(04-21-2021 12:29 PM)SMUstang Wrote:  
(04-21-2021 12:00 PM)Bogg Wrote:  
(04-21-2021 11:02 AM)SMUstang Wrote:  
(04-21-2021 10:45 AM)Bogg Wrote:  
(04-21-2021 10:28 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  I think the issue was that Tulane had never (and arguably, has never) invested in basketball whereas the other entries (Memphis, Houston, SMU) had some basketball commitment and success.

If we're being honest, the C7 could have kept Tulane a football affiliate if they were still invested in the hybrid model. Had they delivered an ultimatum along the lines of "you can have us or Tulane basketball, but not both" to the football side, Tulane's playing basketball in the SoCon right now. The real issue is likely that they could all see where things were headed in terms of geography/travel, opponents, and tv money and contraction/realignment with the Fox Sports contract was much more appealing.

I respectfully disagree with you, Tulane is playing basketball in the AAC along with all of their other sports.

Nah. As a practical matter, the football side wouldn't have had the votes to force the issue if the C7 was committed to both staying and not sharing a league with Tulane, and Tulane wouldn't have turned down a football affiliate invite at the time. That being said, UConn and Cincy and Temple and Memphis aren't going to choose Tulane basketball over a block of schools including Nova, Georgetown, Marquette, and St John's either.

What does that have to do with the conference that Tulane is playing basketball in right now?
[/quote]

Read what he said again, only this time instead of reading "Tulane is playing in the SoCon" read it as "Tulane would be playing in the SoCon". To me, that was clearly his intent.
04-21-2021 05:26 PM
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schmolik Offline
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Post: #73
RE: AAC and Academics
(04-21-2021 04:29 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  No non-P5 conference offers the academics of the Ivy League (obviously). But there are some quality DI leagues in terms of academics. The Patriot League is very solid, as are the Mountain West, A10, West Coast and Northeast Conference. There are likely others.

So in other words the East Coast and West Coast?
04-21-2021 05:50 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #74
RE: AAC and Academics
(04-21-2021 05:50 PM)schmolik Wrote:  
(04-21-2021 04:29 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  No non-P5 conference offers the academics of the Ivy League (obviously). But there are some quality DI leagues in terms of academics. The Patriot League is very solid, as are the Mountain West, A10, West Coast and Northeast Conference. There are likely others.

So in other words the East Coast and West Coast?

The Mountain West, Big East, AAC and A10 have various members not located on either coast. Some good schools, too.
04-21-2021 05:58 PM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #75
RE: AAC and Academics
(04-21-2021 05:26 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(04-21-2021 12:29 PM)SMUstang Wrote:  What does that have to do with the conference that Tulane is playing basketball in right now?

Read what he said again, only this time instead of reading "Tulane is playing in the SoCon" read it as "Tulane would be playing in the SoCon". To me, that was clearly his intent.

Precisely ... "Had A done this, the A is playing in the SoCon" would be read IF that had happened THEN they would have been playing in the SoCon.
04-22-2021 09:12 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #76
RE: AAC and Academics
(04-21-2021 04:29 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  The American members offers, collectively, better academics than some folks realize. For example, seven of the league's 12 members offer schools of medicine. Even Memphis, which is not very academically prestigious, offers a school of law and a college of engineering.

No question. Heck, five AAC schools are in the top 100 or so of the US News rankings.

But the thing is, there are also several between 100 and 200, and some in the 200s. So given that very broad spread, I am hard-pressed to think of schools that wouldn't qualify for the AAC on academic grounds. I guess maybe the limit is 300 or so? But no, because Boise falls outside of that range. Yes, I know Boise is an "exceptional" brand, but nevertheless, that's reaching pretty low.

The AAC just seems all over the map academically, with no rhyme or reason. That leads me to believe that academics just is not likely to be a big deal in any future expansion.

If I had to put a bracket around AAC academics, in terms of a drop-dead standard, I would say "US News top 300, with exceptions for exceptional brands". That's not much of a standard, IMO, though it would exclude some schools in other G5.
(This post was last modified: 04-22-2021 09:36 AM by quo vadis.)
04-22-2021 09:35 AM
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SMUstang Offline
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Post: #77
RE: AAC and Academics
(04-22-2021 09:35 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-21-2021 04:29 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  The American members offers, collectively, better academics than some folks realize. For example, seven of the league's 12 members offer schools of medicine. Even Memphis, which is not very academically prestigious, offers a school of law and a college of engineering.

No question. Heck, five AAC schools are in the top 100 or so of the US News rankings.

But the thing is, there are also several between 100 and 200, and some in the 200s. So given that very broad spread, I am hard-pressed to think of schools that wouldn't qualify for the AAC on academic grounds. I guess maybe the limit is 300 or so? But no, because Boise falls outside of that range. Yes, I know Boise is an "exceptional" brand, but nevertheless, that's reaching pretty low.

The AAC just seems all over the map academically, with no rhyme or reason. That leads me to believe that academics just is not likely to be a big deal in any future expansion.

