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Razor Ramon Monarch Offline
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Post: #21
RE: The 2021 NCAA tournament thread
(03-23-2021 03:01 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(03-23-2021 02:34 PM)VB Monarch Wrote:  
(03-23-2021 12:38 PM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  
(03-23-2021 11:57 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(03-23-2021 11:46 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  I look for Long to be more like what we hoped Green would be.

Maybe, but he's not really a great ball handler ont he wing. He doesn't turn it over which is good but he also doesn't dribble into good positions and shot very poorly off the dribble. He also shot very poorly from behind the arc. He is a decent defender overall (prolly average in man) but excels at the top of the key in the 1-3-1. He's also a pretty good rebounder.

Im just not sure he spreads the floor enough as a 3...depending on who the other 4 players on the court are.

You make Long sound awful - not a great ball handler, doesn't dribble into good positions, shot poorly off the dribble, shot very poorly behind the arc, only a decent defender overall ....... why is he in the rotation if he is so bad? Is ODU so bad these days that they don't have any better options?

As far as spreading the floor goes, ODU as a team shoots the ball so poorly from behind the arc that I'm not sure they have enough threats outside to adequately spread the floor. Neither their inside game, or their outside game worries opposing coaches very much. Now if they had players like Frank Hassell, Petey Sessoms, Drew Williamson, Mark Poag, and Mike Jones they could force teams to play them honestly.


Are this level player still available at the Mid Major level? Im assuming they are, so who is getting them? Obviously not us.

Remember Frank the Tank finding his game end of his sophmore season? Playing against UVA, all of a sudden this guy is a force! Man that was a thing of beauty. You could see it with your own eyes.

Speaking of Frank the Tank:

Freshman - 10.5 points, 10 rebounds, 1.6 assists, 1.2 steals, 2.5 blocks, 1.9 turnovers per 40 mins.

Soph- 15.9 points, 11.3 rebounds, 1.6 assists, 1.3 steals, 2.0 blocks, 1.9 turnovers

Junior- 15.3 points, 11.1 rebounds, 1.7 assists, 1.4 steals, 1.5 blocks, 2.8 turnovers

Senior- 20.7 points, 12.9 rebounds, 1.5 assists, 1.2 steals, 1.7 blcoks, 2.8 turnovers (unfortunately per possession numbers unavailable)

Compared to:

Freshman- 15 points, 11 rebounds, 0.8 assists, 1 steal, 3 blocks, 2.9 turnovers

Soph- 15.7 points, 11.7 rebounds, 1.2 assists, 1.5 steals, 1.1 blocks, 2.8 turnovers

Junior- 19.5 points, 12.7 rebounds, 1 assists, 2.3 steals, 2.8 blocks, 3.3 turnovers


Not only are players like Frank the Tank available for mid majors, we have one that comparable on our team right now.

You destroy ANY value whatsoever to both analytics and your own very minute amount of credibility with posts like this lol.

More kool-aid jeff? Or is this Wood’s secret handle? Lol
03-23-2021 11:49 PM
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Post: #22
RE: The 2021 NCAA tournament thread
(03-23-2021 05:02 PM)Prideofalion Wrote:  Gerald Lee was far and away the best player on the team that beat Notre Dame and lost to Baylor. Kent Bazemore was probably our second best player on that team. I like Frank, but top 10 Monarch... no way in hell.

Gerald Lee and Kent Bazemore also qualify as consideration for top 10. You can make the argument for any of them. You are comparing Lee the senior and go to guy to Frank the junior who played his role and played it well. If you look at their bodies of work they are close. Both went to 2 tournaments (albeit Lee had a lesser role as a freshman), both were able to dominate games, both were vary consistent upperclassmen. Both were senior leaders on 2 of the best teams in ODU's history. Baze was by far and away the best athlete and had the wow factor. Maybe not quite as consistent as a scorer as the other two, but that's to be expected at his position.

Unless something drastic and unexpected happens next season, Kalu won't be in this conversation. I like Kalu... he is a good player and Monarch and am not disparaging him or the work he is putting in but he is not an all-time great.
03-24-2021 07:51 AM
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monarx Offline
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Post: #23
RE: The 2021 NCAA tournament thread
(03-24-2021 07:51 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(03-23-2021 05:02 PM)Prideofalion Wrote:  Gerald Lee was far and away the best player on the team that beat Notre Dame and lost to Baylor. Kent Bazemore was probably our second best player on that team. I like Frank, but top 10 Monarch... no way in hell.

