(04-01-2021 05:42 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  GMU made far more sense, and still has more potential as a program than W&M. Bigger school in a bigger metro area.

And Richmond deserved it more than GMU and VCU? IMO, Richmond and W&M should move together.

I feel like I need to take a Bill Dazzle moment and disclose the fact I have connections to the city of Richmond and the College of William & Mary. Maybe I need to update my sig...

https://www.inquirer.com/college-sports/...10402.html


Third article in a series by the Philadelphia Inquirer / Mike Jensen on the City 6 programs. This looks at recruiting and the transfer portal.

The article provides examples of how the “get old and stay old” approach works in college basketball. Jay Wright and Tony Bennett have the new approach.

(04-01-2021 11:03 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(04-01-2021 05:42 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  GMU made far more sense, and still has more potential as a program than W&M. Bigger school in a bigger metro area.

And Richmond deserved it more than GMU and VCU? IMO, Richmond and W&M should move together.

I feel like I need to take a Bill Dazzle moment and disclose the fact I have connections to the city of Richmond and the College of William & Mary. Maybe I need to update my sig...

Well when Richmond moved to the A-10 that was before GMU's and VCU's Final Four and at the time they were the mid major that made the most noise in the NCAA Men's Tournament. In 1991, they became the first #15 seed to beat a #2 seed and that wasn't their only major upset.

(04-02-2021 07:26 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(04-01-2021 11:03 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(04-01-2021 05:42 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  GMU made far more sense, and still has more potential as a program than W&M. Bigger school in a bigger metro area.

And Richmond deserved it more than GMU and VCU? IMO, Richmond and W&M should move together.

I feel like I need to take a Bill Dazzle moment and disclose the fact I have connections to the city of Richmond and the College of William & Mary. Maybe I need to update my sig...

Well when Richmond moved to the A-10 that was before GMU's and VCU's Final Four and at the time they were the mid major that made the most noise in the NCAA Men's Tournament. In 1991, they became the first #15 seed to beat a #2 seed and that wasn't their only major upset.

It also occurred when the A10 still sponsored football. If W&M came along as well then the conference could have continued sponsoring football. Maybe even Fordham joins now that they offer scholarships.

I've expressed my dislike for football on this board. I'd have to say Temple was one of the schools if not the school most hurt by the larger emphasis towards football and away from men's basketball. Cincinnati got screwed but at least they got to play in the old Big East with the big boys for several years. So did Connecticut. Temple has never been in a big time men's basketball conference.

The football conferences then decimated the Big East (yes it is somewhat of a factor in men's basketball but it has no Syracuse or Pittsburgh and Connecticut isn't the same UConn that won all those national championships). Then the Big East then swallowed up the Atlantic 10 and the Atlantic 10 the Colonial and so on and you can see why all of the Philadelphia area schools have suffered with the exception of Villanova which surprisingly thrived despite the Big East being raided (they took full advantage of the situation).

How much has the Atlantic 10 changed?

It's 1991. I was a senior in high school. Temple made its second Elite 8 in four seasons under John Chaney, who died this past year (RIP). The Atlantic 10 Tournament that year was won by ... Penn State. Penn State entered the NCAA's as a #13 seed and shocked UCLA in the 1st round. The Atlantic 10 in order of regular season men's basketball records:

Rutgers (yes!), Temple, Penn State, George Washington, Massachusetts, West Virginia, Duquesne, St. Joseph's, Rhode Island, St. Bonaventure

How did Duquesne actually finish 7th that year? That must be the best finish they have in the A-10!

It's 1996. John Calipari was head coach of UMass. They go all the way to the Final Four. I believe it's the last time an A-10 team has ever been to the Final Four. The A-10 is quite different than the A-10 in 1991. Here is the alignment.

East: UMass, Temple, St. Joseph's, Rhode Island, St. Bonaventure, Fordham
West: Virginia Tech, George Washington, Xavier, Dayton, Duquesne, LaSalle

It's 2004. St. Joseph's is the talk of the nation with Jameer Nelson leading the Hawks to a #1 seed. They fall one game short of the Final Four. By then, Virginia Tech had left the A-10 for the Big East and then the ACC. Richmond had taken their place.

