So basketball season is about over which means there won’t be much to talk about here until September. I thought I’d do a weekly series of What If scenarios to help pass the time.

As we all know, the University of Chicago de emphasized athletics in the late 40s and left the Big Ten altogether, paving the way for Michigan St to join in 1950.

But what if the other private school in Chicago did the same thing at the same time? Contemporary sources speculated that Notre Dame, Nebraska, and Pittsburgh were all potential replacements for Chicago. So let’s consider each of the 3 as a replacement for Northwestern in conjunction with Mich St.

Notre Dame: this would have been the dream scenario. ND won multiple national titles in the 40s and would have been a huge boost to the conference. I don’t know that the Irish would reciprocate though. They’d already established them as a national brand with their trips to play Army in NYC and USC in LA. I think the Irish would have still been a household name in the Big Ten but I think their program would have lost a little bit of its luster.

Nebraska: Losing the Huskers, the dominant force in the Big 6, would have been a huge blow for that conference. They’d need Colorado just to keep their numbers at 6 and would have had to (re)-add Oklahoma St a couple decades ahead of schedule to be at 7. Maybe it even sends the other Big 6 schools into the SWC (in place of nouveau riche programs TTU and Houston, who joined in the 50s and 70s). Maybe we effectively get a Big 12 under the SWC banner in the 1950s of: Texas, TAMU, Arkansas, Baylor, TCU, Rice, SMU, Oklahoma, Missouri, Kansas, Kansas St, Iowa St
As far as Nebraska’s future in the Big 10, I think having to recruit against Michigan and Ohio St under the stricter, Big 10 recruiting rules would mean the Huskers would be a solid, but not dominant, Big 10 program.

Pittsburgh: I like this one a lot. I think plucking the Panthers in 1950 is a good move for both parties. It takes Pittsburgh out of the Big East conversation in the early 80s and I think it helps smooths Penn St’s transition into the Big 10 and maybe even moves it up a decade or more.

Taking Pittsburgh out of the Big East football mix would be a tough blow to Big East football and maybe even keeps it from ever happening.


———

What do you folks think? Who do you think the 10th Big Ten school would have been had two spots been open in the late 1940s?

Would Penn State have been in the conversation if Pittsburgh was?

(03-24-2021 01:16 PM)schmolik Wrote:  Would Penn State have been in the conversation if Pittsburgh was?

None of the articles I found from the time mention Penn St as an option, just Pittsburgh.

Notre Dame probably wouldn’t want to join...seems like they’ve been going after the national brand image since the Fielding Yost snub. ND is comfortable with independence.

The Big 10 is probably unimpressed with Nebraska of the 1940s and 1950s. Devaney and Osborne have not yet arrived to transform the Huskers...Nebraska is mediocre in football and far away from the athletic powers.

Pittsburgh seems like the perfect match. Great in football, with multiple national championships. A strong research university that fits the conference profile. A rival that scheduled neighboring Ohio State and grows the footprint.

If Pittsburgh were the 10th school in the BIG, I wonder whether Penn State would have looked at other directions for their affiliation. For example, maybe Pittsburgh doesn’t gut its football in the 1960s...so JoPa doesn’t become the eastern football power/prima-donna. Maybe Penn State and Syracuse have a stronger rivalry (helping the Big East long-term). Maybe Penn State and Maryland becomes a rivalry (helping the ACC long-term).

How about if Northwestern and UChicago had merged in 1933? Then UChicago President Robert Hutchins was an extremely unique and ultimately a very influential figure in academia. "The University of Chicago; A History" by John Bowyer us a great read for anyone interested in academia.....

(03-24-2021 01:27 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  Notre Dame probably wouldn’t want to join...seems like they’ve been going after the national brand image since the Fielding Yost snub. ND is comfortable with independence.

The Big 10 is probably unimpressed with Nebraska of the 1940s and 1950s. Devaney and Osborne have not yet arrived to transform the Huskers...Nebraska is mediocre in football and far away from the athletic powers.

Pittsburgh seems like the perfect match. Great in football, with multiple national championships. A strong research university that fits the conference profile. A rival that scheduled neighboring Ohio State and grows the footprint.

