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University of Hartford considering dropping down from Division 1
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AssyrianDuke Online
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Post: #341
RE: University of Hartford considering dropping down from Division 1
Is that one for each person that attended a Hartford basketball game over the years?
05-14-2021 07:24 AM
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schmolik Offline
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Post: #342
RE: University of Hartford considering dropping down from Division 1
CBS Sports article about University of Hartford:

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basket...ivision-i/
05-14-2021 09:45 AM
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Post: #343
RE: University of Hartford considering dropping down from Division 1
(05-14-2021 09:45 AM)schmolik Wrote:  CBS Sports article about University of Hartford:

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basket...ivision-i/

Quote from the article. Private schools really do need to take a look at whether the Division I subsidies are justified.

"...If Hartford had not gotten so good, this wouldn't be a big story. There is speculation around college athletics that at least a dozen other universities are at least exploring a similar move, especially given how the COVID-19 pandemic has ravaged the American collegiate ecosystem. We could look up in a decade and see 20 schools follow Hartford's lead, or perhaps Hartford will be the only one. Maybe it will be spared in the end...."
05-14-2021 01:03 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #344
RE: University of Hartford considering dropping down from Division 1
(05-14-2021 01:03 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(05-14-2021 09:45 AM)schmolik Wrote:  CBS Sports article about University of Hartford:

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basket...ivision-i/

Quote from the article. Private schools really do need to take a look at whether the Division I subsidies are justified.

"...If Hartford had not gotten so good, this wouldn't be a big story. There is speculation around college athletics that at least a dozen other universities are at least exploring a similar move, especially given how the COVID-19 pandemic has ravaged the American collegiate ecosystem. We could look up in a decade and see 20 schools follow Hartford's lead, or perhaps Hartford will be the only one. Maybe it will be spared in the end...."

I always LOL when people talk about moving to DIII or whatever as this big letdown or something. What's particularly mind-boggling is when some alleged alumnus will say things like "well if we drop to D2 I won't come to games or donate anymore". Those people are not real citizens of the school, IMO.

D1 athletics isn't inherently any superior to D3 athletics. It's all just athletics representing the school in competition vs other schools. A game between Texas Panhandle State and Oklahoma Panhandle State isn't intrinsically inferior to a game between Texas and Oklahoma.

I think people who disparage D3 and other lower divisions do that because they have some kind of investment, either emotional or economic, in Division I. And usually they want to spend someone else's money to pay for that investment.
(This post was last modified: 05-14-2021 01:16 PM by quo vadis.)
05-14-2021 01:11 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #345
RE: University of Hartford considering dropping down from Division 1
(05-14-2021 01:11 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-14-2021 01:03 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(05-14-2021 09:45 AM)schmolik Wrote:  CBS Sports article about University of Hartford:

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basket...ivision-i/

Quote from the article. Private schools really do need to take a look at whether the Division I subsidies are justified.

"...If Hartford had not gotten so good, this wouldn't be a big story. There is speculation around college athletics that at least a dozen other universities are at least exploring a similar move, especially given how the COVID-19 pandemic has ravaged the American collegiate ecosystem. We could look up in a decade and see 20 schools follow Hartford's lead, or perhaps Hartford will be the only one. Maybe it will be spared in the end...."

I always LOL when people talk about moving to DIII or whatever as this big letdown or something. What's particularly mind-boggling is when some alleged alumnus will say things like "well if we drop to D2 I won't come to games or donate anymore". Those people are not real citizens of the school, IMO.

D1 athletics isn't inherently any superior to D3 athletics. It's all just athletics representing the school in competition vs other schools. A game between Texas Panhandle State and Oklahoma Panhandle State isn't intrinsically inferior to a game between Texas and Oklahoma.

I think people who disparage D3 and other lower divisions do that because they have some kind of investment, either emotional or economic, in Division I. And usually they want to spend someone else's money to pay for that investment.

