(04-06-2021 11:24 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  Gonzaga is fine in the WCC and will continue to challenge for national titles. It's a major to high-major program that is now as stable and nationally influential as just about any other. True, the WCC is not a big-time league. But that will not prevent the Zags from one day winning it all.

I do agree, however, that Gonzaga likely needs more powerful and athletic interior players. The program seemingly has never offered a sufficient number of those type players most seasons.

I do agree that there is no reason for Gonzaga to leave the WCC. The WCC is not playing a full round robin at Gonzaga's request and created the double bye system at their behest. They've added BYU and the NCAA is giving them #1 overall seeds with their current arrangements.

The WCC gets them games on ESPN and local TV without issue and is the perfect home for their non revenue sports.

Why leave when you are getting everything you want

(04-06-2021 11:24 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I do agree, however, that Gonzaga likely needs more powerful and athletic interior players. The program seemingly has never offered a sufficient number of those type players most seasons.

I think that team design is all on Few. It’s intentional. And it’s a hill he will die on. Maybe it’s no wonder Saint Mary’s serves as good rival to Gonzaga out there in the WCC, because they do what Gonzaga doesn’t. BYU at times, too.

(04-06-2021 10:16 AM)TDenverFan Wrote:  Gonzaga this year was bothered by the physical size and talent level of P5 teams.*

*Except for USC, Creighton, UVA, Iowa, Kansas, Auburn, and Oklahoma, who they all beat by double digits

Exactly. Just another attempt to discredit the Gonzaga basketball program.

(04-06-2021 09:38 AM)jgkojak Wrote:  So when is Gonzaga going to a real conference?

On the same day that Kansas moves to a conference where its football team can be competitive?

People who live in glass houses, etc., etc.

(04-06-2021 11:17 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I think it’s silly that people project Gonzaga’s record but finale flop on its conference. That in a “real conference,” this team would have been better prepared for last night’s assault or humbled by a few losses with a tougher walk. Those people clearly don’t watch this sport.

100%

I think it's perfectly fair to question the WCC until the day Gonzaga wins a national championship.

(04-06-2021 11:32 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(04-06-2021 11:24 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I do agree, however, that Gonzaga likely needs more powerful and athletic interior players. The program seemingly has never offered a sufficient number of those type players most seasons.

I think that team design is all on Few. It’s intentional. And it’s a hill he will die on. Maybe it’s no wonder Saint Mary’s serves as good rival to Gonzaga out there in the WCC, because they do what Gonzaga doesn’t. BYU at times, too.

Belmont's "team design" (as you note) is very intentional, too. The BU coaching staff recruits primarily big men who can dribble, pass and shoot. Powerful and rugged leapers and shot blockers with no ball skills are not targeted (not that those type players would be interested in playing at Belmont).

(04-06-2021 11:30 AM)solohawks Wrote:  

(04-06-2021 11:24 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  Gonzaga is fine in the WCC and will continue to challenge for national titles. It's a major to high-major program that is now as stable and nationally influential as just about any other. True, the WCC is not a big-time league. But that will not prevent the Zags from one day winning it all.

I do agree, however, that Gonzaga likely needs more powerful and athletic interior players. The program seemingly has never offered a sufficient number of those type players most seasons.

I do agree that there is no reason for Gonzaga to leave the WCC. The WCC is not playing a full round robin at Gonzaga's request and created the double bye system at their behest. They've added BYU and the NCAA is giving them #1 overall seeds with their current arrangements.

The WCC gets them games on ESPN and local TV without issue and is the perfect home for their non revenue sports.

Why leave when you are getting everything you want

Agree. Gonzaga can dominate the WCC and make that work to its favor.

If I were a Zags fan, there is only one conference to which I would be very pleased to see a move (though it makes no sense on most levels): the Big East.

If Gonzaga had a conference option that would be (a) *materially* better than the WCC and (b) was somewhat geographically palatable, they would have left already.

The problem is that such conference doesn’t exist.

The Pac-12 isn’t going to add them in any form.

The MWC might be marginally better on-the-court than the WCC on average, but it’s not consistently so much better (and in years like this one, is actually worse) that it’s not worth leaving the WCC where they’re trading like-minded schools for ones with football-related issues (such as conference realignment).