Gerald Lee and Kent Bazemore also qualify as consideration for top 10. You can make the argument for any of them. You are comparing Lee the senior and go to guy to Frank the junior who played his role and played it well. If you look at their bodies of work they are close. Both went to 2 tournaments (albeit Lee had a lesser role as a freshman), both were able to dominate games, both were vary consistent upperclassmen. Both were senior leaders on 2 of the best teams in ODU's history. Baze was by far and away the best athlete and had the wow factor. Maybe not quite as consistent as a scorer as the other two, but that's to be expected at his position.

Unless something drastic and unexpected happens next season, Kalu won't be in this conversation. I like Kalu... he is a good player and Monarch and am not disparaging him or the work he is putting in but he is not an all-time great.

I love Frank and Kent, but ODU has long history of some great players. I don't think Id put either in our top 10. Kent was a great player for us, but really, he had one outstanding year, and one really good year. What he did have is the athleticism and build to carry his skills over to the NBA where he continued to improve. Im thrilled for him, but for as good as he was at ODU, he is a much better professional player. And thats due to continued hard work. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. Frank would probably make the top 10 big men at ODU, but I just cant see top 10 overall.

Gerald Lee, Alex Loughton, Odell Hodge, Petey Sessoms, Kenny Gattison, Mark West, Twardzick, Wilson Washigton, Ricardo Leonard, Drew Williamson, Trey Freeman... thats 12 Id probably take ahead of either just off the top of my head. No disrespect intended.
(This post was last modified: 03-24-2021 08:45 AM by monarx.)
03-24-2021 08:44 AM
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Gilesfan Online
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Post: #24
RE: The 2021 NCAA tournament thread
Kent Bazemore had 3 very good years at ODU. It was not just scoring, scoring, rebouding, passing, defense, etc.

Hassell had 1 really good year and a decent junior year.

Gerald Lee was the man for 3 straight years. Loughton was the man for 3 straight years. Hodge is probably better than both and was a force each of the 4 (umm 5) years he played. They were probably better than Gattison/West.

Sessoms, Dave T, & Freeman are probably the best guards we have had.

Hassell and Williamson don't belong in the group with these players named.
03-24-2021 09:34 AM
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DaBigBlue Online
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Post: #25
RE: The 2021 NCAA tournament thread
Since this is a NCAA tourney thread. I think you are putting Baze too high, he lost a couple spots when he was shutout in the Butler game. Don't get me wrong, I love the guy. That huge moment was a let down, with one of the best ODU teams.
03-24-2021 09:42 AM
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Post: #26
RE: The 2021 NCAA tournament thread
(03-24-2021 09:42 AM)DaBigBlue Wrote:  Since this is a NCAA tourney thread. I think you are putting Baze too high, he lost a couple spots when he was shutout in the Butler game. Don't get me wrong, I love the guy. That huge moment was a let down, with one of the best ODU teams.

The good thing about Kent was that he helped the team in many ways. Defense, rebounding, passing, and scoring. That obv wasn't a high scoring game for him (6) or the team (58).
03-24-2021 09:49 AM
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mac Offline
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Post: #27
RE: The 2021 NCAA tournament thread
(03-24-2021 08:44 AM)monarx Wrote:  
(03-24-2021 07:51 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(03-23-2021 05:02 PM)Prideofalion Wrote:  Gerald Lee was far and away the best player on the team that beat Notre Dame and lost to Baylor. Kent Bazemore was probably our second best player on that team. I like Frank, but top 10 Monarch... no way in hell.

Gerald Lee and Kent Bazemore also qualify as consideration for top 10. You can make the argument for any of them. You are comparing Lee the senior and go to guy to Frank the junior who played his role and played it well. If you look at their bodies of work they are close. Both went to 2 tournaments (albeit Lee had a lesser role as a freshman), both were able to dominate games, both were vary consistent upperclassmen. Both were senior leaders on 2 of the best teams in ODU's history. Baze was by far and away the best athlete and had the wow factor. Maybe not quite as consistent as a scorer as the other two, but that's to be expected at his position.

Unless something drastic and unexpected happens next season, Kalu won't be in this conversation. I like Kalu... he is a good player and Monarch and am not disparaging him or the work he is putting in but he is not an all-time great.