Higher ed has a copy-cat culture. If this school has this program, a hospital, or is in this athletic division, then we need to have that, too. That’s what really drives growth or sustains what looks like utter foolishness at these places where schools go for broke on programs and infrastructure, or look horridly out-resourced at the level.

And I’m with you. There is nothing wrong with D3. You’d swear that with some resources or venues, some places could actually pass for low-level D1. But, it’s pecking order. And you have some schools hanging on where they are probably because if they drop, they become invisible institutionally for recruitment, funding, and donations. I guess Hartford isn’t that scared of it. Good for them.

My only question about this move remains where in D3 they think they’ll land.
05-17-2021 05:49 AM
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Post: #346
RE: University of Hartford considering dropping down from Division 1
(05-14-2021 12:31 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  I wonder if we’ll see a storming of the President’s office like when all those Big Ten parents flew to Rosemont.



I get what they're going for, but they probably shouldn't used the phrasing of "These flags represent the number of people who see the president as unfit."

Between undergrad and grad, the school has about 6,700 students, and 10s of thousands of alums. 1,300 is a fraction of that
05-17-2021 09:28 AM
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Post: #347
RE: University of Hartford considering dropping down from Division 1
(05-14-2021 01:03 PM)bullet Wrote:  Quote from the article. Private schools really do need to take a look at whether the Division I subsidies are justified.

So do public schools.
05-17-2021 09:30 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #348
RE: University of Hartford considering dropping down from Division 1
(05-17-2021 09:30 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  
(05-14-2021 01:03 PM)bullet Wrote:  Quote from the article. Private schools really do need to take a look at whether the Division I subsidies are justified.

So do public schools.

Yes, and the problem is actually worse in the public schools, because private schools tend to be run by the entities that are actually spending their own money on those subsidies.

In contrast, with public schools, you often have an "agency problem", where the administrators making the decisions about athletics are spending someone else's money (the publics, students, etc.) and moreover they tend to have a personal career interest in keeping the school at the "highest level" regardless of cost to those other entities, because administrators running higher-level programs tend to get paid more, and it looks good on their resume when searching for new jobs.
(This post was last modified: 05-17-2021 09:49 AM by quo vadis.)
05-17-2021 09:46 AM
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IWokeUpLikeThis Offline
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Post: #349
RE: University of Hartford considering dropping down from Division 1
Former AD alleging Woodward/study lied about numbers
https://ctmirror.org/category/ct-viewpoi...-hartford/

Also, Woodward was reportedly booed and ran off the stage at the commencement ceremony.
05-17-2021 05:13 PM
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Post: #350
RE: University of Hartford considering dropping down from Division 1
(05-17-2021 09:30 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  
(05-14-2021 01:03 PM)bullet Wrote:  Quote from the article. Private schools really do need to take a look at whether the Division I subsidies are justified.

So do public schools.


Wrong. The different levels of divisions should represent the number of students, alum and faculty. It should look more like what the states do with high schools. There are many large publics in D3 looked more D1 type and a lot of D1 schools look more like D3.
05-17-2021 05:33 PM
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Cyniclone Offline
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Post: #351
RE: University of Hartford considering dropping down from Division 1
(05-17-2021 05:33 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(05-17-2021 09:30 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  
(05-14-2021 01:03 PM)bullet Wrote:  Quote from the article. Private schools really do need to take a look at whether the Division I subsidies are justified.

So do public schools.


Wrong. The different levels of divisions should represent the number of students, alum and faculty. It should look more like what the states do with high schools. There are many large publics in D3 looked more D1 type and a lot of D1 schools look more like D3.

Why should smaller schools that have made significant commitments to D1 athletics and larger schools that have no interest in scholarship sports be forced to acquiesce to your weird need to group everyone by population?
05-17-2021 05:43 PM
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Post: #352
RE: University of Hartford considering dropping down from Division 1
(05-17-2021 05:33 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(05-17-2021 09:30 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  
(05-14-2021 01:03 PM)bullet Wrote:  Quote from the article. Private schools really do need to take a look at whether the Division I subsidies are justified.

