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What is the future of the Southland Conference?
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Post: #61
RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
A conference must have 6 teams in the D2 sports that use AQ. Football does not use an AQ format. The LSC does have 8 football teams but they have a very difficult time filling the 11-game schedule, 4 OOC games. The GAC, MIAA, and NSIC all play conference-only schedules and each team in the RMAC has only 2 OOC games to fill. This is one of the reasons the LSC has a scheduling agreement with the GNAC. D2 also has a pre-set regional structure and places top importance on in-region games. For football only, the LSC is in Super Region 4 with the GNAC, NSIC, and RMAC.
04-12-2021 03:14 PM
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RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
UT-Tyler might be worried of being left behind that they might finally pull the trigger of adding football.
04-13-2021 02:55 AM
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Post: #63
RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
(04-13-2021 02:55 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  UT-Tyler might be worried of being left behind that they might finally pull the trigger of adding football.

Both UT Tyler (DII) and UT Dallas (DIII) could be successful at the DI level. UT Dallas has more upside but they aren't too interested in leaving DIII.
04-13-2021 10:59 AM
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johnintx Offline
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Post: #64
RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
(04-13-2021 10:59 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  
(04-13-2021 02:55 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  UT-Tyler might be worried of being left behind that they might finally pull the trigger of adding football.

Both UT Tyler (DII) and UT Dallas (DIII) could be successful at the DI level. UT Dallas has more upside but they aren't too interested in leaving DIII.

UT Tyler is finishing their transition from Division III. They only became a four-year school in 1998. They were founded in 1971 as a senior-level institution (3rd and 4th years). They have a nice but small basketball arena that seats 2,000. UT Tyler does not currently have football, but Tyler does have a 10,000 seat high school stadium. The Tyler area could support an FCS-level football program, if UT Tyler wanted to eventually upgrade. In the post-Covid era, though, that probably isn't on the table.

UT Dallas seems like a fish out of water in Division III (at least in Texas), as they are a 29,000-student public school founded by the founders of Texas Instruments. It is a highly respected research institution. Their specialty is STEM, and they are proud of their eSports and chess teams (per Wikipedia). It would compete for attention and dollars with the other D-I schools in the Metroplex. I'm not sure if there is much demand for UT-Dallas athletics at a higher level. Its profile doesn't lend itself to much more than Division III athletics.
04-16-2021 10:46 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
(04-16-2021 10:46 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(04-13-2021 10:59 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  
(04-13-2021 02:55 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  UT-Tyler might be worried of being left behind that they might finally pull the trigger of adding football.

Both UT Tyler (DII) and UT Dallas (DIII) could be successful at the DI level. UT Dallas has more upside but they aren't too interested in leaving DIII.

UT Tyler is finishing their transition from Division III. They only became a four-year school in 1998. They were founded in 1971 as a senior-level institution (3rd and 4th years). They have a nice but small basketball arena that seats 2,000. UT Tyler does not currently have football, but Tyler does have a 10,000 seat high school stadium. The Tyler area could support an FCS-level football program, if UT Tyler wanted to eventually upgrade. In the post-Covid era, though, that probably isn't on the table.

UT Dallas seems like a fish out of water in Division III (at least in Texas), as they are a 29,000-student public school founded by the founders of Texas Instruments. It is a highly respected research institution. Their specialty is STEM, and they are proud of their eSports and chess teams (per Wikipedia). It would compete for attention and dollars with the other D-I schools in the Metroplex. I'm not sure if there is much demand for UT-Dallas athletics at a higher level. Its profile doesn't lend itself to much more than Division III athletics.


Tyler left, UTD put out a feeler that they are looking into D2. They really is too large for D3 as a school.
04-17-2021 06:45 AM
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RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
(04-17-2021 06:45 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(04-16-2021 10:46 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(04-13-2021 10:59 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  
(04-13-2021 02:55 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  UT-Tyler might be worried of being left behind that they might finally pull the trigger of adding football.

Both UT Tyler (DII) and UT Dallas (DIII) could be successful at the DI level. UT Dallas has more upside but they aren't too interested in leaving DIII.

UT Tyler is finishing their transition from Division III. They only became a four-year school in 1998. They were founded in 1971 as a senior-level institution (3rd and 4th years). They have a nice but small basketball arena that seats 2,000. UT Tyler does not currently have football, but Tyler does have a 10,000 seat high school stadium. The Tyler area could support an FCS-level football program, if UT Tyler wanted to eventually upgrade. In the post-Covid era, though, that probably isn't on the table.

