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Conference Alignment for Philly Schools
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schmolik Online
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Post: #21
RE: Conference Alignment for Philly Schools
(03-31-2021 05:51 PM)mikeinsec127 Wrote:  The problem with the Paterno conference was an issue of revenue sharing. JPa wanted equal revenue sharing for all sports but football. That revenue would be split according to home attendance. Even then State Penn had a stadium far larger than the other schools. That is why BC, Cuse and eventually Pitt accepted the BE invites. Rutgers and Temple stuck with the Penn St plan until it was dead. By then it was too late to get back into the BE picture because the spots were offered to Seton Hall and Villanova.

Rutgers was able to eventually get into the Big East. Unfortunately Temple wasn't as lucky (well they were let in and then Villanova and the Catholic 7 left, kind of like when the cool kids invite you to the party and then 5 minutes after you get there leave)
03-31-2021 06:43 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Conference Alignment for Philly Schools
(03-31-2021 03:40 PM)LostInSpace Wrote:  Drexel fans may yearn for A10 membership but Drexel’s administration does not. Drexel wants to be in a conference with Delaware, Northeastern, Willam and Mary and Elon. A conference with Iona, Siena and Marist not so much. They know PL isn’t an option. Three of their ECC conference mates left them to form the PL.

I’m not so sure about that. There are quality peer/aspirants in the A10 for Drexel, like George Washington, Fordham, Richmond, Dayton, and Saint Louis. I agree that the academic link is important and CAA does provide that, but, I wouldn’t go that far about Drexel and the A10. It also wouldn’t surprise me that it isn’t so much Drexel getting dumped by Patriot League schools as much as wanting nothing to do with their non-scholarship (then)/academic index (now) ways. They sit right next to an Ivy school...why join a conference that has been such sheep to curry favor with some they already quasi-coexist? The attraction might be toward Lehigh and Boston, but, didn’t Drexel leave BU behind to go to CAA?

I doubt it would matter, though with the A10. There’s probably a hard “no” coming from LaSalle and St. Joe’s about them as long as they’re there.
04-01-2021 06:07 AM
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Wahoowa84 Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Conference Alignment for Philly Schools
Second article in the series about the Philly City 6 programs

https://www.inquirer.com/college-sports/...10401.html

A perspective on the facilities arms race. It’s fascinating how the accounting shows financial deficit spending, but each school is always planning capital enhancements.
04-01-2021 07:34 AM
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zibby Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Conference Alignment for Philly Schools
(03-31-2021 07:54 AM)esayem Wrote:  Also I think it’s funny Manhattan College is in the Bronx.

There's also a Manhattanville College, which is also not on Manhattan.
04-01-2021 07:54 AM
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Post: #25
RE: Conference Alignment for Philly Schools
(04-01-2021 06:07 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(03-31-2021 03:40 PM)LostInSpace Wrote:  Drexel fans may yearn for A10 membership but Drexel’s administration does not. Drexel wants to be in a conference with Delaware, Northeastern, Willam and Mary and Elon. A conference with Iona, Siena and Marist not so much. They know PL isn’t an option. Three of their ECC conference mates left them to form the PL.

I’m not so sure about that. There are quality peer/aspirants in the A10 for Drexel, like George Washington, Fordham, Richmond, Dayton, and Saint Louis. I agree that the academic link is important and CAA does provide that, but, I wouldn’t go that far about Drexel and the A10. It also wouldn’t surprise me that it isn’t so much Drexel getting dumped by Patriot League schools as much as wanting nothing to do with their non-scholarship (then)/academic index (now) ways. They sit right next to an Ivy school...why join a conference that has been such sheep to curry favor with some they already quasi-coexist? The attraction might be toward Lehigh and Boston, but, didn’t Drexel leave BU behind to go to CAA?

I doubt it would matter, though with the A10. There’s probably a hard “no” coming from LaSalle and St. Joe’s about them as long as they’re there.