So do public schools.

Wrong. The different levels of divisions should represent the number of students, alum and faculty. It should look more like what the states do with high schools. There are many large publics in D3 looked more D1 type and a lot of D1 schools look more like D3.

Pure idiocy.
05-17-2021 06:00 PM
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johnintx Offline
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Post: #353
RE: University of Hartford considering dropping down from Division 1
(05-17-2021 06:00 PM)AZcats Wrote:  
(05-17-2021 05:33 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(05-17-2021 09:30 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  
(05-14-2021 01:03 PM)bullet Wrote:  Quote from the article. Private schools really do need to take a look at whether the Division I subsidies are justified.

So do public schools.

Wrong. The different levels of divisions should represent the number of students, alum and faculty. It should look more like what the states do with high schools. There are many large publics in D3 looked more D1 type and a lot of D1 schools look more like D3.

Pure idiocy.

This is college athletics. It's driven by the interests of each school's constituents. If St. Bonaventure, with 1700 undergrads, wants to raise money to compete at a high level of Division I athletics, they should have the freedom to do so. Likewise, if the University of Texas at Dallas, with 22,000 undergrads, wants to compete in Division III, they should be allowed to do so.

In Hartford's situation, if their supporters and administration can back Division I athletics, they should continue to do so. Unfortunately, it looks like a president manipulated the situation on his way out the door.
(This post was last modified: 05-17-2021 08:52 PM by johnintx.)
05-17-2021 08:49 PM
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Post: #354
RE: University of Hartford considering dropping down from Division 1
(05-17-2021 08:49 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(05-17-2021 06:00 PM)AZcats Wrote:  
(05-17-2021 05:33 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(05-17-2021 09:30 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  
(05-14-2021 01:03 PM)bullet Wrote:  Quote from the article. Private schools really do need to take a look at whether the Division I subsidies are justified.

So do public schools.

Wrong. The different levels of divisions should represent the number of students, alum and faculty. It should look more like what the states do with high schools. There are many large publics in D3 looked more D1 type and a lot of D1 schools look more like D3.

Pure idiocy.

This is college athletics. It's driven by the interests of each school's constituents. If St. Bonaventure, with 1700 undergrads, wants to raise money to compete at a high level of Division I athletics, they should have the freedom to do so. Likewise, if the University of Texas at Dallas, with 22,000 undergrads, wants to compete in Division III, they should be allowed to do so.

In Hartford's situation, if their supporters and administration can back Division I athletics, they should continue to do so. Unfortunately, it looks like a president manipulated the situation on his way out the door.

That's a lot like the Humboldt State president who cut football before she retired.
05-17-2021 09:27 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #355
RE: University of Hartford considering dropping down from Division 1
(05-17-2021 08:49 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(05-17-2021 06:00 PM)AZcats Wrote:  
(05-17-2021 05:33 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(05-17-2021 09:30 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  
(05-14-2021 01:03 PM)bullet Wrote:  Quote from the article. Private schools really do need to take a look at whether the Division I subsidies are justified.

So do public schools.

Wrong. The different levels of divisions should represent the number of students, alum and faculty. It should look more like what the states do with high schools. There are many large publics in D3 looked more D1 type and a lot of D1 schools look more like D3.

Pure idiocy.

This is college athletics. It's driven by the interests of each school's constituents. If St. Bonaventure, with 1700 undergrads, wants to raise money to compete at a high level of Division I athletics, they should have the freedom to do so. Likewise, if the University of Texas at Dallas, with 22,000 undergrads, wants to compete in Division III, they should be allowed to do so.

In Hartford's situation, if their supporters and administration can back Division I athletics, they should continue to do so. Unfortunately, it looks like a president manipulated the situation on his way out the door.

But, they hadn't been able to do so. Athletics is IIRC in a $13m budget hole at Hartford.

That's the case with most schools that allegedly "back" D1 athletics. They don't really back it, the revenues generated do not cover expenses. They have to do transfers from the academic 'side' to cover for that lack of support.