If Pittsburgh were the 10th school in the BIG, I wonder whether Penn State would have looked at other directions for their affiliation. For example, maybe Pittsburgh doesn’t gut its football in the 1960s...so JoPa doesn’t become the eastern football power/prima-donna. Maybe Penn State and Syracuse have a stronger rivalry (helping the Big East long-term). Maybe Penn State and Maryland becomes a rivalry (helping the ACC long-term).

Nebraska had a nice run from 1928-1940 but after that they did fall on some hard times.

Pittsburgh seems like the most likely at the time. They too had a rough decade in the 40s (but 4 NCs between 1929-37 are pretty attractive).

It’s hard to say what direction the Pitt decision would pull Penn St—Big 10, ACC, or Big East. I do t think it makes the BE more likely because I think the same 4 schools reject them regardless. In a post segregation ACC—Cuse and Penn St would have made anintriguing potential add

(03-24-2021 01:54 PM)TUowl06 Wrote:  How about if Northwestern and UChicago had merged in 1933? Then UChicago President Robert Hutchins was an extremely unique and ultimately a very influential figure in academia. "The University of Chicago; A History" by John Bowyer us a great read for anyone interested in academia.....

The only two things that Northwestern and UChicago have in common are that they're (1) academically elite schools and (2) in close proximity in the Chicago area.

Otherwise, they're VERY different schools. Northwestern has a preprofessional focus, significant Greek life, and Big Ten sports - in essence, it has extremely smart kids but its culture is pretty "normal" as far as college campuses go. Any smart kid at a state flagship school would honestly feel pretty comfortable at Northwestern. UChicago, on the other hand, is a hard core "learning for the sake of learning" academic campus with a very distinct intellectual and quirky atmosphere. They pride themselves on how brutally tough their academic courseload is for everyone.

As a lifelong Chicagoan, I know tons of people that went to both of these schools. Virtually all of the Northwestern grads *loved* their time on campus in a similar way that Michigan grads talk about Michigan or Notre Dame grads talk about Notre Dame. It's a really balanced school between top academics and social life similar to places like Vanderbilt and Duke. Meanwhile, the UChicago grads often talk about their experience the way that military people talk about boot camp (e.g. a lifechanging experience for a young person, but not necessarily fun). I think UChicago is starting to move away from the hard core nature lately as it has moved up the US News Rankings, but it's still a college with a very distinct personality where you're either going to fit in there or you're going to feel totally out of place.

(03-24-2021 01:19 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(03-24-2021 01:16 PM)schmolik Wrote:  Would Penn State have been in the conversation if Pittsburgh was?

None of the articles I found from the time mention Penn St as an option, just Pittsburgh.

Penn State was literally in the middle of nowhere back then and had no real athletic pedigree at that point.

(03-24-2021 02:18 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-24-2021 01:54 PM)TUowl06 Wrote:  How about if Northwestern and UChicago had merged in 1933? Then UChicago President Robert Hutchins was an extremely unique and ultimately a very influential figure in academia. "The University of Chicago; A History" by John Bowyer us a great read for anyone interested in academia.....

The only two things that Northwestern and UChicago have in common are that they're (1) academically elite schools and (2) in close proximity in the Chicago area.

Otherwise, they're VERY different schools. Northwestern has a preprofessional focus, significant Greek life, and Big Ten sports - in essence, it has extremely smart kids but its culture is pretty "normal" as far as college campuses go. Any smart kid at a state flagship school would honestly feel pretty comfortable at Northwestern. UChicago, on the other hand, is a hard core "learning for the sake of learning" academic campus with a very distinct intellectual and quirky atmosphere. They pride themselves on how brutally tough their academic courseload is for everyone.

As a lifelong Chicagoan, I know tons of people that went to both of these schools. Virtually all of the Northwestern grads *loved* their time on campus in a similar way that Michigan grads talk about Michigan or Notre Dame grads talk about Notre Dame. It's a really balanced school between top academics and social life similar to places like Vanderbilt and Duke. Meanwhile, the UChicago grads often talk about their experience the way that military people talk about boot camp (e.g. a lifechanging experience for a young person, but not necessarily fun). I think UChicago is starting to move away from the hard core nature lately as it has moved up the US News Rankings, but it's still a college with a very distinct personality where you're either going to fit in there or you're going to feel totally out of place.

