As we all know, most of the SEC and ACC were once in the SoCon until the SEC schools broke away in the early 30s. But what if no break away occurs?

The SEC continues as a 23 member athletic consortium.

In 1936, a group of non-members, Wake Forest, Davidson, Furman, Richmond, William & Mary, and the Citadel, form the Magnolia Conference. Through the 30s and 40s, some of the weaker SoCon schools jump to this private school league—VMI, Washington & Lee, and Sewanee. This ushers in an era of a 20 member league:

Maryland, UVA, VT, UNC, NC ST, Duke, Clemson, SC, GT, UGA, Florida, Auburn, Alabama, Tennessee, Vanderbilt, UK, Ole Miss, Miss St, LSU, and Tulane.

Being such a large conference, crowning a single champ would be difficult and thus the Sugar Bowl becomes the site where the Champion of the South is crowned in a match up between the two schools with the best conference record.

I venture to say the issues that caused GT to leave the SEC and SC to leave the ACC are negated—GT just refuses to schedule Alabama for a time and the SAT score legislation that left SC scorned never happens. I’m iffy if Tulane chooses to stay or if they go.

As far as scheduling goes, the SEC didn’t appear to set a standard number of games until the mid-70s and I imagine the same holds true here. Schools in the center of the footprint would tend to play more games while those on the edges—LSU, Tulane, Florida, Maryland, etc choose to play less in favor of OOC games.

I’m not sure how the 1989-1990 realignment and the Bowl Coalition/Alliance play out. I can see schools like Florida St, Miami, and Arkansas being desperate to join this group and schools like Texas and Texas A&M would certainly have an interest.

Maybe they expand; maybe they don’t.

I also have to wonder how the rest of college football would be impacted by a 20 member SEC. Is their pressure on the Big 10 to follow a similar mold and expand with Eastern Independents and/or the Big 8? Maybe the SWC and Big 8 are inclined to commit to a full or partial merger sooner?.

I think this is a fun one to consider. Feel free to offer your own thoughts on how all of this might have played out and what alignment would look like today had the SoCon remained intact.

Imagine the tv value of that group!

Tulane probably would have still de-emphasized athletics (gone to the Magnolia).

It’s hard to speculate because there has never been such a large conference.

(03-31-2021 04:43 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  Tulane probably would have still de-emphasized athletics (gone to the Magnolia).

It’s hard to speculate because there has never been such a large conference.

I wonder if they would consider 20 members sacred, as a nice round number, and feel compelled to replace the Green Wave, or if they’d be fine at 19 for a while.

I’d think they’d have to go to 20 eventually though.

(03-31-2021 01:28 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  As we all know, most of the SEC and ACC were once in the SoCon until the SEC schools broke away in the early 30s. But what if no break away occurs?

The SEC continues as a 23 member athletic consortium.

In 1936, a group of non-members, Wake Forest, Davidson, Furman, Richmond, William & Mary, and the Citadel, form the Magnolia Conference. Through the 30s and 40s, some of the weaker SoCon schools jump to this private school league—VMI, Washington & Lee, and Sewanee. This ushers in an era of a 20 member league:

Maryland, UVA, VT, UNC, NC ST, Duke, Clemson, SC, GT, UGA, Florida, Auburn, Alabama, Tennessee, Vanderbilt, UK, Ole Miss, Miss St, LSU, and Tulane.

Being such a large conference, crowning a single champ would be difficult and thus the Sugar Bowl becomes the site where the Champion of the South is crowned in a match up between the two schools with the best conference record.

I venture to say the issues that caused GT to leave the SEC and SC to leave the ACC are negated—GT just refuses to schedule Alabama for a time and the SAT score legislation that left SC scorned never happens. I’m iffy if Tulane chooses to stay or if they go.

As far as scheduling goes, the SEC didn’t appear to set a standard number of games until the mid-70s and I imagine the same holds true here. Schools in the center of the footprint would tend to play more games while those on the edges—LSU, Tulane, Florida, Maryland, etc choose to play less in favor of OOC games.

I’m not sure how the 1989-1990 realignment and the Bowl Coalition/Alliance play out. I can see schools like Florida St, Miami, and Arkansas being desperate to join this group and schools like Texas and Texas A&M would certainly have an interest.

Maybe they expand; maybe they don’t.

I also have to wonder how the rest of college football would be impacted by a 20 member SEC. Is their pressure on the Big 10 to follow a similar mold and expand with Eastern Independents and/or the Big 8? Maybe the SWC and Big 8 are inclined to commit to a full or partial merger sooner?.

