(04-07-2021 11:02 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(04-07-2021 10:30 AM)SMUstang Wrote:  

(04-07-2021 09:30 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(04-07-2021 08:39 AM)SMUstang Wrote:  

(04-07-2021 03:34 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  This is a classic case of “Think like a university president” in the opposite direction. As we have established here, university presidents LOVE schools like Tulane: top academics, large endowment, great location, etc. I shake my head whenever I see criticism of their addition to the AAC. They got to present to the Big 12 as a potential addition a few years ago over several other AAC schools that were better athletically.

In contrast, university presidents hate *everything* about Liberty: the political stances of their administration, heavy reliance on online students (e.g. their student composition and marketing practices look more like a for-profit school that’s effectively a non-profit in name only), the discriminatory anti-LGBTQ+ honor code, etc. They’ll all play Liberty as a non-conference opponent (just like Pac-12 schools are fine with playing non-conference games with BYU), but they don’t want anything to do with a formal relationship with them. They didn’t get an invite to any FBS conference because of the issues that I’ve noted above and they’ve honestly looked worse on all of those issues even more over the past few years. (Whether or not people agree with Liberty’s stances is irrelevant here. The university president group is arguably the most progressive group of professionals that you’ll find anywhere, so a school with policy stances like Liberty is a non-starter.)

For people who believe that the Bible is the Word of God, and that Jesus Christ is his only son, the university president group’s stance is abhorrent.

You can still have a religious institution and not have outmoded discriminatory policies. Notre Dame and even Baylor are examples of this. If I’m a university president, I’m not associating my school with another institution that openly discriminates against a segment of my student population (including athletes). That’s 100% on Liberty.

I think sports (or university presidents) should stay out of politics and religion. And they have no business discriminating against an institution based on their religion. (The same goes for corporations too)

They’re not discriminating against Liberty based on their religion. Look at Notre Dame, Baylor and most of the Big East. The issue is that Liberty has an open (not even veiled) discriminatory policy against LGBTQ+ students. This is something that places like ND and Baylor *don’t* have even though they still adhere to their religious teachings. That’s not about politics or religion, but rather straight up discrimination. That has no place on society and people can’t hide behind a “religious freedom” argument to justify it. LIBERTY is the school that has chosen to take this type of stance, NOT the other universities. It’s completely on them that other conferences don’t want to associate with them, just as people with discriminatory viewpoints shouldn’t expect companies and institutions to hire them in positions of authority (or any positions at all). The world has irreversibly moved into this issue and if they want to think like a dinosaur, then they’ll be treated like a dinosaur.

Eh, I think history has shown that even within Christianity, different sects can have different beliefs about some things. For example, IIRC, Presbyterians believe that elective abortion is morally acceptable, whereas the Catholic church does not. In this case, Baylor and Notre Dame seem to have what we might call more liberal views on gay rights than does Liberty, but IMO Liberty's view on sexual conduct is rooted in their interpretation of the Bible, so it does have something to do with religion. Call it discrimination based on religion, IMO.

Also, given the political battles over the past decades over gay marriage, transgender athletes and many other issues involving LBGTQ rights, IMO these issues clearly are political, in the sense that they have been and are the subject of political debates, court cases, etc.

That said, I agree with your earlier posts about why many conferences and universities might not want to affiliate with Liberty. Administrators in academia tend to have very liberal views so are unlikely to want to affiliate with Liberty. And that's their decision to make.

(04-07-2021 01:58 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(04-07-2021 11:02 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(04-07-2021 10:30 AM)SMUstang Wrote:  

(04-07-2021 09:30 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(04-07-2021 08:39 AM)SMUstang Wrote:  For people who believe that the Bible is the Word of God, and that Jesus Christ is his only son, the university president group’s stance is abhorrent.

You can still have a religious institution and not have outmoded discriminatory policies. Notre Dame and even Baylor are examples of this. If I’m a university president, I’m not associating my school with another institution that openly discriminates against a segment of my student population (including athletes). That’s 100% on Liberty.

I think sports (or university presidents) should stay out of politics and religion. And they have no business discriminating against an institution based on their religion. (The same goes for corporations too)

They’re not discriminating against Liberty based on their religion. Look at Notre Dame, Baylor and most of the Big East. The issue is that Liberty has an open (not even veiled) discriminatory policy against LGBTQ+ students. This is something that places like ND and Baylor *don’t* have even though they still adhere to their religious teachings. That’s not about politics or religion, but rather straight up discrimination. That has no place on society and people can’t hide behind a “religious freedom” argument to justify it. LIBERTY is the school that has chosen to take this type of stance, NOT the other universities. It’s completely on them that other conferences don’t want to associate with them, just as people with discriminatory viewpoints shouldn’t expect companies and institutions to hire them in positions of authority (or any positions at all). The world has irreversibly moved into this issue and if they want to think like a dinosaur, then they’ll be treated like a dinosaur.