About 10 years ago, I toured U Chicago with my daughter. I was stunned when I heard their slogan: “where fun comes to die”. She persisted and gained admissions via the early decision process. U Chicago had a weekend get-together for accepted students in February...the weather killed any chance of matriculation. They definitely needed to change their reputation.

Having attended college in Chicago and with a personal connection to both Roosevelt University and DePaul University, here is my biased ranking of the Top 10 universities in the Windy City. The metrics include academic budgets, endowments, acceptance rates, graduation rates, sports, enrollments, quality of academic programs, professional programs and overall influence.

1A. Northwestern

1B. University of Chicago

3. DePaul

4. Loyola

5. Illinois Institute of Technology

6. UIC

7. Roosevelt

8. St. Xavier

9. Columbia College

10. National Lewis

(03-24-2021 03:01 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(03-24-2021 02:18 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-24-2021 01:54 PM)TUowl06 Wrote:  How about if Northwestern and UChicago had merged in 1933? Then UChicago President Robert Hutchins was an extremely unique and ultimately a very influential figure in academia. "The University of Chicago; A History" by John Bowyer us a great read for anyone interested in academia.....

The only two things that Northwestern and UChicago have in common are that they're (1) academically elite schools and (2) in close proximity in the Chicago area.

Otherwise, they're VERY different schools. Northwestern has a preprofessional focus, significant Greek life, and Big Ten sports - in essence, it has extremely smart kids but its culture is pretty "normal" as far as college campuses go. Any smart kid at a state flagship school would honestly feel pretty comfortable at Northwestern. UChicago, on the other hand, is a hard core "learning for the sake of learning" academic campus with a very distinct intellectual and quirky atmosphere. They pride themselves on how brutally tough their academic courseload is for everyone.

As a lifelong Chicagoan, I know tons of people that went to both of these schools. Virtually all of the Northwestern grads *loved* their time on campus in a similar way that Michigan grads talk about Michigan or Notre Dame grads talk about Notre Dame. It's a really balanced school between top academics and social life similar to places like Vanderbilt and Duke. Meanwhile, the UChicago grads often talk about their experience the way that military people talk about boot camp (e.g. a lifechanging experience for a young person, but not necessarily fun). I think UChicago is starting to move away from the hard core nature lately as it has moved up the US News Rankings, but it's still a college with a very distinct personality where you're either going to fit in there or you're going to feel totally out of place.

About 10 years ago, I toured U Chicago with my daughter. I was stunned when I heard their slogan: “where fun comes to die”. She persisted and gained admissions via the early decision process. U Chicago had a weekend get-together for accepted students in February...the weather killed any chance of matriculation. They definitely needed to change their reputation.

One of my nephews applied for admission to UChicago for the fall (he got a deferral). Not sure I would want him to attend if he gets accepted. It's a VERY challenging university.

Replacing NW in the late 1940's, the B10 would likely go Pittsburgh, Kansas, Mizzou, Nebraska. Travel to Lawrence (KC) and Pittsburgh from the Big Ten area would have been easy both by rail and highway at that time. Getting to Columbia Mo. would be the most "difficult". Travel to Pittsburgh and KC would also be a treat for any athlete stuck in the various Big 10 bum ***** of Iowa City, Champagne, Bloomington, Madison, West Lafayette, etc.

Notre Dame would not have been an option nor Penn State.

A US railroad map from 1921, combined with Segregation will explain the origins of the Western Conference, Southern Conference, Bix 6, and PCAA.

The Appalachian Mountains, Rocky Mountains, and Segregation are the three main physical splits of the nation until Segregation finally fades away in the late 60's/early 70's.

(03-24-2021 03:04 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(03-24-2021 03:01 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(03-24-2021 02:18 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-24-2021 01:54 PM)TUowl06 Wrote:  How about if Northwestern and UChicago had merged in 1933? Then UChicago President Robert Hutchins was an extremely unique and ultimately a very influential figure in academia. "The University of Chicago; A History" by John Bowyer us a great read for anyone interested in academia.....