I think this is a fun one to consider. Feel free to offer your own thoughts on how all of this might have played out and what alignment would look like today had the SoCon remained intact.

I'm not certain you can keep the Southern Conference together after WWII with the core ACC and SEC members but it would not have held together past the early 1960's because Duke was not going to recruit black kids to play football.

They and a few others would have left in the 60's over the 800 SAT rule. I think Duke, Maryland, Vandy, Tulane (if they are still in) UVa, and perhaps Florida and North Carolina might have pulled out at that time. Basketball mechanics would have been different with the Tournament staying in Atlanta instead of moving to Duke Indoor in Durham and Reynolds Coliseum in Raleigh.

If they do this in the mid 1960's, I suspect that you get Tulane, Vandy, Miami, Florida, UNC, Duke, UVa, and MD.

The SoCon being left with LSU, MSU. Ole Miss, Bama, Auburn, Tenn, UK, GT, UGa, Clemson, SC, NC State, and VT. FSU is their first add when expansion starts in the 80's.

It's hard to paper over the cultural differences at the time between the Deep South, Appalachian South, and the Tidewater South. There is no "solid South" even with regard to race and football as athletic ability eventually trumps all. If a half Martian, half transvestite could run for 3-5 touchdowns a game, Bama would choke back their societal qualms and find a way to put that kid on the football field because football is society to them.

The world would be a better place.

When does FSU join?

Statefan: so you see a Duke led revolt in the 60s?

The SEC base is going to want to keep the SAT requirements relatively low. If Duke wants higher standards I think they are going to be a very small minority—and they might be the only ones willing to die in that hill and leave for the Magnolia.

Maryland was often at odd with UNC and Duke on things, usually falling in the same camp as SC and Clemson. I don’t see Maryland joining the revolt. UNC and UVA—maybe.

If the SoCon loses Tulane and Duke that puts them at 18. That’s a little more manageable than 20.

(03-31-2021 06:17 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  When does FSU join?

Maybe the early 90s. I see that as a potential time where the strength of the SoCon might have attracted the mightiest of outsiders—Florida St, Texas A&M, and Texas.

I could see them doing 4 divisions of 6 and matching division winners in SoCon East and SoCon West title games. Per the terms of the NCAA legislation, as long as 6 schools played a round robin schedule among each other, the winner could advance to a title game.

With a point of divergence from our timeline in the 1930s or earlier, who's to say that Duke will act as it did in our 1960s, that there would be similar CCG rules as ours, etc.?

Anyway, for fun:

SoCon Eastern Division
Atlantic Subdivision: Duke, Maryland, NC State, North Carolina, Virginia, Virginia Tech
Southeast Subdivision: Clemson, Florida, Florida State, Georgia, Georgia Tech, South Carolina

SoCon Western Division
Central Subdivision: Auburn, Alabama, Kentucky, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Tennessee
Southwest Subdivision: Arkansas, LSU, Texas, Texas A&M, Tulane, Vanderbilt

(03-31-2021 06:42 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  With a point of divergence from our timeline in the 1930s or earlier, who's to say that Duke will act as it did in our 1960s, that there would be similar CCG rules as ours, etc.?

Anyway, for fun:

SoCon Eastern Division
Atlantic Subdivision: Duke, Maryland, NC State, North Carolina, Virginia, Virginia Tech
Southeast Subdivision: Clemson, Florida, Florida State, Georgia, Georgia Tech, South Carolina

SoCon Western Division
Central Subdivision: Auburn, Alabama, Kentucky, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Tennessee
Southwest Subdivision: Arkansas, LSU, Texas, Texas A&M, Tulane, Vanderbilt

Duke is still inclined to act snooty, but unlike the ACC, where they had an entourage willing to bend to their wishes, they’d be but one voice in a chorus.

Duke would have a private school league with friendly travel they could go join and they’d probably be amenable to Duke’s high SAT standards.

(03-31-2021 08:15 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(03-31-2021 06:42 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  With a point of divergence from our timeline in the 1930s or earlier, who's to say that Duke will act as it did in our 1960s, that there would be similar CCG rules as ours, etc.?

