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Rumor: Incarnate Word gets site visit from WAC
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teamvsn Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Rumor: Incarnate Word gets site visit from WAC
(04-08-2021 09:35 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(04-08-2021 12:15 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  
(04-08-2021 09:54 AM)Bobcat2013 Wrote:  
(04-08-2021 09:44 AM)teamvsn Wrote:  
(04-08-2021 09:26 AM)Bobcat2013 Wrote:  So if they're so unambitious then what makes them a no brainer?

They'll get there eventually. And often the people who launch athletic programs aren't there 5 years later.

Look at TAMU Texarkana's trajectory, and they're in a much smaller market.

Looking down the road IWU would make an interesting cross town rival for TAMU SA.

I've not even heard of TAMU Texarkana honestly. Where is their trajectory headed?
2000 - UG enrollment 775
2014 - Launches athletic program and joins the NAIA with M & W Tennis and W Soccer, UG Enrollment 1363
2015 - adds Baseball, goes 2-2 in NAIA opening round (2-2), UG Enrollment 1,422
2016 - Joins Red River Conference, adds M Soccer, UG Enrollment 1,583
2017 - adds Softball, UG Enrollment 1,647
2018 - Completes Patterson Student Center (Gymnasium), UG Enrollment 1,664
2019 - adds M & W Basketball
2020 - M Basketball qualifies for NAIA Opening Round (L), EG Enrollment 1,723

This is a typical trajectory for an NAIA start up. Truly a "start up". They had no facilities, administration or coaches. For any start up, first you have to hire a core administration, decide which sports to sponsor and when, decide where to play, possibly build new facilities, hire coaches to coach those sports, recruit players, recruit sponsors, build support in the community, etc. You can't just pop that all into place in one year. So even if you're super ambitious, you are probably going to roll out one or two sports at a time. Where are your early sports going to play until you have enough to meet NCAA requirements? The NAIA.

Texarkana fits the profile of a typical NAIA school, so they might make the NAIA their permanent home. I could see them going D2 if they found a good conference fit at some point. I think they will probably add W and possibly M Volleyball soon. Football is a possibility as well, although facilities would be a big question. Lots of other minor sports could follow such as golf, track, cross country, etc.

TAMU SA is a different story. I am happy they are in the NAIA but I have no doubt that they will outgrow it pretty quickly. I think their enrollment goals are in the 10s of thousands. They already have 6800. A city of 1.5 million can easily support multiple D1 schools. Think of all the TAMU main campus alumni that are in SA that would like to see a TAMU "little brother" playing in their town. It may never be a heavyweight D1, but there's room for success there.

What is the point of A&M-SA? There is already UTSA which is not especially selective. There is San Antonio College (JC). And Texas State is just 50 miles up the road. And that doesn't count the private colleges-Trinity, St. Mary's and Incarnate Word and Texas Lutheran in Seguin.

You're asking me? Someone else brought them up, I am just answering questions. My timeline for TAMU SA is 10 years from now. And that might be too optimistic given that they'd have to be D2 first. Clearly there's no point for them now. Ask me again in 10 years.
04-08-2021 11:01 PM
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johnintx Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Rumor: Incarnate Word gets site visit from WAC
(04-08-2021 09:35 PM)bullet Wrote:  What is the point of A&M-SA? There is already UTSA which is not especially selective. There is San Antonio College (JC). And Texas State is just 50 miles up the road. And that doesn't count the private colleges-Trinity, St. Mary's and Incarnate Word and Texas Lutheran in Seguin.

I'm not that familiar with the local politics in San Antonio, but it looks similar to UNT-Dallas: serving an underserved population in the city. They're offering bachelor's degrees on the south side of San Antonio, when there were previously none offered. According to the Wikipedia article, it was originally a branch of A&M-Kingsville before becoming an independent school.

So, south San Antonio gets a university, and A&M gets another campus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_A%26...an_Antonio
04-08-2021 11:08 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Rumor: Incarnate Word gets site visit from WAC
(04-08-2021 10:47 PM)GeminiCoog Wrote:  
(04-08-2021 09:21 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(04-08-2021 08:21 PM)GeminiCoog Wrote:  
(04-08-2021 07:40 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(04-08-2021 06:16 PM)GeminiCoog Wrote:  Figured it would happen. They’re not a bad school; just need to upgrade some facilities if and when they get invited to join the WAC.


Yes, when they are ready to join the WAC in 2050. Their facilities are crap and they are more D2 level.

Wouldn’t the WAC need someone who’s ready to start competition right now and not have to go into a transition period due to moving up from a lower classification? West Texas A&M would still need a transition period unless the WAC sponsored them for an immediate move up, and even then, they’d still require at least a year or two to completely move up.

