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CrimsonPhantom Offline
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George Orwell’s Last Public Interview Contains A Terrifying Warning Of The Future…




04-07-2021 05:26 PM
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olliebaba Offline
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RE: George Orwell’s Last Public Interview Contains A Terrifying Warning Of The Future…
Dang, we talk about Nuestro dumb*** as a seer but this guy really hit the nail on the head. He truly saw the future.
04-07-2021 06:03 PM
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domer1978 Offline
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RE: George Orwell’s Last Public Interview Contains A Terrifying Warning Of The Future…
Uncanny..
:/
04-07-2021 06:09 PM
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BlueDragon Offline
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RE: George Orwell’s Last Public Interview Contains A Terrifying Warning Of The Future…
I feel sorry for the FOOL who believes in gun control and attempts confiscating guns in TEXAS. Better have a lot of grossly ignorant subordinates because attrition will be astronomical.
04-07-2021 08:49 PM
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No2rdame Offline
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RE: George Orwell’s Last Public Interview Contains A Terrifying Warning Of The Future…
(04-07-2021 08:49 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  I feel sorry for the FOOL who believes in gun control and attempts confiscating guns in TEXAS. Better have a lot of grossly ignorant subordinates because attrition will be astronomical.

something tells me most sheriffs and other LEO outside of liberal sh*tholes like Austin won't comply with unconstitutional orders. I know for a fact here in Florida most of our sheriffs wouldn't go along with any confiscations.
04-07-2021 08:52 PM
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Danforth Offline
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RE: George Orwell’s Last Public Interview Contains A Terrifying Warning Of The Future…
Why do Conservatives love Orwell so much?
04-08-2021 09:49 AM
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No2rdame Offline
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RE: George Orwell’s Last Public Interview Contains A Terrifying Warning Of The Future…
(04-08-2021 09:49 AM)Danforth Wrote:  Why do Conservatives love Orwell so much?

Why do you liberals use 1984 as an instruction manual?
04-08-2021 10:00 AM
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bearcat65 Offline
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RE: George Orwell’s Last Public Interview Contains A Terrifying Warning Of The Future…
(04-08-2021 09:49 AM)Danforth Wrote:  Why do Conservatives love Orwell so much?

Because he showed the fallacy of socialism is such a way that only a simpleton or leftist could not understand it.
04-08-2021 10:00 AM
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smudge12 Offline
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RE: George Orwell’s Last Public Interview Contains A Terrifying Warning Of The Future…
(04-08-2021 10:00 AM)bearcat65 Wrote:  
(04-08-2021 09:49 AM)Danforth Wrote:  Why do Conservatives love Orwell so much?

Because he showed the fallacy of socialism is such a way that only a simpleton or leftist could not understand it.

Orwell wasn't against any particular economic system, but he was against totalitarianism and authoritarianism (specifically Stalinism).

He was a democratic socialist - in the context of his era - and even fought with the Marxist POUM during the Spanish Civil War (which he writes about in "Homage to Catalonia"). The Mi5 kept close tabs on him for being a suspected communist, which is exactly the type of authoritarianism he warns about.

His writings aren't warnings about socialism though.
(This post was last modified: 04-08-2021 10:15 AM by smudge12.)
04-08-2021 10:11 AM
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Danforth Offline
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RE: George Orwell’s Last Public Interview Contains A Terrifying Warning Of The Future…
(04-08-2021 10:11 AM)smudge12 Wrote:  
(04-08-2021 10:00 AM)bearcat65 Wrote:  
(04-08-2021 09:49 AM)Danforth Wrote:  Why do Conservatives love Orwell so much?

Because he showed the fallacy of socialism is such a way that only a simpleton or leftist could not understand it.

Orwell wasn't against any particular economic system, but he was against totalitarianism and authoritarianism (in particular, Stalinism).

He was a democratic socialist - in the context of his era - and even fought with the Marxist POUM during the Spanish Civil War (which he writes about in "Homage to Catalonia"). The Mi5 even kept close tabs on him for being a suspected communist, which is exactly the type of authoritarianism he warns about.

His writings aren't warnings about socialism though.