Drexel doesn’t want to spend what it would cost to be competitive in the A10. The Philly schools wouldn’t have to veto. Drexel’s decision to keep the DAC and lease the Armory to US Squash rather than build a new arena is enough for A10 to collectively see Drexel as a hard no.
04-01-2021 10:00 AM
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random asian guy Online
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Post: #26
RE: Conference Alignment for Philly Schools
(03-31-2021 04:21 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  BC
Syracuse
Temple
Penn St
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
WVU

St John’s
Villanova
Georgetown

Would have made awesome Eastern conference.

Pretty good. And the Eastern conference can be expanded to something like this:

BC
Syracuse
Temple
Penn St
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
WVU
UConn
Miami
VT
Louisville
Cincy

St John’s
Villanova
Georgetown
ND

12 football and 16 basketball teams. Probably competitve in terms of revenue even in the current landscape
04-01-2021 11:43 AM
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Post: #27
RE: Conference Alignment for Philly Schools
(03-31-2021 07:54 AM)esayem Wrote:  St. Joe’s and LaSalle would be crazy to leave. They have a built-in recruiting pitch of playing in a superior league to the MAAC and CAA.

Too small for major conference athletics.

Could win more games in the MAAC than the A10.
04-01-2021 11:53 AM
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Wahoowa84 Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Conference Alignment for Philly Schools
(04-01-2021 11:53 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(03-31-2021 07:54 AM)esayem Wrote:  St. Joe’s and LaSalle would be crazy to leave. They have a built-in recruiting pitch of playing in a superior league to the MAAC and CAA.

Too small for major conference athletics.

Could win more games in the MAAC than the A10.

IMO, the A10 may have outgrown LaSalle. The large public schools (UMass, URI, GMU, VCU) and Catholic schools with rabid fans (Dayton, StLouis) are investing a lot more in athletics. The A10 also has schools with deep pockets (Davidson, GWU and Richmond).

I’m not sure that the Explorers can, or should try to, keep up with the A10’s upper tier.
04-01-2021 12:34 PM
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Post: #29
RE: Conference Alignment for Philly Schools
(04-01-2021 07:34 AM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  Second article in the series about the Philly City 6 programs

https://www.inquirer.com/college-sports/...10401.html

A perspective on the facilities arms race. It’s fascinating how the accounting shows financial deficit spending, but each school is always planning capital enhancements.

Accounting-wise, capital enhancement costs are treated quite differently operational expenses.

Plus, it's a great time to be borrowing money for construction projects with such low interest rates. We're in an interesting phase where many schools have been simultaneously hammered by revenue losses as a result of the pandemic but might still be rushing to start more capital projects in order to lock in cheap financing.

As a result, none of that is a surprise.
04-01-2021 12:44 PM
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RE: Conference Alignment for Philly Schools
(04-01-2021 11:53 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(03-31-2021 07:54 AM)esayem Wrote:  St. Joe’s and LaSalle would be crazy to leave. They have a built-in recruiting pitch of playing in a superior league to the MAAC and CAA.

Too small for major conference athletics.

Could win more games in the MAAC than the A10.

We see this argument all of the time, but schools (correctly, IMHO) virtually never *willingly* downgrade conferences.

If a school like LaSalle starts winning more games in the MAAC, then the goal of the athletic department shifts to finding a better conference... like the A-10.

Same thing with lots of different comparisons. Maybe DePaul would win more games in the A-10 or MVC compared to the Big East, but as soon as DePaul starts having success, then the goal would be to get (back) into the Big East!

All of that of course means that it would be insane for those schools to downgrade conferences in the first place because being in the best conference possible *is* the destination in and of itself.

Would Loyola trade in its Final Four to trade places with DePaul to be last place in the Big East? Yes! Would UCF, Houston, Memphis and Cincinnati trade in their access bowl appearances to be last place in a P5 conference? 100 times yes!