I probably liked the A-10 more when Temple was in it and St. Joe's was better. I never really was much of a LaSalle fan. I would think the A-10 misses Temple the most and Xavier 2nd most. Sure Penn State's a name but they weren't too good in men's basketball. The A-10 men's Tournament used to be in Philly a lot but pretty shortly after I moved here they left and they've never come back (I was able to see the A-10 Tournament in Atlantic City once). Of course the Big East won't consider coming here and neither will the CAA.

Unless you count Penn State, Philly has been more of a basketball city than a football city and when football towers over basketball Philly gets the short end of the stick. I'm just happy Villanova wasn't hurt by it like the other city schools (especially Temple) were.
Since 1991, 6 of 10 A-10 schools are still in the conference.
Since 1996, 9 of 12 A-10 schools are still in the conference.

(04-01-2021 11:03 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(04-01-2021 05:42 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  GMU made far more sense, and still has more potential as a program than W&M. Bigger school in a bigger metro area.

And Richmond deserved it more than GMU and VCU? IMO, Richmond and W&M should move together.

I feel like I need to take a Bill Dazzle moment and disclose the fact I have connections to the city of Richmond and the College of William & Mary. Maybe I need to update my sig...

In my ideal world...JMU, Richmond, W&M and Old Dominion should be in the same athletic conference. They all seemed to have comparable athletic programs.

I always accepted that ODU had an itch for the FBS...it’s hard not to be enticed by the potential glory (even if G5 results in a money pit). Richmond’s move to the A10 appeared as a classic privileged-monied-elite thing...they could work the system to their advantage and they did. Richmond was more depended on out-of-state students and the old CAA was too Virginia-based.

If those four had been able to stick together, their athletics could all have been better. Plus the Colonial would make more sense.

(04-02-2021 08:27 AM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(04-01-2021 11:03 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(04-01-2021 05:42 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  GMU made far more sense, and still has more potential as a program than W&M. Bigger school in a bigger metro area.

And Richmond deserved it more than GMU and VCU? IMO, Richmond and W&M should move together.

I feel like I need to take a Bill Dazzle moment and disclose the fact I have connections to the city of Richmond and the College of William & Mary. Maybe I need to update my sig...

In my ideal world...JMU, Richmond, W&M and Old Dominion should be in the same athletic conference. They all seemed to have comparable athletic programs.

I always accepted that ODU had an itch for the FBS...it’s hard not to be enticed by the potential glory (even if G5 results in a money pit). Richmond’s move to the A10 appeared as a classic privileged-monied-elite thing...they could work the system to their advantage and they did. Richmond was more depended on out-of-state students and the old CAA was too Virginia-based.

If those four had been able to stick together, their athletics could all have been better. Plus the Colonial would make more sense.

There was a ton of talk about a merger of some sorts between the SoCon and CAA in the early 2000’s. Maybe it was a raid? I want to say it involved Richmond and W&M rejoining the SoCon for all-sports. VMI was there and so were Davidson, App St., Furman, and the Citadel so it would have been a cool reunion. Then Richmond received an A10 invite and poof, up in smoke.

(04-01-2021 10:59 PM)esayem Wrote:  I was skeptical of the Holy Cross invite for some time. I guess UConn got their spot though. It must have been a behind closed doors denial.

Holy Cross basketball denied their way into irrelevance by declining the Big East and A10.

Holy Cross was always on the first list of schools, as was Connecticut. Dave Gavitt felt strongly that UConn was a "sleeping giant" even if the other AD's didn't quite understand this. Some sources say BC was the backup choice for Holy Cross, others that the two schools could have been added together.

In any event, Holy Cross president John Brooks S.J. would have none of it. He famously declared that his college "was not in the entertainment business" and turned down the offer. He began to deemphasize what was still a I-A football program at Holy Cross and basketball followed.

(04-01-2021 09:52 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(03-31-2021 08:07 AM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  I was surprised to learn that Temple was originally invited to the Big East, prior to Villanova’s admission. Temple AD’s need to align with JoPa/Penn State for football in the late 1970s had a huge impact. They were really in the same boat as Rutgers and Holy Cross.

Not true. Nor was St. Joe's, who has also claimed as such.