The Big East has like-minded schools, but it has BAD BAD BAD geography. It makes West Virginia in the Big 12 look like a short car ride. Even the best TV money can’t mask that type of horrible geography.

That being said, I don’t think that the strength or weakness of the WCC had anything to do whatsoever with Gonzaga’s loss last night. Gonzaga has made it to 2 national title games in the past 4 years and they’ll play anyone at any time in the non-conference schedule and they’re getting a top flight recruiting class to reload again next year. They’re a whole lot more consistent right now than the blue blood school of Kansas (who the OP supports). Plus, Baylor might have beaten any team of the past 25 years with the way that they played last night. They were scorching right out of the gate.

(04-06-2021 12:08 PM)schmolik Wrote:  I think it's perfectly fair to question the WCC until the day Gonzaga wins a national championship.

As opposed to the MWC, which has produced a lot of national champions. Oh, wait....

They can join the Big East if they move the campus to Detroit

Gonzaga is the envy of every mid-major basketball program in the country. They can get the best teams in the country to fly out to Spokane to play them. They could be in the Big Sky or the WAC or the Big West, it would not matter. As long as they can recruit and develop talent, they will be fine. They are already the Way-Too-Early choice as the No.1 team next season.

Gonzaga, UCLA 1-2 in Way-Too-Early Top 25 college basketball rankings for 2021-22
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basket...gs-2021-22

(04-06-2021 12:26 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  If Gonzaga had a conference option that would be (a) *materially* better than the WCC and (b) was somewhat geographically palatable, they would have left already.

The problem is that such conference doesn’t exist.

The Pac-12 isn’t going to add them in any form.

The MWC might be marginally better on-the-court than the WCC on average, but it’s not consistently so much better (and in years like this one, is actually worse) that it’s not worth leaving the WCC where they’re trading like-minded schools for ones with football-related issues (such as conference realignment).

The Big East has like-minded schools, but it has BAD BAD BAD geography. It makes West Virginia in the Big 12 look like a short car ride. Even the best TV money can’t mask that type of horrible geography.

That being said, I don’t think that the strength or weakness of the WCC had anything to do whatsoever with Gonzaga’s loss last night. Gonzaga has made it to 2 national title games in the past 4 years and they’ll play anyone at any time in the non-conference schedule and they’re getting a top flight recruiting class to reload again next year. They’re a whole lot more consistent right now than the blue blood school of Kansas (who the OP supports). Plus, Baylor might have beaten any team of the past 25 years with the way that they played last night. They were scorching right out of the gate.

Do you think Gonzaga with BYU would ever cobble together an olympic sports conference where members either don't play football or play it indy/elsehwere as they can best arrange?

Basically a power WCC with football schools?

(04-06-2021 11:58 AM)Wedge Wrote:  

(04-06-2021 09:38 AM)jgkojak Wrote:  So when is Gonzaga going to a real conference?

On the same day that Kansas moves to a conference where its football team can be competitive?

People who live in glass houses, etc., etc.

Indeed, this thread is dumb and Gonzaga's last two games had nothing to do with the opponents being P5. They played a challenging OOC and dominated it. The WCC is a decent conference. The bottom-line is that Baylor blew out everyone except Arkansas, and UCLA obviously gave several P5 teams trouble too. If Gonzaga had hit a few shots last night when they closed to within 9, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

This discussion could also go the other way.

What the hell is the excuse for schools like LMU, Pepperdine and Santa Clara? They are all in California, they all have beautiful campuses and a good academic profile, they all have access to California talent, they all are in the same spot that Gonzaga was in themselves back in the mid-90s.

Why the heck has LMU not made an NCAA tourney since the Hank Gathers era? Why are Pepperdine and Santa Clara always mediocre at best, why can't they at least get up to a St. Mary's level? Why hasn't Pacific maintained their level of success that they had in the Big West in the 2000s? What happened to San Diego, they had a couple good teams in the 2000s also?