Ultimately, the job of a university president is to get into the best conference possible. Period. The predictability of year-to-year revenue from the best conference possible is simply way more important than wins or losses to the *university president* and the buck for the entire school stops there. It's the job of the coaches to manage wins or losses. The athletic department has to manage both sides (conference membership and on-the-field/court performance) as the bridge between the university president and the coaches.
04-01-2021 12:55 PM
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Post: #31
RE: Conference Alignment for Philly Schools
(04-01-2021 12:34 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  
(04-01-2021 11:53 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(03-31-2021 07:54 AM)esayem Wrote:  St. Joe’s and LaSalle would be crazy to leave. They have a built-in recruiting pitch of playing in a superior league to the MAAC and CAA.

Too small for major conference athletics.

Could win more games in the MAAC than the A10.

IMO, the A10 may have outgrown LaSalle. The large public schools (UMass, URI, GMU, VCU) and Catholic schools with rabid fans (Dayton, StLouis) are investing a lot more in athletics. The A10 also has schools with deep pockets (Davidson, GWU and Richmond).

I’m not sure that the Explorers can, or should try to, keep up with the A10’s upper tier.

La Salle has never had the resources to compete with the top of the A10. They have a MAAC basketball budget and MAAC facilities. However, they won’t leave the A10 because they’d be worse off financially and they want the institutional exposure in NC and the Mid-Atlantic that they get in the A10 and won’t get in the MAAC.
04-01-2021 01:02 PM
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Post: #32
RE: Conference Alignment for Philly Schools
(04-01-2021 11:43 AM)random asian guy Wrote:  
(03-31-2021 04:21 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  BC
Syracuse
Temple
Penn St
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
WVU

St John’s
Villanova
Georgetown

Would have made awesome Eastern conference.

Pretty good. And the Eastern conference can be expanded to something like this:

BC
Syracuse
Temple
Penn St
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
WVU
UConn
Miami
VT
Louisville
Cincy

St John’s
Villanova
Georgetown
ND

12 football and 16 basketball teams. Probably competitve in terms of revenue even in the current landscape

We should call that conference the Big East... yeah that sounds right.
04-01-2021 01:09 PM
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Post: #33
RE: Conference Alignment for Philly Schools
(04-01-2021 11:53 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(03-31-2021 07:54 AM)esayem Wrote:  St. Joe’s and LaSalle would be crazy to leave. They have a built-in recruiting pitch of playing in a superior league to the MAAC and CAA.

Too small for major conference athletics.

Could win more games in the MAAC than the A10.

You attract more bees with honey than vinegar, or so it goes. They’re going to lose recruiting clout shifting down to MAAC. They won’t look so hot and win so much for long down there.

I don’t know what LaSalle is trying to do at this point other than hanging onto the affiliation, but, St. Joe’s over the years, since the “power years” in the 60’s and 70’s when they were near fixtures in the tournament, seems to be cyclical. They get decent, NIT-level seasons, tournament-level years, and down years. Martelli had that going for him until that last cycle, never trending back up to keep the pattern. He lost his AD support, and the new brass fired him. I think SJU knows they can’t hang with Villanova or Temple consistently. I think they feel they don’t have to. And that’s kinda par for the course for numerous A10 schools. Be good enough once every 4-5 years...it’s fine.
04-01-2021 01:35 PM
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Post: #34
RE: Conference Alignment for Philly Schools
The CAA is just an odd conference. When people take a look at it they usually come to the conclusion that the conference doesn't make too much sense as is, but none of the members really have a more viable option at the moment.
04-01-2021 01:45 PM
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Post: #35
RE: Conference Alignment for Philly Schools
I think I said previously once Jay Wright and Villanova took off, the other city schools have plummeted. Temple's move to the AAC might mean more dollars for their athletic department but more losses for their men's basketball team. Their football team might be better but that's about it. Ask their baseball and softball teams how they're doing. Oh wait you can't because they were cut because of the move to the AAC! You think Temple can afford to fly their teams to Texas? If they were in the A-10 they can afford to have those teams. I had completely forgotten about Drexel until this year.