And has the Hartford president resigned or something? If so, I missed that.
(This post was last modified: 05-17-2021 09:31 PM by quo vadis.)
05-17-2021 09:29 PM
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Post: #356
RE: University of Hartford considering dropping down from Division 1
(05-17-2021 08:49 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(05-17-2021 06:00 PM)AZcats Wrote:  
(05-17-2021 05:33 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(05-17-2021 09:30 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  
(05-14-2021 01:03 PM)bullet Wrote:  Quote from the article. Private schools really do need to take a look at whether the Division I subsidies are justified.

So do public schools.

Wrong. The different levels of divisions should represent the number of students, alum and faculty. It should look more like what the states do with high schools. There are many large publics in D3 looked more D1 type and a lot of D1 schools look more like D3.

Pure idiocy.

This is college athletics. It's driven by the interests of each school's constituents. If St. Bonaventure, with 1700 undergrads, wants to raise money to compete at a high level of Division I athletics, they should have the freedom to do so. Likewise, if the University of Texas at Dallas, with 22,000 undergrads, wants to compete in Division III, they should be allowed to do so.

In Hartford's situation, if their supporters and administration can back Division I athletics, they should continue to do so. Unfortunately, it looks like a president manipulated the situation on his way out the door.


The problem is that we are seeing schools that are over their heads in d1. Hartford and others are like them. UT-Dallas is aiming for D2. Rowan wants D1. that is what the is going to happen. There is compeititon in Texas on how many of their public schools to get into the AAU. They are eyeing D1 as the point to get on tv and recognized.
05-17-2021 09:35 PM
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Post: #357
RE: University of Hartford considering dropping down from Division 1
(05-17-2021 09:29 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-17-2021 08:49 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(05-17-2021 06:00 PM)AZcats Wrote:  
(05-17-2021 05:33 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(05-17-2021 09:30 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  So do public schools.

Wrong. The different levels of divisions should represent the number of students, alum and faculty. It should look more like what the states do with high schools. There are many large publics in D3 looked more D1 type and a lot of D1 schools look more like D3.

Pure idiocy.

This is college athletics. It's driven by the interests of each school's constituents. If St. Bonaventure, with 1700 undergrads, wants to raise money to compete at a high level of Division I athletics, they should have the freedom to do so. Likewise, if the University of Texas at Dallas, with 22,000 undergrads, wants to compete in Division III, they should be allowed to do so.

In Hartford's situation, if their supporters and administration can back Division I athletics, they should continue to do so. Unfortunately, it looks like a president manipulated the situation on his way out the door.

But, they hadn't been able to do so. Athletics is IIRC in a $13m budget hole at Hartford.

That's the case with most schools that allegedly "back" D1 athletics. They don't really back it, the revenues generated do not cover expenses. They have to do transfers from the academic 'side' to cover for that lack of support.

And has the Hartford president resigned or something? If so, I missed that.

I meant, if they can back D-I, they should go ahead and stay in it. They should have the opportunity to be in Division I. However, in Hartford's situation, they've had their chance, and it doesn't look like they'll stay unless they get an emergency bailout from supporters..doubtful. I think we're on the same page on this one.

The Hartford president hasn't resigned. His critics point out that he is close to retirement, and that he allegedly has spent the pandemic off campus and out of state. Connecting the dots, it looks like he's on his way out the door.
05-17-2021 09:58 PM
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IWokeUpLikeThis Offline
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Post: #358
RE: University of Hartford considering dropping down from Division 1
(05-17-2021 05:43 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(05-17-2021 05:33 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(05-17-2021 09:30 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  
(05-14-2021 01:03 PM)bullet Wrote:  Quote from the article. Private schools really do need to take a look at whether the Division I subsidies are justified.

So do public schools.


Wrong. The different levels of divisions should represent the number of students, alum and faculty. It should look more like what the states do with high schools. There are many large publics in D3 looked more D1 type and a lot of D1 schools look more like D3.