I love Frank and Kent, but ODU has long history of some great players. I don't think Id put either in our top 10. Kent was a great player for us, but really, he had one outstanding year, and one really good year. What he did have is the athleticism and build to carry his skills over to the NBA where he continued to improve. Im thrilled for him, but for as good as he was at ODU, he is a much better professional player. And thats due to continued hard work. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. Frank would probably make the top 10 big men at ODU, but I just cant see top 10 overall.

Gerald Lee, Alex Loughton, Odell Hodge, Petey Sessoms, Kenny Gattison, Mark West, Twardzick, Wilson Washigton, Ricardo Leonard, Drew Williamson, Trey Freeman... thats 12 Id probably take ahead of either just off the top of my head. No disrespect intended.


And that's the problem with folks who have not seen the greats at ODU from the past. I started watching the Monarchs in the early 70's. Some of the newer guys were real fine players. Top 10, not seeing it although Lee is close. Baze's first two years he was a turnover machine.

We have a former Monarch player doing Monarch games who has had his number retired by both ODU and his NBA team. Another guy who was named 6th man in the NBA one year and averaged over 21 and 10 for his career at ODU. West, Washington, Gatling and others like Copeland and... wait a minute.... WHY ISN"T PETEY SESSOMS NUMBER RETIRED AND HANGING IN THE RAFTERS PLEASE. ( and yes he graduated from ODU too) MAJOR oversight IMO.
03-24-2021 10:14 AM
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mac Offline
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Post: #28
RE: The 2021 NCAA tournament thread
(03-24-2021 09:42 AM)DaBigBlue Wrote:  Since this is a NCAA tourney thread. I think you are putting Baze too high, he lost a couple spots when he was shutout in the Butler game. Don't get me wrong, I love the guy. That huge moment was a let down, with one of the best ODU teams.

And three straight turnovers against Baylor after we had charged back too. I was there, thought we had them and so did many of their fans around us. Hey, it happens, Baylor was pretty good.
03-24-2021 10:16 AM
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Post: #29
RE: The 2021 NCAA tournament thread
Anyone have any suggestions for the name of the soon-to-be split thread discussing Kalu and The Tank?
03-24-2021 10:31 AM
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Post: #30
RE: The 2021 NCAA tournament thread
(03-24-2021 10:16 AM)mac Wrote:  
(03-24-2021 09:42 AM)DaBigBlue Wrote:  Since this is a NCAA tourney thread. I think you are putting Baze too high, he lost a couple spots when he was shutout in the Butler game. Don't get me wrong, I love the guy. That huge moment was a let down, with one of the best ODU teams.

And three straight turnovers against Baylor after we had charged back too. I was there, thought we had them and so did many of their fans around us. Hey, it happens, Baylor was pretty good.

My wife and I were there in New Orleans to see Notre Dame and Baylor play ODU as well Mac. We stayed at the Hampton Inn - walking distance to the French Quarter.
03-24-2021 10:42 AM
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Post: #31
RE: The 2021 NCAA tournament thread
(03-24-2021 10:14 AM)mac Wrote:  
(03-24-2021 08:44 AM)monarx Wrote:  
(03-24-2021 07:51 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(03-23-2021 05:02 PM)Prideofalion Wrote:  Gerald Lee was far and away the best player on the team that beat Notre Dame and lost to Baylor. Kent Bazemore was probably our second best player on that team. I like Frank, but top 10 Monarch... no way in hell.

Gerald Lee and Kent Bazemore also qualify as consideration for top 10. You can make the argument for any of them. You are comparing Lee the senior and go to guy to Frank the junior who played his role and played it well. If you look at their bodies of work they are close. Both went to 2 tournaments (albeit Lee had a lesser role as a freshman), both were able to dominate games, both were vary consistent upperclassmen. Both were senior leaders on 2 of the best teams in ODU's history. Baze was by far and away the best athlete and had the wow factor. Maybe not quite as consistent as a scorer as the other two, but that's to be expected at his position.

Unless something drastic and unexpected happens next season, Kalu won't be in this conversation. I like Kalu... he is a good player and Monarch and am not disparaging him or the work he is putting in but he is not an all-time great.