I've been to all six of the gyms in the area. I was most recently at St. Joe's remodeled arena. Nice but small. I haven't been to Villanova's Pavillion since they remodeled it but was there a few times before hand. It's tough to get tickets to either St. Joe's or Villanova because they're small. If I want to see 'Nova I usually just go to the Sixers arena. Temple is usually easy to get and their arena is fairly modern although the AAC opponents aren't usually worth going to see, especially now with UConn gone. I don't think Drexel and LaSalle are worth going to anymore (LaSalle's Sweet 16 year came out of nowhere). The Palestra is historic but I'm not really a fan. They also play very few day games and that's not an area I want to be at at night. There have been a few days I've gone to two men's basketball games in the Philly area in the same day. Once the pandemic is over I might try that again. I've also been to Princeton for a few games. They also have a lot of night games and their arena isn't easy to find plus there are almost no restaurants around there (or at least ones I'm familiar with).
04-01-2021 01:55 PM
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Post: #36
RE: Conference Alignment for Philly Schools
(04-01-2021 12:55 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(04-01-2021 11:53 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(03-31-2021 07:54 AM)esayem Wrote:  St. Joe’s and LaSalle would be crazy to leave. They have a built-in recruiting pitch of playing in a superior league to the MAAC and CAA.

Too small for major conference athletics.

Could win more games in the MAAC than the A10.

We see this argument all of the time, but schools (correctly, IMHO) virtually never *willingly* downgrade conferences.

If a school like LaSalle starts winning more games in the MAAC, then the goal of the athletic department shifts to finding a better conference... like the A-10.

Same thing with lots of different comparisons. Maybe DePaul would win more games in the A-10 or MVC compared to the Big East, but as soon as DePaul starts having success, then the goal would be to get (back) into the Big East!

All of that of course means that it would be insane for those schools to downgrade conferences in the first place because being in the best conference possible *is* the destination in and of itself.

Would Loyola trade in its Final Four to trade places with DePaul to be last place in the Big East? Yes! Would UCF, Houston, Memphis and Cincinnati trade in their access bowl appearances to be last place in a P5 conference? 100 times yes!

Ultimately, the job of a university president is to get into the best conference possible. Period. The predictability of year-to-year revenue from the best conference possible is simply way more important than wins or losses to the *university president* and the buck for the entire school stops there. It's the job of the coaches to manage wins or losses. The athletic department has to manage both sides (conference membership and on-the-field/court performance) as the bridge between the university president and the coaches.

I think that's true if an athletic department is always trying to grind toward its best possible destination, and yeah, no college program to the best of my knowledge has ever done the one-step-back-to-take-two-steps-forward thing.

But take La Salle. Let's say that the president, the AD and some outside experts have hashed it out and come to the conclusion that the best they can ever be is either a) a middle-to-bottom A10 program that occasionally gets the stars to align in such a way that they scratch across an occasional NCAA bid, or b) a consistent contender in a MAAC-level conference with reasonable expectations that they can make the NCAAs multiple times in a given decade.

Then consider how the A10 distributes NCAA share money (75 percent to the program that earned the share, so more of an eat-what-you-kill system than most conferences), and add to that the likelihood that the haves and even the mid-pack programs will continue to pull away in terms of spending and facilities. What you're left with is the reasonable possibility that La Salle's future is a lot more likely to be another Fordham (if it isn't already!) than a program that can produce another Sweet 16 team like it did in 2013.

With that in mind, a move to the MAAC may not be the best optics and would certainly raise hackles among whatever fans and boosters they have, but might be where they belong going forward.

(Note that I don't mention Olympic sports here, primarily because I'm not sure the A10 is much better than the MAAC. At best, the A10 has one, maybe two decent teams in a mediocre conference, and sometimes not even that.)
04-01-2021 02:00 PM
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Fighting Muskie Online
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Post: #37
RE: Conference Alignment for Philly Schools
(04-01-2021 01:45 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  The CAA is just an odd conference. When people take a look at it they usually come to the conclusion that the conference doesn't make too much sense as is, but none of the members really have a more viable option at the moment.

It truly is.