Original invitees:

Charter schools:
1. Providence
2. Georgetown
3. Syracuse
4. St. John's

Invited:
5. Boston College
6. Holy Cross, declined
7. Rutgers, declined
8. Seton Hall
9. Connecticut
10. Villanova, had to give the Eastern 8 one year's notice

None of the four AD's at the start (Gavitt, Rienzo, Crouthamel, Kaiser) ever discussed Temple as a invitee.

Hmmm. This article references that Temple was somehow engaged in the original discussions. It has quotes from a few athletic directors, including two who had relevant stints at Temple (Casale and Bradshaw). May just be further proof that recollections are not perfect, especially after 40+ years.

(04-02-2021 08:03 AM)schmolik Wrote:  I've expressed my dislike for football on this board. I'd have to say Temple was one of the schools if not the school most hurt by the larger emphasis towards football and away from men's basketball. Cincinnati got screwed but at least they got to play in the old Big East with the big boys for several years. So did Connecticut. Temple has never been in a big time men's basketball conference.

The football conferences then decimated the Big East (yes it is somewhat of a factor in men's basketball but it has no Syracuse or Pittsburgh and Connecticut isn't the same UConn that won all those national championships). Then the Big East then swallowed up the Atlantic 10 and the Atlantic 10 the Colonial and so on and you can see why all of the Philadelphia area schools have suffered with the exception of Villanova which surprisingly thrived despite the Big East being raided (they took full advantage of the situation).

How much has the Atlantic 10 changed?

It's 1991. I was a senior in high school. Temple made its second Elite 8 in four seasons under John Chaney, who died this past year (RIP). The Atlantic 10 Tournament that year was won by ... Penn State. Penn State entered the NCAA's as a #13 seed and shocked UCLA in the 1st round. The Atlantic 10 in order of regular season men's basketball records:

Rutgers (yes!), Temple, Penn State, George Washington, Massachusetts, West Virginia, Duquesne, St. Joseph's, Rhode Island, St. Bonaventure

How did Duquesne actually finish 7th that year? That must be the best finish they have in the A-10!

It's 1996. John Calipari was head coach of UMass. They go all the way to the Final Four. I believe it's the last time an A-10 team has ever been to the Final Four. The A-10 is quite different than the A-10 in 1991. Here is the alignment.

East: UMass, Temple, St. Joseph's, Rhode Island, St. Bonaventure, Fordham
West: Virginia Tech, George Washington, Xavier, Dayton, Duquesne, LaSalle

It's 2004. St. Joseph's is the talk of the nation with Jameer Nelson leading the Hawks to a #1 seed. They fall one game short of the Final Four. By then, Virginia Tech had left the A-10 for the Big East and then the ACC. Richmond had taken their place.

I probably liked the A-10 more when Temple was in it and St. Joe's was better. I never really was much of a LaSalle fan. I would think the A-10 misses Temple the most and Xavier 2nd most. Sure Penn State's a name but they weren't too good in men's basketball. The A-10 men's Tournament used to be in Philly a lot but pretty shortly after I moved here they left and they've never come back (I was able to see the A-10 Tournament in Atlantic City once). Of course the Big East won't consider coming here and neither will the CAA.

Unless you count Penn State, Philly has been more of a basketball city than a football city and when football towers over basketball Philly gets the short end of the stick. I'm just happy Villanova wasn't hurt by it like the other city schools (especially Temple) were.
Since 1991, 6 of 10 A-10 schools are still in the conference.
Since 1996, 9 of 12 A-10 schools are still in the conference.

Where do you think Temple would be competitively and conference affiliation wise had they chose to disband football or move to D1-AA in the early 80s when Villanova did?

Here's the Colonial that Drexel joined in 2002 (in order of seeds in that year's CAA Tournament)

UNC Wilmington (champion), George Mason, Virginia Commonwealth, Drexel, Delaware, Old Dominion, Towson, William & Mary, James Madison, Hofstra

Here's the America East that Drexel left in 2001 (in order of seeds in that year's AE Tournament)

Hofstra (champion), Delaware, Drexel, Maine, Boston U, Northeastern, Towson, Vermont, New Hampshire, Hartford

The 2001 Hofstra team was coached by some guy named Jay Wright.