UT Dallas seems like a fish out of water in Division III (at least in Texas), as they are a 29,000-student public school founded by the founders of Texas Instruments. It is a highly respected research institution. Their specialty is STEM, and they are proud of their eSports and chess teams (per Wikipedia). It would compete for attention and dollars with the other D-I schools in the Metroplex. I'm not sure if there is much demand for UT-Dallas athletics at a higher level. Its profile doesn't lend itself to much more than Division III athletics.


Tyler left, UTD put out a feeler that they are looking into D2. They really is too large for D3 as a school.

I don’t think either UTD or UT Tyler would be considered by the Southland. If anything, I think the Southland will go for the Florida D2 school out of Pensacola. Texas A&M Commerce will turn them down IMO.
04-17-2021 07:19 AM
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Post: #67
RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
(04-17-2021 06:45 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(04-16-2021 10:46 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(04-13-2021 10:59 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  
(04-13-2021 02:55 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  UT-Tyler might be worried of being left behind that they might finally pull the trigger of adding football.

Both UT Tyler (DII) and UT Dallas (DIII) could be successful at the DI level. UT Dallas has more upside but they aren't too interested in leaving DIII.

UT Tyler is finishing their transition from Division III. They only became a four-year school in 1998. They were founded in 1971 as a senior-level institution (3rd and 4th years). They have a nice but small basketball arena that seats 2,000. UT Tyler does not currently have football, but Tyler does have a 10,000 seat high school stadium. The Tyler area could support an FCS-level football program, if UT Tyler wanted to eventually upgrade. In the post-Covid era, though, that probably isn't on the table.

UT Dallas seems like a fish out of water in Division III (at least in Texas), as they are a 29,000-student public school founded by the founders of Texas Instruments. It is a highly respected research institution. Their specialty is STEM, and they are proud of their eSports and chess teams (per Wikipedia). It would compete for attention and dollars with the other D-I schools in the Metroplex. I'm not sure if there is much demand for UT-Dallas athletics at a higher level. Its profile doesn't lend itself to much more than Division III athletics.


Tyler left, UTD put out a feeler that they are looking into D2. They really is too large for D3 as a school.

NYU has a lot more students than UTD and they are Division III.

There are a lot DIII schools who fit UTDs aspirations academically though not many in their conference but Division II isn’t going to change that.

Scholarship athletics isn’t going to change their status as a selective college with high research activity.

It’s like the situation with UT Arlington and football, UTA has grown dramatically and improved its academic standing since football was dropped. There’s not a lot of incentive to spend the money needed to add it.
04-18-2021 04:30 AM
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RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
(04-16-2021 10:46 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(04-13-2021 10:59 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  
(04-13-2021 02:55 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  UT-Tyler might be worried of being left behind that they might finally pull the trigger of adding football.

Both UT Tyler (DII) and UT Dallas (DIII) could be successful at the DI level. UT Dallas has more upside but they aren't too interested in leaving DIII.

UT Tyler is finishing their transition from Division III. They only became a four-year school in 1998. They were founded in 1971 as a senior-level institution (3rd and 4th years). They have a nice but small basketball arena that seats 2,000. UT Tyler does not currently have football, but Tyler does have a 10,000 seat high school stadium. The Tyler area could support an FCS-level football program, if UT Tyler wanted to eventually upgrade. In the post-Covid era, though, that probably isn't on the table.

UT Dallas seems like a fish out of water in Division III (at least in Texas), as they are a 29,000-student public school founded by the founders of Texas Instruments. It is a highly respected research institution. Their specialty is STEM, and they are proud of their eSports and chess teams (per Wikipedia). It would compete for attention and dollars with the other D-I schools in the Metroplex. I'm not sure if there is much demand for UT-Dallas athletics at a higher level. Its profile doesn't lend itself to much more than Division III athletics.

What does all of this have to do with the Southland Conference?
04-18-2021 01:29 PM
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RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
(03-30-2021 06:28 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(03-30-2021 05:51 PM)TexasTerror Wrote:  There’s some notion that the WAC may need to add a McNeese State or possibly an Incarnate Word (if there was greater desire to keep things in Texas) due to the lack of readiness on the part of the Division II teams.

If that came to pass, the Southland would really be up against it.

