(03-26-2021 10:15 AM)YouPeople Wrote:  

(03-25-2021 02:46 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(03-25-2021 02:32 PM)Hallcity Wrote:  

(03-25-2021 01:21 PM)ken d Wrote:  If the SEC were to invite NC State to join them, and no ACC schools opposed the move, would the Pack accept the invitation? And if they said yes, who would the ACC target to replace them?

Your premise is unrealistic since all the other ACC schools would oppose such a move. I’m no NCSU alum but I’d guess the vast majority of alums would oppose this as would the NC General Assembly. It’s a non-starter. It wouldn’t solve any real problem NCSU has.

I didn't ask whether the premise was realistic. My interest is in finding out what NC State fans and administration would really want if there weren't any obstacles put in their way.

And, I doubt if you speak for all the other ACC schools on this or any matter. None of us do.

I think a lot of State fans would be more than happy to move to the SEC...I know I would. I'm 46 years old and have been a State fan since birth. Season ticket holder in multiple sports and, to me, the ACC is just blah.

First...the ACC isn't what it used to be. Holly Farms, Sail with the Pilot, Packer/Thacker etc etc etc.....all GONE. Not coming back...ever. So whatever traditions associated with being a part of tobacco rd and the "old guard" of the ACC...are pretty much gone.

Secondly, NCSU needs money for the athletic dept. The SEC would be a shot in the arm where that is concerned. State would be light years behind in the facilities dept but I think they could catch up quickly.

But...what many fans probably don't grasp is how hard it would be to make the move.

#1 The UNC Board of Gov would never allow NCSU to have an advantage of any kind over UNC. Being in the SEC would be a perceived advantage for the athletic dept.

#2 The academic snobs wouldnt want to leave the likes of Duke, UVa, UNC and GT
et al.....for the SEC. Even though NCSU would fit in the SEC like a glove the eggheads wouldn't go for it.

Which when taken together means the only possible move is to the Big 10.

(03-26-2021 12:22 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(03-26-2021 10:15 AM)YouPeople Wrote:  

(03-25-2021 02:46 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(03-25-2021 02:32 PM)Hallcity Wrote:  

(03-25-2021 01:21 PM)ken d Wrote:  If the SEC were to invite NC State to join them, and no ACC schools opposed the move, would the Pack accept the invitation? And if they said yes, who would the ACC target to replace them?

Your premise is unrealistic since all the other ACC schools would oppose such a move. I’m no NCSU alum but I’d guess the vast majority of alums would oppose this as would the NC General Assembly. It’s a non-starter. It wouldn’t solve any real problem NCSU has.

I didn't ask whether the premise was realistic. My interest is in finding out what NC State fans and administration would really want if there weren't any obstacles put in their way.

And, I doubt if you speak for all the other ACC schools on this or any matter. None of us do.

I think a lot of State fans would be more than happy to move to the SEC...I know I would. I'm 46 years old and have been a State fan since birth. Season ticket holder in multiple sports and, to me, the ACC is just blah.

First...the ACC isn't what it used to be. Holly Farms, Sail with the Pilot, Packer/Thacker etc etc etc.....all GONE. Not coming back...ever. So whatever traditions associated with being a part of tobacco rd and the "old guard" of the ACC...are pretty much gone.

Secondly, NCSU needs money for the athletic dept. The SEC would be a shot in the arm where that is concerned. State would be light years behind in the facilities dept but I think they could catch up quickly.

But...what many fans probably don't grasp is how hard it would be to make the move.

#1 The UNC Board of Gov would never allow NCSU to have an advantage of any kind over UNC. Being in the SEC would be a perceived advantage for the athletic dept.

#2 The academic snobs wouldnt want to leave the likes of Duke, UVa, UNC and GT
et al.....for the SEC. Even though NCSU would fit in the SEC like a glove the eggheads wouldn't go for it.

Which when taken together means the only possible move is to the Big 10.

Not if UNC and Duke takes the slots.