I love Frank and Kent, but ODU has long history of some great players. I don't think Id put either in our top 10. Kent was a great player for us, but really, he had one outstanding year, and one really good year. What he did have is the athleticism and build to carry his skills over to the NBA where he continued to improve. Im thrilled for him, but for as good as he was at ODU, he is a much better professional player. And thats due to continued hard work. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. Frank would probably make the top 10 big men at ODU, but I just cant see top 10 overall.

Gerald Lee, Alex Loughton, Odell Hodge, Petey Sessoms, Kenny Gattison, Mark West, Twardzick, Wilson Washigton, Ricardo Leonard, Drew Williamson, Trey Freeman... thats 12 Id probably take ahead of either just off the top of my head. No disrespect intended.


And that's the problem with folks who have not seen the greats at ODU from the past. I started watching the Monarchs in the early 70's. Some of the newer guys were real fine players. Top 10, not seeing it although Lee is close. Baze's first two years he was a turnover machine.

We have a former Monarch player doing Monarch games who has had his number retired by both ODU and his NBA team. Another guy who was named 6th man in the NBA one year and averaged over 21 and 10 for his career at ODU. West, Washington, Gatling and others like Copeland and... wait a minute.... WHY ISN"T PETEY SESSOMS NUMBER RETIRED AND HANGING IN THE RAFTERS PLEASE. ( and yes he graduated from ODU too) MAJOR oversight IMO.

Sounds like we have been watching ODU about the same amount of time. I started in the late 60's. I agree about guys like Copeland, and would also add Ronnie Valentine to the mix here.
03-24-2021 10:44 AM
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Post: #32
RE: The 2021 NCAA tournament thread
(03-24-2021 09:34 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Kent Bazemore had 3 very good years at ODU. It was not just scoring, scoring, rebouding, passing, defense, etc.

Hassell had 1 really good year and a decent junior year.

Gerald Lee was the man for 3 straight years. Loughton was the man for 3 straight years. Hodge is probably better than both and was a force each of the 4 (umm 5) years he played. They were probably better than Gattison/West.

Sessoms, Dave T, & Freeman are probably the best guards we have had.

Hassell and Williamson don't belong in the group with these players named.

Petey Sessoms didn't play guard. I believe that he played center at Cradock High School. He played forward at ODU.
03-24-2021 10:49 AM
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Post: #33
RE: The 2021 NCAA tournament thread
(03-24-2021 10:49 AM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  
(03-24-2021 09:34 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Kent Bazemore had 3 very good years at ODU. It was not just scoring, scoring, rebouding, passing, defense, etc.

Hassell had 1 really good year and a decent junior year.

Gerald Lee was the man for 3 straight years. Loughton was the man for 3 straight years. Hodge is probably better than both and was a force each of the 4 (umm 5) years he played. They were probably better than Gattison/West.

Sessoms, Dave T, & Freeman are probably the best guards we have had.

Hassell and Williamson don't belong in the group with these players named.

Petey Sessoms didn't play guard. I believe that he played center at Cradock High School. He played forward at ODU.

Wing player...whatever. Baze was a guard/wing player as well that often ran the point.

Sessoms, Dave T, and Freeman are probably the best *non big players* we have ever had.
03-24-2021 10:52 AM
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Post: #34
RE: The 2021 NCAA tournament thread
(03-24-2021 10:31 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  Anyone have any suggestions for the name of the soon-to-be split thread discussing Kalu and The Tank?

"Garbage Points in the Paint: Monsters of the Put-Back"
03-24-2021 11:49 AM
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Post: #35
RE: The 2021 NCAA tournament thread
(03-24-2021 10:31 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  Anyone have any suggestions for the name of the soon-to-be split thread discussing Kalu and The Tank?

"Moved post about Post Moves" ?
03-24-2021 12:18 PM
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Post: #36
RE: The 2021 NCAA tournament thread
(03-24-2021 11:49 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  
(03-24-2021 10:31 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  Anyone have any suggestions for the name of the soon-to-be split thread discussing Kalu and The Tank?

"Garbage Points in the Paint: Monsters of the Put-Back"

"Let's just get back to talking about firing all our coaches" or "I wonder what the rhombus thinks"
03-24-2021 12:20 PM
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Post: #37
RE: Moved Posts about Post Moves
(03-24-2021 12:18 PM)Blue_Trombone Wrote:  
(03-24-2021 10:31 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  Anyone have any suggestions for the name of the soon-to-be split thread discussing Kalu and The Tank?

"Moved post about Post Moves" ?