Southland will add at minimum two teams in coming months - though could be troubling if institutions aren’t WAC ready though presumably the WAC comes with a higher price tag and different expectations than the SLC

I would be surprised if the WAC doesn’t add West Texas A&M. FB stadium, BB stadium, fan support are all there. D2 Final 4.

Also geography and western focus. And Abilene Christian and Tarleton State rivalries.
(This post was last modified: 04-18-2021 01:39 PM by SMUstang.)
04-18-2021 01:33 PM
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RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
What realistically becomes the Southland's options if none of the Lone Star Conference schools are willing to move?

The less "smoke" we are seeing from WTAMU or any of the others related to moves, the more I think there is actually some hesitancy on the part of the Division II schools to make a move up. Do they particularly not care for the Southland option? Has the Southland just not approached them while they continue their SWAC fantasy at this point? Or are they legitimately standing still in the LSC?

I know we're probably about two months from having clarity on this subject, but I just do not see any GSC schools sniffing the Southland out beyond perhaps the Mississippi schools, who are not the financially best suited schools even in the GSC for a Division I moveup.
04-20-2021 09:08 AM
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RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
(04-20-2021 09:08 AM)TexasTerror Wrote:  What realistically becomes the Southland's options if none of the Lone Star Conference schools are willing to move?

The less "smoke" we are seeing from WTAMU or any of the others related to moves, the more I think there is actually some hesitancy on the part of the Division II schools to make a move up. Do they particularly not care for the Southland option? Has the Southland just not approached them while they continue their SWAC fantasy at this point? Or are they legitimately standing still in the LSC?

I know we're probably about two months from having clarity on this subject, but I just do not see any GSC schools sniffing the Southland out beyond perhaps the Mississippi schools, who are not the financially best suited schools even in the GSC for a Division I moveup.

I’m guessing that the Lone Star schools are waiting out Covid before they make a big decision. They may also be waiting to make sure no one else defects.
04-20-2021 09:24 AM
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RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
(04-20-2021 09:24 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(04-20-2021 09:08 AM)TexasTerror Wrote:  What realistically becomes the Southland's options if none of the Lone Star Conference schools are willing to move?

The less "smoke" we are seeing from WTAMU or any of the others related to moves, the more I think there is actually some hesitancy on the part of the Division II schools to make a move up. Do they particularly not care for the Southland option? Has the Southland just not approached them while they continue their SWAC fantasy at this point? Or are they legitimately standing still in the LSC?

I know we're probably about two months from having clarity on this subject, but I just do not see any GSC schools sniffing the Southland out beyond perhaps the Mississippi schools, who are not the financially best suited schools even in the GSC for a Division I moveup.

I’m guessing that the Lone Star schools are waiting out Covid before they make a big decision. They may also be waiting to make sure no one else defects.

Agree

It only takes one for everyone to start moving
04-20-2021 10:07 AM
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RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
(04-20-2021 10:07 AM)solohawks Wrote:  
(04-20-2021 09:24 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(04-20-2021 09:08 AM)TexasTerror Wrote:  What realistically becomes the Southland's options if none of the Lone Star Conference schools are willing to move?

The less "smoke" we are seeing from WTAMU or any of the others related to moves, the more I think there is actually some hesitancy on the part of the Division II schools to make a move up. Do they particularly not care for the Southland option? Has the Southland just not approached them while they continue their SWAC fantasy at this point? Or are they legitimately standing still in the LSC?

I know we're probably about two months from having clarity on this subject, but I just do not see any GSC schools sniffing the Southland out beyond perhaps the Mississippi schools, who are not the financially best suited schools even in the GSC for a Division I moveup.

I’m guessing that the Lone Star schools are waiting out Covid before they make a big decision. They may also be waiting to make sure no one else defects.

Agree

It only takes one for everyone to start moving

Right—and some of those schools may have made the calculation that they are better off staying in a D2 conference with 8 football schools, but if that number falls below 8, they need to seek out the Southland or WAC where their football programs would be safer.

Honestly, with the Southland, I think they either add 0 Lone Star teams or 3–either no one moves, or everyone rushes to get out.
04-20-2021 10:53 AM
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RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
It just seems crazy to me that WTA&M isn't all about the WAC.

They aren't going to get a better geographical fit
04-20-2021 10:58 AM
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RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
(04-20-2021 10:58 AM)solohawks Wrote:  It just seems crazy to me that WTA&M isn't all about the WAC.