Eh, I think history has shown that even within Christianity, different sects can have different beliefs about some things. For example, IIRC, Presbyterians believe that elective abortion is morally acceptable, whereas the Catholic church does not. In this case, Baylor and Notre Dame seem have what we might call more liberal views on gay rights than does Liberty, but IMO Liberty's view is rooted in their interpretation of the Bible, so it does have something to do with religion.

Also, given the political battles over the past decades over gay marriage, transgender athletes and many other issues involving LBGTQ rights, I don't agree that these issues are non-political. IMO they clearly are political, in the sense that they have been and are the subject of political debates, etc.

That said, I agree with your earlier posts about why many conferences and universities might not want to affiliate with Liberty. Administrators in academia tend to have very liberal views on gay rights, so are unlikely to want to affiliate with Liberty. And that's their decision to make.

I think you're still missing the point here. It's less to do about liberalism/conservatism as it does academia itself. When you're pumping out 75-100K online diplomas and have a Biology professor that has published books refuting evolution in favor of creationism then you're not going to be taken seriously by your peers. In fact they won't even look at you as a peer. Call it elitism if you want but it's goes well beyond political stances.

It is odd watching others have a discussion about my alma mater without the Liberty perspective involved. Quo Vadis did a nice job of summarizing the Liberty take. Students who attend the school voluntarily agree to the rules of engagement. It is not like the school hides the honor code in some vault.

Yes, Jerry Jr. was a mess. Yes, he was kryptonite to other university presidents. Yes, the school still is cleaning up the mess he left behind. But he is gone and many of the bones of contention that were used for years to deny the school access to conferences have been removed. The LBGT+ community is not any less loved by Jesus than the fundies who founded the school. But we do take the concept of no sex outside of the bonds of marriage between a man and woman seriously. That means students of the opposite sex being involved in relations are held to the same standards as those of the same sex. I will acknowledge that leniency has grown over the years from when I was a student back in the '80s. But there is intentionality today to have a focus of compassion for the LGBT+ community in place of the condemnation of years gone by. As SMUstang referenced, we take Scripture seriously and believe the Bible spells out what God knows is best for all of us. It is from that perspective that we approach sexual standards at the school. Do those in our community fall short of God's standard in showing love and compassion from time to time? Absolutely.

And to my ODU poster friend in regard to the "diploma mill" concept as it relates to online education, don't hate the playa hate the game. I don't see conferences distancing themselves from Arizona State & Purdue right now. Everyone is doing their best to improve their online offerings. We got intot he game a decade before everyone else learned how to market it well. We still have just under 20k residential students in addition to the 80k online. I shouldn't have to point out that every school was essentailly online this past 12 months. The future is unfolding and I am proud of how my alma mater is positioned to manage it with the combination of online and an incredible rebuilt campus.

As for the AAC, did anyone see the latest Hoops & Helmets Rankings from College Football News? Remind me again why Liberty shouldn't be a serious candidate for the AAC. And wait until you start looking at the rankings in Olympic sports.

My biggest gripe with Liberty is that they discriminate and still rake in public monies. In the hundreds of millions and into the billion territory

https://www.propublica.org/article/liber...falwell-jr

Quote:By 2017, Liberty students were receiving more than $772 million in total aid from the Department of Education — nearly $100 million of it in the form of Pell grants and the rest in federal student loans. Among universities nationwide, it ranked sixth in federal aid.

Quote:Although some of that money went to textbooks and nontuition expenses, a vast majority of Liberty’s total revenue that year, which was just above $1 billion, came from taxpayer-funded sources.

Just to be clear, the students get the money and choose to use it for an education at Liberty. And when you are one of the largest universities in the country, it follows that a large chunk of student loans and grants are going to land in Lynchburg. Nothing nefarious to note here.

(04-07-2021 02:14 PM)SlyFox Wrote:  Just to be clear, the students get the money and choose to use it for an education at Liberty. And when you are one of the largest universities in the country, it follows that a large chunk of student loans and grants are going to land in Lynchburg. Nothing nefarious to note here.

You're right and I agree. Those numbers are presented that way (they are direct quotes) because the article is about how much money Liberty takes in and how little they spend on education/students. It's a good article and I encourage anyone to read it. No matter your opinion you'll leave knowing a little more.