Wow thanks for the information. I never really researched the guy and I never read his famous book either.
04-08-2021 10:14 AM
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smudge12 Offline
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RE: George Orwell’s Last Public Interview Contains A Terrifying Warning Of The Future…
(04-08-2021 10:14 AM)Danforth Wrote:  Wow thanks for the information. I never really researched the guy and I never read his famous book either.

While I can't speak for Orwell, he'd probably have had issues with Trumpism, the American mainstream media, and things like "cancel-culture" or the recent Georgia voting laws.

Conservatives like to say "Orwell warned again socialism" while liberals like to say "But Orwell was a socialist!" The messaging of his writing is a lot more layered than that. He certainly had valid criticisms about socialism but didn't think socialism = authoritarianism.

edit: for example "1984" - which people love to reference - was written against communism because of the direction Stalin had taken the USSR, but it didn't mean Orwell didn't have leftist views (or was a capitalist).
(This post was last modified: 04-08-2021 10:36 AM by smudge12.)
04-08-2021 10:29 AM
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Danforth Offline
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RE: George Orwell’s Last Public Interview Contains A Terrifying Warning Of The Future…
(04-08-2021 10:29 AM)smudge12 Wrote:  
(04-08-2021 10:14 AM)Danforth Wrote:  Wow thanks for the information. I never really researched the guy and I never read his famous book either.

While I can't speak for Orwell, he'd probably have had issues with Trumpism, the American mainstream media, and things like "cancel-culture" or the recent Georgia voting laws.

Conservatives like to say "Orwell warned again socialism" while liberals like to say "But Orwell was a socialist!" The messaging of his writing is a lot more layered than that. He certainly had valid criticisms about socialism but didn't think socialism = authoritarianism.

I was never really a Trump fan but I just don't get all the doom and gloom from the political people around here.

It's like everything is the end of the world.
04-08-2021 10:32 AM
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bearcat65 Offline
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RE: George Orwell’s Last Public Interview Contains A Terrifying Warning Of The Future…
(04-08-2021 10:11 AM)smudge12 Wrote:  
(04-08-2021 10:00 AM)bearcat65 Wrote:  
(04-08-2021 09:49 AM)Danforth Wrote:  Why do Conservatives love Orwell so much?

Because he showed the fallacy of socialism is such a way that only a simpleton or leftist could not understand it.

Orwell wasn't against any particular economic system, but he was against totalitarianism and authoritarianism (specifically Stalinism).

He was a democratic socialist - in the context of his era - and even fought with the Marxist POUM during the Spanish Civil War (which he writes about in "Homage to Catalonia"). The Mi5 kept close tabs on him for being a suspected communist, which is exactly the type of authoritarianism he warns about.

His writings aren't warnings about socialism though.

He might not have meant them to be but they were regardless.
04-08-2021 10:37 AM
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smudge12 Offline
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RE: George Orwell’s Last Public Interview Contains A Terrifying Warning Of The Future…
(04-08-2021 10:37 AM)bearcat65 Wrote:  
(04-08-2021 10:11 AM)smudge12 Wrote:  
(04-08-2021 10:00 AM)bearcat65 Wrote:  
(04-08-2021 09:49 AM)Danforth Wrote:  Why do Conservatives love Orwell so much?

Because he showed the fallacy of socialism is such a way that only a simpleton or leftist could not understand it.

Orwell wasn't against any particular economic system, but he was against totalitarianism and authoritarianism (specifically Stalinism).

He was a democratic socialist - in the context of his era - and even fought with the Marxist POUM during the Spanish Civil War (which he writes about in "Homage to Catalonia"). The Mi5 kept close tabs on him for being a suspected communist, which is exactly the type of authoritarianism he warns about.

His writings aren't warnings about socialism though.

He might not have meant them to be but they were regardless.

Everyone can get whatever they want from books, but Orwell is clearly - from his own writings - against authoritarianism, not socialism. Different forms of authoritarianism can (and have) happened under any economic system and he understood that.

Conservatives: "Orwell warns about liberalism and socialism."
Liberals: "Orwell warns against conservatism and Trumpism."

Both points can be somewhat right, somewhat wrong, but they mostly miss Orwell's message of anti-authoritarianism.