Here's a grand bargain at 15 schools:

B10:
NC State/MD/PSU/Rutgers/Ohio State
Michighan/MSU/Purdue/Indiana/NW
Wisky/Nebraska/Minn/Iowa/Illinois

B10 adds 11 million southeastern eyes, but does not get stuck with Kansas football.

ACC:
Kansas/Mizzou/Louisville/GT/FSU
Miami/Pitt/BC/Syracuse/Duke
UVa/VT/WF/UNC/Clemson

ACC loses one of four NC schools, gains Kansas City and St. Louis market (yes, markets are not that big a THING)

SEC:
Texas/OU/TAMU/Arkansas/LSU
Bama/Ole Miss/MSU/Vandy/TN
UK/UGa/SC/Auburn/Florida

SEC jettisons Mizzou for OU and Texas - the clear winner of the three.

(03-26-2021 12:25 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(03-26-2021 12:22 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(03-26-2021 10:15 AM)YouPeople Wrote:  

(03-25-2021 02:46 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(03-25-2021 02:32 PM)Hallcity Wrote:  Your premise is unrealistic since all the other ACC schools would oppose such a move. I’m no NCSU alum but I’d guess the vast majority of alums would oppose this as would the NC General Assembly. It’s a non-starter. It wouldn’t solve any real problem NCSU has.

I didn't ask whether the premise was realistic. My interest is in finding out what NC State fans and administration would really want if there weren't any obstacles put in their way.

And, I doubt if you speak for all the other ACC schools on this or any matter. None of us do.

I think a lot of State fans would be more than happy to move to the SEC...I know I would. I'm 46 years old and have been a State fan since birth. Season ticket holder in multiple sports and, to me, the ACC is just blah.

First...the ACC isn't what it used to be. Holly Farms, Sail with the Pilot, Packer/Thacker etc etc etc.....all GONE. Not coming back...ever. So whatever traditions associated with being a part of tobacco rd and the "old guard" of the ACC...are pretty much gone.

Secondly, NCSU needs money for the athletic dept. The SEC would be a shot in the arm where that is concerned. State would be light years behind in the facilities dept but I think they could catch up quickly.

But...what many fans probably don't grasp is how hard it would be to make the move.

#1 The UNC Board of Gov would never allow NCSU to have an advantage of any kind over UNC. Being in the SEC would be a perceived advantage for the athletic dept.

#2 The academic snobs wouldnt want to leave the likes of Duke, UVa, UNC and GT
et al.....for the SEC. Even though NCSU would fit in the SEC like a glove the eggheads wouldn't go for it.

Which when taken together means the only possible move is to the Big 10.

Not if UNC and Duke takes the slots.

JR., that's simply not going to happen. Neither wants to spend what they would have to spend to compete in non-revenue sports. I know this first hand from UNC-Ch ptb. The combined ego and arrogance of Duke and UNC is equal to Michigan's. Michigan and OSU deter UNC and Duke for reasons that Alabama and Texas would not. It does not matter that they would make more money.

Duke and UNC will not leave UVa. For those three to leave the ACC means the ACC no longer exists. If the ACC no longer exists and Duke, UVa, and UNC are not in the SEC, than that means NC State, VT, Clemson, and FSU, are in the SEC.

In addition to extra television revenue, all 8 will face substantial increased costs that will not allow any of them to make up most of the difference driven by competition with the schools that seat 95-110K for football.

To put it another way, Purdue, Indiana, Maryland, Minnesota, Nebraska, Ole Miss, MSU, Kentucky, and Arkansas could all field more competitive football programs in the ACC. The cost factor is driven by about a dozen schools - namely Alabama, Texas, Ohio State, Auburn, LSU, Michigan, Penn State, TAMU, and OU.

While I am the first to admit revenue matters most, cost of competition has to matter.

(03-26-2021 12:35 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(03-26-2021 12:25 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(03-26-2021 12:22 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(03-26-2021 10:15 AM)YouPeople Wrote:  

(03-25-2021 02:46 PM)ken d Wrote:  I didn't ask whether the premise was realistic. My interest is in finding out what NC State fans and administration would really want if there weren't any obstacles put in their way.

And, I doubt if you speak for all the other ACC schools on this or any matter. None of us do.