Drexel (and Delaware, Hofstra, and Towson) couldn't have known GMU and VCU would have made Final Four runs and would have left for the A-10 when they left for the CAA in 2002. Was it the right move? They went south instead of north. In the AE, they were as far south as Baltimore (Towson). With the Colonial, they picked up DC (GMU), Richmond (VCU), and Wilmington NC (UNCW). Five of the CAA's teams were in Virginia and for years the CAA Tournament was always in Richmond. In the last year Drexel was in the America East, six of the teams were in New England. But the tournament that year was at Delaware except for the championship which was hosted by Hofstra since they were the top seed. Is a New England centered conference any better than a Virginia centered conference? But at least Drexel would have a chance to host the championship game (they did 1994-1996 and won all three years). I would want Drexel in a Philly centered conference or maybe a New York City centered conference. The problem is no such conference exists.

(04-02-2021 08:03 AM)schmolik Wrote:  (yes it is somewhat of a factor in men's basketball but it has no Syracuse or Pittsburgh

Sure it does, the Big East has several perennial bubble teams and a DePaul.

(04-02-2021 09:40 AM)schmolik Wrote:  Here's the Colonial that Drexel joined in 2002 (in order of seeds in that year's CAA Tournament)

UNC Wilmington (champion), George Mason, Virginia Commonwealth, Drexel, Delaware, Old Dominion, Towson, William & Mary, James Madison, Hofstra

Here's the America East that Drexel left in 2001 (in order of seeds in that year's AE Tournament)

Hofstra (champion), Delaware, Drexel, Maine, Boston U, Northeastern, Towson, Vermont, New Hampshire, Hartford

The 2001 Hofstra team was coached by some guy named Jay Wright.

Drexel (and Delaware, Hofstra, and Towson) couldn't have known GMU and VCU would have made Final Four runs and would have left for the A-10 when they left for the CAA in 2002. Was it the right move? They went south instead of north. In the AE, they were as far south as Baltimore (Towson). With the Colonial, they picked up DC (GMU), Richmond (VCU), and Wilmington NC (UNCW). Five of the CAA's teams were in Virginia and for years the CAA Tournament was always in Richmond. In the last year Drexel was in the America East, six of the teams were in New England. But the tournament that year was at Delaware except for the championship which was hosted by Hofstra since they were the top seed. Is a New England centered conference any better than a Virginia centered conference? But at least Drexel would have a chance to host the championship game (they did 1994-1996 and won all three years). I would want Drexel in a Philly centered conference or maybe a New York City centered conference. The problem is no such conference exists.

The CAA was/is the best achievable conference for Drexel. As I mentioned previously Drexel is always going to try to be aligned with Delaware which is why they moved to the CAA. Delaware was the one school among the AE leavers that could have joined the A10. The A10 was prepared to invite UD when Rutgers and WVU left, but UD’s administration thought that the A10 was beneath them institutionally because its members accepted Prop 48 athletes.

(04-02-2021 09:19 AM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  Hmmm. This article references that Temple was somehow engaged in the original discussions. It has quotes from a few athletic directors, including two who had relevant stints at Temple (Casale and Bradshaw). May just be further proof that recollections are not perfect, especially after 40+ years.

It's well established that the only AD's in the original discussions were at Providence, Georgetown, Syracuse, and St. John's. They met quietly at LaGuardia Airport over a number of weeks before word got out.

(04-02-2021 02:41 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 09:19 AM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  Hmmm. This article references that Temple was somehow engaged in the original discussions. It has quotes from a few athletic directors, including two who had relevant stints at Temple (Casale and Bradshaw). May just be further proof that recollections are not perfect, especially after 40+ years.

It's well established that the only AD's in the original discussions were at Providence, Georgetown, Syracuse, and St. John's. They met quietly at LaGuardia Airport over a number of weeks before word got out.

The Big East. The original "airport" conference:)

(04-01-2021 02:53 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(04-01-2021 02:14 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(04-01-2021 01:45 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  The CAA is just an odd conference. When people take a look at it they usually come to the conclusion that the conference doesn't make too much sense as is, but none of the members really have a more viable option at the moment.

It truly is.