Anyways, that's my take and don't have much else to add.
(This post was last modified: 04-08-2021 10:50 AM by smudge12.)
04-08-2021 10:47 AM
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RE: George Orwell’s Last Public Interview Contains A Terrifying Warning Of The Future…
(04-08-2021 10:47 AM)smudge12 Wrote:  Both points can be somewhat right, somewhat wrong, but they mostly miss Orwell's message of anti-authoritarianism.

Orwell opposed authoritarianism in any form. He was a socialist because he believed the myth that socialism truly gives power to the people instead of to the government. But here's the problem with that. Massive income and wealth transfers don't work because people don't like to give up what they earned and rightfully consider to be theirs to a bunch of deadbeats. So you need a strong government, backed by somebody like the SS or KGB, to implement socialism.

OK, I expect you to counter with the Nordic countries or other examples of "European socialism." But they aren't socialist. Their systems are build around capitalism with an extensive safety net, not around massive redistribution of income or wealth. Yes, Sweden has a top individual tax rate of 60%, but they start at 35% and their middle class pays 55%, while corporations pay only 22%. So if you are an entrepreneur, you incorporate your business, take out only what you need to live, and grow your wealth inside the corporation--just like Americans used to do when the top individual rate was 91% and the corporate rate was 52%. Those middle class folks paying 55% basically get that much back in services--education, health care, child care, you name it. And remember, a substantial portion of their tax revenues come from consumption taxes (VAT/GST) which are inherently regressive. So by any measure, their tax system is way more regressive than ours. It's just a different model, but fundamentally way more capitalist than socialist.
(This post was last modified: 04-08-2021 11:03 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
04-08-2021 11:03 AM
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smudge12 Offline
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RE: George Orwell’s Last Public Interview Contains A Terrifying Warning Of The Future…
Why would I counter your point? Personally, I believe in mixed economies, but I am not the King of America either.

My fundamental loyalty is to democracy, not any economic model or certain individual(s).
04-08-2021 11:15 AM
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RE: George Orwell’s Last Public Interview Contains A Terrifying Warning Of The Future…
(04-08-2021 11:03 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-08-2021 10:47 AM)smudge12 Wrote:  Both points can be somewhat right, somewhat wrong, but they mostly miss Orwell's message of anti-authoritarianism.

Orwell opposed authoritarianism in any form. He was a socialist because he believed the myth that socialism truly gives power to the people instead of to the government. But here's the problem with that. Massive income and wealth transfers don't work because people don't like to give up what they earned and rightfully consider to be theirs to a bunch of deadbeats. So you need a strong government, backed by somebody like the SS or KGB, to implement socialism.

OK, I expect you to counter with the Nordic countries or other examples of "European socialism." But they aren't socialist. Their systems are build around capitalism with an extensive safety net, not around massive redistribution of income or wealth. Yes, Sweden has a top individual tax rate of 60%, but they start at 35% and their middle class pays 55%, while corporations pay only 22%. So if you are an entrepreneur, you incorporate your business, take out only what you need to live, and grow your wealth inside the corporation--just like Americans used to do when the top individual rate was 91% and the corporate rate was 52%. Those middle class folks paying 55% basically get that much back in services--education, health care, child care, you name it. And remember, a substantial portion of their tax revenues come from consumption taxes (VAT/GST) which are inherently regressive. So by any measure, their tax system is way more regressive than ours. It's just a different model, but fundamentally way more capitalist than socialist.

Okay then why not just be like Sweden then?
04-08-2021 11:56 AM
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RE: George Orwell’s Last Public Interview Contains A Terrifying Warning Of The Future…
(04-08-2021 11:56 AM)Danforth Wrote:  Okay then why not just be like Sweden then?

Well, I for one would prefer Sweden to the socialist/communist/redistributionist vision espoused by the likes of Berne, AOC, and Liz Warren.

But what I would prefer is to take some lessons from the European experience:
- National consumption tax (VAT/GST)
- Lower, flatter, and broader (fewer or no non-business deductions/exclusions) income taxes
- Bismarck universal private health care/insurance
- Universal basis income (UBI) based on Milton Friedman's Negative Income Tax (NIT) or the Boortz-Linder prebate/prefund, which is basically the NIT in a consumption tax paradigm
04-08-2021 12:43 PM
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RE: George Orwell’s Last Public Interview Contains A Terrifying Warning Of The Future…
(04-08-2021 11:56 AM)Danforth Wrote:  
(04-08-2021 11:03 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-08-2021 10:47 AM)smudge12 Wrote:  Both points can be somewhat right, somewhat wrong, but they mostly miss Orwell's message of anti-authoritarianism.