They aren't going to get a better geographical fit

It might be simply that they are not losing money at the D2 level, but they would be at the D1 level (more scholarships and bigger staff). It costs a lot (nearly $2 million) to upgrade. Plus it is a long trip to Seattle and even Utah and Beaumont from Amarillo for their Olympic sports. Think like a university president.
(This post was last modified: 04-20-2021 11:32 AM by SMUstang.)
04-20-2021 11:23 AM
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RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
(04-20-2021 11:23 AM)SMUstang Wrote:  
(04-20-2021 10:58 AM)solohawks Wrote:  It just seems crazy to me that WTA&M isn't all about the WAC.

They aren't going to get a better geographical fit

It might be simply that they are not losing money at the D2 level, but they would be at the D1 level (more scholarships and bigger staff). It costs a lot (nearly $2 million) to upgrade. Plus it is a long trip to Seattle and even Utah and Beaumont from Amarillo for their Olympic sports. Think like a university president.

Yep. Buses across Texas > flights throughout the West, especially for multiple sports. Plus, there is the transition period to D-I, where recruiting is challenging at best. When moving up a classification, a school is basically restarting its athletic program.

In west Texas, nearby is a relative term, but they still have neighbors in the LSC. Midwestern State, UT-Permian Basin, and Eastern New Mexico are reasonably close. Lubbock Christian is also close, but doesn't have football. In the WAC, Abilene Christian and Tarleton (former conference foes) are comparable bus trips, while all other travel is to the other part of Texas or to the western half of the US. The Southland is concentrated in Louisiana and the other part of Texas. Unless some of their friends join them, their closest games would be in either Houston or Natchitoches.

Plus, they are a public institution, part of the Texas A&M system. As a public school, they are sensitive to political issues. If the politicians don't want them to go, they won't. If they need to protect other state schools (even those not in the A&M system), they'll consider it. With that said, Tarleton is an A&M school and has already made the move.

I do agree with the other posters that WTAMU needs to consider itself first. They're the only game in town in Amarillo, and they can make this work. They've been D-I before, though it's been almost 40 years. With that in mind, there is institutional memory passed down from administrators and supporters. They may believe it's better to be a big fish in a small pond than to be a minnow at the bottom of D-I.
(This post was last modified: 04-20-2021 11:25 PM by johnintx.)
04-20-2021 12:49 PM
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RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
(04-20-2021 11:23 AM)SMUstang Wrote:  
(04-20-2021 10:58 AM)solohawks Wrote:  It just seems crazy to me that WTA&M isn't all about the WAC.

They aren't going to get a better geographical fit

It might be simply that they are not losing money at the D2 level, but they would be at the D1 level (more scholarships and bigger staff). It costs a lot (nearly $2 million) to upgrade. Plus it is a long trip to Seattle and even Utah and Beaumont from Amarillo for their Olympic sports. Think like a university president.

True...my thought process is that there will be no better D1 pond to play in than what the WAC is offering

If they just don't care or feel like it's not worth it that's a completely valid viewpoint
04-20-2021 12:56 PM
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RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
(04-20-2021 12:49 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(04-20-2021 11:23 AM)SMUstang Wrote:  
(04-20-2021 10:58 AM)solohawks Wrote:  It just seems crazy to me that WTA&M isn't all about the WAC.

They aren't going to get a better geographical fit

It might be simply that they are not losing money at the D2 level, but they would be at the D1 level (more scholarships and bigger staff). It costs a lot (nearly $2 million) to upgrade. Plus it is a long trip to Seattle and even Utah and Beaumont from Amarillo for their Olympic sports. Think like a university president.

Yep. Buses across Texas > flights throughout the West, especially for multiple sports. Plus, there is the transition period to D-I, where recruiting is challenging at best. When moving up a classification, a school is basically restarting its athletic program.

In west Texas, nearby is a relative term, but they still have neighbors in the LSC. Midwestern State, UT-Permian Basin, and Eastern New Mexico are reasonably close. In the WAC, Abilene Christian and Tarleton (former conference foes) are comparable bus trips, while all other travel is to the other part of Texas or to the western half of the US. The Southland is concentrated in Louisiana and the other part of Texas. Unless some of their friends join them, their closest games would be in either Houston or Natchitoches.

Plus, they are a public institution, part of the Texas A&M system. As a public school, they are sensitive to political issues. If the politicians don't want them to go, they won't. If they need to protect other state schools (even those not in the A&M system), they'll consider it. With that said, Tarleton is an A&M school and has already made the move.