No argument on that front. It should be noted that the school spent $1B on rebuilding the campus infrastructure and opening a medical school. I will also reiterate that Junior was a mess and he is gone.

(04-07-2021 02:08 PM)SlyFox Wrote:  And to my ODU poster friend in regard to the "diploma mill" concept as it relates to online education, don't hate the playa hate the game. I don't see conferences distancing themselves from Arizona State & Purdue right now. Everyone is doing their best to improve their online offerings. We got intot he game a decade before everyone else learned how to market it well. We still have just under 20k residential students in addition to the 80k online. I shouldn't have to point out that every school was essentailly online this past 12 months. The future is unfolding and I am proud of how my alma mater is positioned to manage it with the combination of online and an incredible rebuilt campus.

Most schools don't lower their admission standards for online students though and certainly don't have that high of enrollment and pretend like they can offer a quality education to all of them.

(04-07-2021 02:11 PM)Yosef Himself Wrote:  My biggest gripe with Liberty is that they discriminate and still rake in public monies. In the hundreds of millions and into the billion territory

https://www.propublica.org/article/liber...falwell-jr

Quote:By 2017, Liberty students were receiving more than $772 million in total aid from the Department of Education — nearly $100 million of it in the form of Pell grants and the rest in federal student loans. Among universities nationwide, it ranked sixth in federal aid.

Quote:Although some of that money went to textbooks and nontuition expenses, a vast majority of Liberty’s total revenue that year, which was just above $1 billion, came from taxpayer-funded sources.

Religious conservatives pay taxes too. So are you saying that we have to pay taxes to support education but then can’t use those federal dollars to attend private universities that support our religious worldview? That isn’t right!

(04-07-2021 02:20 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(04-07-2021 02:11 PM)Yosef Himself Wrote:  My biggest gripe with Liberty is that they discriminate and still rake in public monies. In the hundreds of millions and into the billion territory

https://www.propublica.org/article/liber...falwell-jr

Quote:By 2017, Liberty students were receiving more than $772 million in total aid from the Department of Education — nearly $100 million of it in the form of Pell grants and the rest in federal student loans. Among universities nationwide, it ranked sixth in federal aid.

Quote:Although some of that money went to textbooks and nontuition expenses, a vast majority of Liberty’s total revenue that year, which was just above $1 billion, came from taxpayer-funded sources.

Religious conservatives pay taxes too. So are you saying that we have to pay taxes to support education but then can’t use those federal dollars to attend private universities that support our religious worldview? That isn’t right!

Not saying you have to do anything. I'm saying I hate knowing some public tax dollars go to an institution that discriminates against a set of people for how they're born. That's my gripe.

(04-07-2021 02:33 PM)Yosef Himself Wrote:  

(04-07-2021 02:20 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(04-07-2021 02:11 PM)Yosef Himself Wrote:  My biggest gripe with Liberty is that they discriminate and still rake in public monies. In the hundreds of millions and into the billion territory

https://www.propublica.org/article/liber...falwell-jr

Quote:By 2017, Liberty students were receiving more than $772 million in total aid from the Department of Education — nearly $100 million of it in the form of Pell grants and the rest in federal student loans. Among universities nationwide, it ranked sixth in federal aid.

Quote:Although some of that money went to textbooks and nontuition expenses, a vast majority of Liberty’s total revenue that year, which was just above $1 billion, came from taxpayer-funded sources.

Religious conservatives pay taxes too. So are you saying that we have to pay taxes to support education but then can’t use those federal dollars to attend private universities that support our religious worldview? That isn’t right!

Not saying you have to do anything. I'm saying I hate knowing some public tax dollars go to an institution that discriminates against a set of people for how they're born. That's my gripe.

My view is that you are born either male or female. Period

Ok...

I would counter that there is no discrimination against a set of people for how they're born. Everyone is welcome to come to the school as long as they follow a set of guidelines that are applied equally across the board based on well established religious principles.

It is likely that it was lost in my rambling post but Liberty finished 4th overall among FBS schools for combined success in football and basketball this year in the Hoops & Helmets Rankings. 4th. Overall.

Fair enough. I just have an opinion that is different than yours. Not enough to continue to argue about a school I don't care about.


I would bet the AAC will get their 11 team waiver for as long as they want. Why drop a member?

[quote='Yosef Himself' pid='17372842' dateline='1617825830']
Fair enough. I just have an opinion that is different than yours. Not enough to continue to argue about a school I don't care about.