I think a lot of State fans would be more than happy to move to the SEC...I know I would. I'm 46 years old and have been a State fan since birth. Season ticket holder in multiple sports and, to me, the ACC is just blah.

First...the ACC isn't what it used to be. Holly Farms, Sail with the Pilot, Packer/Thacker etc etc etc.....all GONE. Not coming back...ever. So whatever traditions associated with being a part of tobacco rd and the "old guard" of the ACC...are pretty much gone.

Secondly, NCSU needs money for the athletic dept. The SEC would be a shot in the arm where that is concerned. State would be light years behind in the facilities dept but I think they could catch up quickly.

But...what many fans probably don't grasp is how hard it would be to make the move.

#1 The UNC Board of Gov would never allow NCSU to have an advantage of any kind over UNC. Being in the SEC would be a perceived advantage for the athletic dept.

#2 The academic snobs wouldnt want to leave the likes of Duke, UVa, UNC and GT
et al.....for the SEC. Even though NCSU would fit in the SEC like a glove the eggheads wouldn't go for it.

Which when taken together means the only possible move is to the Big 10.

Not if UNC and Duke takes the slots.

JR., that's simply not going to happen. Neither wants to spend what they would have to spend to compete in non-revenue sports. I know this first hand from UNC-Ch ptb. The combined ego and arrogance of Duke and UNC is equal to Michigan's. Michigan and OSU deter UNC and Duke for reasons that Alabama and Texas would not. It does not matter that they would make more money.

Sorry, but the time is coming when some moves are going to be compelled. If not the Big 10 then they need to be applying to the SEC, which would free N.C. State to head North if it desired.

But that aside, the long game for the SEC and consolidation may wind up being 18 or 20 depending upon what happens with the Big 12. If the SEC takes 2 of the best to the west. Then follows up with 4 to the East. In that world UNC, N.C. State, Duke, and F.S.U. do the trick. Virginia is a bit far North and Carolina is on a plain with Tennessee through to Missouri.

That move slams the door on the Big 10 at North Carolina and secures the advantage in Florida. If we land Texas and Tech to the West

If ESPN wants to build a better conference around the Big 12 that will likely limit the SEC to 18 and if we expanded out of the ACC we would have till have 4 slots in that scenario as well.

South Carolina wouldn't be upset if Clemson became part of the Big 12 as they would still play at year's end. So 6 schools to the Big 12, 4 to the SEC and 4 to the Big 10 would take care of business.

Otherwise nothing much happens and the Big 10 and SEC simply solidify their positions and difference with the rest. But in the end the whole milieu will necessitate change.

(03-26-2021 12:35 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Duke and UNC will not leave UVa. For those three to leave the ACC means the ACC no longer exists. If the ACC no longer exists and Duke, UVa, and UNC are not in the SEC, than that means NC State, VT, Clemson, and FSU, are in the SEC.

If I were in charge of the Big Ten, Oklahoma and Texas don't want in, and once the GOR expires, I'd consider inviting Duke, UNC, UVa, and insert another ACC member for #18 (I might go big and try for Florida State to get into Florida, if not Georgia Tech gives us Atlanta and is chubby with those three schools, of course Notre Dame is always welcome, I definitely have a soft spot for Pittsburgh).

(03-25-2021 09:28 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(03-25-2021 05:48 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(03-25-2021 05:19 PM)DawgNBama Wrote:  The only way I can see this happening is UNC moving to the Big Ten. This would then free NC State to leave for the SEC, IMO, since only Duke and Wake would be opposed.

While NC State would need the support of existing members of the conference they were trying to get into, they wouldn't need Wake's or Duke's support to leave. The only reason their support might matter would be in negotiating the price of leaving, both with respect to the exit fee and the GoR. Frankly, I'm not certain the ACC or any other conference has the stomach for testing the GoR in court for any member less important than one of its tentpoles.

If State were to try to accept a bona fide offer from the SEC, that could answer definitively the question of whether UNC could actually veto it as some claim and whether they would if they could..