Incarnate Word is already FCS. All they would have to do is switch leagues and upgrade some of their facilities for when the WAC goes back to FBS football. Besides, if they need to, they could use Alamo Stadium until their football stadium is ready for FBS-level competition.

But hey, I’m just some guy in Texas who has had many friends and family members go to the Texas Four schools, especially the two in the Piney Woods and the one in Beaumont. If they’re saying Incarnate Word is the next school, I believe them. I’d certainly believe them more than I would you.


West Texas A&M already have a D1 type facilities than Incarnate Word. They are the school that the Texas schools want because they are in a much better position than any other Southland schools. They bring better football and men's basketball product to the table for the WAC than Incarnate Word. Lets not forget that West Texas A&M did hold conference titles in D1 for football and men's basketball before. There is history there with them at D1 level a lot longer than Incarnate Word were.

Yes, that is true. And yet, Incarnate Word is currently D1 while West Texas A&M is currently D2.

So who has an easier time moving to the WAC? Not the D2 school.

Sorry, dude, but if the WAC wants to have a six-team conference in football right now, the answer is Incarnate Word. If they don’t mind waiting until another D2 can move up and be a full member in a few years, the answer is absolutely West Texas A&M.


The WAC will invite Texas Southern before they will invite a school nobody wanted in the first place.
04-09-2021 03:52 AM
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HawaiiMongoose Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Rumor: Incarnate Word gets site visit from WAC
(04-08-2021 10:21 AM)MattBrownEP Wrote:  I'll have an update on all of this on Monday

Great, looking forward to it Matt.
04-09-2021 05:25 AM
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Cowboy Frog Offline
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Post: #65
Rumor: Incarnate Word gets site visit from WAC
Incarnate will get the bid ....But, WT is not too far behind ...The WAC is on the MOVE ..!!!


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04-09-2021 06:37 AM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Rumor: Incarnate Word gets site visit from WAC
Personally, I think they should wait for WTAMU to get ready but I imagine some of the West (non-fb schools) are pushing Incarnate Word due to their presence in a decent sized city with an airport.
04-09-2021 07:02 AM
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72Tiger Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Rumor: Incarnate Word gets site visit from WAC
UIW to the WAC and WT A&M to the Southland may work.
04-09-2021 07:07 AM
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johnbragg Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Rumor: Incarnate Word gets site visit from WAC
(04-08-2021 08:21 PM)GeminiCoog Wrote:  
(04-08-2021 07:40 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(04-08-2021 06:16 PM)GeminiCoog Wrote:  Figured it would happen. They’re not a bad school; just need to upgrade some facilities if and when they get invited to join the WAC.


Yes, when they are ready to join the WAC in 2050. Their facilities are crap and they are more D2 level.

Wouldn’t the WAC need someone who’s ready to start competition right now and not have to go into a transition period due to moving up from a lower classification?

Not necessarily. They could get a waiver, maybe. Or they could go for a year or two without an FCS autobid. (Or UT-RGV could start up, but I think if they were going to, they already would have).

Quote:Incarnate Word is already FCS. All they would have to do is switch leagues
That's true. Incarnate Word is fully Division I, has football, etc.

Quote: and upgrade some of their facilities for when the WAC goes back to FBS football. Besides, if they need to, they could use Alamo Stadium until their football stadium is ready for FBS-level competition.

Wait what? Yeah, I don't think "FBS-level competition" is something they need to worry about. Maybe "to be competitive with the top levels of FCS" or something, benchmark their facilities against Montana, North Dakota State, Sam Houston State, James Madison, etc. (I have no idea what those facilities are really like).

(04-08-2021 09:21 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  West Texas A&M already have a D1 type facilities than Incarnate Word.

But they don't have a Division I membership card, right now, today. That might be the deciding factor.

Quote:They are the school that the Texas schools want because they are in a much better position than any other Southland schools.

Well, the Southland and the WAC have been scraping the bottom of the barrel for Texas Division I callups for about 10 years, and West Texas A&M is still D-2, so I'd advise you to re-consider that assumption.

Quote:They bring better football and men's basketball product to the table for the WAC than Incarnate Word.

1. I very much doubt that, since West Texas A&M is Division II, in the back end of nowhere, while Incarnate Word is Division I, in a borderline major-league metro area.
2. Even if it is true, a couple of coaching hires and facility upgrades changes that. Start handing out envelopes of cash to some recruit's moms and uncles, and you git gud.

Quote:Lets not forget that West Texas A&M did hold conference titles in D1 for football and men's basketball before. There is history there with them at D1 level a lot longer than Incarnate Word were.