Anyway, for fun:

SoCon Eastern Division
Atlantic Subdivision: Duke, Maryland, NC State, North Carolina, Virginia, Virginia Tech
Southeast Subdivision: Clemson, Florida, Florida State, Georgia, Georgia Tech, South Carolina

SoCon Western Division
Central Subdivision: Auburn, Alabama, Kentucky, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Tennessee
Southwest Subdivision: Arkansas, LSU, Texas, Texas A&M, Tulane, Vanderbilt

Duke is still inclined to act snooty, but unlike the ACC, where they had an entourage willing to bend to their wishes, they’d be but one voice in a chorus.

Duke would have a private school league with friendly travel they could go join and they’d probably be amenable to Duke’s high SAT standards.

Virginia left the SoCon in 1936 because of the Graham Plan to prevent giving benefits to athletes unavailable to other students, MD, VMI, UVa, VPI and the Citadel were among the Sinful Seven who refused to lie about paying players to the NCAA despite the Sanity Code in 195O, and MD and Clemson refused to follow the SoCon ordered bowl ban in 1951. I think a split still happens, but let’s assume Virginia rejoins and Wake and the Citadel get in, so 26 teams. Sewanee and W&L drop down, but we add FSU so you’ve got 24 teams. Split them in 2 leagues which will later pilfer one another.

East League: MD, UK, UVa, VPI, VMI, Duke, UNC, Wake, NCSU, Clemson, S. Car, The Citadel
West League: GT, UGa, UF, FSU, Bama, Auburn, Vols, Vandy, Ole Miss, MSU, Tulane, LSU

I don’t think there is a Graham Plan in this timeline. That was a Duke/UNC policy if I’m not mistaken. I don’t see the SEC schools supporting it so it never goes into place. UVA stays happily in the fold.

I also don’t see the SEC wing letting in additional small schools. I think Duke is the last one to slip in.

(03-31-2021 05:08 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(03-31-2021 04:43 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  Tulane probably would have still de-emphasized athletics (gone to the Magnolia).

It’s hard to speculate because there has never been such a large conference.

I wonder if they would consider 20 members sacred, as a nice round number, and feel compelled to replace the Green Wave, or if they’d be fine at 19 for a while.

I’d think they’d have to go to 20 eventually though.

Remember it was Vanderbilt's President that first floated the "Magnolia" concept. I would think that they (Vanderbilt) would have to be included in that league also.

(04-01-2021 07:17 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(03-31-2021 05:08 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(03-31-2021 04:43 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  Tulane probably would have still de-emphasized athletics (gone to the Magnolia).

It’s hard to speculate because there has never been such a large conference.

I wonder if they would consider 20 members sacred, as a nice round number, and feel compelled to replace the Green Wave, or if they’d be fine at 19 for a while.

I’d think they’d have to go to 20 eventually though.

Remember it was Vanderbilt's President that first floated the "Magnolia" concept. I would think that they (Vanderbilt) would have to be included in that league also.

Was Vanderbilt the originator of that concept? When did it first get floated?

It’s actually kind of ironic if it was, seeing as how they stayed with all the big state schools

I prefer taco Tuesday to what if Wednesday

(04-01-2021 09:32 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  I prefer taco Tuesday to what if Wednesday

I too enjoy Taco Tuesday but it’s kind of hard to serve tacos on a message board.

(03-31-2021 06:25 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Statefan: so you see a Duke led revolt in the 60s?

The SEC base is going to want to keep the SAT requirements relatively low. If Duke wants higher standards I think they are going to be a very small minority—and they might be the only ones willing to die in that hill and leave for the Magnolia.

Maryland was often at odd with UNC and Duke on things, usually falling in the same camp as SC and Clemson. I don’t see Maryland joining the revolt. UNC and UVA—maybe.

If the SoCon loses Tulane and Duke that puts them at 18. That’s a little more manageable than 20.

Revolt is not the right word. Duke's faculty is not racist at the time it is mostly progressive, but Duke itself, which is still a plantation/textile mill, is a paternalistic entity that is so classicist that the classicism includes racism. Does this make sense? If Duke can't win, they do not want to play. By the mid 1960's it will apparent to Duke, UVa, and Vandy that to win against Bama, Clemson, MD, Auburn, and LSU you will need "ringers". Dumb kids, white or black, are difficult to hide at some of the schools so yes I think Duke leads an exit and carries Vandy and UVa with them. You kill two birds with one stone with the higher standards - you kick the race issue down the road, and you get rid of big time football.

College sports took the place of professional sports in the South until the 1960's. Washington, Durham, Atlanta, Nashville, New Orleans, Miami, etc., would have different relations with MD, UNC and Duke, GT, Vandy, Tulane, and Miami. This would have played a role as well.