I would bet the AAC will get their 11 team waiver for as long as they want. Why drop a member?
[/quote

I'm not advocating kicking someone out of the conference. But if we lose one sometime in the next few years, it wouldn't be the end of the world.

(04-07-2021 02:07 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(04-07-2021 01:58 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(04-07-2021 11:02 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(04-07-2021 10:30 AM)SMUstang Wrote:  

(04-07-2021 09:30 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  You can still have a religious institution and not have outmoded discriminatory policies. Notre Dame and even Baylor are examples of this. If I’m a university president, I’m not associating my school with another institution that openly discriminates against a segment of my student population (including athletes). That’s 100% on Liberty.

I think sports (or university presidents) should stay out of politics and religion. And they have no business discriminating against an institution based on their religion. (The same goes for corporations too)

They’re not discriminating against Liberty based on their religion. Look at Notre Dame, Baylor and most of the Big East. The issue is that Liberty has an open (not even veiled) discriminatory policy against LGBTQ+ students. This is something that places like ND and Baylor *don’t* have even though they still adhere to their religious teachings. That’s not about politics or religion, but rather straight up discrimination. That has no place on society and people can’t hide behind a “religious freedom” argument to justify it. LIBERTY is the school that has chosen to take this type of stance, NOT the other universities. It’s completely on them that other conferences don’t want to associate with them, just as people with discriminatory viewpoints shouldn’t expect companies and institutions to hire them in positions of authority (or any positions at all). The world has irreversibly moved into this issue and if they want to think like a dinosaur, then they’ll be treated like a dinosaur.

Eh, I think history has shown that even within Christianity, different sects can have different beliefs about some things. For example, IIRC, Presbyterians believe that elective abortion is morally acceptable, whereas the Catholic church does not. In this case, Baylor and Notre Dame seem have what we might call more liberal views on gay rights than does Liberty, but IMO Liberty's view is rooted in their interpretation of the Bible, so it does have something to do with religion.

Also, given the political battles over the past decades over gay marriage, transgender athletes and many other issues involving LBGTQ rights, I don't agree that these issues are non-political. IMO they clearly are political, in the sense that they have been and are the subject of political debates, etc.

That said, I agree with your earlier posts about why many conferences and universities might not want to affiliate with Liberty. Administrators in academia tend to have very liberal views on gay rights, so are unlikely to want to affiliate with Liberty. And that's their decision to make.

I think you're still missing the point here. It's less to do about liberalism/conservatism as it does academia itself. When you're pumping out 75-100K online diplomas and have a Biology professor that has published books refuting evolution in favor of creationism then you're not going to be taken seriously by your peers. In fact they won't even look at you as a peer. Call it elitism if you want but it's goes well beyond political stances.

Um, I don't think I'm missing the point. Last time I checked, Liberty was accredited by SACS, which is the same agency that accredits Duke, North Carolina and the University of Virginia.

Now Liberty isn't in their class, it's US News ranking is in the 289 - 389 national university range, but that's the same range as schools like Louisiana-Lafayette, Texas State, Louisiana Tech, Western Kentucky, Georgia Southern and South Alabama, all schools that are in G5 conferences. Their academic profile is basically G5 level.

So ... Any animus towards Liberty among conference and universities probably does boil down to the liberal politics of the leaders of these other conferences and institutions rather than academic qualifications.

(04-07-2021 04:23 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(04-07-2021 02:07 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(04-07-2021 01:58 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(04-07-2021 11:02 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(04-07-2021 10:30 AM)SMUstang Wrote:  I think sports (or university presidents) should stay out of politics and religion. And they have no business discriminating against an institution based on their religion. (The same goes for corporations too)

They’re not discriminating against Liberty based on their religion. Look at Notre Dame, Baylor and most of the Big East. The issue is that Liberty has an open (not even veiled) discriminatory policy against LGBTQ+ students. This is something that places like ND and Baylor *don’t* have even though they still adhere to their religious teachings. That’s not about politics or religion, but rather straight up discrimination. That has no place on society and people can’t hide behind a “religious freedom” argument to justify it. LIBERTY is the school that has chosen to take this type of stance, NOT the other universities. It’s completely on them that other conferences don’t want to associate with them, just as people with discriminatory viewpoints shouldn’t expect companies and institutions to hire them in positions of authority (or any positions at all). The world has irreversibly moved into this issue and if they want to think like a dinosaur, then they’ll be treated like a dinosaur.