It’s an odd combination of schools who don’t quite have academics to be in the Patriot League, but also don’t have the athletic prowess to be in the A-10, but none the less, count themselves to be the academic and athletic superiors of more regional conferences: the MAAC, NEC, and America East in the North and the SoCon and Big South in the South.

I don’t understand the dislike of the CAA. The CAA prioritizes football. The A10 is focused on basketball. The Patriot is following the Ivy D1 model...were sports are funded, but only within strict limits. The three conferences have different missions in overlapping geography.

Comparing institutional academics to the Patriot, William & Mary and Northeastern are very selective...more so than most Patriot schools. JMU and Elon are also very strong. The Patriot has a homogeneous profile (small private universities), but it does not have across the board higher academic standards.

Because high-level FCS football is more difficult (than basketball) to manage, the CAA has a much more diverse profile and more transient members. They allow football-only (Richmond, Villanova, Stony Brook) members. They allow non-football (Drexel) members that have rivalries with core members (Delaware). For the core schools (JMU, W&M, Delaware and Towson), the conference makes sense...they’re just trying to find like minded institutions.

If offered a choice about where to affiliate, one would think a mid-major AD charged with generating revenue for/overseeing the costs of FCS football would think long and hard about whether to affiliate in a basketball league with schools that don't sponsor football. The benefits of such an association would have to be plentiful as the basketball schools can skew resources to a single flagship athletic program. Recent CAA conference champions (and those in the upper echelon of the conference year over year) reflect a pattern -- Northeastern, Hofstra, Charleston, UNCW, and Drexel tend to succeed more than the football schools.

The benefits for an FCS football school for associating with today's basketball only CAA programs are unclear. Since the departure of ODU, VCU, Richmond, and GMU, the CAA is a one bid league that might net a 14 seed with its tournament champion, and in recent history has offered no opportunities for in-conference signature wins. Charleston's recent coaching hire may prove to be inspired and could easily result in strengthening the league. It won't make it any easier for a football school to win in basketball.

Plenty of Wm & Mary fans and evidently College leadership are fond of the CAA. I still think using "CAA" and "makes sense" in a sentence, and keeping a straight face is difficult, partly due to the reasons above, but also for other reasons. The football footprint stretches from Orono, Maine, to Burlington, NC. The basketball/Olympic sports footprint stretches from Boston to Charleston. The CAA is a league that doesn't generate appreciable media revenue to offset these costs. In fact, even those fans who argue the CAA is a good fit hold the conference's media deal in disdain.

The enrollment disparity is large -- multiple schools are 20,000 plus in size and a couple are in the 7,000 - 8,500 range. Because student activity fees comprise so much of athletic budgets at this level, this is an issue. Entrance requirements range from stringent to not so much. Even the CAA Commissioner has admitted "trying to nail down what makes a CAA school" is a tricky question.

https://www.extrapointsmb.com/p/a-confer...oads-where

It seems as if the biggest things the CAA has going for it are some perceived legacy stature stemming from success when membership included schools that have departed for the A-10, and inertia. There is probably a willingness to cut Olympic sports. There is a hope for more in the way of donations. There evidently is genuine fear of asking the NCAA for flexibility on the auto-bid rule as a means of more logical affiliations while schools are financially strapped.

https://www.inquirer.com/college-sports/...10404.html

Last of a series of articles for Philly’s college sports. This one looks at reinvigorating Big 5 basketball by 1) replacing the current 4-game per team round robin format with a tournament and 2) inviting Drexel to the party.

As someone who used to sneak-in to Big 5 games (when I was in grad school at Penn in the mid 1980s), the intercity rivalries have lost a lot of luster over the past many decades. This proposal makes a lot of sense.

(04-05-2021 03:29 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  https://www.inquirer.com/college-sports/...10404.html

Last of a series of articles for Philly’s college sports. This one looks at reinvigorating Big 5 basketball by 1) replacing the current 4-game per team round robin format with a tournament and 2) inviting Drexel to the party.

As someone who used to sneak-in to Big 5 games (when I was in grad school at Penn in the mid 1980s), the intercity rivalries have lost a lot of luster over the past many decades. This proposal makes a lot of sense.

I remember they used to have the six schools all play at the Palestra on a given Saturday with a doubleheader in the afternoon and a single game at night and I went to the doubleheader.