Orwell opposed authoritarianism in any form. He was a socialist because he believed the myth that socialism truly gives power to the people instead of to the government. But here's the problem with that. Massive income and wealth transfers don't work because people don't like to give up what they earned and rightfully consider to be theirs to a bunch of deadbeats. So you need a strong government, backed by somebody like the SS or KGB, to implement socialism.

OK, I expect you to counter with the Nordic countries or other examples of "European socialism." But they aren't socialist. Their systems are build around capitalism with an extensive safety net, not around massive redistribution of income or wealth. Yes, Sweden has a top individual tax rate of 60%, but they start at 35% and their middle class pays 55%, while corporations pay only 22%. So if you are an entrepreneur, you incorporate your business, take out only what you need to live, and grow your wealth inside the corporation--just like Americans used to do when the top individual rate was 91% and the corporate rate was 52%. Those middle class folks paying 55% basically get that much back in services--education, health care, child care, you name it. And remember, a substantial portion of their tax revenues come from consumption taxes (VAT/GST) which are inherently regressive. So by any measure, their tax system is way more regressive than ours. It's just a different model, but fundamentally way more capitalist than socialist.

Okay then why not just be like Sweden then?

For one, I don't think Sweden is giving their peoples hard earned money to despots who hate us. I'm sure even you're a Liberal you can understand that the practice of giving these countries their allowances is not advantageous to anyone except to the receiver. This country does NOT know how to spend our money, they think it's theirs (congresspeople). They spend our money like people receiving welfare, uncaring, because they didn't have to EARN it.
04-08-2021 01:37 PM
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Danforth Offline
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RE: George Orwell’s Last Public Interview Contains A Terrifying Warning Of The Future…
(04-08-2021 01:37 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  
(04-08-2021 11:56 AM)Danforth Wrote:  
(04-08-2021 11:03 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-08-2021 10:47 AM)smudge12 Wrote:  Both points can be somewhat right, somewhat wrong, but they mostly miss Orwell's message of anti-authoritarianism.

Orwell opposed authoritarianism in any form. He was a socialist because he believed the myth that socialism truly gives power to the people instead of to the government. But here's the problem with that. Massive income and wealth transfers don't work because people don't like to give up what they earned and rightfully consider to be theirs to a bunch of deadbeats. So you need a strong government, backed by somebody like the SS or KGB, to implement socialism.

OK, I expect you to counter with the Nordic countries or other examples of "European socialism." But they aren't socialist. Their systems are build around capitalism with an extensive safety net, not around massive redistribution of income or wealth. Yes, Sweden has a top individual tax rate of 60%, but they start at 35% and their middle class pays 55%, while corporations pay only 22%. So if you are an entrepreneur, you incorporate your business, take out only what you need to live, and grow your wealth inside the corporation--just like Americans used to do when the top individual rate was 91% and the corporate rate was 52%. Those middle class folks paying 55% basically get that much back in services--education, health care, child care, you name it. And remember, a substantial portion of their tax revenues come from consumption taxes (VAT/GST) which are inherently regressive. So by any measure, their tax system is way more regressive than ours. It's just a different model, but fundamentally way more capitalist than socialist.

Okay then why not just be like Sweden then?

For one, I don't think Sweden is giving their peoples hard earned money to despots who hate us. I'm sure even you're a Liberal you can understand that the practice of giving these countries their allowances is not advantageous to anyone except to the receiver. This country does NOT know how to spend our money, they think it's theirs (congresspeople). They spend our money like people receiving welfare, uncaring, because they didn't have to EARN it.

That's an excellent point. Sweden does not have the same obligations as we do.

That said, I still see some advantage to help promote democracies as a way to "buffer" ourselves from our enemies.

The bigger point I would like to make however is that Socialism in itself is no more dangerous as any other "ism" .


I think politicians do Americans a big disservice by making other forms of government out to be evil. No form of government is inherently evil. It's the people that are running the government that we need to worry about.
04-08-2021 02:24 PM
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