Eh, I think history has shown that even within Christianity, different sects can have different beliefs about some things. For example, IIRC, Presbyterians believe that elective abortion is morally acceptable, whereas the Catholic church does not. In this case, Baylor and Notre Dame seem have what we might call more liberal views on gay rights than does Liberty, but IMO Liberty's view is rooted in their interpretation of the Bible, so it does have something to do with religion.

Also, given the political battles over the past decades over gay marriage, transgender athletes and many other issues involving LBGTQ rights, I don't agree that these issues are non-political. IMO they clearly are political, in the sense that they have been and are the subject of political debates, etc.

That said, I agree with your earlier posts about why many conferences and universities might not want to affiliate with Liberty. Administrators in academia tend to have very liberal views on gay rights, so are unlikely to want to affiliate with Liberty. And that's their decision to make.

I think you're still missing the point here. It's less to do about liberalism/conservatism as it does academia itself. When you're pumping out 75-100K online diplomas and have a Biology professor that has published books refuting evolution in favor of creationism then you're not going to be taken seriously by your peers. In fact they won't even look at you as a peer. Call it elitism if you want but it's goes well beyond political stances.

Um, no, I don't think I'm missing the point. Last time I checked, Liberty was accredited by SACS, which is the same agency that accredits Duke, North Carolina and the University of Virginia.

Now Liberty isn't in their class, it's US News ranking is in the 289 - 389 national university range, but that's the same range as schools like Louisiana-Lafayette, Western Kentucky, Georgia Southern and South Alabama, all schools that are in G5 conferences.

So ... Any animus towards Liberty among conference and universities probably does boil down to the liberal politics of the leaders of these other conferences and institutions rather than academic qualifications.

So you think these are the measures that people that have spent their entire careers as academics use? US News rankings? That's a joke. 8/10 Liberty students only needed a high school equivalent and their check to clear to be accepted as their online program has little to no standards. It's a nonprofit Devry. Now each University plays a role and serves a niche and they're not all Ivy League schools but they all look down on Liberty, especially the online program which cheapens the degree and the entire University. In 10-20 years that may change as they've made a butt load of money and have poured it into their Lynchburg campus. But as long as creationism isn't restricted to their Divinity school they're not going to be taken seriously among other academics, is that a liberal stance? I would say not.

There are plenty of other schools with similar, non-selective standards—are those degree mills too or are you only a degree mill if you’re conservative, religious, and have low admissions requirements?

(04-07-2021 04:48 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  There are plenty of other schools with similar, non-selective standards—are those degree mills too or are you only a degree mill if you’re conservative, religious, and have low admissions requirements?

I don't think it's a degree mill because of their particular flavor of politics. I think might help explain why people consider it a degree mill:

https://www.propublica.org/article/liber...falwell-jr

Quote:Liberty’s ability to distance itself from for-profit colleges was especially notable given that, by several key metrics, it resembled them more closely than the private nonprofits it was grouped with. The rate of Liberty graduates who default on their loans within three years of graduating is 9.9 percent, several points higher than the average for nonprofit colleges, though still below that for for-profit colleges. Most striking, though, is how little the university spends on actual instruction. It does not report separate figures for spending on the online school and the traditional college. But according to its most recent figures, from 2016, the university reports spending only $2,609 on instruction per full-time equivalent student across both categories. That is a fraction of what traditional private universities spend (Notre Dame’s equivalent figure is $27,391) but also well behind even University of Phoenix, which spends more than $4,000 per student in many states. It is also behind other hybrid online-traditional nonprofit religious colleges like Ohio Christian University, which spends about $4,500. In 2013, according to an audited financial statement I obtained, Liberty received $749 million in tuition and fees but spent only $260 million on instruction, academic support and student services.

By 2016, Liberty’s net assets had crossed the $1.6 billion mark, up more than tenfold from a decade earlier. Thanks to its low spending on instruction, its net income was an astonishing $215 million on nearly $1 billion in revenue, according to its tax filing — making it one of the most lucrative nonprofits in the country, based simply on the difference between its operating revenue and expenses, in a league with some of the largest nonprofit hospital systems.

Liberty spends little on those they're educating all while spitting out grads that default more on loans.

(04-07-2021 04:48 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  There are plenty of other schools with similar, non-selective standards—are those degree mills too or are you only a degree mill if you’re conservative, religious, and have low admissions requirements?

Maybe. Which ones? The University of Phoenix is not conservative as far as I know and I have no problem calling them a degree mill. They're accredited by the same agency that accredits many Large State flagships. Also in the 298-389 US News category (for whatever that's worth).

High volume/practically zero admission standards? I the cap fits.