Whatever Duke wants, they get through their relationship with UNC. It's no different than when Duke wanted a tax free hotel and golf club, they went through UNC-Ch to get that. UNC-Ch and Duke are separate entities on paper and on a number of issues, but not all issues.

Duke sports thrive best when there is only one other successful team in NC. You can go back and see that over the last 80 years.

There is no question as to the issue of a UNC-Ch veto, to suggest otherwise means you do not understand NC politics. And to address JR's point, envy would only be associated with the SEC. The Big 10, not so much.

Breaking free of the others in NC is possible only with a move to the Big 10 because UNC nor Duke are greatly harmed by the change in football or basketball and despite the extra income from the Big 10, NC State football is not going to eclipse Penn State, Ohio State, Michigan, or Wisconsin. a 10-3 or 9-4 NC State does no harm to UNC or Duke.

The idea that UNC would leave the conference they have controlled with Duke for the last 50 years just for money is crazy and it underestimates UNC's and Duke's inherent need to win athletic contests.

It's cheap to compete in the ACC if you can compete in the ACC.

So UNC & Duke have a similar relationship that Georgia Tech & Emory have. Very interesting!!!

(03-26-2021 12:22 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(03-26-2021 10:15 AM)YouPeople Wrote:  

(03-25-2021 02:46 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(03-25-2021 02:32 PM)Hallcity Wrote:  

(03-25-2021 01:21 PM)ken d Wrote:  If the SEC were to invite NC State to join them, and no ACC schools opposed the move, would the Pack accept the invitation? And if they said yes, who would the ACC target to replace them?

Your premise is unrealistic since all the other ACC schools would oppose such a move. I’m no NCSU alum but I’d guess the vast majority of alums would oppose this as would the NC General Assembly. It’s a non-starter. It wouldn’t solve any real problem NCSU has.

I didn't ask whether the premise was realistic. My interest is in finding out what NC State fans and administration would really want if there weren't any obstacles put in their way.

And, I doubt if you speak for all the other ACC schools on this or any matter. None of us do.

I think a lot of State fans would be more than happy to move to the SEC...I know I would. I'm 46 years old and have been a State fan since birth. Season ticket holder in multiple sports and, to me, the ACC is just blah.

First...the ACC isn't what it used to be. Holly Farms, Sail with the Pilot, Packer/Thacker etc etc etc.....all GONE. Not coming back...ever. So whatever traditions associated with being a part of tobacco rd and the "old guard" of the ACC...are pretty much gone.

Secondly, NCSU needs money for the athletic dept. The SEC would be a shot in the arm where that is concerned. State would be light years behind in the facilities dept but I think they could catch up quickly.

But...what many fans probably don't grasp is how hard it would be to make the move.

#1 The UNC Board of Gov would never allow NCSU to have an advantage of any kind over UNC. Being in the SEC would be a perceived advantage for the athletic dept.

#2 The academic snobs wouldnt want to leave the likes of Duke, UVa, UNC and GT
et al.....for the SEC. Even though NCSU would fit in the SEC like a glove the eggheads wouldn't go for it.

Which when taken together means the only possible move is to the Big 10.

I would never lobby for joining the B1G. I would just as soon stay in the ACC. Sure the money would be nice but that's it. State belongs in the B1G as much as North Korea in NATO. Sure they have Ag schools up there but the culture in the SEC is more like us.

If the ACC were to blow up, UVa and UNC would opt for the B1G over the SEC due to academics. That would then leave the SEC for NCSU....but even then I believe UNC would insist on NCSU going with them to the B1G since I believe the SEC is perceived as the sexier conference.

UNC knows a football recruit in NC is more likely to go to the SEC school.

Dook is immaterial to this discussion as they are private and have zero pull with the UNC BOG.

(03-26-2021 04:47 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(03-25-2021 01:21 PM)ken d Wrote:  If the SEC were to invite NC State to join them, and no ACC schools opposed the move, would the Pack accept the invitation? And if they said yes, who would the ACC target to replace them?

That sure is a lot of ifs.

If State moved to the SEC, has 15 teams per conference become the "norm"? Should the ACC actually be looking for 2 teams to get to 15?