At some point, the rest of the WCC needs to step up too. Right now it's only BYU and St. Mary's who have answered the bell. Some WCC schools (Portland) have much bigger barriers to success, but there are a number of WCC schools that aren't stepping up. They are taking the $$$ that Gonzaga earns them every March but they aren't growing their own programs with that $$$.

2000-2019 (First Four Games Excluded)

WCC (Not Counting Gonzaga):
BYU: 3 wins, 1 Sweet 16 (2011)
St. Mary's: 3 wins, 1 Sweet 16 (2010)
No one else won a game. Pacific made the 2013 Tournament as a Big West member
Total: 6 wins, 2 Sweet 16's

MWC:
San Diego State, 6 wins, 2 Sweet 16's (2011, 2014)
Nevada, 2 wins, 1 Sweet 16 (2018)
New Mexico, 2 wins
Colorado State, 1 win
Total: 11 wins, 3 Sweet 16's

Taking out Gonzaga, MWC teams made 25 NCAA appearances between 2000-19 while WCC teams made 10. Only four WCC teams (counting Gonzaga) made an NCAA appearance since 2010. Nine of 11 MWC teams have (only Air Force and San Jose State haven't).

If you go from 2000-2019, you'll see similar results. Only San Jose State hasn't made the NCAA's from the MWC while four out of ten WCC teams (Loyola Marymount, Santa Clara, San Francisco, and Portland) haven't made the tournament. There is no doubt to me the MWC is a stronger and deeper conference.

They are going to stay in the WCC indefinitely:

1. Big East is the perfect fit ... except the geography doesn't work.
2. Do not play football, do not fit the profile of Pac-12, so will never be invited
3. MWC would be more a sideways move than up. They explored it and decided it didn't do much, so passed
4. WCC has similar faith based institutions, and part of a network that fills seats with high achieving largely from Catholic HS in the West. Also the WCC has been sufficient to build a National Championship contending program, get the #1 overall seed. Credits are biased toward success, which directs more money to GU than any other non-major conference program.

For the foreseeable future isn't going anywhere.

If only Gonzaga were in Scranton instead of Spokane

(04-06-2021 01:33 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  Gonzaga is the envy of every mid-major basketball program in the country. They can get the best teams in the country to fly out to Spokane to play them. They could be in the Big Sky or the WAC or the Big West, it would not matter. As long as they can recruit and develop talent, they will be fine. They are already the Way-Too-Early choice as the No.1 team next season.

Gonzaga, UCLA 1-2 in Way-Too-Early Top 25 college basketball rankings for 2021-22
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basket...gs-2021-22

I would trust you are not suggesting Gonzaga is a "mid-major program," SoCalBobcat but, rather, that every current mid-major would like to elevate itself to major status the way Gonzaga has.

(04-06-2021 02:21 PM)schmolik Wrote:  2000-2019 (First Four Games Excluded)

WCC (Not Counting Gonzaga):
BYU: 3 wins, 1 Sweet 16 (2011)
St. Mary's: 3 wins, 1 Sweet 16 (2010)
No one else won a game. Pacific made the 2013 Tournament as a Big West member
Total: 6 wins, 2 Sweet 16's

MWC:
San Diego State, 6 wins, 2 Sweet 16's (2011, 2014)
Nevada, 2 wins, 1 Sweet 16 (2018)
New Mexico, 2 wins
Colorado State, 1 win
Total: 11 wins, 3 Sweet 16's

Taking out Gonzaga, MWC teams made 25 NCAA appearances between 2000-19 while WCC teams made 10. Only four WCC teams (counting Gonzaga) made an NCAA appearance since 2010. Nine of 11 MWC teams have (only Air Force and San Jose State haven't).

If you go from 2000-2019, you'll see similar results. Only San Jose State hasn't made the NCAA's from the MWC while four out of ten WCC teams (Loyola Marymount, Santa Clara, San Francisco, and Portland) haven't made the tournament. There is no doubt to me the MWC is a stronger and deeper conference.

What’s incorrect with this type of comparison is that If you take out Gonzaga ( assuming Gonzaga is not in the conference and dominating) then someone else would have won it potentially and number of schools going to ncaa could have been higher and potentially the number of wins. What happens if you take SDSU out of MWC at the same time when you take out Gonzaga? How would the comparison look?