The only two things that Northwestern and UChicago have in common are that they're (1) academically elite schools and (2) in close proximity in the Chicago area.

Otherwise, they're VERY different schools. Northwestern has a preprofessional focus, significant Greek life, and Big Ten sports - in essence, it has extremely smart kids but its culture is pretty "normal" as far as college campuses go. Any smart kid at a state flagship school would honestly feel pretty comfortable at Northwestern. UChicago, on the other hand, is a hard core "learning for the sake of learning" academic campus with a very distinct intellectual and quirky atmosphere. They pride themselves on how brutally tough their academic courseload is for everyone.

As a lifelong Chicagoan, I know tons of people that went to both of these schools. Virtually all of the Northwestern grads *loved* their time on campus in a similar way that Michigan grads talk about Michigan or Notre Dame grads talk about Notre Dame. It's a really balanced school between top academics and social life similar to places like Vanderbilt and Duke. Meanwhile, the UChicago grads often talk about their experience the way that military people talk about boot camp (e.g. a lifechanging experience for a young person, but not necessarily fun). I think UChicago is starting to move away from the hard core nature lately as it has moved up the US News Rankings, but it's still a college with a very distinct personality where you're either going to fit in there or you're going to feel totally out of place.

About 10 years ago, I toured U Chicago with my daughter. I was stunned when I heard their slogan: “where fun comes to die”. She persisted and gained admissions via the early decision process. U Chicago had a weekend get-together for accepted students in February...the weather killed any chance of matriculation. They definitely needed to change their reputation.

One of my nephews applied for admission to UChicago for the fall (he got a deferral). Not sure I would want him to attend if he gets accepted. It's a VERY challenging university.

Challenging can be fine...it depends on the kid.

My issue was that my daughter was already an extremely hard worker, I was encouraging a “work hard, play hard” experience for her undergraduate. Most selective schools need to emphasize that there is an opportunity for balance.

(03-24-2021 02:44 PM)whittx Wrote:  

(03-24-2021 01:19 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(03-24-2021 01:16 PM)schmolik Wrote:  Would Penn State have been in the conversation if Pittsburgh was?

None of the articles I found from the time mention Penn St as an option, just Pittsburgh.

Penn State was literally in the middle of nowhere back then and had no real athletic pedigree at that point.

Even by the time Penn State did join the Big Ten the knock on them was how remote and inaccessible it was. In the 40's and 50's it must have seemed like "you can't get there from here". Pitt would have been by far the more obvious choice, and as a Big Ten member might have prevented Penn State from ever growing into the Beast of the East the way it did.

(03-24-2021 03:22 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(03-24-2021 02:44 PM)whittx Wrote:  

(03-24-2021 01:19 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(03-24-2021 01:16 PM)schmolik Wrote:  Would Penn State have been in the conversation if Pittsburgh was?

None of the articles I found from the time mention Penn St as an option, just Pittsburgh.

Penn State was literally in the middle of nowhere back then and had no real athletic pedigree at that point.

Even by the time Penn State did join the Big Ten the knock on them was how remote and inaccessible it was. In the 40's and 50's it must have seemed like "you can't get there from here". Pitt would have been by far the more obvious choice, and as a Big Ten member might have prevented Penn State from ever growing into the Beast of the East the way it did.

Pitt in the Big 10 sends PSU to the ACC once Segregation is over. It makes it much more likely that Big 10 expansion becomes more of a merger with acceptable Big 6/Big 12 schools.

(03-24-2021 03:20 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(03-24-2021 03:04 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(03-24-2021 03:01 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(03-24-2021 02:18 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-24-2021 01:54 PM)TUowl06 Wrote:  How about if Northwestern and UChicago had merged in 1933? Then UChicago President Robert Hutchins was an extremely unique and ultimately a very influential figure in academia. "The University of Chicago; A History" by John Bowyer us a great read for anyone interested in academia.....