The obvious choice would be Notre Dame to overfill State's shoes. If (again) the Irish wanted to continue with the status quo and the ACC needed two teams to get to 15 full time members, the two targets would be: Cincinnati and Central Florida.

I don’t think NC State will ever leave. But if they do, the ACC should not add another team immediately. Keep the spot available for a high profile team like ND, Texas, PSU, Tenn, etc.

The ONLY way NCSU ever leaves is if ESPN works some kind of back room deal to improve the $$$ for the ACC. For example, Vandy would have to move to the ACC in a trade for NCSU to the SEC. This puts the SECN in NC and the ACCN in TN.

Only problem is, no SEC team is going to move the ACC....and I doubt very seriously NCSU would even be allowed to consider it either for the reasons I've already mentioned.

(03-26-2021 01:30 PM)YouPeople Wrote:  

(03-26-2021 12:22 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(03-26-2021 10:15 AM)YouPeople Wrote:  

(03-25-2021 02:46 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(03-25-2021 02:32 PM)Hallcity Wrote:  Your premise is unrealistic since all the other ACC schools would oppose such a move. I’m no NCSU alum but I’d guess the vast majority of alums would oppose this as would the NC General Assembly. It’s a non-starter. It wouldn’t solve any real problem NCSU has.

I didn't ask whether the premise was realistic. My interest is in finding out what NC State fans and administration would really want if there weren't any obstacles put in their way.

And, I doubt if you speak for all the other ACC schools on this or any matter. None of us do.

I think a lot of State fans would be more than happy to move to the SEC...I know I would. I'm 46 years old and have been a State fan since birth. Season ticket holder in multiple sports and, to me, the ACC is just blah.

First...the ACC isn't what it used to be. Holly Farms, Sail with the Pilot, Packer/Thacker etc etc etc.....all GONE. Not coming back...ever. So whatever traditions associated with being a part of tobacco rd and the "old guard" of the ACC...are pretty much gone.

Secondly, NCSU needs money for the athletic dept. The SEC would be a shot in the arm where that is concerned. State would be light years behind in the facilities dept but I think they could catch up quickly.

But...what many fans probably don't grasp is how hard it would be to make the move.

#1 The UNC Board of Gov would never allow NCSU to have an advantage of any kind over UNC. Being in the SEC would be a perceived advantage for the athletic dept.

#2 The academic snobs wouldnt want to leave the likes of Duke, UVa, UNC and GT
et al.....for the SEC. Even though NCSU would fit in the SEC like a glove the eggheads wouldn't go for it.

Which when taken together means the only possible move is to the Big 10.

I would never lobby for joining the B1G. I would just as soon stay in the ACC. Sure the money would be nice but that's it. State belongs in the B1G as much as North Korea in NATO. Sure they have Ag schools up there but the culture in the SEC is more like us.

If the ACC were to blow up, UVa and UNC would opt for the B1G over the SEC due to academics. That would then leave the SEC for NCSU....but even then I believe UNC would insist on NCSU going with them to the B1G since I believe the SEC is perceived as the sexier conference.

UNC knows a football recruit in NC is more likely to go to the SEC school.

Dook is immaterial to this discussion as they are private and have zero pull with the UNC BOG.

This is not accurate.

They do not have to sit on the BOG to have their influence. Their $4 Billion endowment they control from Charlotte is the walking around money they use to achieve an outcome as well as Trustee Emeritus status and putting brand new organs in people who are otherwise about to die.

If you actually see them, they have ****** up.

The Duke way is to be unseen in the process and to use Greensboro and Charlotte to get their way in Raleigh.

That endowment in Charlotte is just their walking around money - it is not the University's endowment nor the Health Care System's endowment money.

(03-26-2021 03:55 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(03-26-2021 01:30 PM)YouPeople Wrote:  Dook is immaterial to this discussion as they are private and have zero pull with the UNC BOG.

This is not accurate.

They do not have to sit on the BOG to have their influence. Their $4 Billion endowment they control from Charlotte is the walking around money they use to achieve an outcome as well as Trustee Emeritus status and putting brand new organs in people who are otherwise about to die...