If I had to put a bracket around AAC academics, in terms of a drop-dead standard, I would say "US News top 300, with exceptions for exceptional brands". That's not much of a standard, IMO, though it would exclude some schools in other G5.

This may be why the AAC presidents haven't already approved Boise State.
04-22-2021 10:05 AM
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Post: #78
RE: AAC and Academics
(04-22-2021 10:05 AM)SMUstang Wrote:  
(04-22-2021 09:35 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-21-2021 04:29 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  The American members offers, collectively, better academics than some folks realize. For example, seven of the league's 12 members offer schools of medicine. Even Memphis, which is not very academically prestigious, offers a school of law and a college of engineering.

No question. Heck, five AAC schools are in the top 100 or so of the US News rankings.

But the thing is, there are also several between 100 and 200, and some in the 200s. So given that very broad spread, I am hard-pressed to think of schools that wouldn't qualify for the AAC on academic grounds. I guess maybe the limit is 300 or so? But no, because Boise falls outside of that range. Yes, I know Boise is an "exceptional" brand, but nevertheless, that's reaching pretty low.

The AAC just seems all over the map academically, with no rhyme or reason. That leads me to believe that academics just is not likely to be a big deal in any future expansion.

If I had to put a bracket around AAC academics, in terms of a drop-dead standard, I would say "US News top 300, with exceptions for exceptional brands". That's not much of a standard, IMO, though it would exclude some schools in other G5.

This may be why the AAC presidents haven't already approved Boise State.

Or ya know, the 1,400 mile distance from the nearest AAC football school.
04-22-2021 10:19 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #79
RE: AAC and Academics
(04-22-2021 09:35 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-21-2021 04:29 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  The American members offers, collectively, better academics than some folks realize. For example, seven of the league's 12 members offer schools of medicine. Even Memphis, which is not very academically prestigious, offers a school of law and a college of engineering.

No question. Heck, five AAC schools are in the top 100 or so of the US News rankings.

But the thing is, there are also several between 100 and 200, and some in the 200s. So given that very broad spread, I am hard-pressed to think of schools that wouldn't qualify for the AAC on academic grounds. I guess maybe the limit is 300 or so? But no, because Boise falls outside of that range. Yes, I know Boise is an "exceptional" brand, but nevertheless, that's reaching pretty low.

The AAC just seems all over the map academically, with no rhyme or reason. That leads me to believe that academics just is not likely to be a big deal in any future expansion.

If I had to put a bracket around AAC academics, in terms of a drop-dead standard, I would say "US News top 300, with exceptions for exceptional brands". That's not much of a standard, IMO, though it would exclude some schools in other G5.

All of the full member schools are USNWR top 200 schools except ECU and Memphis. ECU was in the top 200 when added—it fell out over the last couple of years and hopefully will return. Memphis is the only all sports member that wasn’t in the top 200 when added—and it was considered to be very very strong brand in basketball.....that’s a big deal at a time when the C7 made up most of the schools that still had voting rights. Of the hybrid members—Navy has an impeccable and honorable academic reputation—it’s just very specialized. Wichita is an exception—but again, it’s an exception granted for very very high level performance and brand value in a revenue sport.

Now, other than Boise—-who’s the massive G5 football brand name with consistent spectacular on the field performance that’s going to earn a. academic exception from the AAC presidents? BYU, Air Force, Army, SDSU—all are either not interested or too far away—and none of those needs an academic exception anyway. East of the Rockies—-I don’t see any G5 or available Indy school that has enough “brand value/stellar-the-field-performance” to even attract an AAC invite—much less an academic exception.....at least not right now...which is why the AAC remains at 11.
(This post was last modified: 04-22-2021 10:28 AM by Attackcoog.)
04-22-2021 10:23 AM
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Pony94 Offline
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AAC and Academics
(04-22-2021 10:05 AM)SMUstang Wrote:  
(04-22-2021 09:35 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-21-2021 04:29 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  The American members offers, collectively, better academics than some folks realize. For example, seven of the league's 12 members offer schools of medicine. Even Memphis, which is not very academically prestigious, offers a school of law and a college of engineering.

No question. Heck, five AAC schools are in the top 100 or so of the US News rankings.

But the thing is, there are also several between 100 and 200, and some in the 200s. So given that very broad spread, I am hard-pressed to think of schools that wouldn't qualify for the AAC on academic grounds. I guess maybe the limit is 300 or so? But no, because Boise falls outside of that range. Yes, I know Boise is an "exceptional" brand, but nevertheless, that's reaching pretty low.

The AAC just seems all over the map academically, with no rhyme or reason. That leads me to believe that academics just is not likely to be a big deal in any future expansion.

If I had to put a bracket around AAC academics, in terms of a drop-dead standard, I would say "US News top 300, with exceptions for exceptional brands". That's not much of a standard, IMO, though it would exclude some schools in other G5.

This may be why the AAC presidents haven't already approved Boise State.


No it’s not
04-22-2021 10:27 AM
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