The only two things that Northwestern and UChicago have in common are that they're (1) academically elite schools and (2) in close proximity in the Chicago area.

Otherwise, they're VERY different schools. Northwestern has a preprofessional focus, significant Greek life, and Big Ten sports - in essence, it has extremely smart kids but its culture is pretty "normal" as far as college campuses go. Any smart kid at a state flagship school would honestly feel pretty comfortable at Northwestern. UChicago, on the other hand, is a hard core "learning for the sake of learning" academic campus with a very distinct intellectual and quirky atmosphere. They pride themselves on how brutally tough their academic courseload is for everyone.

As a lifelong Chicagoan, I know tons of people that went to both of these schools. Virtually all of the Northwestern grads *loved* their time on campus in a similar way that Michigan grads talk about Michigan or Notre Dame grads talk about Notre Dame. It's a really balanced school between top academics and social life similar to places like Vanderbilt and Duke. Meanwhile, the UChicago grads often talk about their experience the way that military people talk about boot camp (e.g. a lifechanging experience for a young person, but not necessarily fun). I think UChicago is starting to move away from the hard core nature lately as it has moved up the US News Rankings, but it's still a college with a very distinct personality where you're either going to fit in there or you're going to feel totally out of place.

About 10 years ago, I toured U Chicago with my daughter. I was stunned when I heard their slogan: “where fun comes to die”. She persisted and gained admissions via the early decision process. U Chicago had a weekend get-together for accepted students in February...the weather killed any chance of matriculation. They definitely needed to change their reputation.

One of my nephews applied for admission to UChicago for the fall (he got a deferral). Not sure I would want him to attend if he gets accepted. It's a VERY challenging university.

Challenging can be fine...it depends on the kid.

My issue was that my daughter was already an extremely hard worker, I was encouraging a “work hard, play hard” experience for her undergraduate. Most selective schools need to emphasize that there is an opportunity for balance.

I love Chicago (my father has been a Cubs fan since 1945) and would be thrilled to see my nephew experience living and attending school in the Windy City.

But I just don't know if he would like UofC (with, as you note, the weather being a factor in addition to the overall tough academics).

I trust your daughter found a fine university and was happy there.

(03-24-2021 03:27 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(03-24-2021 03:20 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(03-24-2021 03:04 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(03-24-2021 03:01 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(03-24-2021 02:18 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  The only two things that Northwestern and UChicago have in common are that they're (1) academically elite schools and (2) in close proximity in the Chicago area.

Otherwise, they're VERY different schools. Northwestern has a preprofessional focus, significant Greek life, and Big Ten sports - in essence, it has extremely smart kids but its culture is pretty "normal" as far as college campuses go. Any smart kid at a state flagship school would honestly feel pretty comfortable at Northwestern. UChicago, on the other hand, is a hard core "learning for the sake of learning" academic campus with a very distinct intellectual and quirky atmosphere. They pride themselves on how brutally tough their academic courseload is for everyone.

As a lifelong Chicagoan, I know tons of people that went to both of these schools. Virtually all of the Northwestern grads *loved* their time on campus in a similar way that Michigan grads talk about Michigan or Notre Dame grads talk about Notre Dame. It's a really balanced school between top academics and social life similar to places like Vanderbilt and Duke. Meanwhile, the UChicago grads often talk about their experience the way that military people talk about boot camp (e.g. a lifechanging experience for a young person, but not necessarily fun). I think UChicago is starting to move away from the hard core nature lately as it has moved up the US News Rankings, but it's still a college with a very distinct personality where you're either going to fit in there or you're going to feel totally out of place.

About 10 years ago, I toured U Chicago with my daughter. I was stunned when I heard their slogan: “where fun comes to die”. She persisted and gained admissions via the early decision process. U Chicago had a weekend get-together for accepted students in February...the weather killed any chance of matriculation. They definitely needed to change their reputation.

One of my nephews applied for admission to UChicago for the fall (he got a deferral). Not sure I would want him to attend if he gets accepted. It's a VERY challenging university.

Challenging can be fine...it depends on the kid.

My issue was that my daughter was already an extremely hard worker, I was encouraging a “work hard, play hard” experience for her undergraduate. Most selective schools need to emphasize that there is an opportunity for balance.