My, oh my, it sounds like you're suggesting Duke is using BRIBERY to get their way!

Why NC State?

Couldn't you place anyone in the conference in that scenario???

UNC will never let NC St have anything nice. In fact, UNC would probably bring Duke as a companion in a conference move over the Wolfpack.

Ditto with VT—UVA will use their political pressure to keep them in the ACC.

NCSU to the SEC is no good IMO they haven’t show. The ability to dominate the ACC in football in any of the time SU has been in the conference. Do NCSU fan think a conference move like that will lead to momentum and wins? If I had to pick an AcC team to make the switch and experience success I would say GT or VT (Vt athletic department would be able to fire fluentes) get a real football coach in Blacksburg plus SEC football they explode imo

The SEC wouldn't want anyone from NC for their athletic prowess. It would be to get the SECN in NC. Same for Virginia.

(03-28-2021 10:36 AM)YouPeople Wrote:  The SEC wouldn't want anyone from NC for their athletic prowess. It would be to get the SECN in NC. Same for Virginia.

Yes it's not about athletic prowess just like adding Texas or OU is not about that for the SEC. They have plenty of that. The Harlem Globetrotters need the Washington Generals in order to put on a show and make money for both - just like SC and Arkansas and just like Pitt and BC, and just like MD and Rutgers.

To make a **** ton of money you need at least two perineal top 10-15 powers that are in the conference playoff at least every other year. (If you didn't have these two to support the conference what would they do? )

Then you need 4-6 that are respectable, can get their fan base all hyped up, make a run, then crash and burn at the end. The bottom third is just there to make the required number of games possible.

Duke and UNC have an ego the size of Michigan. Duke and UNC do not get along with some Big 10 members for reasons that are cultural. You bypass the oversized ego with NC State and VT. If UNC and Duke join another conference, they will work like hell to run it their way.

Duke and UNC have been used to operating as the most progressive schools in an otherwise conservative environment. That all changes in the Big 10. Duke and UNC do not have to confront unions - which while only tangentially related to sports, goes to the heart of how Duke and UNC operate. They operate as modern day plantations/textile mills/tobacco mills - mostly beneficent to the employees unless you cross them. For most people the beneficent plantation is a good deal but it's not always good for self-actualizing.

I think there are only so many overinflated egos any organization can stand. TAMU, SC, MD, and Nebraska all moved because of this. Some extra money was nice, but it's not about the money all the time.

Fascinating how similar this discussion about NCState is to Maryland’s move. The envy towards Duke & UNC. The incremental money in the SEC or BIG.

FSU and Clemson carry the conference’s media value. But the issue is not how to emulate their success.

(03-28-2021 01:51 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  Fascinating how similar this discussion about NCState is to Maryland’s move. The envy towards Duke & UNC. The incremental money in the SEC or BIG.

FSU and Clemson carry the conference’s media value. But the issue is not how to emulate their success.

If NC State wanted to emulate Clemson's football success they would need to be cut loose from the UNC Board of Governors and have their own governance such as VT and Clemson have.

NC State can do only what the UNC BOG allows them to do. The vast majority of BOG members up until the last few years have been UNC-Ch graduates, third and fourth generation UNC-Ch alums, etc.

There is a bit of a similarity to Maryland in that their problems can be traced back to the 1970 decision to strip Maryland of certain graduate programs and to place those programs in Baltimore and having weak morons installed as a puppet president has hurt both MD and NC State in the past.

Having an $8 billion and a $4 billion endowment as well as a world class medical research center is something to be envious of and having only a $1.6 billion dollar endowment and a Veterinary research hospital is a drag on NC State. If you do not have Medical, Dental, Legal, Nursing, and Public Health graduate programs, you are in a world of hurt relative to your ability to raise "easy walking around money".

My point is that issues such as envy and endowments are really just excuses.

Clemson and FSU are carrying the conference value. They have lower endowments than most ACC members, and get lower payouts than their in-state rivals. These challenges aren’t debilitating their efforts in football.

Changing conferences doesn’t help address the problems with football.