Why should smaller schools that have made significant commitments to D1 athletics and larger schools that have no interest in scholarship sports be forced to acquiesce to your weird need to group everyone by population?

If you look at the “Which D1 conferences would you relegate?” poll, DavidSt voted for the WCC. So Gonzaga, BYU, and Saint Mary’s are f*cked.
05-17-2021 10:02 PM
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Post: #359
RE: University of Hartford considering dropping down from Division 1
(05-17-2021 09:58 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(05-17-2021 09:29 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-17-2021 08:49 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(05-17-2021 06:00 PM)AZcats Wrote:  
(05-17-2021 05:33 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Wrong. The different levels of divisions should represent the number of students, alum and faculty. It should look more like what the states do with high schools. There are many large publics in D3 looked more D1 type and a lot of D1 schools look more like D3.

Pure idiocy.

This is college athletics. It's driven by the interests of each school's constituents. If St. Bonaventure, with 1700 undergrads, wants to raise money to compete at a high level of Division I athletics, they should have the freedom to do so. Likewise, if the University of Texas at Dallas, with 22,000 undergrads, wants to compete in Division III, they should be allowed to do so.

In Hartford's situation, if their supporters and administration can back Division I athletics, they should continue to do so. Unfortunately, it looks like a president manipulated the situation on his way out the door.

But, they hadn't been able to do so. Athletics is IIRC in a $13m budget hole at Hartford.

That's the case with most schools that allegedly "back" D1 athletics. They don't really back it, the revenues generated do not cover expenses. They have to do transfers from the academic 'side' to cover for that lack of support.

And has the Hartford president resigned or something? If so, I missed that.

I meant, if they can back D-I, they should go ahead and stay in it. They should have the opportunity to be in Division I. However, in Hartford's situation, they've had their chance, and it doesn't look like they'll stay unless they get an emergency bailout from supporters..doubtful. I think we're on the same page on this one.

04-cheers
05-18-2021 08:36 AM
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AssyrianDuke Online
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RE: University of Hartford considering dropping down from Division 1
(05-17-2021 09:29 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-17-2021 08:49 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(05-17-2021 06:00 PM)AZcats Wrote:  
(05-17-2021 05:33 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(05-17-2021 09:30 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  So do public schools.

Wrong. The different levels of divisions should represent the number of students, alum and faculty. It should look more like what the states do with high schools. There are many large publics in D3 looked more D1 type and a lot of D1 schools look more like D3.

Pure idiocy.

This is college athletics. It's driven by the interests of each school's constituents. If St. Bonaventure, with 1700 undergrads, wants to raise money to compete at a high level of Division I athletics, they should have the freedom to do so. Likewise, if the University of Texas at Dallas, with 22,000 undergrads, wants to compete in Division III, they should be allowed to do so.

In Hartford's situation, if their supporters and administration can back Division I athletics, they should continue to do so. Unfortunately, it looks like a president manipulated the situation on his way out the door.

But, they hadn't been able to do so. Athletics is IIRC in a $13m budget hole at Hartford.

That's the case with most schools that allegedly "back" D1 athletics. They don't really back it, the revenues generated do not cover expenses. They have to do transfers from the academic 'side' to cover for that lack of support.

And has the Hartford president resigned or something? If so, I missed that.

An interesting part of the CT Mirror op-ed from the previous Hartford AD mentions that the university bills the athletics department for the merit awards given to student-athletes. With almost 350 athletes, that figure can't be an insignificant portion of the $13M.

"The decline [in enrollment] occurring under President Gregory Woodward’s watch was so distressing that Woodward raised merit award dollar amounts to attract and retain more students. Woodward’s action drastically increased the university discount rate, devaluing the Hartford product. As a result, athletics was billed for the increased academic awards for students who just happened to be athletes. Yes, you read that correctly. If a student tries out for and makes the women’s soccer team, an academic merit award that she earned likely before even joining the team, is billed as an expense to athletics."
05-18-2021 08:38 AM
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