I love Chicago (my father has been a Cubs fan since 1945) and would be thrilled to see my nephew experience living and attending school in the Windy City.

But I just don't know if he would like UofC (with, as you note, the weather being a factor in addition to the overall tough academics).

I trust your daughter found a fine university and was happy there.

Chicago is wonderful. One of my sons lives / works there, so it was a frequent prepandemic destination.

That daughter eventually chose Duke and actually stayed for a year post graduation. Durham is now a great foodie town.

I wish it would have been Northwestern that had de-emphasized sports instead of Chicago. I probably feel the same way about Chicago as I do about Northwestern but at least the University of Chicago has "Chicago" in its name rather than "Northwestern", a school whose name hasn't been geographically accurate since the Louisiana Purchase.

Pittsburgh in the Big 10 definitely erodes some of Penn St’s thunder in later decades but I think they still develop into a solid program.

I’m not sold on the ACC thing. I don’t think Paterno would have bent his knee to basketball centric Tobacco Road and I don’t think the votes are there to admit a rural school that’s bad at basketball.

If Penn St is still Indy in 1989, I think their preference is still the Big 10.

(03-24-2021 03:01 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(03-24-2021 02:18 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-24-2021 01:54 PM)TUowl06 Wrote:  How about if Northwestern and UChicago had merged in 1933? Then UChicago President Robert Hutchins was an extremely unique and ultimately a very influential figure in academia. "The University of Chicago; A History" by John Bowyer us a great read for anyone interested in academia.....

The only two things that Northwestern and UChicago have in common are that they're (1) academically elite schools and (2) in close proximity in the Chicago area.

Otherwise, they're VERY different schools. Northwestern has a preprofessional focus, significant Greek life, and Big Ten sports - in essence, it has extremely smart kids but its culture is pretty "normal" as far as college campuses go. Any smart kid at a state flagship school would honestly feel pretty comfortable at Northwestern. UChicago, on the other hand, is a hard core "learning for the sake of learning" academic campus with a very distinct intellectual and quirky atmosphere. They pride themselves on how brutally tough their academic courseload is for everyone.

As a lifelong Chicagoan, I know tons of people that went to both of these schools. Virtually all of the Northwestern grads *loved* their time on campus in a similar way that Michigan grads talk about Michigan or Notre Dame grads talk about Notre Dame. It's a really balanced school between top academics and social life similar to places like Vanderbilt and Duke. Meanwhile, the UChicago grads often talk about their experience the way that military people talk about boot camp (e.g. a lifechanging experience for a young person, but not necessarily fun). I think UChicago is starting to move away from the hard core nature lately as it has moved up the US News Rankings, but it's still a college with a very distinct personality where you're either going to fit in there or you're going to feel totally out of place.

About 10 years ago, I toured U Chicago with my daughter. I was stunned when I heard their slogan: “where fun comes to die”. She persisted and gained admissions via the early decision process. U Chicago had a weekend get-together for accepted students in February...the weather killed any chance of matriculation. They definitely needed to change their reputation.

I've been lucky enough to be around Patriot League and Ivy League football my entire life which opened my eyes to elite universities at an early age. With that said, UChicago is on a completely different level than all those schools when it comes to academic rigor and quirky campus life. The university has always had a unique perspective/pioneering approach to undergrad and grad curriculum. Students are pushed extremely hard not just in tangible course work but in thought and discourse. Everything is setup to tap into elite levels of critical thinking and research. Students need to be willing and have the capacity to push their mind/thought process in ways most people honestly can't.

While I'm fascinated by UChicago I would never sign up for THAT college lifestyle. I do like the "military" analogy that was used earlier because I believe it fits. The UChicago mission is to reshape students into elite professionals and researchers by extracting every bit of potential they have. The only institutions that seem similar, at least to me, in the manner they accomplish that are the Claremont Colleges; Harvey Mudd and Pomona.

I still love to ponder the hypotheticals had UChicago and Northwestern decided to merge in 1933. Had that happened the course of academic and athletic history in this country would be vastly different imo.