Winner winner, chicken dinner. Thanks all for the submissions.
(This post was last modified: 03-24-2021 02:22 PM by ODUDrunkard13.)
03-24-2021 12:37 PM
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DaBigBlue Online
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Post: #38
RE: Moved Posts about Post Moves
(03-23-2021 03:52 PM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  
(03-23-2021 03:47 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Actually, I showed what the numbers were.

And as a junior, Kalu played 2 and a half minutes less per game than hassell.

FWIW, while Kalu fouls too often, he's also a very good defensive player, giving up .8 ppp. On post ups, he gave up .514 PPP. Im surprised players don't just score on him at will.

I'm not surprised. ODU hasn't been to the NCAA or NIT Tournaments while Kalu has been here to play against the big conference schools that have centers that would. Playing a lot of CAA, MEAC, and CUSA schools is not the strongest of tests to judge a player by.

What...he played 10 minutes in the 2019 NCAAs vs Perdue, was the 5th leading scorer. With mids, if you want a run in the tourney you need senior leadership. The bad is now that we have free agency it's going to be harder to keep teams together.
03-24-2021 02:17 PM
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Post: #39
RE: Moved Posts about Post Moves
(03-24-2021 10:52 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(03-24-2021 10:49 AM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  
(03-24-2021 09:34 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Kent Bazemore had 3 very good years at ODU. It was not just scoring, scoring, rebouding, passing, defense, etc.

Hassell had 1 really good year and a decent junior year.

Gerald Lee was the man for 3 straight years. Loughton was the man for 3 straight years. Hodge is probably better than both and was a force each of the 4 (umm 5) years he played. They were probably better than Gattison/West.

Sessoms, Dave T, & Freeman are probably the best guards we have had.

Hassell and Williamson don't belong in the group with these players named.

Petey Sessoms didn't play guard. I believe that he played center at Cradock High School. He played forward at ODU.

Wing player...whatever. Baze was a guard/wing player as well that often ran the point.

Sessoms, Dave T, and Freeman are probably the best *non big players* we have ever had.

See, this is what you do. You make a comment about something like Sessoms being a "guard", get corrected on your incorrect statement, then act like what you said was somehow accurate anyway by saying "wing player ... whatever" and attempt to drag Bazemore into it by saying that he was a guard/wing player (which is a different player and no one is disputing that he was those things).

I have my doubts that you ever saw Ronnie Valentine play in high school (Norfolk Catholic) or at ODU. I saw him at both places. If you had seen him you might want to reconsider your best "non big players" to either substitute him in there or at least expand the list to include him. AC Carver would be another solid candidate to consider as well. If limiting it to just 3 people the only lock there I would give you would be Twardzik. I never saw Harry Lozon play and FWIW he too might be a viable candidate.

Also, keep in mind that Sessoms and Valentine are both 6'-7" which qualifies them to be considered as "big players" in the Jeff Jones era where he has had players that size and smaller playing center.
03-24-2021 02:24 PM
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Post: #40
RE: Moved Posts about Post Moves
(03-24-2021 02:17 PM)DaBigBlue Wrote:  
(03-23-2021 03:52 PM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  
(03-23-2021 03:47 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Actually, I showed what the numbers were.

And as a junior, Kalu played 2 and a half minutes less per game than hassell.

FWIW, while Kalu fouls too often, he's also a very good defensive player, giving up .8 ppp. On post ups, he gave up .514 PPP. Im surprised players don't just score on him at will.

I'm not surprised. ODU hasn't been to the NCAA or NIT Tournaments while Kalu has been here to play against the big conference schools that have centers that would. Playing a lot of CAA, MEAC, and CUSA schools is not the strongest of tests to judge a player by.

What...he played 10 minutes in the 2019 NCAAs vs Perdue, was the 5th leading scorer. With mids, if you want a run in the tourney you need senior leadership. The bad is now that we have free agency it's going to be harder to keep teams together.

Yes, you're right. I had forgotten that he came in and made a few quick baskets during that game.

My point (and opinion) was that Frank had many more games against tougher teams - CAA was a tough league with VCU, GMU, UNCW when they were good, Northeastern, better OOC schedule with teams like Georgetown, post season tournaments - than ODU and Kalu has had in recent seasons which factors into any individual statistical comparisons between the two players. Also, the teams were set up differently. Frank had a stronger supporting cast in my opinion.
03-24-2021 02:34 PM
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