That. Doesn't. Matter. That history is so long ago, the school was called Texas Western then. And actually that was UTEP, not West Texas A&M. Which indicates how much it doesn't matter. Nobody is going to consider WTA&M's Missouri Valley conference titles, except maybe some 80 year old AD at Eastern Illinois. For the WAC, the Southland, it doesn't matter that they were Division I-A for three years when everybody was on cocaine anyway.

(04-08-2021 10:47 PM)GeminiCoog Wrote:  Yes, that is true. And yet, Incarnate Word is currently D1 while West Texas A&M is currently D2.

So who has an easier time moving to the WAC? Not the D2 school.

Sorry, dude, but if the WAC wants to have a six-team conference in football right now, the answer is Incarnate Word. If they don’t mind waiting until another D2 can move up and be a full member in a few years, the answer is absolutely West Texas A&M.

Wait, that's absolutely right. You were supposed to be Wrong On The Internet, and I was supposed to correct you.

(04-09-2021 03:52 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  The WAC will invite Texas Southern before they will invite a school nobody wanted in the first place.

I'm sure they've already reached out to Texas Southern, and Texas Southern told them to jump in a lake.

You can only add members who want to join.
04-09-2021 07:59 AM
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GeminiCoog Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Rumor: Incarnate Word gets site visit from WAC
Thanks for the breakdown, John. And like I said, if I end up being wrong, I'll admit it on here. 04-cheers
04-09-2021 08:58 AM
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DoubleRSU Offline
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Post: #70
RE: Rumor: Incarnate Word gets site visit from WAC
(04-09-2021 07:07 AM)72Tiger Wrote:  UIW to the WAC and WT A&M to the Southland may work.

WTAMU would be stupid to not jump at a WAC invite and settle for the Southland. The WAC has better schools, it’s not even close.
04-09-2021 10:42 AM
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72Tiger Offline
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Post: #71
RE: Rumor: Incarnate Word gets site visit from WAC
(04-09-2021 10:42 AM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  
(04-09-2021 07:07 AM)72Tiger Wrote:  UIW to the WAC and WT A&M to the Southland may work.

WTAMU would be stupid to not jump at a WAC invite and settle for the Southland. The WAC has better schools, it’s not even close.

I was just thinking it would work smoother for the number of transitioning members from DII to FCS. Southland would have just the one with WT A&M and the WAC still only two with Tarleton and Dixie.
04-09-2021 12:25 PM
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DoubleRSU Offline
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Post: #72
RE: Rumor: Incarnate Word gets site visit from WAC
(04-09-2021 12:25 PM)72Tiger Wrote:  
(04-09-2021 10:42 AM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  
(04-09-2021 07:07 AM)72Tiger Wrote:  UIW to the WAC and WT A&M to the Southland may work.

WTAMU would be stupid to not jump at a WAC invite and settle for the Southland. The WAC has better schools, it’s not even close.

I was just thinking it would work smoother for the number of transitioning members from DII to FCS. Southland would have just the one with WT A&M and the WAC still only two with Tarleton and Dixie.

Season 1 is already done. Season 2 is on it’s way. WTAMU wouldn’t be joining until season 3 or 4 at the earliest.
04-09-2021 12:31 PM
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BullsFanInTX Offline
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Post: #73
RE: Rumor: Incarnate Word gets site visit from WAC
(04-08-2021 09:35 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(04-08-2021 12:15 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  
(04-08-2021 09:54 AM)Bobcat2013 Wrote:  
(04-08-2021 09:44 AM)teamvsn Wrote:  
(04-08-2021 09:26 AM)Bobcat2013 Wrote:  So if they're so unambitious then what makes them a no brainer?

They'll get there eventually. And often the people who launch athletic programs aren't there 5 years later.

Look at TAMU Texarkana's trajectory, and they're in a much smaller market.

Looking down the road IWU would make an interesting cross town rival for TAMU SA.

I've not even heard of TAMU Texarkana honestly. Where is their trajectory headed?
2000 - UG enrollment 775
2014 - Launches athletic program and joins the NAIA with M & W Tennis and W Soccer, UG Enrollment 1363
2015 - adds Baseball, goes 2-2 in NAIA opening round (2-2), UG Enrollment 1,422
2016 - Joins Red River Conference, adds M Soccer, UG Enrollment 1,583
2017 - adds Softball, UG Enrollment 1,647
2018 - Completes Patterson Student Center (Gymnasium), UG Enrollment 1,664
2019 - adds M & W Basketball
2020 - M Basketball qualifies for NAIA Opening Round (L), EG Enrollment 1,723

This is a typical trajectory for an NAIA start up. Truly a "start up". They had no facilities, administration or coaches. For any start up, first you have to hire a core administration, decide which sports to sponsor and when, decide where to play, possibly build new facilities, hire coaches to coach those sports, recruit players, recruit sponsors, build support in the community, etc. You can't just pop that all into place in one year. So even if you're super ambitious, you are probably going to roll out one or two sports at a time. Where are your early sports going to play until you have enough to meet NCAA requirements? The NAIA.