It’s an odd combination of schools who don’t quite have academics to be in the Patriot League, but also don’t have the athletic prowess to be in the A-10, but none the less, count themselves to be the academic and athletic superiors of more regional conferences: the MAAC, NEC, and America East in the North and the SoCon and Big South in the South.
04-01-2021 02:14 PM
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Post: #38
RE: Conference Alignment for Philly Schools
(04-01-2021 02:14 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(04-01-2021 01:45 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  The CAA is just an odd conference. When people take a look at it they usually come to the conclusion that the conference doesn't make too much sense as is, but none of the members really have a more viable option at the moment.

It truly is.

It’s an odd combination of schools who don’t quite have academics to be in the Patriot League, but also don’t have the athletic prowess to be in the A-10, but none the less, count themselves to be the academic and athletic superiors of more regional conferences: the MAAC, NEC, and America East in the North and the SoCon and Big South in the South.

Perhaps the way to approach where conferences rank is by adapting the baseball pyramid. So on the East Coast you get (VERY broadly):

MLB: Big East, ACC, SEC
AAA: A10, AAC
AA: CUSA, Sun Belt
Upper-A: CAA, SoCon, Patriot
A: MAAC, America East, ASUN
Short-season A: MEAC, Big South, NEC

Obviously there's a lot of wiggle room, particularly in the lower reaches. And specific sports give you different results (SoCon would be ahead of the Belt in basketball, the A10 would be a lot lower in baseball, etc.). Definitely an inexact science.
04-01-2021 02:28 PM
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Post: #39
RE: Conference Alignment for Philly Schools
I'm a Temple alum who was a student during the darkest of days for Temple athletics.

My freshman year hoops was coming off the 2001 Elite 8 and entered the season with a Top 15 ranking. We struggled out of the gate and from that point on the basketball program was never the same. We never made the tournament during my 4.5 years on North Broad. The end of the Chaney era was filled mostly with "ok" but not good enough.

It's been 20 years since the last time we made the second week of the Tournament. We have not been ranked in the preseason since 2001-02. Temple hoops has not spent a single week in the AP Top 25 since March 2012.

Our basketball failures fall squarely on the shoulders of the administration. The drive simply isn't there to take the next step towards legit national relevancy. Until we get someone from outside the Temple/Philly bubble who can upset the apple cart the status quo will continue. I sadly don't see Mckie taking us beyond what Dunphy did. In fact, I think he'll struggle to match Dunphy's ceiling.

Football became a national disgrace during my time as a student. Our ineptitude ultimately led to us being kicked out of the Big East; and rightfully so. Thankfully, our administration did not throw in the towel on the program and the right steps were taken to make it at a minimum competent. The combination of Al Golden's ability to rally people and the MAC offering a perfect landing spot to build a competitive program was well executed by the university. If nothing else, the administration and key friends/alums of the university did an excellent job of fixing the absolute disaster some of them created. I have no issues with how football has performed over the last decade or so. My only issue is the inability to keep coaches as a G5 program. It's nearly impossible to avoid some significant peaks and valleys.

My major gripe with the AAC is Temple's location to fellow members. I love to attend away games/visit other universities (weekend roadies) and sadly that simply isn't an option now that UConn has left. I drove down to ECU for a football game in 2015 but that's it; Greenville, 9ish hours, is fringe car distance imo. I would like to get to Cincinnati for a game as that's the only other place I'd consider driving to. I've been to the city of Cincinnati and UC's campus quite a few times but it's always been in the summer; love both! Reminds me of Pittsburgh.

I'm just glad I grew up (38) a ND football fan and Syracuse hoops fan when it comes to big time college sports because Temple and DePaul continue to wallow in varying degrees of irrelevancy. Lehigh football should be much better too but that's another story for another day.....
(This post was last modified: 04-01-2021 02:48 PM by TUowl06.)
04-01-2021 02:39 PM
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Post: #40
RE: Conference Alignment for Philly Schools
(04-01-2021 01:45 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  The CAA is just an odd conference. When people take a look at it they usually come to the conclusion that the conference doesn't make too much sense as is, but none of the members really have a more viable option at the moment.

I think William & Mary should have received the A10 invite over Mason. Probably would have with a bit more life in the basketball department.
04-01-2021 02:40 PM
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