I do agree with the other posters that WTAMU needs to consider itself first. They're the only game in town in Amarillo, and they can make this work. They've been D-I before, though it's been almost 40 years. With that in mind, there is institutional memory passed down from administrators and supporters. They may believe it's bigger to be a big fish in a small pond than to be a minnow at the bottom of D-I.

Great points
04-20-2021 12:56 PM
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RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
(04-20-2021 12:49 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(04-20-2021 11:23 AM)SMUstang Wrote:  
(04-20-2021 10:58 AM)solohawks Wrote:  It just seems crazy to me that WTA&M isn't all about the WAC.

They aren't going to get a better geographical fit

It might be simply that they are not losing money at the D2 level, but they would be at the D1 level (more scholarships and bigger staff). It costs a lot (nearly $2 million) to upgrade. Plus it is a long trip to Seattle and even Utah and Beaumont from Amarillo for their Olympic sports. Think like a university president.

Yep. Buses across Texas > flights throughout the West, especially for multiple sports. Plus, there is the transition period to D-I, where recruiting is challenging at best. When moving up a classification, a school is basically restarting its athletic program.

In west Texas, nearby is a relative term, but they still have neighbors in the LSC. Midwestern State, UT-Permian Basin, and Eastern New Mexico are reasonably close. In the WAC, Abilene Christian and Tarleton (former conference foes) are comparable bus trips, while all other travel is to the other part of Texas or to the western half of the US. The Southland is concentrated in Louisiana and the other part of Texas. Unless some of their friends join them, their closest games would be in either Houston or Natchitoches.

Plus, they are a public institution, part of the Texas A&M system. As a public school, they are sensitive to political issues. If the politicians don't want them to go, they won't. If they need to protect other state schools (even those not in the A&M system), they'll consider it. With that said, Tarleton is an A&M school and has already made the move.

I do agree with the other posters that WTAMU needs to consider itself first. They're the only game in town in Amarillo, and they can make this work. They've been D-I before, though it's been almost 40 years. With that in mind, there is institutional memory passed down from administrators and supporters. They may believe it's bigger to be a big fish in a small pond than to be a minnow at the bottom of D-I.

Points for an administrator to consider. Moving up is not always the thing to do.
(This post was last modified: 04-21-2021 09:30 AM by SMUstang.)
04-20-2021 02:22 PM
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RE: What is the future of the Southland Conference?
(04-20-2021 02:22 PM)SMUstang Wrote:  
(04-20-2021 12:49 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(04-20-2021 11:23 AM)SMUstang Wrote:  
(04-20-2021 10:58 AM)solohawks Wrote:  It just seems crazy to me that WTA&M isn't all about the WAC.

They aren't going to get a better geographical fit

It might be simply that they are not losing money at the D2 level, but they would be at the D1 level (more scholarships and bigger staff). It costs a lot (nearly $2 million) to upgrade. Plus it is a long trip to Seattle and even Utah and Beaumont from Amarillo for their Olympic sports. Think like a university president.

Yep. Buses across Texas > flights throughout the West, especially for multiple sports. Plus, there is the transition period to D-I, where recruiting is challenging at best. When moving up a classification, a school is basically restarting its athletic program.

In west Texas, nearby is a relative term, but they still have neighbors in the LSC. Midwestern State, UT-Permian Basin, and Eastern New Mexico are reasonably close. In the WAC, Abilene Christian and Tarleton (former conference foes) are comparable bus trips, while all other travel is to the other part of Texas or to the western half of the US. The Southland is concentrated in Louisiana and the other part of Texas. Unless some of their friends join them, their closest games would be in either Houston or Natchitoches.

Plus, they are a public institution, part of the Texas A&M system. As a public school, they are sensitive to political issues. If the politicians don't want them to go, they won't. If they need to protect other state schools (even those not in the A&M system), they'll consider it. With that said, Tarleton is an A&M school and has already made the move.

I do agree with the other posters that WTAMU needs to consider itself first. They're the only game in town in Amarillo, and they can make this work. They've been D-I before, though it's been almost 40 years. With that in mind, there is institutional memory passed down from administrators and supporters. They may believe it's bigger to be a big fish in a small pond than to be a minnow at the bottom of D-I.

Points for an administrator to consider. Moving up is not always the thing to do.

The pandemic hurts the D2 schools big time. The AD of West Texas A&M said in September that the D2 is drying up with competition and money. I think they would come out strong joining the WAC in all three money sports than they would do in D2.
04-22-2021 03:02 AM
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