Texarkana fits the profile of a typical NAIA school, so they might make the NAIA their permanent home. I could see them going D2 if they found a good conference fit at some point. I think they will probably add W and possibly M Volleyball soon. Football is a possibility as well, although facilities would be a big question. Lots of other minor sports could follow such as golf, track, cross country, etc.

TAMU SA is a different story. I am happy they are in the NAIA but I have no doubt that they will outgrow it pretty quickly. I think their enrollment goals are in the 10s of thousands. They already have 6800. A city of 1.5 million can easily support multiple D1 schools. Think of all the TAMU main campus alumni that are in SA that would like to see a TAMU "little brother" playing in their town. It may never be a heavyweight D1, but there's room for success there.

What is the point of A&M-SA? There is already UTSA which is not especially selective. There is San Antonio College (JC). And Texas State is just 50 miles up the road. And that doesn't count the private colleges-Trinity, St. Mary's and Incarnate Word and Texas Lutheran in Seguin.

To serve the south side of San Antonio. San Antonio has 2.5 million people and UTSA is on the far northwest side.
04-09-2021 01:00 PM
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Cyniclone Offline
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Post: #74
RE: Rumor: Incarnate Word gets site visit from WAC
Could WTAMU join the Summit and make football an FCS independent? There's no conference requirement to start a program in FCS, and I don't believe there's one for move-ups either. Obviously it would require the Summit showing interest (maybe if Western Illinois left to bring them back to nine full members next year?), but that would give them an opening to move up to FCS while the WAC/Southland transition sorts itself out (not that FCS independence is a long-term solution but at least you'd have plenty of OOC opportunities).
04-09-2021 01:02 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #75
RE: Rumor: Incarnate Word gets site visit from WAC
(04-09-2021 12:25 PM)72Tiger Wrote:  
(04-09-2021 10:42 AM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  
(04-09-2021 07:07 AM)72Tiger Wrote:  UIW to the WAC and WT A&M to the Southland may work.

WTAMU would be stupid to not jump at a WAC invite and settle for the Southland. The WAC has better schools, it’s not even close.

I was just thinking it would work smoother for the number of transitioning members from DII to FCS. Southland would have just the one with WT A&M and the WAC still only two with Tarleton and Dixie.


West Texas A&M is the bridge school that the WAC needs as a football member.

Dixie State
Southern Utah
New Mexico State
West Texas A&M
Abilene Christian

Tarleton State
Sam Houston State
Lamar
SFAU
UTRGV

West Texas A&M is closer to the Utah schools than Incarnate Word. West Texas A&M's ad is already on record saying they will look at D1 in a few years. They will not fit in the Southland because they would be like UTEP is in the C-USA. Southland is a no go for West Texas A&M at this point. The other Lone Star schools yes. WAC will have 7 football members in 2022 season and UTRGV is supposed to add football in 2023 which makes it 8. WAC could and should wait until West Texas A&M is ready to make the leap.
04-09-2021 01:16 PM
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Post: #76
RE: Rumor: Incarnate Word gets site visit from WAC
What if they end up inviting both Incarnate Word and West Texas A&M? As was mentioned earlier, it depends on what the WAC feels like it needs to do. Incarnate Word meets the immediate need for a sixth football school. West Texas A&M can still be the bridge in a few years. It could be the best of both worlds.
04-09-2021 01:33 PM
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Post: #77
RE: Rumor: Incarnate Word gets site visit from WAC
(04-09-2021 07:02 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Personally, I think they should wait for WTAMU to get ready but I imagine some of the West (non-fb schools) are pushing Incarnate Word due to their presence in a decent sized city with an airport.

Amarillo, while physically isolated, has decent enough air service, though Delta has discontinued service for the time being. If/when they add SLC back, it'll be that much better for the WAC. But between Southwest, American, and United, no WAC school is more than a one-stop flight to Amarillo.
(This post was last modified: 04-09-2021 02:33 PM by CitrusUCF.)
04-09-2021 02:32 PM
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Post: #78
Rumor: Incarnate Word gets site visit from WAC
They will add BOTH ... Plus One ..!!!


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04-09-2021 02:51 PM
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Post: #79
RE: Rumor: Incarnate Word gets site visit from WAC
What about Northern Arizona? With Southern Utah leaving, the WAC might be a better overall fit for them over the Big Sky?
04-09-2021 04:50 PM
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Post: #80
RE: Rumor: Incarnate Word gets site visit from WAC
(04-09-2021 02:51 PM)Cowboy Frog Wrote:  They will add BOTH ... Plus One ..!!!


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04-09-2021 05:04 PM
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